Of course it doesn't. Banning raiders, however, does, and this looks a lot like that.
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by Sandaoguo » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:31 pm
A Bloodred Moon wrote:It is fruitless to defend your own statements?
by Evil Wolf » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:44 am
Sandaoguo wrote: Even if we were to take Evil Wolf and Souls up on their advice to just ban all raiders because they're raiders (which is never going to happen, much to your chagrin!), the response here wouldn't be, "Oh that totally makes sense. Good on you for being so straight-forward TSP!" No, the response would predictably be that we're anti-democratic, corrupt defenders, spreading toxic hate of raiders. (Those internally contradicting arguments I talked about: TSP is being anti-democratic but should just ban raiders because they're raiders.)
Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.
by The Church of Satan » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:03 am
Sandaoguo wrote:Even if we were to take Evil Wolf and Souls up on their advice to just ban all raiders because they're raiders (which is never going to happen, much to your chagrin!), the response here wouldn't be, "Oh that totally makes sense. Good on you for being so straight-forward TSP!" No, the response would predictably be that we're anti-democratic, corrupt defenders, spreading toxic hate of raiders. (Those internally contradicting arguments I talked about: TSP is being anti-democratic but should just ban raiders because they're raiders.)
by Numero Capitan » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:46 am
Lord Dominator wrote:Numero Capitan wrote: Anyone is welcome in TSP should they want to be a part of that great community, but current TBH members would have to choose to end their ties with TBH to do so - which is an unfortunate consequence of the actions of Black Hawks and no-one else.
I'm sure our members will be just lining up to join
by Comfed » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:18 am
The Church of Satan wrote:Sandaoguo wrote:Even if we were to take Evil Wolf and Souls up on their advice to just ban all raiders because they're raiders (which is never going to happen, much to your chagrin!), the response here wouldn't be, "Oh that totally makes sense. Good on you for being so straight-forward TSP!" No, the response would predictably be that we're anti-democratic, corrupt defenders, spreading toxic hate of raiders. (Those internally contradicting arguments I talked about: TSP is being anti-democratic but should just ban raiders because they're raiders.)
Why not? XKI closed their doors to raiders like, what, 16 years ago? Heck, didn't Balder close their doors to defenders a long time ago? Go ahead, you guys wouldn't be the first.
by Lord Dominator » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:21 am
but I guess it gives the Cabinet the legal justification for quick action against any future CCD-level attempts at subterfuge TBH's members decide to undertake without consequence.
by Sandaoguo » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:30 am
Evil Wolf wrote:Funny, TSP raised many of the same points explaining why they would never pick sides and officially declare themselves defender. We all saw out that lie played out.
Evil Wolf wrote:How are those regions going to respond when you tell them their citizens are banned from Joint Ops?
The Church of Satan wrote:Why not? XKI closed their doors to raiders like, what, 16 years ago? Heck, didn't Balder close their doors to defenders a long time ago? Go ahead, you guys wouldn't be the first.
by Jakker » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:06 am
Sandaoguo wrote:The goal was never a fully defender TSP, because that was viewed as unobtainable even if ideal. You'll probably call that splitting hairs, but you really give me and others too much credit. Why would we have waited 4 more years after detangling TSP from its imperialist/raider alliances to propose officially going defender? If that was the goal all along, seems like if we could accomplish discrediting Independence in just 2 years, we would accelerate a "full defenderization" plan, not slow down. In reality, after it was clear we had defeated Independent-imperialism in TSP, I took a break from running for Cabinet and didn't run for any elected office until early 2018. Strange strategy for someone who hadn't accomplished their real goal!
At the time, the attacks against the anti-imperialist and anti-Independence policies I was pursuing was that, say, the alliances with TRR and Lazarus were a prelude to an imminent purge of non-defenders and a defender takeover of TSP. Which, again, was laughable at the time
Because if we believed a fully defender TSP was unobtainable, the idea of banning all raiders would never have even been on our minds. I doubt you'll believe me, but it is what it is.
The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.
by Sandaoguo » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:03 pm
Jakker wrote:I mean aren't you just proving that there have been specific people in TSP, including yourself, that have actively tried to pursue agendas that benefitted them? You even are saying that you and others only did not push TSP towards being totally defender at the time because you regarded it as unobtainable.
Jakker wrote:It also sounds like you would be for following in XKI's footsteps but are just worried how others would view TSP. Didn't you push to isolate TSP's FA from gameplay because of your negative views of the community? Sounds like there is a lot of value in others holding a region accountable.
Jakker wrote:But going against SC proposals of raiders because they are raiders even if people believe the players have earned it.
