Embassy of the South Pacific

[Aenglaland]

You've swept toxicity under the rug by banning one faction. You haven't fixed it.

And it won't be fixed. This community has been toxic for years, and unless something drastic happens, I don't believe it will change.

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

The specifics of this situation are probably more complicated than most people are aware of. While this wouldn't have been my preferred my plan of action, I can see why the admin team did it based upon events in the last couple of months. Hopefully those on all sides of the recent toxicity can use this as an opportunity to self-reflect. They won't, but we can hope...

[Lord Dominator]

They won't, but we can hope...

Bit pessimistic there

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

They won't, but we can hope...

Bit pessimistic there

If they were expecting something to be different this time, they'd be crazy.

[RiderSyl]

The palm trees are burning.

[Benevolent Thomas]

I'm trying to think of something to say in regards to this incident, but all I can come up with is "my dinner table has empty chairs at it" before I get the urge to backspace before closing the tab. I'm not in TSP, but it effected me. Its hurt me and the regions I'm a part of. I'm sure other regions that have relationships with TSP share these consequences. Players have left the game over this. People that make my everyday NS experience worth logging in for. Its disheartening, especially since it wasn't all that long ago, from my perspective, that those involved got on quite well and we would all goof around together in voice chats.

The worse part of all this, is that I don't believe it can be made right. People did not feel welcome or comfortable and left our community. We may not get those players back. You could ban everyone that played a large role in this and it still wouldn't be enough. This has earned TSP a stigma and they are going to have to carry it.

[Hesskin Empire]

I'm trying to think of something to say in regards to this incident, but all I can come up with is "my dinner table has empty chairs at it" before I get the urge to backspace before closing the tab. I'm not in TSP, but it effected me. Its hurt me and the regions I'm a part of. I'm sure other regions that have relationships with TSP share these consequences. Players have left the game over this. People that make my everyday NS experience worth logging in for. Its disheartening, especially since it wasn't all that long ago, from my perspective, that those involved got on quite well and we would all goof around together in voice chats.

The worse part of all this, is that I don't believe it can be made right. People did not feel welcome or comfortable and left our community. We may not get those players back. You could ban everyone that played a large role in this and it still wouldn't be enough. This has earned TSP a stigma and they are going to have to carry it.

Until the eventual coup de grâce of TSP's current Govt.

[RiderSyl]

This has earned TSP a stigma and they are going to have to carry it.

Yup. All the jokes about TSP being toxic became all too real.
Sorry for the friends you've lost from this, BT.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

This has earned TSP a stigma and they are going to have to carry it.

I would say “tsp TOXIC” has been a meme based strongly in reality since at least Hileville’s coup over very similar complaints, a couple years back now. This has just reinforced it/introduced a new generation.

[North Prarie]

I guess we're done then
http://tspforums.xyz/thread-6447.html

Call rabble rousing if you’d like, but personally I’d love to see Escade share some of the things that the grapevine tells me the administration slandered her with over the past few weeks, now that I guess there’s nothing left to lose.

Could be worded better so let me try again - there’s clearly another side to the story here, and the version I’ve heard a few takes on is generally “the clique wanted tim gone, escade refused to help with what she saw as bullying, and in being an obstacle she became a target as well. The person glen wants gone is gone, and those who stood in the way are gone. Again.” I’d love to hear it from the source though.

It wasn't really this way-people wanted Tim gone because Tim, along with Escade, had been a massive part of the public infighting and toxicity happening over the summer. The main thing was that Tim was so critical and mean that not only players backed out, but it made new players hesitate to run for office, and worsened some of the mental health issues some of our users already had (last two apply to me.)
I won't argue that Glen and Roavin did nothing, (Tsu mostly didn't, tho, he really was just on one side, although not being super vocal about the situation), because Glen and Roavin certainly did. However, it was Tim and Escade that many of our admin team had been getting complaints about, and was a major reason for Seraph and Nakari's leaves.
I think this is a small victory for our community and should help us going forward.
If any of you would like a Discord briefing, albeit a non-impartial one, feel free to DM me.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

