Embassy of the South Pacific

[RiderSyl]

But Glen, when do these rules apply to you?

Exactly the point.

[Aclion]

No, no, no, give it until Thanksgiving.

If some people are really that salty, I say middle of December to before Christmas Eve.

Well the laz debacle started in august and ended in April. So I'll guess May.

[Consular]

No, no, no, give it until Thanksgiving.

If some people are really that salty, I say middle of December to before Christmas Eve.

It isn't being "salty" to want administrators to be held to standards. I'm sorry you lack a sufficient understanding of ethics to see this is a big problem.

[RiderSyl]

But I do know that a good friend of mine suffered from certain people's behaviour and so yes, I supported Tsu's action. Am I sad it came to this? Absolutely? Am I saying that everyone on the other side is perfect? Absolutely not. But in terms of action Tsu took, in my opinion as an average TSPer, it was necessary. Something had to be done.

If your friend had lost the roof to their home, would you support someone that only did this in response?

Because that's what you're doing.

Only one side of the unacceptable behavior in TSP was dealt with. Nothing has been done about the other side of it.

For TSP's hierarchy, a house with half a roof is perfectly acceptable. In reality, it's just begging to be damaged by the next monsoon.
And that next monsoon is coming. It's always coming. It's just a question of whether or not average TSPers care that their regional government isn't properly protecting them.

[Darkesia]

I don't pretend to deeply understand what has happened here. But as an off-site forum admin, I will say that this is one of the reasons TWP uses mostly retired players as admins and never bans without vetting that decision together. We also accept that ultimately the decision lies with the owner of the site, Winnipeg. He does sometimes have to talk us off a #banThemAll ledge. As I said, I don't pretend to know the specifics here, perhaps things did cross the OOC line and perhaps they didn't. But, from what I see here, TSP may wish to gather their admins and form a statement internally. I don't believe TSP admins owe an explanation here. This place has no bearing on the off-site. A reassurance on their own forum may be in order, though. And perhaps it has already been done.

If that is the case, carry on ranting. I do tend to forget that drama and popcorn sales is the purpose of the GP forum.

[Unibot III]

Alright, how much further are we still gonna be fighting a war over this?

I place bets on a couple more months...

No, no, no, give it until Thanksgiving.

Which Thanksgiving?

But Glen, when do these rules apply to you? When I was there, it was you and your behavior people were complaining about. When I served as Chair and cracked down on your behavior, it was because Farengeto and Ryccia, among others, were encouraging me to do something about your in-character toxicity in the Assembly. And yet we know what happened there -- the warnings I issued against you were ignored by Tsunamy and never applied, and I was run out of TSP for daring to enforce any rules of conduct against you. And now here we are, with you claiming that TSP can and should enforce these rules. Fine and dandy, but when are they ever going to apply to you? This whole thing is a farce. Escade and Tim were banned because you don't like them.

While I served as Chair, I handed out red flags to Glen-Rhodes, and you (I think), and a number of people for simply being too heated. It happens. I'm guilty of it and so are many people in this thread. It's a game. People get heated, they say and write things they regret - and it disrupts the flow of discussion and derails Assembly debate.

What Escade and Tim were banned for is far more exhaustive than merely insults here or there: those are responded to with a graduated moderation system. What TSPers were party to was months of a deeply personal factionalism - sustained through denigration, intimidation, emotional manipulation, and kompromat - that has no real equal in TSP history. They were responsible for the premature departures of several TSPers from NS. The narrative here that you and others are pushing (perhaps unknowingly) is a false equivalence that's unfair.

I don't think TSP administration set out to explain to outsiders what those bans were for, it was already well understood in TSP. What transpired was a sustained personal drama that's hard to articulate in moderation terms without using unclear words like "toxicity" and "harassment" which mean something different to everyone.

[Chartresia]

What Escade and Tim were banned for is far more exhaustive than merely insults here or there: those are responded to with a graduated moderation system. What TSPers were party to was months of a deeply personal factionalism - sustained through denigration, intimidation, emotional manipulation, and kompromat - that has no real equal in TSP history. They were responsible for the premature departures of several TSPers from NS.

Really? Aren't you supposed to be banned from the South Pacific? Because you seem to have a very deep knowledge of what's been happening in TSP over a matter of months.

[Unibot III]

Really?

Yes really. That's an accurate reading of events. I wouldn't waste calories bullshitting anyone here.

Aren't you supposed to be banned from the South Pacific? Because you seem to have a very deep knowledge of what's been happening in TSP over a matter of months.

I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.

[Chartresia]

Aren't you supposed to be banned from the South Pacific? Because you seem to have a very deep knowledge of what's been happening in TSP over a matter of months.

I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.

Then how do you know perfectly what's been happening recently in TSP?

[RiderSyl]

What Escade and Tim were banned for is far more exhaustive than merely insults here or there: those are responded to with a graduated moderation system. What TSPers were party to was months of a deeply personal factionalism - sustained through denigration, intimidation, emotional manipulation, and kompromat - that has no real equal in TSP history. They were responsible for the premature departures of several TSPers from NS.

Most of my chats with TSPers involve the Canadian Constitution or speculating about the Democratic primaries. I’m increasingly disillusioned at what’s become of NS.

Either you're speaking out of your ass in the first quote, or you're lying in the second one.

