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Embassy of the South Pacific | Détente with Balder

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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The Python
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 362
Founded: Jul 24, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Python » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:08 pm

Witchcraft and Sorcery wrote:As the one who commanded the initial update operation, I am incredibly grateful to my region's government for their full-throated support and continued commitment to the principles of sovereignty and self-determination we fought so hard to implement in 2019.

Quorum raiding is one of the most despicable and anti-democratic practices that exists. I commend the cause of anti-fascism; fascists are a blight and a stain on the world and the institutions of this game. But quorum raiding, especially quorum raiding regions that were not fascist nor known for giving aid and comfort to fascists, sets a dangerous precedent that any and all with the means can simply subvert the World Assembly to their will. I'm especially disappointed in TNP, the region with far and away the most voting power in the World Assembly, for choosing to stoop to this tactic. For a democratic region no less, I hoped they would have some respect for the sanctity of that fundamental right to vote. The resolution would certainly have died on the floor; the fact that they felt it was necessary to do this speaks to insufficient or ineffective campaign efforts toward regional delegates.

So I will say the following as the officer in charge at update: had I seen that the NPA were hitting fascist-tagged or known fascist-sympathizing regions, I would have ordered troops to retreat. But they chose to indiscriminately target regions like North Pacific (one of the three founding members of the Founderless Regions Alliance) and the Renegade Islands Alliance. Further, every defender that participated did so freely, of their own volition, and with full knowledge of the resolution that was being quorum raided. I made sure this was communicated clearly and completely, and that participation was likely to ruffle some feathers.

My stance on quorum raiding remains the same and I will continue, as long as I am active, to fight against it, whatever the proposal or blowback it may cause. The support in this case is encouraging and I thank all the regions and officials who have offered their support and committed to a strong stance against this practice in the last several days.


I agree with W&S here. Approval raiding is completely anti-democratic, and I am fully with TSP on this.
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The Church of Satan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1312
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:41 pm

Baedan wrote:Have you read TNP's initial statement? I think it might clear up some of your misconceptions.

What's so unclear? That TNP thinks it's okay to spit all over the legacy of Shizensky, Renegade Islands, and everything it stood for by deciding that a quorum raid against the region was okay? What part of that did I miss? or is it that TNP wouldn't have had the balls to do that just a few short years ago when the region would have been able to defend itself? Because it's pretty clear that TNP's principles took a backseat in this instance.
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Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

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Parxland
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Posts: 387
Founded: Apr 21, 2020
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Parxland » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:58 pm

The Python wrote:
I agree with W&S here. Approval raiding is completely anti-democratic, and I am fully with TSP on this.


"Anti-democratic"? Try "cheating".
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Kranostav
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Posts: 329
Founded: Apr 01, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kranostav » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:03 pm

The Python wrote:
Witchcraft and Sorcery wrote:snip


I agree with W&S here. Approval raiding is completely anti-democratic, and I am fully with TSP on this.


Just a friendly reminder that regions such as CCD who have actively attempted to undermine the democracy of TNP and violate our sovereignty are not afforded the same good faith other regions have.

In all of my service, TNP has only ever Qraided for the purposes of anti-fash and/or where an enemy of TNP is attempting to advertise their existence by way of the WA. A stomp is not sufficient, CCD does not deserve the ability to advertise their existence as a fascist region who openly spread fascism and is now on a bullshit redemption arc to do the same.
Non-compliance is lame and you should feel bad
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Kranostav
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Posts: 329
Founded: Apr 01, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kranostav » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:04 pm

Parxland wrote:
The Python wrote:
I agree with W&S here. Approval raiding is completely anti-democratic, and I am fully with TSP on this.


"Anti-democratic"? Try "cheating".

TIL basic game mechanics are now cheating. Nice.
Non-compliance is lame and you should feel bad
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Goobergunchia
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Posts: 1753
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Goobergunchia » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:20 pm

Kranostav wrote:Just a friendly reminder that regions such as CCD who have actively attempted to undermine the democracy of TNP and violate our sovereignty are not afforded the same good faith other regions have.


