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Embassy of the South Pacific | Détente with Balder

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
Not a roleplaying forum.

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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6551
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:48 am

Numero Capitan wrote: Anyone is welcome in TSP should they want to be a part of that great community, but current TBH members would have to choose to end their ties with TBH to do so - which is an unfortunate consequence of the actions of Black Hawks and no-one else.

I'm sure our members will be just lining up to join :roll:

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A Bloodred Moon
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Posts: 165
Founded: Jan 13, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby A Bloodred Moon » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:24 am

Numero Capitan wrote:Raiders like Southern Bellz and Todd McCloud helped build the strong institutions that TSP benefits from today and helped expand that democracy and freedom.

Yeah, I'm sure they feel very welcome these days. And historically speaking, TSP also functioned as independent. Do you see them act like independents? No? Could it be a sign that times have changed, and that TSP has changed? Claiming "raiders are welcome because they were welcome in an almost entirely different TSP" is laughable.

What has changed is the consensus view towards the raiding sphere and raiding as a result of the actions of those within it.

"We are very inclusive of all alignments. But those darn raiders..."

The region contains plenty of raider-leaning individuals who are nothing but a positive contribution to the community.

Such as...?

TBH members will unfortunately be viewed with suspicion in TSP because of the actions of their members over the last few months as well as the held views/ambitions of their leaders/Council advisors that prompted the wider rejection of the raiding sphere in TSP in years gone by.

I'd argue it says something about the culture in TSP if all it takes for them to start distrusting an entire organisation are the actions of two puppets, actions which involved nothing more than voting on an RMB. If it takes so very little to get TSPers to view others with suspicion, it is no wonder they turned defender. As for your claim that it was the "views/ambitions of [TBH's] leaders" that led to TSP adopting the defender label, are we going with the idea that this hadn't been coming for years? Practically everyone knew that it would happen. Red Phone might have accelerated the process, but TSP already were defender-leaning before their official resolution labelling them defender, before Red Phone.
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Unibot III
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Posts: 6069
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:38 am

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Unibot III wrote:Any reasonable person can draw a straight line of events from 2013 to 2020 of TBH acting against TSP’s security and integrity. That kind of pattern is how you establish grounds for proscription.



Image


I'm chuffed but you give me too much credit. I'm just a bit confused how you can seriously argue that TBH's actions aren't grounds for proscription?

You proudly co-ran a coup in TSP. Purged TSPers. You tried to meddle in their elections, their votes, you've committed espinoge, and have continued to entertain bad coup/subversion/vexation plots against TSP like you're Wily Coyote.

This is a dumb conversation. DUMB. Dumb, dumb, dumb. There are some GP conversations that are too dumb and too disingenuous to engage with further. Of course, TBH is being proscribed by TSP. You've been screwing around with TSP for seven years!!
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of TRR | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // Collected works // The Gameplay Alignment Test //
Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78

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Baedan
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Posts: 100
Founded: Jan 02, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Baedan » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:44 am

it doesn't matter whether or not the proscription of the Black Hawks is justified. It's blatantly illegal. the actions of individuals within the black hawks to meddle in elections are not acts of hostility. TSP's own high court already determined that the Red Phone intel wasn't evidence of hostility either. there might be some proscription of TBH that is justified, but this one definitely isn't
also, espinoge is not an act of hostility under the proscription act :p
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The Moonstar
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Posts: 41
Founded: Apr 21, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Moonstar » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:54 am

Unibot III wrote:This is a dumb conversation. DUMB. Dumb, dumb, dumb. There are some GP conversations that are too dumb and too disingenuous to engage with further. Of course, TBH is being proscribed by TSP. You've been screwing around with TSP for seven years!!

If that's the case why did TSP be dumb dumb and not ya know proscribe them like about 6 and a half years ago? :blink: :eyebrow:
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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6545
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:24 pm

The Moonstar wrote:
Unibot III wrote:This is a dumb conversation. DUMB. Dumb, dumb, dumb. There are some GP conversations that are too dumb and too disingenuous to engage with further. Of course, TBH is being proscribed by TSP. You've been screwing around with TSP for seven years!!

If that's the case why did TSP be dumb dumb and not ya know proscribe them like about 6 and a half years ago? :blink: :eyebrow:


Is this mek? Lol.

Point in essence, though. If you're arguing that MiloCoup was justification alone (not even an argument TSP's actual government is making, whether or not you chat about it with their admins), then innit a bit overdue?

