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Embassy of the South Pacific | Détente with Balder

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Cormactopia Prime
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Posts: 2477
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:05 pm

RiderSyl wrote:and bitching about how the game isn't like the golden days (when you weren't a pariah).

I'm not a pariah, at least not to the same degree Unibot is, and I entirely agree with his assessment of modern "gameplay." For the record.

Let's stop dismissing everything a person says based on who the person is. Is there seriously anyone who doesn't think "gameplay" today is just some weird social media thing that has very little to do with actually being a political game? Because I've thought that and been saying it for a while now.

In regard to TSP, the whole thing is a mess and really just evidence of what Unibot is saying. It's an OOC/meta clash of personalities, not gameplay. This weird and toxic interpersonal OOC/meta bickering going on in TSP is just a microcosm of what goes on everywhere now in "gameplay" land.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Klaus Devestatorie
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Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:11 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:and bitching about how the game isn't like the golden days (when you weren't a pariah).

I'm not a pariah, at least not to the same degree Unibot is, and I entirely agree with his assessment of modern "gameplay." For the record.

Let's stop dismissing everything a person says based on who the person is. Is there seriously anyone who doesn't think "gameplay" today is just some weird social media thing that has very little to do with actually being a political game? Because I've thought that and been saying it for a while now.

In regard to TSP, the whole thing is a mess and really just evidence of what Unibot is saying. It's an OOC/meta clash of personalities, not gameplay. This weird and toxic interpersonal OOC/meta bickering going on in TSP is just a microcosm of what goes on everywhere now in "gameplay" land.

Nope, probably nobody. But raiding/defending has gone out of fashion for most gameplay participants, and the GCRs are too big to knock over easily. So this is what we got.
Last edited by Klaus Devestatorie on Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:14 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:and bitching about how the game isn't like the golden days (when you weren't a pariah).

I'm not a pariah, at least not to the same degree Unibot is, and I entirely agree with his assessment of modern "gameplay." For the record.

Let's stop dismissing everything a person says based on who the person is. Is there seriously anyone who doesn't think "gameplay" today is just some weird social media thing that has very little to do with actually being a political game? Because I've thought that and been saying it for a while now.

In regard to TSP, the whole thing is a mess and really just evidence of what Unibot is saying. It's an OOC/meta clash of personalities, not gameplay. This weird and toxic interpersonal OOC/meta bickering going on in TSP is just a microcosm of what goes on everywhere now in "gameplay" land.


Few have the cojones to put even their ideals, much their alignment, ahead of "the peace" - especially if it means any risk to themselves.

That applies to a lot around these parts.

But maybe I'll be proven wrong in one sense at least - all y'all that have made a big deal of issues exactly like these in places less close to home, all y'all that have been happy to stand behind others taking action against issues like these, now's your turn to take a stand on the front of forcing people to actually face these issues, even if it's not as easy as saying "yeah screw TI/TRE," even if it's a hard thing to do, even if it comes with some risks and mess. Walk the walk, when it's not easy, but difficult. It starts with us all policing each other. The raiding community has done it, and will keep doing it - it works.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Tupelope
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Founded: Jul 14, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Tupelope » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:14 pm

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:I'm not a pariah, at least not to the same degree Unibot is, and I entirely agree with his assessment of modern "gameplay." For the record.

Let's stop dismissing everything a person says based on who the person is. Is there seriously anyone who doesn't think "gameplay" today is just some weird social media thing that has very little to do with actually being a political game? Because I've thought that and been saying it for a while now.

In regard to TSP, the whole thing is a mess and really just evidence of what Unibot is saying. It's an OOC/meta clash of personalities, not gameplay. This weird and toxic interpersonal OOC/meta bickering going on in TSP is just a microcosm of what goes on everywhere now in "gameplay" land.

Nope, probably nobody. But raiding/defending has gone out of fashion for most gameplay participants, and the GCRs are too big to knock over easily. So this is what we got.

i agree with klaus
Last edited by Tupelope on Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Consular
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Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:32 am

Tupelope wrote:
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:Nope, probably nobody. But raiding/defending has gone out of fashion for most gameplay participants, and the GCRs are too big to knock over easily. So this is what we got.

i agree with klaus

^ Gameplay just has no... consequences. I don't feel particularly inclined to raid nor defend when I feel like neither has any impact.

