Embassy of the South Pacific

[Rebbid]

Yeah, got asked to let it lie, but you're quicker than I am

I'm disappointed that everything's seen as bad faith rather than testing the waters. I've never spent any time in a GCR (got recruited immediately a fair few years ago to my main region), and recently started spreading my wings, so to speak, including jumping into a raiding org, and more recently a GCR. FWIW, I'm from a region with a decent sized voting pool, so my one additional vote in TSP shouldnt be seen as such a huge threat to Sovereignty: if anything it actually weakened my voice.

I agree, expanding on my reasoning for that vote would have been a lot better, but in my defense I'm very nervous voicing my opinion in new places, hence hiding behind a frog shaped puppet. I've considered founding a more serious nation, but honestly am gunna struggle after this. Simply put, I honestly thought I was following TSPs laws, and yes, was hoping it would influence others, but was it some evil raider plot to force Defenders to vote against their own interests: no. I'd add arguments about that but it seems a touch "wrong place", and definitely too late: TSP has overrided that vote, and someone who deserves recognition for their work is going to suffer for 2/3 of us. Sucks really.

[Nova Vandalia]

There is an unquestionable fact in this scandal: TSP's sovereignty was violated by suspicious actors, and I know that the Cabinet would have never put out this statement if it wasn't, because it was. I'm speaking on this as a former MoFA and current CRS member. If any other region had been the subject of such an egregious violation, they would have as much right as any other region to protest this transgression.

Then protest, it instead of using it to push a WA agenda. I mean it's pretty bad you had to use this to get TNP to switch.

And what is the definition of bad faith here? Voting for a proposal you all openly didn't want to approve.

I'd say joining the region specifically to affect the outcome of a vote is a good example of bad faith.

You don't know that's why they joined. I mean honestly it seems like TSP's stance is to call anyone a no goodnick who votes against what the actual, what do you lot have a ministry, Ministry wants. Or it only at the behest of XKI making the decision for you all on who's a bad faith actor that you decide they are?

Either way it seems to me you're upset over a lack of governance in regards to WA decision making that you all admitted really wouldn't have been taken into account anyways. I mean the vote would have been what 6 to 3. You're just taking hold of a minor scandal, blowing it out of proportions to sandbag bag other regions into voting your way.

[Refuge Isle]

I'm disappointed that everything's seen as bad faith rather than testing the waters.

Typically one does this while being open about their identities.

There's a limited amount of possible good will that accompanies pretending to be a noob interested in influencing voting trends

so my one additional vote in TSP shouldnt be seen as such a huge threat to Sovereignty: if anything it actually weakened my voice.

The logic is lost on me.

While I agree that TSP's system is more open to exploitation, it is also helpful for people who are gameside-only. But I don't really follow the logic that influencing a 700+ strong delegate vote through their WA ministry is a weaker play than whatever you do in TCB.

You don't know that's why they joined.

The post above yours is extremely inconvenient to this sentiment.

[Qvait]

Then protest, it instead of using it to push a WA agenda. I mean it's pretty bad you had to use this to get TNP to switch.

Yeah sure, TSP is the aggressor here. Nonsense. Given the circumstances, the Cabinet had every right to encourage our allies to vote against the proposed resolution. This is a just action against an unjust action.

[Nova Vandalia]

The post above yours is extremely inconvenient to this sentiment.

It also really inconvenient for the TBH apologists too, because it seems really unrepentant.

As far as I'm concerned, both side are at fault. TSP for blowing it out of proportion and using it to push an agenda against a person who deserves a commendation and TBH for getting caught and giving a half hearted apology, that they can't actually back up.

[Tinhampton]

Then protest, it instead of using it to push a WA agenda. I mean it's pretty bad you had to use this to get TNP to switch.

Yeah sure, TSP is the aggressor here. Nonsense. Given the circumstances, the Cabinet had every right to encourage our allies to vote against the proposed resolution. This is a just action against an unjust action.

I reiterate that the Cabinet's statement was quite clear that "we encourage all regions, and all of our allies and partners, to join us in [voting against]." When the statement refers to "all regions," it refers to every other region on NationStates.net, regardless of TSP's attitude towards or friendship with them. The "circumstances" were a handful of Black Hawks attempting to get TSP's Delegate to vote in favour of a Hawk-authored resolution without the consent of the Council of Hawks, which would not have yielded any results even if their votes had been counted in the final OWL tally; by no means does this justify asking "all regions" to vote against that resolution.

If this is needed for future reference, all of my OWL business is conducted using Corporatist Union.