I think you're also reading me and others disingenuously Uni. We've been quite clear that the *act* is obvious, it's just that the *excuse* is horseshit, whipped up to push "TBH bad" instead of just focusing on the fact we've got diametrically opposed alignments, the end.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6069
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:57 pm

The Moonstar wrote:
Unibot III wrote:This is a dumb conversation. DUMB. Dumb, dumb, dumb. There are some GP conversations that are too dumb and too disingenuous to engage with further. Of course, TBH is being proscribed by TSP. You've been screwing around with TSP for seven years!!

If that's the case why did TSP be dumb dumb and not ya know proscribe them like about 6 and a half years ago? :blink: :eyebrow:


I think the reason is because it wasn't a politically viable option in 2013 due to the politics of the Cold War.

Even though TBH co-ran the coup against TSP, you really couldn't proscribe an invader group without that decision being analyzed through the lens of what that decision would mean for TSP's independence and neutrality.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
The Moonstar wrote:If that's the case why did TSP be dumb dumb and not ya know proscribe them like about 6 and a half years ago? :blink: :eyebrow:


Is this mek? Lol.

Point in essence, though. If you're arguing that MiloCoup was justification alone (not even an argument TSP's actual government is making, whether or not you chat about it with their admins), then innit a bit overdue?

I think you're also reading me and others disingenuously Uni. We've been quite clear that the *act* is obvious, it's just that the *excuse* is horseshit, whipped up to push "TBH bad" instead of just focusing on the fact we've got diametrically opposed alignments, the end.


The decision is overdue. I can understand the distinction you're making between agreeing that TBH has acted against TSP's interests and believing that a proscription has been thoroughly justified. But beyond that, the proscription is justified. It was justified years ago.

I don't think this is just a matter of having different alignments: TBH has made a conscious choice to attack TSP repeatedly. In the past, internal politics actually forced TSP to turn a blind eye to these transgressions: to just absolve TBH (and others) rather than doing the more difficult thing of coming to terms realistically with how to prosecute TSP's attackers when it risked destablizing its political neutrality.

Now that TSP is no longer an independentist region, it can actually proscribe an invader organization like TBH that's continued to attack/undermine TSP, without the domestic political crisis that would have been expected in the past.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of TRR | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // Collected works // The Gameplay Alignment Test //
Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78

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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Posts: 6545
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:04 pm

Is the choice by TSP to let Unibot provide their primary defense, without comment from them, related or unrelated to the part where the only other attempt at defense resulted in Roavin repeatedly demeaning one of your branches of government?
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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The Moonstar
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 41
Founded: Apr 21, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Moonstar » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:09 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
The Moonstar wrote:If that's the case why did TSP be dumb dumb and not ya know proscribe them like about 6 and a half years ago? :blink: :eyebrow:


Is this mek? Lol.

Are you implying all Korean female flagged nations mean it's Mek? Cause there is Tupe, and Poppy, and Community, and some others.
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Unibot III
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Posts: 6069
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:41 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Is the choice by TSP to let Unibot provide their primary defense, without comment from them, related or unrelated to the part where the only other attempt at defense resulted in Roavin repeatedly demeaning one of your branches of government?



Hahaha. Official TSP Legal Counsel: Rudy Giuliani. :p

I think it means they don’t care, mate!!
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of TRR | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // Collected works // The Gameplay Alignment Test //
Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78

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North Prarie
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Posts: 932
Founded: Nov 04, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby North Prarie » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:45 pm

Comfed wrote:So basically, because some low-ranking people did stuff they weren't supposed to do and got reprimanded for it, and there was a chat log from two years ago - you proscribe them without even bothering to consult the citizens or the Assembly. Okay.

Because, what I see is not a measure to keep TSP safe but a witch hunt. You could try to at least be diplomatic with them.

There is literally nothing in the Proscription Act that says that anyone, including the Assembly, should be consulted in issuing a proscription, and there is no precedent for it, but alright. Feel free to continue making up stuff to make TSP look bad.
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Comfed
Diplomat
 
Posts: 881
Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:49 pm

North Prarie wrote:
Comfed wrote:So basically, because some low-ranking people did stuff they weren't supposed to do and got reprimanded for it, and there was a chat log from two years ago - you proscribe them without even bothering to consult the citizens or the Assembly. Okay.