It wasn't really this way-people wanted Tim gone because Tim, along with Escade, had been a massive part of the public infighting and toxicity happening over the summer. The main thing was that Tim was so critical and mean that not only players backed out, but it made new players hesitate to run for office, and worsened some of the mental health issues some of our users already had (last two apply to me.)
I won't argue that Glen and Roavin did nothing, (Tsu mostly didn't, tho, he really was just on one side, although not being super vocal about the situation), because Glen and Roavin certainly did. However, it was Tim and Escade that many of our admin team had been getting complaints about, and was a major reason for Seraph and Nakari's leaves.
I think this is a small victory for our community and should help us going forward.
If any of you would like a Discord briefing, albeit a non-impartial one, feel free to DM me.

So you give a view of what you see Tim as responsible for, but don't clarify what Escade did besides, as I've heard it, not wanting to help gang up on Tim. From the other side, I've also heard tell of "this is stressing me" being used as an attempt to avoid valid/fair criticism. You then acknowledge that there's fault on a side that was not banned, and say the only difference is that they got less complaints - which sounds a lot like saying "their clique was bigger so they win," especially given that there undoubtedly *have* been complaints about at least Glen for years. Shall I quote from Sopo's announcement about the 2016 Coup attempt?

For years, The South Pacific has faced a constant cycle of crisis, inactivity, and feuding. Various Delegates, Assemblies, and Great Councils have attempted to find solutions to the years long struggle for order and peace in TSP, yet over time, TSP’s institutions have continued to diminish and ultimately fail. Corruption, manipulation, and tyranny by majority have been overlooked and even accepted as the community has struggled to create a functioning system of government.

On January 21st, the Cabinet took the first step toward positive change. The unelected admin team of TSP’s myBB forum, specifically Kringalia (Kris) and Sangaoguo (Glen-Rhodes), had shown themselves unwilling to cooperate with the elected Cabinet, the Charter, and admin policy.

2) removes Sandaoguo (Glen-Rhodes) and Kringalia (Kris) from the region for their determined effort to create strife in the community and increase their own personal power through illegal and unethical actions carried out as administrators of the forums.

Or subsequent posts:

All I will say in response to the above is that sometimes it is necessary to take radical steps when something has failed to work for so, so long. When problems are deeply rooted, they can't be solved in traditional ways. Yes, this is uncomfortable, and it is difficult. It's not ideal. But short-term upheaval will bring about long-term stability and democracy.

Of course they eventually failed, and as recently as a few months ago, even Escade remained critical of folks like Sopo for taking part in this (I wonder, now, if her view has changed).

These are not new complaints. Not only has Escade (ignoring Tim for the moment due to him, according to you, being more controversial) made similar accusations of Glen and friends being responsible for corruption and toxicity -

Laws are only applicable to players that this particular group of people can't control or wants to oust.

-----snip-----

Finally, I strongly suggest players, especially from TSP, don't bring up "bullying" without doing some naval gazing of their own. After all I was told that I needed to got to rehab and seek forgiveness simply for my choices of friends and players I chose to support in the game. So check your own vile behaviors out before trying to use female players and "bullying" as something to trash other people with when you engage in nastiness and think it shouldn't have consequences.

-But, in fact, there's a lot of parallels with Escade's proposal to legislate a recall option for Admins, in the face of blatant violations of the charter clause "Administrators will not be given responsibilities of a political nature." Corruption. She aimed for a legal route, rather than a coup route. 4 days later, she's been banned.

It's fair to wonder "maybe this is just a common thread people seize on to unfairly rally against the admin team." I ask those people to consider that, meanwhile, despite multiple requests in the thread of Tim and Escade's banning, no further details/evidence on the exact reasons for their banning have been provided. Tim, in TWP, said he'd been expressed told they would not be demonstrating what evidence they had against him. Less consequentially, I've also been fighting a ban from TSP recently, in which I also have been told I have no right to see the evidence against me, and also have yet to be told in detail what I'm even being accused of on several charges. Seeing a trend? If the establishment is in the right in all of these cases, beyond a doubt, why are they perpetually incredibly reluctant to share even the smallest shred of the proof behind their position? Why are they so non-transparent?

