Embassy of the South Pacific

[Westinor]

s commended by this august body for these very acts of service.

Sorry if I'm reading this wrong but. This isn't the Security Council? Or did TSP commend HS at some point.

[Amerion]

s commended by this august body for these very acts of service.

Sorry if I'm reading this wrong but. This isn't the Security Council? Or did TSP commend HS at some point.

Hi Westinor! It refers to the Security Council's commendation.

[Mlakhavia]

smart move

[Amerion]

smart move

This is the first move/step in the process of making amends and we are in open dialogue with our partners to the north.

[Lord Dominator]

If people think C&Cs are important, shouldn't TNP have realized that not committing to voting against the C&C was a bad move re: defenders, considering LWU had been at war with XKI and TGW? You can go further back in history and point to all the things that lead to today, on both sides. Maybe it was also the case the voting against would be really bad re: LWU, which obviously it was. Why should TSP or defenders care about that? That's TNP's problem.

You’re first confusing TGW for TL here (the former to my knowledge has never been at war with LWU more than pure R/D orgs are by default), secondly that neither was presently at war with LWU, and finally that in both cases LWU was the one declared on and didn’t reciprocate with TL (I don’t recall with XKI, not that TNP remotely cares about XKI’s opinion on anything).

Of course, one might presume that facts like Lenlyvit (current XKI delegate) being the author of the Condemn for the current LWU Khan, or any other defenders writing or supporting such things would indicate that “voting for condemn of LWU members” is not inherently a big deal to anyone other than certain moralists who dislike all raider Condemns.

[Angeloid Astraea]

Cooler heads are prevailing, and that's really boring.

[Sedgistan]

Of course, it's the TNPer that has to come in and start shit.

EDIT: had to add the laughing emoji to show how much i dont give a shit about the post and/or didnt care to read it.

If you're not going to read the posts here, or add anything substantial to the discussion (note: you haven't so far), then refrain from posting.

[Sacred Butterfinger]

-snip-

"We made a mistake, but we aren't gonna change anything."

[Frattastan IV]

Frankly, the reason why TNPers felt like a basic diplomatic negotiation was "blackmail" is really damn simple: TNP and TSP don't behave like allies, don't treat each other allies, and really have no reason to be allies.

It's even simpler. Whether that's "real" or not, many gameplay regions consider WA votes as unquestionable domestic choices that shouldn't be restricted or 'traded'. It's very rare to see treaties that introduce binding WA voting commitments, more so if the proposals don't directly affect the respective regions. Some have a different view: in 2016 TP announced that TRR had violated a non-aggression pact by voting against "Repeal 'Condemn The Pacific'". But that's not something that I have encountered among defenders.

In this specific case the request may have also gone beyond the understood boundaries of the alliance. Often the different partnerships that a region has will fulfill different roles/niches. This level of alignment could have been simply been a step too far compared to the expected mutual commitments until then, feeling like TNP was being turned into an integral part of defenderdom when that had never been true, or whatever.

The request to vote against (as opposed to abstaining) on an LWU Condemnation was also posed in very definite terms, as a kind of ultimatum to test TNP's commitment to the partnership, rather than timidly asked as a favour due to the importance the resolution may have held to TSP blah blah blah. This came off as an arrogant demand and certainly made things worse.

Finally, while these decisions are down to the discretion of individual governments, in pragmatic terms it's strange to think that Condemn Chef Big Dog is the issue that you choose to stake some of your goodwill or political credit or whatnot when you could save it for some future Liberation or Injunction or any other matter. The net result was also a loss of image for defenderdom. This is why, imho, it's difficult to defend it in transactional terms. Diplomacy is about getting the best possible outcomes.

[A Bloodred Moon]

Snip

I'm... genuinely baffled. You made this long a statement, and yet there is nothing whatsoever to suggest you will actually change anything. You're saying you should once again elevate HumanSanity to a high office, essentially invalidating the single consequence visited upon those responsible, and you're saying absolutely nothing about your own role in both threatening the North Pacific and then doubling down on the extortion attempt. This "apology" is just a nice way of saying you just don't care about what occurred and that TNP should shut up and let you go. You'll be right back at this as soon as you think it's safe to do so. This is the second time you apologised and it's the second time that nothing is actually changing. You're the exact same government, HS has just been conveniently shuffled around so that you can pretend like you changed. But you're still in charge and you just promoted your co-conspirator in the extortion attempt back to Cabinet.

