Embassy of the South Pacific

[RiderSyl]

and this proscription is essentially fixing that. I can respect that. I really wish this announcement was just the Red Phone as justification... and that's it. The continued dramatization and exaggeration of a few Hawk noobs being noobish in TSP's Commend Twobagger vote cheapens it.

I wouldn't say it fixes it per se. It's still subject to the same judicial review. I don't think the High Court would be any more justified now in proscribing the entirety of the region now than they were in proscribing Souls then.

You're right about the Commend Twobagger """op""" tho, that's the lamest justification I've ever seen

Well, as someone that loves TBH and is both a former raider and defender, I have no idea what the High Court would have to be smoking to not proscribe TBH based on the Red Phone stuff. TSP is always going to be a prime target for TBH, because they're the defender GCR of Nationstates. That's just the facts. The sooner that proscription is applied, the sooner TSP can better insulate itself.

[Baedan]

Well, as someone that loves TBH and is both a former raider and defender, I have no idea what the High Court would have to be smoking to not proscribe TBH based on the Red Phone stuff. TSP is always going to be a prime target for TBH, because they're the defender GCR of Nationstates. That's just the facts. The sooner that proscription is applied, the sooner TSP can better insulate itself.

damn, whatever happened to raider unity

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Look, how hard is it to just say "We've firmly identified TSP as ideologically defender, plain and simple. Therefore, Raiders, including TBH, are not welcome here, plain and simple. Proscribed."

You don't *need* this trumped-up nonsense bullshit that can be picked apart like ducks on a bagel.

You didn't need to invite a situation where your justifications are 1) something TBH Council itself condemned and 2) something so full of holes that your own [whatever-position-Roavin-holds-these-days] has no choice but to publicly call your own high court shite to justify it. Twice.

As fun as that is for me, who's stopping you from just dropping the tissue-paper thin pretense and saying what you actually want to achieve here? I'm pretty sure XKI would kiss you, and anyone who would have cared already said their bit when you declared yourself defender in the first place.

All you're doing by coating it in half-baked excuses is opening yourselves up to ridicule. You're designing a death star with a baker's dozen thermal exhaust ports, rather than just install a few grates.

At risk of sounding like a broken record: for alllllllll the shit y'all gave Osiris in 2016 over "cutting ties because Glen said mean things about Osi," you should know better than to build a case on "Souls said bad things about TSP." Especially when, for the last time, you don't even need to. No one is buying the cover. Because it's crap. Why effing bother?

[WayNeacTia]

Look, how hard is it to just say "We've firmly identified TSP as ideologically defender, plain and simple. Therefore, Raiders, including TBH, are not welcome here, plain and simple. Proscribed."

Maybe they don't want Glenn's life long dream to come true?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Look, how hard is it to just say "We've firmly identified TSP as ideologically defender, plain and simple. Therefore, Raiders, including TBH, are not welcome here, plain and simple. Proscribed."

Maybe they don't want Glenn's life long dream to come true?

I mean, they already did the first part.

Statement from the Minister of Foreign Affairs
On the Passage of the Military Alignment Act

In a momentous vote on July 17, 2019, the Assembly of the Coalition of the South Pacific passed an omnibus package declaring our region officially aligned with defender principles.

...


Beginning immediately, the South Pacific Special Forces will dedicate itself to conducting defense operations and liberations.

...

The second part is what they should just...do normally, instead of calling a shark a fish and trying to put it in a ten gallon aquarium.

[Kyruption]

The second part is what they should just...do normally, instead of calling a shark a fish and trying to put it in a ten gallon aquarium.

As a goat, I don't have fins. And have copious amounts of tan lines. Now I'm going to have to do something about that if I'm going to be added to some sort of water feature. Smh.

[WayNeacTia]

Maybe they don't want Glenn's life long dream to come true?

I mean, they already did the first part.

Statement from the Minister of Foreign Affairs
On the Passage of the Military Alignment Act

In a momentous vote on July 17, 2019, the Assembly of the Coalition of the South Pacific passed an omnibus package declaring our region officially aligned with defender principles.

...


Beginning immediately, the South Pacific Special Forces will dedicate itself to conducting defense operations and liberations.

...

The second part is what they should just...do normally, instead of calling a shark a fish and trying to put it in a ten gallon aquarium.