Glen and friends have had no shortage of complaints, and driven or forced out countless people over the years. They forced a well-meaning cabinet into performing one of the least-coupy-coups in NS history just to try and remove the forum from their grasp. Now, we've got another pair of prolific members booted.

How many times is TSP going to go through this cycle before it tries to remove the common factor in all of these incidents? The common group that everyone has an issue with? The group that, to quote Escade again, "told [me] that I needed to got to rehab" for refusing to join in on what she saw as people toxically ganging up on other people?

How long are you going to try to clean these things up as fast as possible, make them go out of sight, and pretend like if you don't talk about it, it's not there, until it boils over hard enough that it can't be ignored yet again?

[Glacikaldr]

Hear, hear Souls!

[Tim-Opolis]

I think what really highlighted the raw toxicity Glen was exuding throughout this whole affair was when he more or less attempted to isolate Escade from her friends. In the same message where he encouraged her to seek rehabilitation, and wax rhetoric about how he's willing to forgive her if she reforms, he actively engages in an attempt to convince her that I'm not her friend, describing me as "classless", "power hungry", an "asshole". At one point in the message he argues "Tim is not a role model. He's not your friend. He's not your ally.". This is not an isolated incident either, as Glen-Rhodes also approached Ian Fleming-Raith and more or less tried to convince him that Escade wasn't actually his friend and was just using him. Given that we're two of the people she was working most closely with in TSP at the time, it quite clearly reeks of an OOC-motivated attempt to emotionally manipulate and emotionally isolate an individual so as to get them to politically fall in line.

I was first informed about this investigation on Thursday, and given three days to reply or further administrative action would be taken. I shot off a reply to Tsunamy on the topic, requesting clarification on certain points that he had raised within his notification, and informing him that I intended to (and still intend to) submit a filing with the forum Administration team regarding the conduct of Glen-Rhodes. I then DMd him on Discord, and let him know that I'd be working 8-10 hour days for the next 3-4 days following that, and asked if I could have an extension. He said no worries, granted it, and told me the usual RL > NS line. At this point, I asked him when I could expect a reply within our conversation thread regarding the investigation. Since then, Tsunamy has not spoken a word to me, despite follow-up messages sent as well. I was banned out of the blue, without a single word said to me by Forum Administration on the topic. When I asked for the evidence, or even clarification on what specifically I'm accused, I was met with silence. When other individuals inquired for the evidence, they were told that it could not be shown to them to preserve the privacy of Escade and I. So, in other words, nobody besides the Admins is actually seeing any of this evidence, which oddly enough was described as "testimony" rather than "evidence" in the notice to Escade and I last week.

What makes this more interesting are the bold-faced lies and cherry-picking in TSP's statement on the matter. They say that they "cannot allow sustained attacks on any particular group of people", yet Escade and I have been having attacks launched against us for months now, with our actions largely being retaliatory. Surely if they cannot allow that, they would apply the standard consistently. I mean, my orchard has a lot of cherries, but I sure as hell didn't need them picking them. Furthermore, they claim the following:

Members of the administration team — and many others in the region — have tried unsuccessfully to mediate what can only be described as a disaster within the region. Seeing that it ultimately failed, we’ve been left with no alternative actions.

This too is a lie. Of the Administrative Team, only Tsunamy at least somewhat tried to attempt mediation. Glen-Rhodes, one of the instigators of this conflict, has been refusing to talk it out or seek any mediation since basically the start. Roavin will demand to hear your reasons for having issues with him from you, and then be unable to muster a reply once you tell him. Kringle makes passive aggressive comments and then feigns impartiality. Escade and I were consistently advocating for mediation, and asking for it to calm down and for us to come to the table. We were instead told to more or less sit down and shut up, with nothing said about the toxic attacks from Glen and coordinated actions against us. Of course, this is no surprise given that Glen's part of a faction of people who have been up to these sorts of actions for quite some time.