Because, what I see is not a measure to keep TSP safe but a witch hunt. You could try to at least be diplomatic with them.

There is literally nothing in the Proscription Act that says that anyone, including the Assembly, should be consulted in issuing a proscription, and there is no precedent for it, but alright. Feel free to continue making up stuff to make TSP look bad.

I didn’t say they had to, but it does rather look bad, especially considering that you have not presented satisfactory evidence that TBH government (i.e. the Council of Hawks) are or have recently plotted to overthrow the Coalition.
Mall:
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Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

Put this in your sig if you passed biology and know that gender and sex are not the same thing.

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A Bloodred Moon
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Posts: 165
Founded: Jan 13, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby A Bloodred Moon » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:52 pm

North Prarie wrote:Feel free to continue making up stuff to make TSP look bad.

Hardly necessary. They made a statement, and now seem to be unable to defend their statement. Besides, if you’re going to make a statement filled with righteous outrage, it should not come as a surprise people will disagree and, perhaps shockingly, criticise it.

Unless I am very much mistaken, the person you are responding to is, in fact, a TSPer. But I am sure his opinion matters not if he disagrees with your righteous outrage, and it immediately means he has to be making things up to make TSP look bad.
Armaros

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RiderSyl
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Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:27 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:We've been quite clear that the *act* is obvious, it's just that the *excuse* is horseshit, whipped up to push "TBH bad" instead of just focusing on the fact we've got diametrically opposed alignments, the end.


This perfectly sums up my stance on all this. TSP has a bad habit of playing politics in situations where they simply don't need to.
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Devi
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Posts: 120
Founded: Nov 09, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Devi » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:07 am

Somehow not surprising to see Unibot clamouring to defend one of the very few regions where his opinion's valued enough to warrant a private discord server :p

i imagine the lack of official tsp defense is the usual thing GCRs do where they do something dumb, hide behind the flimsiest of justifications, and then ignore any commentary until the controversy dies down because they *know* they'll still have relevancy by virtue of being large. it's as pathetic as it is predictable :blush:
any opinions stated are definitely 100% representative of TBH and every other region i'm a part of :)

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Unibot III
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Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:27 am

Devi wrote:Somehow not surprising to see Unibot clamouring to defend one of the very few regions where his opinion's valued enough to warrant a private discord server :p


I ain't clamouring to do shit and I've never known G-R to value my opinion on anything. :P
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of TRR | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // Collected works // The Gameplay Alignment Test //
Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78

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Drop Your Pants
Senator
 
Posts: 3720
Founded: Apr 17, 2005
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Drop Your Pants » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:45 pm

Devi wrote:i imagine the lack of official tsp defense is the usual thing GCRs do where they do something dumb, hide behind the flimsiest of justifications, and then ignore any commentary until the controversy dies down because they *know* they'll still have relevancy by virtue of being large. it's as pathetic as it is predictable :blush:

Thats not just limited to GCR's, many notable UCR's (like TBH for instance) are guilty of the same thing. But you must realise, this is the Gameplay forum. Announcements are made but no one really cares about anyones opinion on them. We're not even a peanut gallery anymore, we're peanut shells :lol:
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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6545
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:52 pm

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Devi wrote:i imagine the lack of official tsp defense is the usual thing GCRs do where they do something dumb, hide behind the flimsiest of justifications, and then ignore any commentary until the controversy dies down because they *know* they'll still have relevancy by virtue of being large. it's as pathetic as it is predictable :blush:

Thats not just limited to GCR's, many notable UCR's (like TBH for instance) are guilty of the same thing. But you must realise, this is the Gameplay forum. Announcements are made but no one really cares about anyones opinion on them. We're not even a peanut gallery anymore, we're peanut shells :lol:


"Why is gameplay dead?"

<fire amd forget statements>

"Gosh gameplay forums are so dead!"




That's a nice 'no u' but as far as I can recall going back six years or so, we reply endlessly :P
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Sandaoguo
Envoy
 
Posts: 283
Founded: Apr 07, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Sandaoguo » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:01 pm

I think, perhaps, most of us just know that entering into a debate with you all is a fruitless endeavor, particularly when half the posts here are offering internally contradicting arguments.

I would certainly like it if we could engage in a substantive debate about why TBH as a whole is a threat. But we've had that debate before, and it just devolved into lying, bad faith, and trollish memeing. So what's the point? The questions about why TBH is a threat, why justices Kris and Belschaft were wrong, and why the CRS & Cabinet have acted now are all answered in the statement and the ancillary posts linked in it.