Maybe it comes down to treaty obligations?

[Devi]

Maybe it comes down to treaty obligations?

can't just burn all their indie bridges entirely with the fenda crusading or they'll manage even less libs than they already do; and so the thinnest possible veneer of plausibility is required

[Lord Dominator]

Defender region extends ban to most raiders, world shocked.

[Evil Wolf]

At risk of sounding like a broken record: for alllllllll the shit y'all gave Osiris in 2016 over "cutting ties because Glen said mean things about Osi," you should know better than to build a case on "Souls said bad things about TSP." Especially when, for the last time, you don't even need to. No one is buying the cover. Because it's crap. Why effing bother?

It's because TSP has always pretended to be the most democratic region with the most freedom and is the most inclusive. They even promised that their move to being officially Defender would not mean raiders wouldn't be allowed to be citizens or banned from the region.

If they come out and just declare, de jure, what is already essentially de facto, suddenly they can't claim to be "the most inclusive free democracy with the most freedom" because they'll be the only GCR since 2006 to have formal laws banning outright a specific category of gameplayer. Suddenly they're officially one of the most oppressive GCRs, not "the most democratic".

Ideologically, I don't think they can take that blow to their ego.

[A Bloodred Moon]

Fellow South Pacificans,

The Coalition of the South Pacific takes its deliberative process seriously, just as we take our community’s security seriously. These decisions are never easy to come to, and we always look to do them the right way. To provide greater protection of the Coalition, the Cabinet and Council on Regional Security of the South Pacific have reached a consensus on our path forward in our dealings with The Black Hawks.

I am sure we are all shocked by this announcement. Which is to say, must we really get a long statement on something that boils down to "raiders bad, raiders banned"?

After their repeated attacks against our regional community, and the establishment, encouragement, and continuation of an organizational culture in The Black Hawks that shows no respect for the Coalition and our regional sovereignty,

As you've shown respect to theirs? How many TSPers have spied on TBH, how often did TSP know of spies within TBH? As it turns out, taking the defender side does not increase respect for your region's sovereignty among raiders. Shocking, perhaps, but by declaring yourself a defender region you, in fact, declare yourself an enemy of raiders. I would hope the South Pacific were aware of this before they were talked into adopting the defender label.

we have decided to invoke our authority under Article 3, Section 1 of the Proscription Act. Not only has there been a blatant manipulation of our democratic process, which has been robust despite these brazen attacks, but The Black Hawks have also attempted to manipulate the election of the Coalition’s regional leadership.

"Not only did two puppets vote on an RMB, we are also dragging up logs from two years ago, when a completely different Council led the Black Hawks!"

The Black Hawks’ leadership has not only met these actions with complacency and utter disregard,

Disappointingly enough, the Black Hawks did, in fact, release a statement and an apology to the South Pacific. I would hope you have read it?

but a culture exists among their membership that has never faced any punishment or even reprimand for them.

So now a vague "culture" that allegedly exists qualifies as a reason for proscription of an entire organisation? Is this "culture" proven or is it simply assumed to exist?

The only reasonable explanation for this is that The Black Hawks not only harbor but promote a culture opposed to the South Pacific’s right to govern itself freely and undermine our right to self-determination.

I think it is far more likely that the Cabinet was all too eager to install this proscription, and to that end looked to any excuse they could find. This is neither surprising nor particularly noteworthy, but the justification they used was a rather poor one.

With this in mind, we have concluded that The Black Hawks pose a direct and immediate threat to the Coalition of the South Pacific.

I am sure they are heartbroken and devastated by this news. One does have to wonder what constitutes and immediate threat, however - when I see two puppets voting on my RMB, I too tremble in my boots.

It is a shame that The Black Hawks meet our regional rights with such hostility, but their actions leave the Coalition with no choice but to issue a full proscription against The Black Hawks.

A laughably transparent lie. The Black Hawks as an organisation have not, in fact, reacted with "such hostility", even though they have every right to do since you declared yourselves their enemy through your use of the defender label.