Oh, I did find out on the grapevine though that one of the supposedly "OOC Toxic" things that I did was starting a Private Assembly discussion to discuss the fact that 3/4 of TSP's Forum Administration team choose to reside in and be active involved in a private server with Unibot. Out of Kringalia, Roavin, Glen-Rhodes, and Tsunamy, only Tsunamy has no involvement with Unibot. The rest of them are more than happy to continue hanging out with him, despite being fully aware of the reasons that have made him unwelcome in NSGP, and despite being aware of the fact that many people who were affected by his actions are still around. I argued they gave him a platform of legitimacy, especially considering that they're Forum Administrators of a region which itself has banned him. It's not much of a stretch to imagine him using this to claim he's not so bad after all to newer players, saying something like "Well some of my closest friends are Administrators in TSP so I'm alright", and would be consistent with his history of political manipulation. Anyways, when this was all brought up the Admins basically stonewalled and said nothing was going to change.

I don't expect things in TSP to improve until something is eventually done about Glen-Rhodes, as he'll end up finding yet another target to set his sights on once he finds the next person he gets morally outraged about. It seems lessons weren't learned from the still-recent TNP bungling of the World Fair Fiasco, as we're now seeing TSP operating in not just one but two venues in this method grounded in refusing to share the evidence with anyone, or even being willing to clarify to the accused what they're being accused of.

I hope TSP's Treaty Allies across the world are taking a good hard look at The South Pacific right now, and considering carefully if they want to continue such close relationships with a region like that.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Just chiming in to note that I am not on the "Tim and Escade have been wronged" bandwagon. Everyone here who's being honest with themselves knows Tim and Escade haven't been wronged, because almost all of us have personally witnessed their capacity for toxicity over the years. The idea that Escade would never gang up on someone is ludicrous. What's accurate is that Escade wouldn't gang up on Tim, her ally in this conflict. The idea that Tim is innocent just because the evidence against him isn't being presented, for whatever reason, is similarly ludicrous. We've all seen how Tim sometimes behaves toward people, including perfect strangers whose only crime is being new to gameplay and not knowing what they're doing yet. There's no doubt in my mind that Tim and Escade deserved to be banned from TSP and that TSP will be somewhat better off without them.

If you'd like to contest that Tim's and Escade's behavior has been toxic, explain to me why people are leaving TSP or in some cases the game and citing them as the source of the toxicity that drove them away. You don't just up and leave a region, let alone the game, over nothing. They're not blameless.

The issue here is not that Tim and Escade are innocent, but rather that others are also guilty but aren't seeing consequences. Glen's behavior toward other people has long been beyond the pale, and the more he gets away with it with no consequences, the worse his behavior becomes. I'm sure others involved in the conflict have also engaged in unacceptable behavior. But the problem is that those people are forum administrators or are protected by forum administrators because they're all on the same side. It's not Tim and Escade who have been wronged, it's the community of TSP. Because with only one side of this prolonged conflict appropriately punished, and the rest still in high places in the region, it's only a matter of time before Glen or someone else from his cohort instigates another prolonged conflict like this that is going to upset people, drive them from the region, or make them quit the game. It's really a shame TSP has to go through this vicious cycle over and over again. It's really beyond time for the community to do something about these few people.

So, TL;DR: The issue is not that Tim and Escade were banned, but that they were the only ones banned. TSP has been wronged here, not them.

EDIT: I should add this is not to say Tim and Escade are the devil either. Almost everyone gets into toxic conflicts sometimes, that doesn't make them inherently bad people. But when they can't seem to quit the toxic conflict, it's time for the rest of the community to enforce consequences.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I’d also add, Cormac, that being theoretically in the wrong also doesn’t mean they’ve been treated properly. That’s to say, even if theoretically totally fair and correct, the government has handled things terribly. If a region holds itself to standards, legal or just institutional, it should follow them. They talk about it like it’s a clean cut case, but they won’t specify claims or give evidence.