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Drop Your Pants
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Founded: Apr 17, 2005
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Drop Your Pants » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:40 am

Consular wrote:^ Gameplay just has no... consequences. I don't feel particularly inclined to raid nor defend when I feel like neither has any impact.

Players should participate in R/D because its a fun way to play the game. If your only desire is to make an impact or further your personal agenda then you can stay sitting on the sidelines eating crumpets.
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Glen-Rhodes
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Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:40 am

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Few have the cojones to put even their ideals, much their alignment, ahead of "the peace" - especially if it means any risk to themselves.


This is very ironic, in a thread where you and others are basically saying I’m the worst player to have ever played the game.

You aren’t unique in GP, Souls. You’re part and parcel to the rest of the community. And GP as a whole absolutely hates those who put their ideals and alignment ahead of “the peace.” When somebody does, they’re attacked as a corrupting influence, or just downright corrupt. They’re vilified across the community, because they’re not adhering to the social and political norms that people like you decided are exclusively acceptable. Anybody who tries to shake things up in the game, particularly if they’re defenders, has their motives and character questioned. It happened to me, and I saw it happen to Roavin too. It certainly happened to Unibot, long before anybody suspected anything about OOC misconduct.

And that’s just on the IC side of this game. Trying to keep “the peace” in TSP is exactly why Escade and Tim were allowed to drive away so many promising leaders from our community. That’s something we’ll be feeling for years— two generations of TSP’s leaders either quit the game or were so mentally exhausted with the constant fighting and baiting that they’re basically on never-ending leaves. None of them, unlike GPers who have vested interests in hating TSP, pointed their fingers at anybody but Escade and Tim. Yet admin teams on both the forums and Discord didn’t act, outside of warnings and ineffective temporary chat bans, for nearly 2 months in part because of how we knew NSGP would react, and because we had to grapple with the unprecedented situation and the warped view of moderation in GP regions that says administrative bans are only for sexual harassers. The fact is, had Tim and Escade behaved here the way they did in TSP’s Discord and forums, they would be DOS for constant rulebreaking. But according to the social and political rules of NSGP, this must be a controversial decision because of who the parties are and the expectation that only socially and politically disliked people deserve repercussions for their actions. In fact, it’s the unpopular TSP admins who must be the ones in the wrong and it’s they who truly should be banned, no matter what the testimonies say or domestic reaction in TSP itself.

The idea that you’re calling for people to “stand up” and put their ideals ahead of “the peace” is just truly ironic. Both in your comments about TSP’s administration team and in your appeal against your proscription. A raider getting away with supporting acts of war against a defender-leaning GCR is built into “the peace” of NSGP. You aren’t the underdog in that scenario, as far as NSGP’s social and political rules are concerned.

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Tim Stark
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Posts: 360
Founded: Jun 15, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tim Stark » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:01 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:The fact is, had Tim and Escade behaved here the way they did in TSP’s Discord and forums, they would be DOS for constant rulebreaking.


Read my fucking posts, Glen. While it's marginally toned down, let's not pretend I act like some sort of innocent angel on-site. I mean hell, some raiders at one point genuinely theorized a mod conspiracy had to be in effect because I apparently wasn't being warned for warnable actions (which therefore weren't actionable, obviously). Also, bit of pot calling the kettle black innit? Hell, I'll make you a bet. You post all the stuff I've said, and I post all the stuff you said. Bet you that your shit will be more actionable.

All you're doing is prattling on about the same stuff, yet ultimately justifying it all with IC evidence. Where's the proof of the harassment or the false accusations of OOC misconduct that Tsunamy was so happily parading around until he skipped out for a month to avoid having to be held accountable. The Admin story keeps changing all the time about why you can't share it. First you refuse to show it at all, then you refuse to show it due to Escade and I's privacy, then you change that to the "victim" privacy when you realize Escade and I would love for actual evidence to be shown. To this day, not a single administrator has actually shown any substantive evidence that justifies an OOC-grounded ban, with everything shared being very clearly IC interactions. You won't show it to the accused, you won't show it to regional members asking to see it, and you won't even show it to other Regional Administrators who have far more ability and experience in the field than you.