[Rebbid]

I'm disappointed that everything's seen as bad faith rather than testing the waters.

Typically one does this while being open about their identities.

There's a limited amount of possible good will that accompanies pretending to be a noob interested in influencing voting trends

I hardly presented myself as a newbie, I simply dont know the ins and outs of it, and know nobody from there. I can quote TCB law all day, but I'm a lot less familiar with everyone elses. Hell, theres a region I've been (loosely) participating in for months that I only know the one law that allows me to vote within it.
(Edit: and before that gets thrown around, I think I've voted once in there, and it had nothing to do with WA- I actually dont know how they decide WA stuff)

so my one additional vote in TSP shouldnt be seen as such a huge threat to Sovereignty: if anything it actually weakened my voice.

The logic is lost on me.

While I agree that TSP's system is more open to exploitation, it is also helpful for people who are gameside-only. But I don't really follow the logic that influencing a 700+ strong delegate vote through their WA ministry is a weaker play than whatever you do in TCB.

I mean it's simple math, but 1 voice in 275 vs 1 voice in 700+ is quite different. If I campaign for something in TCB (we have a similar but different system to TSP in how things are voted for actually, I like both) then I tend to be arguing against a lot less peoples votes than I was in TSP.

And even then; the Factbook I read beforehand literally said I only posted For, Aginst or Present. It, at no point mandated an explanation for the vote, nor did it ask for my background within NS.

Look, for what it's worth, I'm sorry and I'll avoid doing it again- pretty certain I'll be staying away from GCRs at least for a few years.

[Refuge Isle]

I mean it's simple math, but 1 voice in 275 vs 1 voice in 700+ is quite different. If I campaign for something in TCB (we have a similar but different system to TSP in how things are voted for actually, I like it) then I tend to be arguing against a lot less peoples votes than I was in TSP.

This is not how World Assembly ministries work when those ministries determine the vote of the delegate. In TEP, I don't compete with the thousand WA nations in TEP, but with the ideas of the rest of the WAA ministry.

One vote in a situation like that is well more than 1:1 influence. Often, a couple people with strong and well-reasoned opinions can make the difference.

[Rebbid]

I mean it's simple math, but 1 voice in 275 vs 1 voice in 700+ is quite different. If I campaign for something in TCB (we have a similar but different system to TSP in how things are voted for actually, I like it) then I tend to be arguing against a lot less peoples votes than I was in TSP.

This is not how World Assembly ministries work when those ministries determine the vote of the delegate. In TEP, I don't compete with the thousand WA nations in TEP, but with the ideas of the rest of the WAA ministry.

One vote in a situation like that is well more than 1:1 influence. Often, a couple people with strong and well-reasoned opinions can make the difference.

Well clearly, as I've been criticized for, I didnt have a well reasoned argument- or any at all. I submitted two votes for two resolutions. That's the sum total of the offense I've given to TSP. I didnt influence anyone, nor try to.

[Honeydewistania]

It also really inconvenient for the TBH apologists too, because it seems really unrepentant.

As far as I'm concerned, both side are at fault. TSP for blowing it out of proportion and using it to push an agenda against a person who deserves a commendation and TBH for getting caught and giving a half hearted apology, that they can't actually back up.

TSP are not at fault here. Their sovereignty was attacked. Don’t victim blame them.

[Rebbid]

It also really inconvenient for the TBH apologists too, because it seems really unrepentant.

As far as I'm concerned, both side are at fault. TSP for blowing it out of proportion and using it to push an agenda against a person who deserves a commendation and TBH for getting caught and giving a half hearted apology, that they can't actually back up.

TSP are not at fault here. Their sovereignty was attacked. Don’t victim blame them.

Sorry, how was their sovereignty attacked. I followed their laws, acting as a citizen who at that time was fully supporting their government. It just so happens, I also have a few nations elsewhere. Does that mean every puppet is an attack on NatSov?

[RiderSyl]

so let me get this straight... some noobs in TBH decided to be shady, and TSP is justifiably annoyed...
if it had stopped there i'd be saying "yeah, yo go TSP, drag 'em!"

but it didn't stop there. TSP decided to turn the situation into a big ol' campaign telegram against Commend Twobagger, showing that there's no situation GCR politicians won't shamelessly take advantage of.

Ya, nobody wins here. I'm rolling my eyes at TSP and TBH alike.

It also really inconvenient for the TBH apologists too, because it seems really unrepentant.

As far as I'm concerned, both side are at fault. TSP for blowing it out of proportion and using it to push an agenda against a person who deserves a commendation and TBH for getting caught and giving a half hearted apology, that they can't actually back up.