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Drop Your Pants
Senator
 
Posts: 3720
Founded: Apr 17, 2005
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Drop Your Pants » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:21 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:"Why is gameplay dead?"
<fire amd forget statements>
"Gosh gameplay forums are so dead!"


That's a nice 'no u' but as far as I can recall going back six years or so, we reply endlessly :P

I'm not complaining that GP is dead, it's good that we're dead. We were once a very toxic community to each other a year or so ago, now it's generally moved to Discord poking.

Edited the quote to remove the spaces.
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A Bloodred Moon
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 165
Founded: Jan 13, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby A Bloodred Moon » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:43 pm

Sandaoguo wrote:I think, perhaps, most of us just know that entering into a debate with you all is a fruitless endeavor, particularly when half the posts here are offering internally contradicting arguments.

It is fruitless to defend your own statements? Well, I suppose with this particular statement it might be fruitless - but then, might I suggest you do not post such a thin excuse for a statement? In fact, if you don’t honestly expect to be able to defend your statements or even refuse to answer criticism, why post a statement at all? Could it be that the South Pacific attempted to post the statement to yell for attention, found to their unfortunate surprise that their statement was not quite as sound as they believed it to be, and now refuse to engage in a discussion they’re afraid they’ll lose?

I would certainly like it if we could engage in a substantive debate about why TBH as a whole is a threat.

Be my guest, I’d say. The Cabinet doesn’t seem to be able to properly explain their reasonings, so there’s no harm in trying.

So what's the point?

The same can be asked of the South Pacific’s decision to post a statement they are unwilling or unable to elaborate on.

The questions about why TBH is a threat, why justices Kris and Belschaft were wrong, and why the CRS & Cabinet have acted now are all answered in the statement and the ancillary posts linked in it.

“Please refer to our earlier statements which we can’t defend, thank you in advance”? Come now. If the statement was as flawless that it could address any and all concerns or questions, this thread would be a few pages shorter.
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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:35 pm

Sandaoguo wrote:I think, perhaps, most of us just know that entering into a debate with you all is a fruitless endeavor, particularly when half the posts here are offering internally contradicting arguments.

I would certainly like it if we could engage in a substantive debate about why TBH as a whole is a threat. But we've had that debate before, and it just devolved into lying, bad faith, and trollish memeing. So what's the point? The questions about why TBH is a threat, why justices Kris and Belschaft were wrong, and why the CRS & Cabinet have acted now are all answered in the statement and the ancillary posts linked in it.


TSP citing the stuff that happened during the Commend Twobagger vote as a reason behind the proscription? That's lying. That's bad faith. Do you understand why TSP tagging itself Defender was so celebrated here in this forum? It meant, conceptually, that TSP would stop doing this song and dance, and just be direct in its external policy decisions. I guess we all forgot that it would take a while before y'all in TSP realized you don't have to trot out bullshit justifications for your actions anymore. You're a Defender region. That's all the justification you need to be anti-raider.
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Honeydewistania
Minister
 
Posts: 2731
Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:54 pm

Comfed wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Defender region extends ban to most raiders, world shocked.

You forgot the part where they’re a democratic region that guarantees freedom of expression and conscience.

Have your opinion on this and whatever, but this is in no way violating one's freedom of expression or conscience.
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Drop Your Pants wrote:Thats not just limited to GCR's, many notable UCR's (like TBH for instance) are guilty of the same thing. But you must realise, this is the Gameplay forum. Announcements are made but no one really cares about anyones opinion on them. We're not even a peanut gallery anymore, we're peanut shells :lol:


"Why is gameplay dead?"

<fire amd forget statements>

"Gosh gameplay forums are so dead!"




That's a nice 'no u' but as far as I can recall going back six years or so, we reply endlessly :P


Gameplay is dead? Great!
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Varanius
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 183
Founded: Sep 18, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Varanius » Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:44 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:Gameplay is dead? Great!

Oooo, can we kill the SC next?
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Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

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Drop Your Pants
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Posts: 3720
Founded: Apr 17, 2005
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Drop Your Pants » Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:50 pm

Varanius wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:Gameplay is dead? Great!

Oooo, can we kill the SC next?

But then Syl wouldn't have anywhere to be "cool". Lets keep SC.
Happily oblivious to NS Drama

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