All you keep doing is deflecting with whining and moaning about how hostile the political climate had become, yet that does not change the fact that the Admin Team leveraged some seriously heavy OOC accusations against Escade and myself, and then when asked for evidence clammed up on that front and started desperately deflecting. Hell, you even tried to paint the Motion of No Confidence as an unofficial behavior warning, despite it having no relation to the Admin Team. You, Tsunamy, Roavin, and Kringalia are frankly an absolute embarrassment of an Administrative Team, and it amazes me that any of you can actually consider yourselves as actually possessing even a shred of integrity after this affair.
Last edited by Tim Stark on Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Consular
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Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:09 am

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Consular wrote:^ Gameplay just has no... consequences. I don't feel particularly inclined to raid nor defend when I feel like neither has any impact.

Players should participate in R/D because its a fun way to play the game. If your only desire is to make an impact or further your personal agenda then you can stay sitting on the sidelines eating crumpets.

Disagree. But to each their own

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Unibot III
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Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:30 am

RiderSyl wrote:
Unibot III wrote:<snip>


You're minimizing the fact that the TSP admin team has a private server with you, calling this a "Tim/Escade" problem while omitting your buddies' names, and bitching about how the game isn't like the golden days (when you weren't a pariah).

While that last bit isn't at all intriguing, what is intriguing are the first two items. It shows you're on the TSP clique's side. The members of the clique just happen to be the stalwarts of TSP. Since you're a man of self-interest, you're either on their side because you're trying to work your way back into TSP, or you essentially already have.

With the way TSP is determined to prove all its haters right, it wouldn't surprise me if you succeeded.


Very little of my time here on NationStates is consistent with someone who cares about their self-interest. I've been accused of being crazy, but rarely self-interested.

I'm not trying to "work my way back" into TSP nor am I back in TSP. I like to catch up with my friends. In particular, I've known Glen since I was fifteen. I'm 26. When I think about it that way, he's one of my oldest friends. That's part of why I made the statement that I did: I don't believe there's much of a game to return to. Even if I was magically pardoned, what is there here for me to do with my pardon!?

Get bitched at by a whole new bunch of people? You guys don't really understand: I was always unpopular. At the height of my powers, I was still one of the most openly despised people in Gameplay. I played because it was fun despite that! I'm disillusioned with NationStates now because there's very little of that game environment left. There's no real crises, no superorganization, no propaganda, no political dimension. The game has been swallowed up by warring personalities that aren't actually very interested in playing NationStates, they just want to own it.

The "golden days" is a funny term to use, because incidentally when I joined the game, the golden days were supposed to have passed and gone then. It's for that reason that I have hope that NationStates Gameplay can be revived. But it'll always be dependent on the renewal of ideas, philosophy, organization, and decisive, inclusive leadership for its activity. That's what the game has lost - and I believe that a new generation can, if they choose to do so, return the game to a former glory. The recovery begins first with experimentation, deploying political creativity and building social relations to form new organizations, new groups that inspire players to commit to new and old goals and objectives done differently. It takes about five to ten, very decisive, very involved players, to build the fracture lines of a political world and drive geopolitical activity - they're self-appointed egos, nobody thanks them, but without them the game is a marina with a lot of sails and no wind. Sure I was one, so was NES, Milograd, Onder, Cormac, Rachel, Todd and others. In a prior generation, those names were different - Francos Spain, Pope Hope, Mammo, Eurosoviets, Unistrut, Loop, Unlimited - but the role they played was essential and their sudden departure for CyberNations nearly killed Gameplay.

The goal of the Anatomy of the Coup lectures was not to ingratiate myself to a new generation of players - as some supposed - it was me trying to impart the essential ingredients of an interesting Gameplay environment: intrigue, ambition, community, strategy, creativity, dedication, luck, and a sense of justice and purpose.