It is good to see the South Pacific can still be relied on to create drama where there hardly was any, using whatever flimsy excuse they can dig up... including things from several years prior, contradicting their own court. But I guess that if the court doesn't serve the defender agenda of the cabinet, than it must be avoided entirely and it's decisions undermined as wrong. This is a rather thin excuse for the Cabinet and their defender friends in the region to use in their ideologically-driven war against raiders, rather than a legitimate "immediate threat" that you paint it as. It is not as if the Black Hawks have been particularly threatening to you and yours - after all, they did apologise to you for an incident not centrally organised by the Council, did they not? And if the actions of two individuals can be used to paint an entire organisation... does that mean that the SPSF participated in the raid on NationStates, given two of their members participated?

[WayNeacTia]

Defender region extends ban to most raiders, world shocked.

I do wonder how this will impact relations with Osiris, TNP, and The West Pacific? Those three regions have quite a few prominent raiders within their ranks. The fact The North Pacific can have an openly defender delegate and still raid, without all semblance of good order breaking down, just shows close mindedness of this decision.

[Unibot III]

They probably should have included the Milograd coup in the indictment. TBH provided troops & co-ran the delegate account. TBH’s leadership exclaimed “let’s f*** s*** up” publicly.

TSP has always been just another invasion target for TBH.

MiloCoup is so old that I can't even comment on it properly, because little native Souls was ejected from TSP during it for opposing it 8 years ago, and was recruited to Black Mesa Islands afterwards by Johto and Kanto (who was helping the resistance) And that was 2.5 years before I was on Council, for 5 years, before leaving it half a year ago.

What's next? Liz Lemons? "You were founded by Halc?" "Mall should resign?" We going to start rehashing Eastern Islands of Dharma?

MiloCoup’s perpetrators are still around. It would be deeply disingenuous to argue that 2013’s TBH is substantively different from 2020’s TBH; Jakker literally posted underneath you to correct the quote for the record.

Any reasonable person can draw a straight line of events from 2013 to 2020 of TBH acting against TSP’s security and integrity. That kind of pattern is how you establish grounds for proscription. A similar level of analysis was done when The Empire was proscribed — we had to examine not just what had happened recently but also a historical pattern of behaviour that warranted proscription.

I doubt very much that the WA poll incident in isolation would be worth a proscription but as a part of a series of actions against TSP, it was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

[Comfed]

Defender region extends ban to most raiders, world shocked.

You forgot the part where they’re a democratic region that guarantees freedom of expression and conscience.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Any reasonable person can draw a straight line of events from 2013 to 2020 of TBH acting against TSP’s security and integrity. That kind of pattern is how you establish grounds for proscription.

[Nova Vandalia]

It seems to me you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. You were able to weather the past attacks on your "sovereignty" pretty well, kudos for that, but in spite of being able to handle those you've decided to kick people out of your region forcing them to a choose a side? Which normally pushes folxs to the opposite side you want then to land on. This seems like it only punishing individuals rather than fixing any genuine issues in regards to security. I just offer caution and hope you all have thought about what you are doing and the effects losing some of the folx in your own region might have.

Either way not my monkeys, not my circus.

[Kringalia]

Yes, it was Red Phone (before the public release), and everybody else (including TNP) took action on it, it was just TSP High Court that didn't buy it. So yeah, the High Court was wrong on that one.

who are the current members of the High Court? I'm dogshit at trying to navigate your forums

Currently the High Court is composed of the following members:

• Kris Kringle, Chief Justice
• Belschaft, Associate Justice
• Nat, Associate Justice
• Griffindor, Associate Justice

[Baedan]

who are the current members of the High Court? I'm dogshit at trying to navigate your forums

Currently the High Court is composed of the following members:

• Kris Kringle, Chief Justice
• Belschaft, Associate Justice
• Nat, Associate Justice
• Griffindor, Associate Justice

Much obliged, your honor

[Kyorgia]

TSP needs to build their courage and pull the trigger to do what it's been building up to, a complete ban of all raider citizens from it's region. This is nothing more than a sneaky attempt to mostly just that, all the while assuring it's non-defender allies that, no, no, TSP don't want to ban raiders *entirely*. TSP's actions are a poor attempt to hide their extremism behind an ever increasing flimsy list of convenient excuses.

So no total ban on all raiders just yet. For now. At least not until TSP is sure enough of their non-Defender allies would be cool with it.