You should have stuck with the original statement you issued. You know, the "Response to allegations by Lone Wolves United" one, where you said you did it and you stood by it. At least that seemed even surface-level sincere.

[Dawn Denac]

That was a really long winded way of saying:

Don't care, pound sand to TNP.

Looking forward to the next two weeks for a new similar statement to drop.

[Sandaoguo]

Cooler heads are prevailing, and that's really boring.

Technically speaking, there was never a battle between the hot and cold heads for either side to prevail, since foreign policy is entirely controlled by the Cabinet Private citizens have no direct control over TSP’s FA by design, outside of regular elections. I did predict several times that TSP’s Cabinet would feel super pressured to do whatever it takes to salvage the treaty. Even though there’s practically zero pressure domestically!

TNP still has the chance to do the funniest thing possible

[Mlakhavia]

TNP still has the chance to do the funniest thing possible

throwing all my eggs in this basket rn because it'd be really fucking funny, no matter the political fallout

[The North Polish Union]

Broadly a decent statement from TSP despite the fact that it gives the incessant whining of the 'Independents' who refuse to realise that their constant ideological whiplash is tiring for their allies a bit more consideration than it ought to.

[Syberis]

The apology is solid, and begins to rebuild some of my concerns as to The South Pacific's recent behavior towards independent regions as a whole. But, ultimately, this is two incidents in a month solely due to communications breakdowns, with fast fuckups and slow apologies. Can we please, for the sake of my blood pressure and sleep schedule, not have a third?

[Madjack]

Broadly a decent statement from TSP despite the fact that it gives the incessant whining of the 'Independents' who refuse to realise that their constant ideological whiplash is tiring for their allies a bit more consideration than it ought to.

"Constant ideological whiplash" - there's been 1 change in the time I've been back on NS (2018) in the lean of TNP's independence, and I'm the one who made it.

You know absolutely nothing about what independence is.

[Sandaoguo]

So the NPA hasn’t flip flopped on ops it’s committed to since 2018?

[Madjack]

So the NPA hasn’t flip flopped on ops it’s committed to since 2018?

There was a period of time where, due to internal legal challenges and a judicial ruling that meant that the NPA couldn't tag regularly, other than that the number and scope of what kind of operation the NPA could commit to hasn't really changed due to anything other manpower factors - except when I switched TNP's independence from raider leaning to defender leaning during my delegacy - which meant more liberations, more collaboration with Libcord, less (but not no) raids.

[Belschaft]

Please everyone, just ignore Glen. He's engaging in his old tactics of trying to antagonise those of TSP's allies he doesn't like in the hopes that they will do what he can't and end the alliance.

[Sandaoguo]

So the NPA hasn’t flip flopped on ops it’s committed to since 2018?

There was a period of time where, due to internal legal challenges and a judicial ruling that meant that the NPA couldn't tag regularly, other than that the number and scope of what kind of operation the NPA could commit to hasn't really changed due to anything other manpower factors - except when I switched TNP's independence from raider leaning to defender leaning during my delegacy - which meant more liberations, more collaboration with Libcord, less (but not no) raids.

TSP’s Cabinet cited flip-flopping on a liberation op as a trigger for their concerns with the Delegate’s reliability. That’s a real issue TNP needs to work on. Why would TNP be at the forefront of military cooperation if other regions can’t be certain TNP won’t pull out of committed ops?

Please everyone, just ignore Glen. He's engaging in his old tactics of trying to antagonise those of TSP's allies he doesn't like in the hopes that they will do what he can't and end the alliance.

And you’re posting in the hopes of maintaining the alliance. Everybody has their motives. Big whoop!

[The North Polish Union]

Broadly a decent statement from TSP despite the fact that it gives the incessant whining of the 'Independents' who refuse to realise that their constant ideological whiplash is tiring for their allies a bit more consideration than it ought to.

"Constant ideological whiplash" - there's been 1 change in the time I've been back on NS (2018) in the lean of TNP's independence, and I'm the one who made it.

You know absolutely nothing about what independence is.

Nonsense. 'Independence' for its entire existence has been nothing but a vehicle for self-interested regional powerbrokers to push through their particular vision for the region at the expense of any other considerations while masking these efforts under the tattered veil of 'regional sovereignty'. I doubt an individual such as yourself needs to be reminded of the contents of the major texts of 'Independentism' or the actions of many leading members of the 'Independent' movement who have played both sides of a great many intra- and inter-regional crises to ensure they will be in good favor with whichever side prevails.