I also wanted to get the history written down before I left because I was sincerely concerned that as the game dies a slow death, the institutional memory is dying first.

In regard to TSP, the whole thing is a mess and really just evidence of what Unibot is saying. It's an OOC/meta clash of personalities, not gameplay. This weird and toxic interpersonal OOC/meta bickering going on in TSP is just a microcosm of what goes on everywhere now in "gameplay" land.


This is what I meant, yes. This thread is a clear example of it. This is the most interesting thing to happen in Gameplay in a month - and it's just a bunch of people whining about who belongs in a clubbie. *shrugs*

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:I'm not a pariah, at least not to the same degree Unibot is, and I entirely agree with his assessment of modern "gameplay." For the record.

Let's stop dismissing everything a person says based on who the person is. Is there seriously anyone who doesn't think "gameplay" today is just some weird social media thing that has very little to do with actually being a political game? Because I've thought that and been saying it for a while now.

In regard to TSP, the whole thing is a mess and really just evidence of what Unibot is saying. It's an OOC/meta clash of personalities, not gameplay. This weird and toxic interpersonal OOC/meta bickering going on in TSP is just a microcosm of what goes on everywhere now in "gameplay" land.

Nope, probably nobody. But raiding/defending has gone out of fashion for most gameplay participants, and the GCRs are too big to knock over easily. So this is what we got.


I believe that the stability of GCRs in "physical" terms is irrelevant, it was only Osiris and TSP that kept getting couped really - and that was more of a distraction than an end to itself. Military Gameplay being out of fashion is more detrimental - I believe it was out of fashion when I led the FRA too. The Rangers could field three soldiers, the Black Riders would field three soldiers - and we'd make the best of the competition.

The most important factor that drives activity in Gameplay is identification which leads individuals to take sides and weave themselves into a wider geopolitical struggle. That's what bakes purpose into Military and Political Gameplay and drives players to be committed to contributing day in and day out. Coups are the cherry on top, so to speak - the formation and competition of intergroups is the sundae.
Last edited by Unibot III on Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:14 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Hesskin Empire
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Founded: Jan 30, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Hesskin Empire » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:08 am

You know something must be a bit weird when you find yourself on the side of Tim :blink:
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Glacikaldr
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Founded: Jul 17, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Glacikaldr » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:37 am

While I get why GP may seem dead retrospectively, as someone who likes to involve themselves in such things I think it is still alive internally - just hard to get involved in.

I think newspapers are necessary to propagate gameplay however, hence why I try to remain passionate about them.
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Kurnugia
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Founded: Feb 21, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Kurnugia » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:56 am

So let me get this straight: Two prominent people find themselves banned for 8 months about OOC charges without them (or anybody else for that matter) knowing what the accused did wrong and in doing so, the admins are breaking their own site rule. To add to this, admin team have no problem to associate themselves with a well documented OOC sexual harassment history

...

Surreal would be an understatement.
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Midand
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 448
Founded: Sep 08, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Midand » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:53 am

Kurnugia wrote:So let me get this straight: Two prominent people find themselves banned for 8 months about OOC charges without them (or anybody else for that matter) knowing what the accused did wrong and in doing so, the admins are breaking their own site rule. To add to this, admin team have no problem to associate themselves with a well documented OOC sexual harassment history

...

Surreal would be an understatement.



Thank you Kurnugia for providing a much-needed summary of this wasteland of recent events without me having to read this for days...much appreciated.
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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:56 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Few have the cojones to put even their ideals, much their alignment, ahead of "the peace" - especially if it means any risk to themselves.


This is very ironic, in a thread where you and others are basically saying I’m the worst player to have ever played the game.

You aren’t unique in GP, Souls. You’re part and parcel to the rest of the community. And GP as a whole absolutely hates those who put their ideals and alignment ahead of “the peace.” When somebody does, they’re attacked as a corrupting influence, or just downright corrupt. They’re vilified across the community, because they’re not adhering to the social and political norms that people like you decided are exclusively acceptable. Anybody who tries to shake things up in the game, particularly if they’re defenders, has their motives and character questioned. It happened to me, and I saw it happen to Roavin too. It certainly happened to Unibot, long before anybody suspected anything about OOC misconduct.