I’ve been an admin and handled a few problem players. Was there ever a proper intervention? A clear “this is your warning, here’s what you need to fix, if you do it again, here’s the next consequence, and how they will escalate towards ba?” Or was there just general, random complaints, and then a ban? I mean, when we dealt with moneyness, we had a half dozen of those warning intervention things, clear escalation, clearly speificued kssues. When we banned him, we explained why, with proof ready to show (same goes for larger regional bans and such). When he made accusations against a council member or two, they were stood down from handling his cases, investigated properly with outside help, and we even at one point used outside mediation with moneyness himself. The point of all this is, especially with valuable community members, there should be a lot of process to point to leading up to a ban, and then the ban should be transparent and understandable by the time it occurs. This is not the case here as told so far, per both Tim and escade, or as shown on their forums. Rather, they we even given a specific thing to do (apologize and it’ll be forgiven) that was not followed! Not to begin to mentioned escade being told at one point that all she needed to do to make amends was to turn on tim.

The point is, even someone who totally deserves a ban, deserves a fair ban. Even if the administration does not have issues if it’s own. Even if the banned person is clearly in the wrong.

The idea I get is that not only is the TSP admin team full of its own issues, it’s also just plain bad at being a fair and open admin team, with good moderation policies. They should be held accountable for that even if nothing else.

Edit: and yes, this applies to me selfishly too. As I’ve said before - honestly, TSP probably should proscribe me, by having better laws that allow them more leeway to do so, but that doesn’t make me any less innocent under their current laws, or it any less ridiculous that the cabinet via their counsel has spread so many lies and so much slander via the proscription and court case to try and defend their announcement. But hey, Kris is proud that I get my day in court in whatever form it takes, Glen is happy to publicly announce it’s under no obligation to be a fair one, the cabinet (as it is) seems to have little issue with lies being told by the counsel in their name, and few seem to really care that everything they’ve actually allowed my counsel and I to reply to, we’ve blown out of the water.

[Cormactopia Prime]

The point is, even someone who totally deserves a ban, deserves a fair ban. Even if the administration does not have issues if it’s own. Even if the banned person is clearly in the wrong.

I do agree with this and the rest of the points you made. I don't think it's at all proper that most of the administrators who participated in the decision to ban Tim and Escade were the ones constantly arguing with them. It's self-moderating, and there's a reason NS moderators don't do it. So, I absolutely agree that the process needs to be fair, and hasn't been. TSP's community should hold its administrators accountable for that, but likely won't.

I just want to make sure discussion of the propriety of the administrators' actions is divorced from any insistence that Escade and Tim did nothing wrong. I'm willing to say the administrators acted wrongly, but I'm not willing to say Escade and Tim didn't deserve to be banned. They almost certainly did.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Yeah. It’s possible that someone can be in the wrong (though I’m hesitant to fully pile on for certain withou said *transparent* ban) and still have very valid points.

...like I think the major point that everyone just kind of breezes past throughout all this is how openly basically the entire admin team is in violation of the charter clause banning them from political roles. The admin team is anything but air gapped from politics, and also happens to control the only body capable of holding them accountable - the courts.

I mean maybe you can argue that the clause just prevents “admin” from innately holding political responsiblity, and does not ban holding other “separate” political roles, but I think that’s a terrible reading. The section is titled “Creating an independent, apolitical body to manage the forums” before specifying “The Forum Administration Team will be responsible for the technical maintenance of the forums and the integrity of the database. Administrators will not be given responsibilities of a political nature.”

