NationStates

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:05 pm**

I know. It's shocking. Just goes to show that the extent of their power over the region is truly obscene.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:13 pm**

North East Somerset wrote:I mean it's not complicated. It's IC if the content of the "prolonged & sustained flaming and baiting" is an IC matter. Like the example you just gave about how Tim treated new TSPers running for Office, sounds like classic IC politics by very definition.

But you can't have the Admin team taking IC flaming and baiting, and saying it is OOC harassment and thus defaming someone's RL character, over their actions in a game.

This is demeaning real harassment. Tim as a player can be be my worst enemy in this game, but I can have respect for him as a person. You just don't seem to fundamentally get it.

Well, no, it apparently is pretty complicated. Because there's only one Tim. The real person. Who spent months, along with Escade, targeting specific people to the point where one quit the game and several more took long leaves of absences. Neither were roleplaying their attacks. They didn't create a character, construct a setting, develop a plot, and it just happened to be a story of hostility. Their targets weren't just playing along and continuing the roleplay narrative. This IC/OOC distinction, as laid out this way, is stupid. People are responsible for their actions whether or not they're attacking somebody for an NS-political position, or they're attacking them for personal reasons.

What's demeaning about this whole dramatic saga that you guys want to build about the bans, is that there were and are very real people on the other end of Tim's and Escade's behavior. Their experiences have been constantly dismissed by every one of you.

Definition of harass
harassed; harassing; harasses
transitive verb
b (2) : to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct

What part of what's been described does not fit that definition? Harassment is the word at least one complaint specifically used to describe their experience. But you, and pretty much everyone in GP who has commented thus far, is so twisted up about the word. Your definition of harassment is wrong, plain and simple. When people feel so regularly attacked in a hostile environment, even over "IC" things like in-game politics, to the point where they quit the game or take breaks citing mental stress and losing all enjoyment for playing, they are experiencing harassment. What is hard to understand about that? Are you going to tell all these people and Moderators that they're "demeaning real harassment" in all these mod reports? No, because we all know what this is.

It's not my problem that Gameplay sees the word "harassment" and thinks "evil, immoral, disgusting, perverted behavior." Like I said before, that's on you. Your hangup doesn't change the definition of a word, and it doesn't get to invalidate those who dealt with it.

Here's the official NationStates rules saying the same thing I've been saying:

One Stop Rules Shop wrote:Flame/Threats: Personal attacks against other players, expressed via OOC (out-of-character) comments; insults, swearing and anything posted with intent to offend. In-character remarks can be interpreted this way as well; watch what you post if other posters are unaware you're not serious. Erudite slams while maintaining a veneer of politeness can also be considered flaming. Repeated instances of flaming directed at the same player can be considered harassment, a more serious offense.

Are you going to accuse [violet] of "demeaning real harassment?" Do I need to go on?

Misconduct can run the gamut from barely actionable to real-life criminal. Everyone involved in this whole thing is a grown ass adult, capable of understanding granularity of language. What went on was harassment-- repeated instances of flaming directed at the same player can be considered harassment. Is it something the entirety of GP needs to get involved with, and shun those players as if they committed unforgivable sins? No, and again, everyone here knows that. If it was, a) they would've been banned permanently, and b) admins across the game would've received a dossier and calls to enact a unified ban, just like we've all done with previous cases of extremely problematic behavior.

So stop trying to make this something it's not. At this point, if you have anything else to say, formally contact TSP admins over Discord. We're applying the same rules to our community that NS applies here. We'll be happy to explain everything again.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:31 pm**

What part of “any accusation of harassment is an accusation of a serious, bad thing that needs proof behind it” isn’t getting through to your team?

Edit: or, for that matter, what part of “the warning process for things should be proper,” or “the specific people who were literally punished equally alongside those banned briefly prior for the same things, and who the banned have accused of the same things, should not be the ones executing and defending the ban” are unclear as well?