And that’s just on the IC side of this game. Trying to keep “the peace” in TSP is exactly why Escade and Tim were allowed to drive away so many promising leaders from our community. That’s something we’ll be feeling for years— two generations of TSP’s leaders either quit the game or were so mentally exhausted with the constant fighting and baiting that they’re basically on never-ending leaves. None of them, unlike GPers who have vested interests in hating TSP, pointed their fingers at anybody but Escade and Tim. Yet admin teams on both the forums and Discord didn’t act, outside of warnings and ineffective temporary chat bans, for nearly 2 months in part because of how we knew NSGP would react, and because we had to grapple with the unprecedented situation and the warped view of moderation in GP regions that says administrative bans are only for sexual harassers. The fact is, had Tim and Escade behaved here the way they did in TSP’s Discord and forums, they would be DOS for constant rulebreaking. But according to the social and political rules of NSGP, this must be a controversial decision because of who the parties are and the expectation that only socially and politically disliked people deserve repercussions for their actions. In fact, it’s the unpopular TSP admins who must be the ones in the wrong and it’s they who truly should be banned, no matter what the testimonies say or domestic reaction in TSP itself.

The idea that you’re calling for people to “stand up” and put their ideals ahead of “the peace” is just truly ironic. Both in your comments about TSP’s administration team and in your appeal against your proscription. A raider getting away with supporting acts of war against a defender-leaning GCR is built into “the peace” of NSGP. You aren’t the underdog in that scenario, as far as NSGP’s social and political rules are concerned.


You're right, if I was unique and alone, no progress would have been made. Luckily, I'm not, and some has. While I'd love to get into what has happened with Roavin's past and how wrong I see that statement as, I don't think this forum is an appropriate vector for such. But sure, defend him alongside Unibot and think its a good look for any of y'all.

I'd flip the table - trying to keep the peace is why there's a cycle where everyone tries to forget that you removed your opponents from the region, and that it's okay because there's no fighting if you remove everyone who fights you....at least until they end up in your sights. Now don't get me wrong, I can't stand Tim on a normal day, but here's the thing - I have proof of everything I dislike the man for. You, here again, claim you do as well, in massive magnitude. Well, stop being scared to show it then. The ban is not what's controversial nearly so much as your refusal to prove it's fair. While you'e at it, maybe actually prove the series of warnings, because you basically said earlier that there were not really any any warnings (and counted an IC recall movement as one of those few).

...Sorry if I don't trust the "domestic reaction in TSP itself" when TSP's "domain" gets regularly purged of those you don't like.

Final note: maybe consider some of the reasons why your admin team is "unpopular."




Kurnugia wrote:So let me get this straight: Two prominent people find themselves banned for 8 months about OOC charges without them (or anybody else for that matter) knowing what the accused did wrong and in doing so, the admins are breaking their own site rule. To add to this, admin team have no problem to associate themselves with a well documented OOC sexual harassment history

...

Surreal would be an understatement.


You could also add "accused another person of blackmail and put words in the mouths of TEP, TWP, and Imki, then halfassedly walked most of that back when caught out without much of an apology to anyone involved" as well as "continues to try and ban said person for IC reasons based on evidence that they refuse to show to anyone but themselves," but admittedly my case is a sideshow at this point.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

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How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9027
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:57 am

Kurnugia wrote:So let me get this straight: Two prominent people find themselves banned for 8 months about OOC charges without them (or anybody else for that matter) knowing what the accused did wrong and in doing so, the admins are breaking their own site rule. To add to this, admin team have no problem to associate themselves with a well documented OOC sexual harassment history


Two formerly prominent people found themselves on the outs politically, because their behavior while in the Cabinet led to an unprecedented recall started by the leader of that Cabinet. Over the next 2-3 months, depending on how you want to start counting, those two formerly prominent players created a noxious environment of fighting, baiting, and trolling, particularly targeted at their former Cabinet colleagues, those who supported their recalls, and new players who challenged them (or simply ran against their friend in a contested election). These formerly prominent players, who were by now only prominent insofar as they were starting fights every week, were pleaded with publicly and privately, by a whole host of other players, to stop and change their behavior, because at the end of the day a recall isn’t worth destroying the whole community. To no avail, obviously. After that Discord chat ban expired, Tim’s first post was “this channel was dead af without us to get it poppin’”, showing that he definitely understood his behavior was an issue and not at all mocking the punishment.