This is pretty clearly meant to create a team that *only* does admin stuff, and pretty clearly meant to prevent the situation where... okay I think Tim named the admin team as “Kringalia, Roavin, Glen-Rhodes and Tsunamy?” Other better involved can feel free to add more detail, but - Kris runs the courts, the only body that can remove admins, and is also very close with Farengeto, current cabinet chair. GR in too many ways to name has been incessantly deeply involved in politics, besides being also on the court, being the intelligence coordinator, and on the occasionally politicized CRS (which also has its own charter section, and distinct responsibilities and political roles). Roavin, iirc, went directly from leading the cabinet into the admin team, and has since been defending in court politics pushed by his cabinet, on behalf of the current cabinet, complete with lying and politics, and also with most of the cabinet outright saying they’re not following the case at all, just letting him speak for them however he wants. Isn’t he the chair of the regional assembly or something too? The legislative body? And Tsu is *the delegate* and on the CRS. How is this remotely following the word or intent of the charter to create an air gapped and apolitical body focused only on the technical upkeep of the region? Why isn’t a bigger deal when the answer to this being raised is “then take it to court,” where anyone with enough paitience can spend months arguing it to a body *led by the admin team*??? Oh, and even then, the case you have to make is that they’re specifically “abusing administrative power.” Nothing else, however bad, qualifies for removal via the courts anyways. The only other way for an admin to be removed is for the other admins to remove them, according to the charter. Is the region just okay with this?

[Altinsane]

I don't think it's at all proper that most of the administrators who participated in the decision to ban Tim and Escade were the ones constantly arguing with them. It's self-moderating, and there's a reason NS moderators don't do it. So, I absolutely agree that the process needs to be fair, and hasn't been. TSP's community should hold its administrators accountable for that, but likely won't

This has been what was bugging me about the whole ordeal. Who exactly made the call to have Escade and Tim banned in the first place? TSP's admins include Glen, Roavin, Tsu, and Kris. At least half of them, if not the rest, have been purported to be victims of Esc/Tim harassment. Did those affected take part in the decision to have their own political opposition banned? Or did they recuse themsleves and leave the decision to be dealt with by the one, maybe two other admins left with their hands... imaginably clean? If that is the case, are single-handed decisions from an admin team acceptable? That doesn't scream unbiased to me.

Admins huddled in a group forming their own center of power is sketchy. We'll ignore that they're huddled in a group with Unibot for now.
Admins huddled in a group yelling at people who are a threat to their power is dangerous.
Admins huddled in a group banning people who are a threat to them sans evidence, communication, ownership of their own guilt, or real explanation is just unbelievable.

I feel like we've seen this play out before.

[Guy]

Yeah. It’s possible that someone can be in the wrong (though I’m hesitant to fully pile on for certain withou said *transparent* ban) and still have very valid points.

...like I think the major point that everyone just kind of breezes past throughout all this is how openly basically the entire admin team is in violation of the charter clause banning them from political roles. The admin team is anything but air gapped from politics, and also happens to control the only body capable of holding them accountable - the courts.

I mean maybe you can argue that the clause just prevents “admin” from innately holding political responsiblity, and does not ban holding other “separate” political roles, but I think that’s a terrible reading. The section is titled “Creating an independent, apolitical body to manage the forums” before specifying “The Forum Administration Team will be responsible for the technical maintenance of the forums and the integrity of the database. Administrators will not be given responsibilities of a political nature.”

This is pretty clearly meant to create a team that *only* does admin stuff

I don't know who's banned who, where or why, so not going to comment on it.

I don't think your reading is the natural one - I think it's a fair bit of a stretch, actually. While legislative text must be read in context, a provision effecting a prohibition on a person holding a role would have to be fairly clear. "Administrators will not be given responsibilities of a political nature" is much more easily read to refer to the responsibilities accorded to the role, rather than the eligibility of administrators to hold other office. "An administrator must not hold any political role", or something along those lines, would be what you'd expect if it was the latter.

The desire to create "an independent, apolitical body to manage the forums" is an objective (or even an aspirational provision), and that may modify the meaning of other provisions, but it cannot in and of itself be the source of such a prohibition.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

We talked about this offsite, but the gist was -

The legal side is debatable, but the realistic side is that the only way to have the legal side judged is via the courts (with obvious problems) and that even then the court/assembly really only have the ability to effect the other role, not the admin role, unless there’s specific abuse of *powers.* While it’s also debatable whether fully separate admins are necessary/a good thing, It’s also objectively bad practice to have the only route to recall an admin, however limited, consist at a 2/3 rate *of admins,* as well as to have most of the institutions in the “democratic” region simultaneously run by the same group of admins.