This is, quite frankly, deflection. We are not talking about an invasion of CCD or any other fascist region. We are talking about invasions of multiple regions that have been friendly with TNP for many years for the "crime" of approving a proposal that TNP opposes. Are you really suggesting that the likes of Renegade Islands Alliance, The Moon, and North Pacific are not entitled to a presumption of good faith? Is the North Pacific's position that it is okay to invade one's friends solely over honest disagreements?
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The Church of Satan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1312
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:29 pm

Goobergunchia wrote:
Kranostav wrote:Just a friendly reminder that regions such as CCD who have actively attempted to undermine the democracy of TNP and violate our sovereignty are not afforded the same good faith other regions have.


This is, quite frankly, deflection. We are not talking about an invasion of CCD or any other fascist region. We are talking about invasions of multiple regions that have been friendly with TNP for many years for the "crime" of approving a proposal that TNP opposes. Are you really suggesting that the likes of Renegade Islands Alliance, The Moon, and North Pacific are not entitled to a presumption of good faith? Is the North Pacific's position that it is okay to invade one's friends solely over honest disagreements?

or only until it becomes inconvenient for them, as was shown in this instance.
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Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:36 pm

Kranostav wrote:In all of my service, TNP has only ever Qraided for the purposes of anti-fash and/or where an enemy of TNP is attempting to advertise their existence by way of the WA. A stomp is not sufficient, CCD does not deserve the ability to advertise their existence as a fascist region who openly spread fascism and is now on a bullshit redemption arc to do the same.


In response to this, I'll just echo what Sedge said:
Sedgistan wrote:CCD has made an effort to right some of its (many) wrongs over the last few months, and while I get treating them with suspicion, completely disregarding any of the progress they have made does no favours to the anti-fascist cause. Players and communities can change their outlook, and continuing to beat them with the Liberation/ostracisation stick whilst refusing to even entertain the carrot of no longer treating them as fascist identifiers, is not conducive to encouraging others to change their ways.


Of course, if TNP has any substantive evidence that CCD's efforts to change are bullshit, I'm more than eager to see them.
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Bobberino
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 45
Founded: Mar 16, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Bobberino » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:40 pm

Parxland wrote:
The Python wrote:
I agree with W&S here. Approval raiding is completely anti-democratic, and I am fully with TSP on this.


"Anti-democratic"? Try "cheating".


How is a built-in, very basic game mechanic cheating? Tell me like I'm 5, oh wise one.
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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:44 pm

Bobberino wrote:
Parxland wrote:
"Anti-democratic"? Try "cheating".


How is a built-in, very basic game mechanic cheating? Tell me like I'm 5, oh wise one.

Folks, there's a topic covering this in Technical. Please, take discussion about the legality of quorum raiding there instead of driving the discussion away from how shaky TNP's position is.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Comfed
Diplomat
 
Posts: 881
Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:46 pm

RiderSyl wrote:
Bobberino wrote:
How is a built-in, very basic game mechanic cheating? Tell me like I'm 5, oh wise one.

Folks, there's a topic covering this in Technical. Please, take discussion about the legality of quorum raiding there instead of driving the discussion away from how shaky TNP's position is.

Attacking a fascist region that has violated our sovereignty is a shaky position, is it?
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Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:49 pm

Comfed wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:Folks, there's a topic covering this in Technical. Please, take discussion about the legality of quorum raiding there instead of driving the discussion away from how shaky TNP's position is.

Attacking a fascist region that has violated our sovereignty is a shaky position, is it?

1. It's not a fascist region.
2. So it is about their violation of TNP sovereignty? Funny, I didn't see that in the statement.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Comfed
Diplomat
 
Posts: 881
Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:53 pm

RiderSyl wrote:
Comfed wrote:Attacking a fascist region that has violated our sovereignty is a shaky position, is it?