When faced with repercussions for their behaviors and actions, these two players tried to justify themselves by a) saying others started it by trying to recall them, b) saying they didn’t realize anybody took “OOC offense” at anything they said, c) that being called out for fighting in the Cabinet was just an OOC attack dressed up as an IC criticism, and the people who supported the recall should be punished, d) tried to deflect and excuse their behavior by bringing up events from 4+ years ago, or tried to say that those responding to being attacked were the real problem, and then e) feigned ignorance that they had no clue what admins were talking about when we asked them to apologize for their unacceptable behavior over the past few months. Let’s not forget to add Escade saying one of the players who left was actually just jealous over her superior event skills. And Tim dismissing any claims of mental stress as those people just being deceptive and emotionally manipulative, and they shouldn’t take the game so seriously.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is if *TSPers* think the community is best served by the bans. And the overwhelming response has been literal thank yous. Gameplay can spend weeks criticizing all they’d like, but none of you are TSPers and most you are on record wishing the worst for our community. To those other community admins who have reached out to us to ask about the process and whether it’s an issue that would affect their regions too, we’ve gladly had that dialogue. But the broader GP community has reacted the way we predicted you all would. What matters is how TSPers feel, and they’ve told us. Now, we’re going to go about fixing as much damage to our community and culture as we can. The peanut gallery will do what they always do.

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King HEM
Envoy
 
Posts: 308
Founded: Mar 07, 2007
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby King HEM » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:36 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Kurnugia wrote:So let me get this straight: Two prominent people find themselves banned for 8 months about OOC charges without them (or anybody else for that matter) knowing what the accused did wrong and in doing so, the admins are breaking their own site rule. To add to this, admin team have no problem to associate themselves with a well documented OOC sexual harassment history


Two formerly prominent people found themselves on the outs politically, because their behavior while in the Cabinet led to an unprecedented recall started by the leader of that Cabinet. Over the next 2-3 months, depending on how you want to start counting, those two formerly prominent players created a noxious environment of fighting, baiting, and trolling, particularly targeted at their former Cabinet colleagues, those who supported their recalls, and new players who challenged them (or simply ran against their friend in a contested election). These formerly prominent players, who were by now only prominent insofar as they were starting fights every week, were pleaded with publicly and privately, by a whole host of other players, to stop and change their behavior, because at the end of the day a recall isn’t worth destroying the whole community. To no avail, obviously. After that Discord chat ban expired, Tim’s first post was “this channel was dead af without us to get it poppin’”, showing that he definitely understood his behavior was an issue and not at all mocking the punishment.

When faced with repercussions for their behaviors and actions, these two players tried to justify themselves by a) saying others started it by trying to recall them, b) saying they didn’t realize anybody took “OOC offense” at anything they said, c) that being called out for fighting in the Cabinet was just an OOC attack dressed up as an IC criticism, and the people who supported the recall should be punished, d) tried to deflect and excuse their behavior by bringing up events from 4+ years ago, or tried to say that those responding to being attacked were the real problem, and then e) feigned ignorance that they had no clue what admins were talking about when we asked them to apologize for their unacceptable behavior over the past few months. Let’s not forget to add Escade saying one of the players who left was actually just jealous over her superior event skills. And Tim dismissing any claims of mental stress as those people just being deceptive and emotionally manipulative, and they shouldn’t take the game so seriously.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is if *TSPers* think the community is best served by the bans. And the overwhelming response has been literal thank yous. Gameplay can spend weeks criticizing all they’d like, but none of you are TSPers and most you are on record wishing the worst for our community. To those other community admins who have reached out to us to ask about the process and whether it’s an issue that would affect their regions too, we’ve gladly had that dialogue. But the broader GP community has reacted the way we predicted you all would. What matters is how TSPers feel, and they’ve told us. Now, we’re going to go about fixing as much damage to our community and culture as we can. The peanut gallery will do what they always do.