The 'Independent demands the right to ruthlessly assert their own self-interest and to reject any requests given to them as burdensome and contrary to 'Independence', but then cries foul whenever they wind up on the short end of another region pursuing this same goal. Hedonism for me but not for thee.

TSP here is being far more generous than they could have been, considering the lack of care 'Independent' regions including TNP regularly give to long-term allies when faced with any decision that may cause the 'Independent' some minor political discomfort. Nothing in HumanSanity's appointment to an internal-facing role is in no way a threat to the sovereignty of TNP; on the other hand TNP's efforts to dictate who TSP may place in internal-facing government positions is manifestly an encroachment on TSP's sovereignty.

'Independent' regions can never make good allies in the long term. They will demand total freedom to pursue their own agenda to the detriment of their allies, meddle in their allies' internal affairs, and cry out in anguish the moment a request with the weight of a feather is made of them.

[Reventus Koth]

Nothing in HumanSanity's appointment to an internal-facing role is in no way a threat to the sovereignty of TNP; on the other hand TNP's efforts to dictate who TSP may place in internal-facing government positions is manifestly an encroachment on TSP's sovereignty.

For someone who mocks the tattered veil of "regional sovereignty", you sure are giving TSP (or more accurately, Glen) way more credit than it deserves by buying into this line of argument. TNP is well within its right to express concern with the unapologetic ringmaster of their region's extortion being given absolutely no consequences for their actions. His re-appointment affirms that TSP's "apologies", 2 in quick succession, mean somewhere between jack and shit, and it's nowhere near a violation of TSP's sovereignty to say so.

[Eternal Algerstonia]

Algerheaven recommends The South Pacific terminate relations with the North Pacific effective immediately. We stand in solidarity with the South Pacific and officially condemn the Cabal for their witch hunt smear campaign against the Patriot Pacific, and Algerheaven will gladly defend the Patriot Pacific should the Deep State launch a direct offensive against the last free Pacific left.

[Madjack]

"Constant ideological whiplash" - there's been 1 change in the time I've been back on NS (2018) in the lean of TNP's independence, and I'm the one who made it.

You know absolutely nothing about what independence is.

Nonsense.

Yes, everything you posted after this was.

Not only do you misunderstand what independence is, you also entirely misunderstand TNP's complaint over TSP's appointment of HS. I'm honestly surprised. I know you've never really been that quick on the uptake, but the Independent Manifesto has been around for a long time, and it's pretty clear on what it stands for.

Maybe pontificate less, and read more.

[Sporaltryus]

Can we please, for the sake of my blood pressure and sleep schedule, not have a third?

That's a fantastic idea, and god knows I'm gonna try to avoid a third.

I choose to believe that this was merely an oversight on Henn's part and that they merely plugged in someone they obviously thought highly enough of to appoint to cabinet once already, but did not account for the outrage that would potentially follow - honestly it's one of those things that could have been solved with a five minute discussion that's now a significantly larger headache for everyone involved. I don't envy anyone in this position. However, I'd love to actually hear from Henn here.

I'll come up directly and admit that this is the case. I wanted to realign my priorities as PM back to a domestic agenda, some of my ministers were thinking of resigning due to RL rearing its head again, and I figured a cabinet shuffle would be a good idea at this point. Having spoken to HS for a bit on ideas and thoughts, I realized that I liked their ideas a hell of a lot more than some others I've heard from in recent times, and I know they're a highly capable and productive member of TSP. It made sense to me to appoint them, since this was a domestic position not focused outward except on strictly cultural bounds, and our discussions with TNP included not reaching out to them for joint cultural events for a time, which I was, and am, fully committed to. I didn't much let anyone else know until I dropped the nomination in the Assembly, and it didn't get much, if any, traction within the region until MadJack posted earlier in this thread.

Obviously, not letting The North Pacific know ahead of time was a pretty significant mistake, and one I'm trying to rectify now. In addition, we've been having some good discussions within the Assembly and Cabinet on reorganizing our discord channel layout, to get more people into the room where it happens, as well as a broader discussion on our integration strategy to bring more people in, teach them the ways of FA, and hopefully take over as PM/MoFA/MoRA/etc. moving forward.