[Lord Dominator]

Riddle me this: I understand that a few weeks ago, Glen, Roavin, Escade, Tim, and Ian all gained a 48 hour (TSP) Discord ban, which strangely, does not suggest to me that only Tim/Escade were at fault here.
shrugs

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Riddle me this: I understand that a few weeks ago, Glen, Roavin, Escade, Tim, and Ian all gained a 48 hour (TSP) Discord ban, which strangely, does not suggest to me that only Tim/Escade were at fault here.
shrugs

Goes well with everyone from Farengeto to North Prairie (and many others around) agreeing with varying degrees of volume and publicness that GR and Roavin are at fault too, but few that I’ve heard of besides USOV and Imki discussing the concurrent fact that they’ve not been punished at all, that their body carries out these punishments (in a less than fair and transparent manner), or for that matter, advocating for them to face consequences too.

Also, what’s with offering evidence to other GCR leaders while refusing to let the accused see detail/evidence of what they’re accused of?

[Xoriet]

Also, what’s with offering evidence to other GCR leaders while refusing to let the accused see detail/evidence of what they’re accused of?

That's not entirely an uncommon practice though. Trading information on problematic members with close allies for them to be able to decide if they want said members in their region isn't unheard of. It's not exactly a good practice and can lead to trouble (see: Imki and TNP) but it's nothing new or extraordinary. I think it's fair to do so in cases of legitimate OOC harassment, but only if the evidence can legitimately endanger victims who reported it. Usually this is the standard by which this policy operates among regional leaders and admin teams. It can be justified sometimes, but it can also lead to serious consequences.

[Lord Dominator]

Also, what’s with offering evidence to other GCR leaders while refusing to let the accused see detail/evidence of what they’re accused of?

That's not entirely an uncommon practice though. Trading information on problematic members with close allies for them to be able to decide if they want said members in their region isn't unheard of. It's not exactly a good practice and can lead to trouble (see: Imki and TNP) but it's nothing new or extraordinary. I think it's fair to do so in cases of legitimate OOC harassment, but only if the evidence can legitimately endanger victims who reported it. Usually this is the standard by which this policy operates among regional leaders and admin teams. It can be justified sometimes, but it can also lead to serious consequences.

I mean, I understand that Tim/Escade are basically banned for a long-term flame-baiting, which honestly doesn't sound like something where any victims of such would be endangered (plus, it's supposed to be in the legislator areas or something). But what do I know, I'm just some GP person with no idea what's going on in TSP

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Also, what’s with offering evidence to other GCR leaders while refusing to let the accused see detail/evidence of what they’re accused of?

That's not entirely an uncommon practice though. Trading information on problematic members with close allies for them to be able to decide if they want said members in their region isn't unheard of. It's not exactly a good practice and can lead to trouble (see: Imki and TNP) but it's nothing new or extraordinary. I think it's fair to do so in cases of legitimate OOC harassment, but only if the evidence can legitimately endanger victims who reported it. Usually this is the standard by which this policy operates among regional leaders and admin teams. It can be justified sometimes, but it can also lead to serious consequences.

Fair points - and to be clear, I wasn’t suggesting that the policy in general is abnormal. My point is that the supposed “victims” are more than happy to make accusations and share evidence with admin teams, while telling those banned those don’t get to see specific accusations/evidence, and telling others who ask that they can’t see the same “for the privacy” of *the banned players.* There’s a lot of dodging going on there, and if its going to be shared, the accused should be the first to know what they’re accused of. Hell, we told Kleo and Fest exactly why we were cutting them off before we showed the rest of our region and the world, money knew what exact words and actions earned him his final boot to the ass, so forth.

Really, since the admin is claiming that escade and tim were mildly toxic to a wide swath of people, that should be easy to prove in a publicly acceptable manner, or acceptable less public alternative. Similarly, escade and tim keep saying that anything they did was just in reaction to strong threats and attacks against them via more private vectors, namely their own direct messages or messages sent to their friends. That should also be easy to provide some proof of, with next to no one to worry about because it’s largely their own message boxes. Either way, it ends this dumb setup where both sides claim the other was the instigator and they have proof but no one shows it.