Jakker wrote:Or formally requesting that any information about HEM's time in TSP in their commendation be removed because of events that happened after the fact.
by Lord Dominator » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:23 pm
Sandaoguo wrote:Isn't that what we created the Gameplay Awards for?
by Sandaoguo » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:30 pm
by Ever-Wandering Souls » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:37 pm
Sandaoguo wrote:and whatever time it may or may not be enjoying as the preeminent raider org of today, it’s influence and membership will wax and wane the same as any other org. TSP, however, will always be here as a democratic GCR.
The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258
Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative
by Lord Dominator » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:52 pm
by The Church of Satan » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:05 pm
Sandaoguo wrote:Considering how XKI is vilified by GP today the exact way I just described, this isn't the stinging response you imagine it is!
by Comfed » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:39 pm
The Church of Satan wrote:Sandaoguo wrote:Considering how XKI is vilified by GP today the exact way I just described, this isn't the stinging response you imagine it is!
It wasn't meant to be a stinging response, nor was it intended to vilify XKI. It was a statement of fact. If anything I'd argue that XKI is doing the best it ever has since Grub's absence allowed the region to break out of its shell.
TSP could easily purge all raiders from itself and still be democratic. All it takes is a bill and enough voters to push it through. That's as democratic as it gets.
by The Church of Satan » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:07 pm
Comfed wrote:It could be democratic in name, but banning an ideology doesn't sound like democracy, it sounds like authoritarianism.
by Evil Wolf » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:18 pm
Sandaoguo wrote: Personally my time as MoFA overseeing the dismantling of our Independent-imperialist alignment nearly destroyed my ability to play NationStates altogether.
Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.
by RiderSyl » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:51 am
Sandaoguo wrote:Outright banning raiders just because they're raiders would violate democratic principles, which is why I've never proposed a bill in the Assembly to do so. Banning specific groups that have directly attempted to infiltrate and overturn TSP democracy is not violating any democratic principles-- it's actually protecting and defending them. And that's good security policy no matter what R/D alignment that group might have.
by Jakker » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:47 am
RiderSyl wrote:By worrying about violating democratic principles when dealing with an ideology that seeks to destroy you, you are making your region less secure.
Your commitment to NS Democracy may be a strength in GCR politics, Glen, but it's a weakness in NSGP and it always will be.
The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.
by RiderSyl » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:26 am
Jakker wrote:It is quite the stretch to say that the ideology of raiders is seeking to destroy TSP or any GCR.
Jakker wrote:I am sure there are raiders out there who would want to see TSP reform in various ways
Jakker wrote:For years, OC was part of TSP and did not want to see TSP raided.
Jakker wrote:and I am sure there are just as many non-raiders who also would like the same.
Jakker wrote:Just like there have been many coups by non-raiders as there has been involving/supported by raiders.
Jakker wrote:My point is people love to always point fingers at raiders as the bad people who have bad intentions. Not only is that a terrible generalization, I would argue that there are often just as many, if not more, people who are non-raiders with just as bad, if not worse, intentions.
by Sandaoguo » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:53 am
Evil Wolf wrote:Sandaoguo wrote: Personally my time as MoFA overseeing the dismantling of our Independent-imperialist alignment nearly destroyed my ability to play NationStates altogether.
Nice to see you finally admit to what you so fiercely denied at the time, that your actions were purely to push your personal defender ideals rather than for the real benefit of the region. The truth weasels its way out, just takes years sometimes.
Jakker wrote:RiderSyl wrote:By worrying about violating democratic principles when dealing with an ideology that seeks to destroy you, you are making your region less secure.
Your commitment to NS Democracy may be a strength in GCR politics, Glen, but it's a weakness in NSGP and it always will be.
It is quite the stretch to say that the ideology of raiders is seeking to destroy TSP or any GCR. I am sure there are raiders out there who would want to see TSP reform in various ways and I am sure there are just as many non-raiders who also would like the same. Just like there have been many coups by non-raiders as there has been involving/supported by raiders. For years, OC was part of TSP and did not want to see TSP raided. My point is people love to always point fingers at raiders as the bad people who have bad intentions. Not only is that a terrible generalization, I would argue that there are often just as many, if not more, people who are non-raiders with just as bad, if not worse, intentions.
by Jakker » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:43 am
RiderSyl wrote:Jakker wrote:My point is people love to always point fingers at raiders as the bad people who have bad intentions. Not only is that a terrible generalization, I would argue that there are often just as many, if not more, people who are non-raiders with just as bad, if not worse, intentions.
Here, it's not a terrible generalization, it's just pointing at the villain and saying "Hey, they're evil". Raiders are the villains of NSGP, and more often than not harmful to regional security if the region qualifies as a target. As for there being non-raiders with bad or worse intentions... sure, but that's not what this discussion is about, is it?
The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.
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