TSP are not at fault here. Their sovereignty was attacked. Don’t victim blame them.

you have no idea what victim blaming actually is. stop.

[Honeydewistania]

Ok yeah, poor choice of words. But I do not believe they are at fault, or have done anything wrong here

[RiderSyl]

Ok yeah, poor choice of words. But I do not believe they are at fault, or have done anything wrong here

then i hope you're never the victim of something bad. not just because i wouldnt wish that on you, but also because apparently you'd see nothing wrong with unnecessarily dramatizing what happened to you for the sake of achieving an ulterior motive.

[A Leaf on the Wind]

Does switching sides automatically erase any good that you have done on the other side? If I became a hawk tomorrow, does my time in RRA mean nothing? It's disappointing that TSP took this moment to unnecessarily drag someone through the mud. You can think someone unworthy of a commend, without resorting to this kind of behavior.


Edit -

Some people were confused by my post so I wanted to make something clear: I encourage you to keep this incident separate from you opinion and treatment of TB as a player and a person. It's unfortunate that he has to face this drama when he wasn't involved or responsible.

Aside from that, we condemn all attempts to manipulate the WA vote in other regions.

[Aivintis]

Does switching sides automatically erase any good that you have done on the other side? If I became a hawk tomorrow, does my time in RRA mean nothing? It's disappointing that TSP took this moment to unnecessarily drag someone through the mud. You can think someone unworthy of a commend, without resorting to this kind of behavior.

I see this situation differently. To me it's a commendation of a raider based on achievements from a long time ago that have since been overshadowed by their current career. And then with voter fraud to boot, this doesn't seem like erasing a long defender history after a day of switching.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

Does switching sides automatically erase any good that you have done on the other side? If I became a hawk tomorrow, does my time in RRA mean nothing? It's disappointing that TSP took this moment to unnecessarily drag someone through the mud. You can think someone unworthy of a commend, without resorting to this kind of behavior.

I see this situation differently. To me it's a commendation of a raider based on achievements from a long time ago that have since been overshadowed by their current career. And then with voter fraud to boot, this doesn't seem like erasing a long defender history after a day of switching.

How has his raiding career overshadowed his defending career? He only switched in 2020, and certainly has not done anything to the scale of his defending accomplishments on the raider side.

[Twobagger]

I see this situation differently. To me it's a commendation of a raider based on achievements from a long time ago that have since been overshadowed by their current career. And then with voter fraud to boot, this doesn't seem like erasing a long defender history after a day of switching.

It is unfortunate that you feel this way, given that many of the achievements were fairly recent when the resolution was originally written, and that I was not involved in the incident in question.

[Aleister]

It is unfortunate that you feel this way, given that many of the achievements were fairly recent when the resolution was originally written, and that I was not involved in the incident in question.

It's really a shame that they're taking it out on you. Not to mention TBH isn't even standing up for you and is instead readily apologizing for something this inconsequential and petty at your expense.

[A Bloodred Moon]

STATEMENT ON THE BLACK HAWKS' VIOLATION OF SOVEREIGNTY

When I read this, I started hoping for something significant. But unfortunately, as with so many other things from TSP, I was disappointed.

Our allies in 10000 Islands also alerted the Cabinet and the Council on Regional Security on this suspicious activity and provided more information. We have strong evidence that members of The Black Hawks attempted to manipulate the outcome of Security Council votes related to their interests.

...okay? People playing politics, the horror. May I remind you that are in fact an open enemy of raiders, TBH included? TSP and it's allies have often enough infiltrated TBH. Crying outrage over two puppets voting in a poll open to all TSP residents is a double standard of amusing proportions.

The Cabinet of The South Pacific considers this a grave and gross violation of our regional sovereignty by The Black Hawks.

Doubtlessly you do, but it is such a minor thing it hardly warrants such a dramatic statement.

We endeavor to create an open community and foster a representative government, and the OWL program has been a great vehicle to introduce the community to the World Assembly. To abuse and attempt to manipulate the outcome of these votes to serve a foreign enemy’s interest is an attack on the integrity of our democracy.

Sounds like you made an easily manipulated system and someone manipulated it. Besides, if you consider TBH a foreign enemy anyway, why is it shocking that they took action? If action you call it, of course - there were two people using puppets excercising their right as residents. And not even for something that actually threatened TSP - at worst, y'all would have disregarded your precious "democratic" process and voted against the big bad raider.

The South Pacific and our allies are watching.

I am terrified. Given defender spotting in recent months, combined with the fact that 10000 Islands noticed this "subversion" before you yourselves did, and had to point it out to you, this is hardly a worthwhile threat.