I just want to point out that I made a totally good-faith argument for why the ban is problematic and the only response I got from you was that you didn't actually mean the motion of no-confidence was an initial warning when you said that the motion of no-confidence served as an initial warning.
HEM

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Former Vice Delegate of The South Pacific
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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:55 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Kurnugia wrote:So let me get this straight: Two prominent people find themselves banned for 8 months about OOC charges without them (or anybody else for that matter) knowing what the accused did wrong and in doing so, the admins are breaking their own site rule. To add to this, admin team have no problem to associate themselves with a well documented OOC sexual harassment history


Two formerly prominent people found themselves on the outs politically, because their behavior while in the Cabinet led to an unprecedented recall started by the leader of that Cabinet. Over the next 2-3 months, depending on how you want to start counting, those two formerly prominent players created a noxious environment of fighting, baiting, and trolling, particularly targeted at their former Cabinet colleagues, those who supported their recalls, and new players who challenged them (or simply ran against their friend in a contested election). These formerly prominent players, who were by now only prominent insofar as they were starting fights every week, were pleaded with publicly and privately, by a whole host of other players, to stop and change their behavior, because at the end of the day a recall isn’t worth destroying the whole community. To no avail, obviously. After that Discord chat ban expired, Tim’s first post was “this channel was dead af without us to get it poppin’”, showing that he definitely understood his behavior was an issue and not at all mocking the punishment.

When faced with repercussions for their behaviors and actions, these two players tried to justify themselves by a) saying others started it by trying to recall them, b) saying they didn’t realize anybody took “OOC offense” at anything they said, c) that being called out for fighting in the Cabinet was just an OOC attack dressed up as an IC criticism, and the people who supported the recall should be punished, d) tried to deflect and excuse their behavior by bringing up events from 4+ years ago, or tried to say that those responding to being attacked were the real problem, and then e) feigned ignorance that they had no clue what admins were talking about when we asked them to apologize for their unacceptable behavior over the past few months. Let’s not forget to add Escade saying one of the players who left was actually just jealous over her superior event skills. And Tim dismissing any claims of mental stress as those people just being deceptive and emotionally manipulative, and they shouldn’t take the game so seriously.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is if *TSPers* think the community is best served by the bans. And the overwhelming response has been literal thank yous. Gameplay can spend weeks criticizing all they’d like, but none of you are TSPers and most you are on record wishing the worst for our community. To those other community admins who have reached out to us to ask about the process and whether it’s an issue that would affect their regions too, we’ve gladly had that dialogue. But the broader GP community has reacted the way we predicted you all would. What matters is how TSPers feel, and they’ve told us. Now, we’re going to go about fixing as much damage to our community and culture as we can. The peanut gallery will do what they always do.


Let me address most of this.

- As it's been said by others here, there's no denying that Tim and Escade were in the wrong. But, you've also been in the wrong countless fucking times, and nothing happens to you or yours. The problem is that there's no goddamn consistency in what is punishable behavior in TSP. The only consistent thing is that problem behaviors and bad faith discussions only start to matter to the TSP admin team once they're personally involved in the drama. That's the fucking opposite of what an admin team is supposed to act like.

- TSP is increasingly becoming an echo chamber where anyone who opposes you and yours is purged in increasingly creative and underhanded ways. So, the "only TSPers opinion matters" narrative is getting weaker and weaker. The truth is that only TSPers who agree with your decisions matter. Those that don't are subjected to all sorts of bullshit until they either quit, go inactive, or get purged.

- The peanut gallery is being proven absolutely correct in everything they've said... by TSP itself. Especially with former TSPers joining in the peanut throwing. I don't know if the peanut gallery has always been proven right in the past with regards to TSP, but it seems like it's increasingly common.