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:59 pm**

I imagine there wasn't an elaborate explainer on the decision originally because it was obvious to TSPers what the admins were discussing - people were leaving TSP over Tim/Escade's behaviour. It's been an ongoing point of contention for months now. Everyone has just been waiting for the hammer to come down. Which is why it's been NS Gameplay that has reacted incredulously to the decision, not TSP.

Ultimately, TSPs' admins serve TSP and its community, not NS Gameplay. I think you're seeing a slow response here from admins because there's not much interest in trying to placate a peanut gallery they have no obligation to placate. Very few of you are really even remotely involved with TSP, you just chirp at it when there's a "controversy." Others here are just being talked up and misled by Tim/Escade because that's the central thrust of their strategy for responding to being banned: getting you guys to lobby and overwhelm the site admins on their behalf for *checks notes* enforcing forum and community rules.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:04 pm**

That’s not a great reasoning - people have been leaving over Glen’s behavior for years.

Tim and Escade have their claims, but those claims have no bearing on most of the improper admin practices at play.

...and those practices would draw criticism anywhere. Historically, far *more* than this elsewhere.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:27 pm**

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:That’s not a great reasoning - people have been leaving over Glen’s behavior for years.

He's right. Anything Tim and Escade may have done (we still don't know since no evidence has been presented to literally anyone) TSP forum administration have done worse. Far more insidious things. Yet they still refuse to hold themselves accountable. The level of hypocrisy they have achieved is truly astounding.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:36 pm**

Unibot III wrote:Very few of you are really even remotely involved with TSP, you just chirp at it when there's a "controversy."

How involved are you with TSP at the moment, Unibot?

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:20 pm**

If there are actual admin, who I haven't already talked or am talking to, who need any evidence for the allegations I have made, please DM me on Discord.

Tim was preparing to counterfile and told admin (Tsunamy) that he would do so and we were summarily banned right after that so we couldn't collate all the evidence. However, for those with access to Legislator Lounge, if the evidence hasn't been meddled with, the rest of it should be there as well. In fact, I had begun publicly putting together things the weekend right before I was banned so we all know the goal of the ban was to prevent us from even being able to make a case. Still I have many things saved that support any statements I have made.

I'm not surprised that some of the players, generally players I've been on the opposing side of, like NES and Souls make the most sensible posts here and are classy enough not to conflate the OOC and IC. If it was a clearly stated political ban, which it is, we could rail against it IC. It's the attempt to use OOC harassment to describe political IC feuding as well as the consistent egocentric and megalomaniac behavior exhibited by TSP administration that is truly disturbing here.

TSP administration answer to no one but themselves and cannot be trusted for anything but the use of moderation as a political weapon.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:20 pm**

RiderSyl wrote:How involved are you with TSP at the moment, Unibot?

Enough to get Tim and Escade banned for protesting it, apparently.

Seriously though, this site needs a popcorn eating smiley.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:22 pm**

Unibot III wrote:I imagine there wasn't an elaborate explainer on the decision originally because it was obvious to TSPers what the admins were discussing - people were leaving TSP over Tim/Escade's behaviour. It's been an ongoing point of contention for months now.

You sure seem to be knowledgeable about a region you're supposedly banned from, Uni :roll:

I'd ask if TSP admin were comfortable with having someone shunned from everywhere go to bat for them like this, but of course they are.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:36 pm**

Blight-Bane wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:How involved are you with TSP at the moment, Unibot?

Enough to get Tim and Escade banned for protesting it, apparently. Seriously though, this site needs a popcorn eating smiley.

ZetaBoards had one... Fuck you, Tapatalk.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:50 pm**

Vulturret wrote:
Blight-Bane wrote:ZetaBoards had one... Fuck you, Tapatalk.

has a large and extensive collection of smileys.

Posted: **Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:44 pm**

Blight-Bane wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:How involved are you with TSP at the moment, Unibot?

Enough to get Tim and Escade banned for protesting it, apparently. Seriously though, this site needs a popcorn eating smiley.