1. It's not a fascist region.
2. So it is about their violation of TNP sovereignty? Funny, I didn't see that in the statement.

No, it’s about keeping fascists who have violated our sovereignty off the floor of the WA.
Mall:
Best part about being a mod was engaging in normal player behavior and getting accused of abuse
"You think this is abuse? I'll SHOW you abuse."
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

Put this in your sig if you passed biology and know that gender and sex are not the same thing.

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Honeydewistania
Minister
 
Posts: 2731
Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:58 pm

Comfed wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:Folks, there's a topic covering this in Technical. Please, take discussion about the legality of quorum raiding there instead of driving the discussion away from how shaky TNP's position is.

Attacking a fascist region that has violated our sovereignty is a shaky position, is it?

Which one of the 20+ regions quorum raided were "fascist region[s]" who violated your sovereignty?
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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:58 pm

Comfed wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:1. It's not a fascist region.
2. So it is about their violation of TNP sovereignty? Funny, I didn't see that in the statement.

No, it’s about keeping fascists who have violated our sovereignty off the floor of the WA.

Well that can't be what it's about, because CCD isn't fascist anymore, and TNP never cited any violation of sovereignty in their statement.

Look, I fought CCD like hell when they were fascist, and now I'm being forced into advocating for them here now that they're in the midst of reforming, all because TNP has decided to toss out reality in favor of political expediency.

I mentioned earlier that if TNP had substantive evidence of CCD's reformation being a sham, I'd like to see it. Well, we're getting closer and closer to it needing to be seen.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Comfed
Diplomat
 
Posts: 881
Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:07 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:
Comfed wrote:Attacking a fascist region that has violated our sovereignty is a shaky position, is it?

Which one of the 20+ regions quorum raided were "fascist region[s]" who violated your sovereignty?

None of them were fascist (well, I expect some where, but not most) and none have violated our sovereignty. They approved a proposal to legitimize CCD. This was an operation against that proposal.
RiderSyl wrote:
Comfed wrote:No, it’s about keeping fascists who have violated our sovereignty off the floor of the WA.

Well that can't be what it's about, because CCD isn't fascist anymore, and TNP never cited any violation of sovereignty in their statement.

Look, I fought CCD like hell when they were fascist, and now I'm being forced into advocating for them here now that they're in the midst of reforming, all because TNP has decided to toss out reality in favor of political expediency.

I mentioned earlier that if TNP had substantive evidence of CCD's reformation being a sham, I'd like to see it. Well, we're getting closer and closer to it needing to be seen.

One statement does not an innocent region make. The same people are in charge. The burden of proof falls on them to prove they aren’t fascist.
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Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

Put this in your sig if you passed biology and know that gender and sex are not the same thing.

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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:20 pm

Comfed wrote:One statement does not an innocent region make. The same people are in charge. The burden of proof falls on them to prove they aren’t fascist.

Like closing embassies with fascist regions?
Like setting up a report channel that serves to rid fascists from their community?
Like running antifascist operations against their former fascist allies?

Does that kind of stuff count?
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Comfed
Diplomat
 
Posts: 881
Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:28 pm

RiderSyl wrote:
Comfed wrote:One statement does not an innocent region make. The same people are in charge. The burden of proof falls on them to prove they aren’t fascist.

Like closing embassies with fascist regions?
You’ll notice it only happened after they got caught.
Like setting up a report channel that serves to rid fascists from their community?
Who was removed from the region?
Like running antifascist operations against their former fascist allies?
Which regions, and what was their involvement?

Does that kind of stuff count?

Why, then, were they not removed from, say, the Civil Defence Siren?
Mall:
Best part about being a mod was engaging in normal player behavior and getting accused of abuse
"You think this is abuse? I'll SHOW you abuse."
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

Put this in your sig if you passed biology and know that gender and sex are not the same thing.