- Not showing evidence to an accused party being problematic.. isn't a peanut gallery opinion. It's widely accepted that your legal system is a farce. Evil Wolf was screwed in TSP over the "voter importation" charge, but nobody really cared because it was Evil Wolf. Hileville's coup attempting to remove you from root admin, to save the community, was invalidated because he tried to do it via coup. All the glaring flaws in TSP's legal system were overlooked because there were greater evils. Now Tim/Escade and Souls are being screwed simultaneously, and what they've done isn't perceived as the greater evil this time. If you don't recognize that it's a serious problem now that public opinion has gone more against you than ever before, because "lol peanut gallery", then you're being naive.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:08 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:Let's stop dismissing everything a person says based on who the person is.


I never actually dismissed the idea that those weren't the golden days. I was just implying that Unibot favors the golden days because he was more accepted back then. :p
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Kurnugia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 934
Founded: Feb 21, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Kurnugia » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:09 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:Now, we’re going to go about fixing as much damage to our community and culture as we can. The peanut gallery will do what they always do.

Cool then go away from the NS forums and go on fixing your community. You have, as things stands now, clearly lost the court of public opinion. Not that you care about this.
Big Sister has always been Big Sister


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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6545
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:16 am

Kurnugia wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Now, we’re going to go about fixing as much damage to our community and culture as we can. The peanut gallery will do what they always do.

Cool then go away from the NS forums and go on fixing your community. You have, as things stands now, clearly lost the court of public opinion. Not that you care about this.


Might as well tell the water to go fix the leak.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
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Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

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Kurnugia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 934
Founded: Feb 21, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Kurnugia » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:18 am

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Kurnugia wrote:Cool then go away from the NS forums and go on fixing your community. You have, as things stands now, clearly lost the court of public opinion. Not that you care about this.


Might as well tell the water to go fix the leak.

lol xD
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AUTHOR OF ISSUE 1201

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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6552
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:25 am

RiderSyl wrote:- Not showing evidence to an accused party being problematic.. isn't a peanut gallery opinion. It's widely accepted that your legal system is a farce. Evil Wolf was screwed in TSP over the "voter importation" charge, but nobody really cared because it was Evil Wolf. Hileville's coup attempting to remove you from root admin, to save the community, was invalidated because he tried to do it via coup. All the glaring flaws in TSP's legal system were overlooked because there were greater evils. Now Tim/Escade and Souls are being screwed simultaneously, and what they've done isn't perceived as the greater evil this time. If you don't recognize that it's a serious problem now that public opinion has gone more against you than ever before, because "lol peanut gallery", then you're being naive.

Don't forget Tim's admission earlier in the NSGP server that EW's own proscription was based on trumped-up evidence!
Last edited by Lord Dominator on Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2477
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:27 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is if *TSPers* think the community is best served by the bans.

Of everything Glen has said, this is the only thing that is definitely, unquestionably true. Only TSPers can hold their administrators accountable, and if TSPers are happy with or at least tolerant of the bans, they've made their decision. And it's as much on them as it is on their administrative team.

If other people from elsewhere don't like it, y'all know what to do. Stop having anything to do with TSP. Continuing to argue about it here is pretty pointless though. You're not going to change TSP administrators' minds, or the minds of people in TSP who could actually do something about their administrators. Once again, Osiris was ahead of the curve in cutting off any relationship with TSP and proscribing TSPers from participation in Osiris, because people in Osiris have long seen the cancer in TSP that the rest of gameplay is now seeing. Stop complaining and start acting if you don't like it.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6070
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:43 am

RiderSyl wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:Let's stop dismissing everything a person says based on who the person is.


I never actually dismissed the idea that those weren't the golden days. I was just implying that Unibot favors the golden days because he was more accepted back then. :p


I don't think my perspective on what the game has become is coloured by my status here. Most of my generation has already accepted the game's fate and left. I've always been stubborn, nostalgic, and hopeful - you're reading ulterior motives where there is none. I sincerely believe NationStates Gameplay is facing a turning point, where it can revive itself or go the way of the dodo.

My concern is I'm not sure whether people really understand what made Gameplay successful...
Last edited by Unibot III on Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of TRR | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // Collected works // The Gameplay Alignment Test //
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