The Cabinet also takes this opportunity to address the Security Council resolution that has inspired The Black Hawks to again attempt to violate our sovereignty.

This is the part of the statement that matters. Two nations not on an official TBH operation voted on an RMB? That hardly warrants this reaction. Turning votes your way, however, absolutely does. See TNP, see TEP. It is mildly saddening to see them fall for it, but such things happen. Pretending this is about subversion and votestacking is convenient for you, but this is the heart of the matter: TSP and friends were very busy losing a WA vote, and in an effort to turn the tide you made a big statement about a "violation of regional sovereignty." One has to wonder who is getting manipulated here, your Feeder friends or you.

The South Pacific has voted against this commendation, and we encourage all regions, and all of our allies and partners to join us in doing so.

TSP's attitude of "if they are a raider, they don't deserve a badge" is well-known, yes. It is as petty and hostile as you accuse the proposal of being. For all you complain about bad faith, trolling or whatever, you yourself are far from eager to give up the hostility to all things raider-related.

[Daytime to Night]

Unfortunately this is part of a pattern of ever increasing TBH interference in the GCRs, whether it is voter importation, supporting active coup attempts (Balder), leaking secure information or simply the constant harassment GCR leaders in private messages for acting in their own interests rather than that of the raider sphere. Jakker has already been actively lobbying people to approve this proposal as a means to troll 10000 Islands, remarkable conduct for a forum moderator. Of course he shows up on here as Mr Disingenuous, parroting his deep admiration of the virtuous accomplishments of a former TITO knight. How many more suspect activities in the GCRs do the Council of Hawks need to feign ignorance of before we start questioning their integrity?

TBH are now suggesting a random group of their rank and file decided to do this on their own in support of Jakker's resolution and didn’t organise it or discuss it in any area visible to their own leadership. The ‘group’ in question are not a socially connected group at all, their one defining feature is that they all fall under the instruction of the Black Hawks. The attempts by the likes of Peeps, Jo and others to peddle the ‘Council definitely didn’t know about this’ message tells me all I need to know. We’re not that simple, we can see through all of that. The only ones who are pretending this is nothing all have a strategic interest in burying this, and we shouldn’t let them.

It is all pretty transparent and anyone who knows the details of this or previous attempts to subvert GCRs knows that it is an issue with the root and stem, going right to the top of the region.

Throwing others under the bus seems to be becoming a trademark of TBH ‘leadership’. If it were my organisation I would be demoting those involved immediately, but that is obviously difficult to do if they’re acting under the orders of their superiors...

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

There is an unquestionable fact in this scandal: TSP's sovereignty was violated by suspicious actors, and I know that the Cabinet would have never put out this statement if it wasn't, because it was. I'm speaking on this as a former MoFA and current CRS member. If any other region had been the subject of such an egregious violation, they would have as much right as any other region to protest this transgression.

Then protest, it instead of using it to push a WA agenda. I mean it's pretty bad you had to use this to get TNP to switch.

TNP switched because enough voters on our offsite forum agree with a very simple concept:

You. Do. Not. Fuck. With. Our. Allies.

In a personal capacity, I was in favour of Commend TB for various reasons but the resolution on its own cannot be taken in isolation in this case. In the context of TNP-TSP relations, it no longer was logical or just to continue to support it, which is why many of us, myself included, switched our votes. Jakker and TB should be feeling pissed at the people in their organisation who tanked this for them, because it was likely going to pass prior to this issue.

[Aquilanion]

Unfortunately this is part of a pattern of ever increasing TBH interference in the GCRs, whether it is voter importation, supporting active coup attempts (Balder)

The Black Hawks was not, and never was, involved in any coup attempts in Balder, despite efforts to portray it otherwise.

[Daytime to Night]

Unfortunately this is part of a pattern of ever increasing TBH interference in the GCRs, whether it is voter importation, supporting active coup attempts (Balder)

The Black Hawks was not, and never was, involved in any coup attempts in Balder, despite efforts to portray it otherwise.

Just a few rogue individuals acting on their own volition again? Of course

[Devi]

lmao im not sure this tops the time TSP went after Souls for talking about messing with and proceeding to do nothing about one of their festivals, but it sure is pretty far up there for massive overreactions to what's at it's *worst* some petty trickery

not that anyone should be surprised. when defending can't win by normal means, i guess manufacturing a big sob story to farm sympathy is all they have left. i just feel sorry for the people who continually fall for it

obligatory e: the usual cya stuff; my opinions are my own and don't reflect tbh as a whole