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Kranostav
Envoy
 
Posts: 329
Founded: Apr 01, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kranostav » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:52 pm

RiderSyl's perpetual effort to insist that a blatantly fascist
(even once blatant if you are convinced they no longer are) region is now on a totally innocent redemption arc with absolutely no bad intentions at all is quite amusing.
Last edited by Kranostav on Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Non-compliance is lame and you should feel bad
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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:54 pm

Comfed wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:Like closing embassies with fascist regions?
You’ll notice it only happened after they got caught.


Dude, you're talking to me, the one that was in CCD-related threads mouthing off to them more than literally anyone else on the site. They got caught years ago when they first came onto the scene trying to self-Commend for "spreading fascism" and spent the next few years in varying levels of "there's no real OOC fascism, you're making it up" style denial. It didn't only happen after they caught. I wish it had happened after they got caught. No, it finally happened after they joined an interregional alliance with the likes of Farkasfalka and CCD ventured into *those* Discords, and finally backed away from the deep end.

Comfed wrote:Who was removed from the region?

Comfed wrote:Which regions, and what was their involvement?

I think CCD's own should respond to this, not me, as they'll be better equipped to answer these questions accurately.

Comfed wrote:Why, then, were they not removed from, say, the Civil Defence Siren?

Doubts about if they'd really changed, and other factors I'm not aware of, I'm sure.
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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:56 pm

Kranostav wrote:RiderSyl's perpetual effort to insist that a blatantly fascist
(even once blatant if you are convinced they no longer are) region is now on a totally innocent redemption arc with absolutely no bad intentions at all is quite amusing.

Laugh it up. I believe that a once-fascist region that's redeeming themselves, even for selfish reasons, is better than a relapsing fascist region that's decided there's no point in trying redemption if this is the kind of shit it leads to.
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Parxland
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 387
Founded: Apr 21, 2020
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Parxland » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:27 pm

Crazy girl wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:When was The Moon an ally of The North Pacific?


I always considered the North Pacific to be a friend and ally of myself (considering I helped train the first iteration of the NPA, not to mention operation puppet master and general support and friendly relations over the years), and I thought the North Pacific thought the same of me.


You have an unrealistic perception of people if you think that's ever true.
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Varanius
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 184
Founded: Sep 18, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Varanius » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:41 pm

Parxland wrote:
The Python wrote:
I agree with W&S here. Approval raiding is completely anti-democratic, and I am fully with TSP on this.


"Anti-democratic"? Try "cheating".

It’s perfectly within the rules of the game, you disliking it doesn’t change that. You can use as many scare words as you’d like, it’s never going to convince the individuals and regions who quorum raid to stop using a perfectly reasonable tactic.
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Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

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Makdon
Envoy
 
Posts: 308
Founded: Nov 14, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Makdon » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:00 pm

Idk if CCD is still fascist, not really much way for me to know without putting a puppet in and hanging around, and I'm far to lazy for that. They're clearly making a public effort to appear antifascist, how legitimate it is is anyone's guess. However, err on the side of caution all you like, whether CCD remains fascist isn't really the point of these complaints (at least that's the way I'm reading most of them) and is just a stupid waste of time to discuss. What's annoying is that the NPA tipped delegates who they had significant history could've easily just dmed/tged without causing them the annoyance of getting raided. Why TNP's leadership didn't do this we'll never know, but I do wish ya'll had at least justified it with their attempted coup of TNP instead something so contentious, like CCD's political stance. I'm a TNP citizen, and I'm more than happy to see CCD not getting public attention, but both the methodology and optics of this are questionable.

Anyways, not a great look for the NPA when you tip delegates who have participated in antifascist operations in the name of antifascism. Not much doubt they would've removed their approval if told what they were getting into.
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North Prarie
Diplomat
 
Posts: 932
Founded: Nov 04, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby North Prarie » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:05 pm

Comfed wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:Folks, there's a topic covering this in Technical. Please, take discussion about the legality of quorum raiding there instead of driving the discussion away from how shaky TNP's position is.

Attacking a fascist region that has violated our sovereignty is a shaky position, is it?

You guys attacked CCD? Huh. Must have missed that part.
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