Dude shares a private server with TSP's admin, so... :unsure:

Posted: **Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:29 am**

Hi Escade. I’m an admin asking for your evidence that I ever said Tim “comes from trash.” Because not only do I not recall every doing so (and neither does anyone else?), but searching every public *and* private are I post in for the word “trash” does not yield what you’ve accused me of saying.

For example, here are the results of searching “trash” and my Discord handle in the TSP server: https://i.imgur.com/MGMWWZs_d.jpg?maxwi ... ity=medium

Posted: **Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:52 am**

It's kinda ironic that you're demanding evidence when you lot have refused to give any yourselves... Or is that the point?

Posted: **Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:59 am**

RiderSyl wrote:
Unibot III wrote:Very few of you are really even remotely involved with TSP, you just chirp at it when there's a "controversy."

How involved are you with TSP at the moment, Unibot?

None, except that I’ve overheard the frustrations of players for month now with the flamebaiting and harassment. I think it’s an honest observation to say that the original admin decision was written with TSP not Gameplay in mind as its target audience - hence the confusion.

Most of my chats with TSPers involve the Canadian Constitution or speculating about the Democratic primaries. I’m increasingly disillusioned at what’s become of NS. There’s no cabal nor was I involved with any administrative decision.

Hope that clarifies things!

Posted: **Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:00 am**

Consular wrote:It's kinda ironic that you're demanding evidence when you lot have refused to give any yourselves... Or is that the point?

Perhaps the point is to see how hyprocital Gameplay can be?

Posted: **Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:03 am**

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Consular wrote:It's kinda ironic that you're demanding evidence when you lot have refused to give any yourselves... Or is that the point?

Perhaps the point is to see how hyprocital Gameplay can be?

I mean, the fact that they’ve yet to prove much doesn’t remove the fact that you haven’t either. On the other hand, Escade’s been actively talking about being in the process of assembling a neat evidence presentation, whereas the closest you’ve come to such is saying that it would be somewhere between impossible and too hard to bother.

Posted: **Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:16 am**

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Consular wrote:It's kinda ironic that you're demanding evidence when you lot have refused to give any yourselves... Or is that the point?

Perhaps the point is to see how hyprocital Gameplay can be?

Honestly it's a pretty shit point. Gameplay isn't a group of forum administrators banning people for OOC offences while refusing to provide any evidence of those offences, even to the accused. Or has Escade somehow banned you when I wasn't looking?

Posted: **Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:06 pm**

Wait, Glen. You believe that the IC/OOC divide in Gameplay is bullshit? Does that mean that your own motives have been based upon the fact that politicians that you believe are bad over the years, are in fact, bad human beings as well? Additionally, your own statement seems to make you think that there's no difference between political and personal attacks. Does that mean that you've been going after people personally all this time when you've been attacking them, in your own head?

That's fucked up.

Either that, or your belief that the IC/OOC divide is bullshit is, itself, bullshit, or at best misinformed and showing again that you define things differently than the rest of the GP community does and are surprised that people have no clue what the fuck you mean. Like the words "trolling" and "harassment."

In fact, by your definition, you have engaged in "harassment" against Cormac, Neenee, NK, Dalimbar, Anyone tied to the government of Osiris, Solorni, NES, Onder... should I go on? Perhaps TSP should take steps against such a prolific "harasser" in ther midst. Hell, you even "harassed" Cormac while he was in TSP! So you can't make the excuse that it only applies to TSPers.

Posted: **Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:02 pm**

Posted: **Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:13 pm**

Florentine Palace wrote:<snip>

Can ya spoiler it?

Posted: **Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:40 pm**

While an escalation of punishment on the individual is the reasonable course bear in mind not all websites will allow it some only allow warnings

Posted: **Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:51 am**

What's England celebrating?

Posted: **Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:10 am**

Catalyse wrote:What's England celebrating?

Alastair Cook had a killer farewell innings.

NationStates

Embassy of the South Pacific