As the number one defender in the world I agree with my good friend mr Evil Wolf

[The Church of Satan]

Where's the "joint" part in all this? Seriously. I know I've only skimmed through it but I didn't see any other region proscribing TBH. I know I'm just splitting hairs here but even so, this is misleading and disappointing, because it's entirely dull. >_>

I know, the "council" and the other thing but this is literally just the same region. It's so pointless.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Where's the "joint" part in all this? Seriously. I know I've only skimmed through it but I didn't see any other region proscribing TBH. I know I'm just splitting hairs here but even so, this is misleading and disappointing, because it's entirely dull. >_>

I know, the "council" and the other thing but this is literally just the same region. It's so pointless.

It's to describe what they were smoking when they decided this was a good idea.

[WayNeacTia]

Where's the "joint" part in all this? Seriously. I know I've only skimmed through it but I didn't see any other region proscribing TBH. I know I'm just splitting hairs here but even so, this is misleading and disappointing, because it's entirely dull. >_>

I know, the "council" and the other thing but this is literally just the same region. It's so pointless.

It's to describe what they were smoking when they decided this was a good idea.

Maybe they didn't smoke enough?

[Numero Capitan]

At risk of sounding like a broken record: for alllllllll the shit y'all gave Osiris in 2016 over "cutting ties because Glen said mean things about Osi," you should know better than to build a case on "Souls said bad things about TSP." Especially when, for the last time, you don't even need to. No one is buying the cover. Because it's crap. Why effing bother?

It's because TSP has always pretended to be the most democratic region with the most freedom and is the most inclusive. They even promised that their move to being officially Defender would not mean raiders wouldn't be allowed to be citizens or banned from the region.

If they come out and just declare, de jure, what is already essentially de facto, suddenly they can't claim to be "the most inclusive free democracy with the most freedom" because they'll be the only GCR since 2006 to have formal laws banning outright a specific category of gameplayer. Suddenly they're officially one of the most oppressive GCRs, not "the most democratic".

Ideologically, I don't think they can take that blow to their ego.

TSP is largely defender because of the long-term trajectory of your interferences with Lazarus and the migration of defender-leaning Lazarus natives to a different GCR. Defenders have resided in TSP since the dawn of time and worked happily alongside raiders and raider-leaning natives and continue to do so. Raiders like Southern Bellz and Todd McCloud helped build the strong institutions that TSP benefits from today and helped expand that democracy and freedom. What has changed is the consensus view towards the raiding sphere and raiding as a result of the actions of those within it. Whilst it might suit your out-of-date rants (about things you don't really know anything about anymore) for TSP to 'ban all raiders' they have no will or hunger to do so. The region contains plenty of raider-leaning individuals who are nothing but a positive contribution to the community. But TSP has decided as a whole that it no longer wishes to join in with raiding activities.

TBH members will unfortunately be viewed with suspicion in TSP because of the actions of their members over the last few months as well as the held views/ambitions of their leaders/Council advisors that prompted the wider rejection of the raiding sphere in TSP in years gone by. Anyone is welcome in TSP should they want to be a part of that great community, but current TBH members would have to choose to end their ties with TBH to do so - which is an unfortunate consequence of the actions of Black Hawks and no-one else.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Where's the "joint" part in all this? Seriously. I know I've only skimmed through it but I didn't see any other region proscribing TBH. I know I'm just splitting hairs here but even so, this is misleading and disappointing, because it's entirely dull. >_>

I know, the "council" and the other thing but this is literally just the same region. It's so pointless.

Under TSP law, a proscription that applies to existing members of the Coalition must be issued jointly by the Cabinet and the Council on Regional Security. Either body may, on its own, proscribe individuals that aren't members of the Coalition. Because this applies to all TBHers, including those who are citizens or legislators in TSP, it was issued jointly by the Cabinet and CRS.

[The Church of Satan]

Under TSP law, a proscription that applies to existing members of the Coalition must be issued jointly by the Cabinet and the Council on Regional Security. Either body may, on its own, proscribe individuals that aren't members of the Coalition. Because this applies to all TBHers, including those who are citizens or legislators in TSP, it was issued jointly by the Cabinet and CRS.

Ultimately it's still just TSP. Is it really so hard to just say "TSP doesn't want these people here. No more, no less"? I mean, if one proscribed someone but the other didn't (if that's even possible) wouldn't the effect be the same anyways?