[The Church of Satan]

What transpired was a sustained personal drama that's hard to articulate in moderation terms without using unclear words like "toxicity" and "harassment" which mean something different to everyone.

Actually the NationStates community has an agreed upon definition for harassment.

[Unibot III]

What transpired was a sustained personal drama that's hard to articulate in moderation terms without using unclear words like "toxicity" and "harassment" which mean something different to everyone.

Actually the NationStates community has an agreed upon definition for harassment.

The NationStates community does not have an agreed upon definition of anything. "Harassment" was and is a relatively approximate word for what went on, but it's a difficult thing to describe and articulate in a one word summary: personalized, heated factionalism, full of denigration and intimidation.

What Escade and Tim were banned for is far more exhaustive than merely insults here or there: those are responded to with a graduated moderation system. What TSPers were party to was months of a deeply personal factionalism - sustained through denigration, intimidation, emotional manipulation, and kompromat - that has no real equal in TSP history. They were responsible for the premature departures of several TSPers from NS.

Most of my chats with TSPers involve the Canadian Constitution or speculating about the Democratic primaries. I’m increasingly disillusioned at what’s become of NS.

Either you're speaking out of your ass in the first quote, or you're lying in the second one.

Not a lie, nor am I talking out of my ass.

I often follow conversations without contributing, I'm busy with work through the day and I don't have much skin in the game anymore. When I speak in depth about something it's usually something RL like Canadian or US politics.

I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.

Then how do you know perfectly what's been happening recently in TSP?

I'm banned, not dead!

[Tim-Opolis]

I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.

Then how do you know perfectly what's been happening recently in TSP?

Close friendships with a majority of the region's Admins, as well as the Prime Minister. They have a private little Discord server they all hang out in and trade gossip.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

What transpired was a sustained personal drama that's hard to articulate in moderation terms without using unclear words like "toxicity" and "harassment" which mean something different to everyone.

Actually the NationStates community has an agreed upon definition for harassment.

I, uh, have not heard of this.

[The Church of Satan]

Actually the NationStates community has an agreed upon definition for harassment.

I, uh, have not heard of this.

Take a look at past incidents and accusations of harassment. There's a pattern.

[Aramanchovia]

I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.

Based on the name, I would have thought South Unibot was your puppet nation, but guess not. I guess that one is not really hidden either though

[Glen-Rhodes]

What transpired was a sustained personal drama that's hard to articulate in moderation terms without using unclear words like "toxicity" and "harassment" which mean something different to everyone.

Actually the NationStates community has an agreed upon definition for harassment.

Some part of Gameplay has an idiosyncratic, poorly-defined, and relatively restrictive definition of harassment, that is in diametric opposition (according to you) to what the NationStates community has understood it to be for a very long time. A lot of work has gone into getting administrators to take the complaints of players being sexually harassed seriously, and that shouldn't come at any cost, let alone at the cost of other non-sexual harassment being minimized as non-actionable and outside of the jurisdiction of "proper" community management.

[Cosmopolitan borovan]

I'm not supposed to be, I am. It's a ban that I've honoured completely. I maintain no hidden account in TSP. Nor do I harbor any animus with the people who promulgated my ban.

Based on the name, I would have thought South Unibot was your puppet nation, but guess not. I guess that one is not really hidden either though

So much for being "banned" in all regions

[Cormactopia Prime]

Based on the name, I would have thought South Unibot was your puppet nation, but guess not. I guess that one is not really hidden either though

So much for being "banned" in all regions

South Unibot is now controlled by Ravania Ultra, as should be obvious from its pre-title, "The Ravanian Caretaker."

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Some part of Gameplay has an idiosyncratic, poorly-defined, and relatively restrictive definition of harassment, that is in diametric opposition (according to you) to what the NationStates community has understood it to be for a very long time. A lot of work has gone into getting administrators to take the complaints of players being sexually harassed seriously, and that shouldn't come at any cost, let alone at the cost of other non-sexual harassment being minimized as non-actionable and outside of the jurisdiction of "proper" community management.

I don’t think anyone is saying non-sexual harassment isn’t a serious issue Glen. At most, you are. We’ve consistently said that all harassment is a serious concern, to all communities, and that all harassment also needs to be proven. You are the one who has continually downplayed it in response, said it’s only an internal issue, and so forth.

Let me say it again: No one is saying that you can’t act on other forms of harassment - just that if it’s harassment, prove it, and warn others, as is standard. Then, in response to your repeated backtracking about how it’s *not* serious, just politics and mild flaming, folks say “well then if it’s not harassment, don’t call it harassment.” That’s when you go and say that it is very serious and targeting players and all that bad stuff, which is where we go back to “okay, that sounds serious, please prove it” and so forth. The circle is getting old. Pick one, for the love of god.

[The Church of Satan]

Well Glen then what is harassment? Even you can't seem to come to a decision. Over the course of the last few weeks your posts have included

• accusing Tim & Escade of harassment
• saying that instead of harassment they had been flaming, baiting and trolling
• accusing them of non-sexual harassment

All the while you've made these claims with literally zero proof even to Tim & Escade themselves. Nevermind that you've been backpedaling with everything you've been saying about the situation. Make up your mind man!

[Escade]

Actually the NationStates community, particularly admin, have received extensive and exhaustive evidence in which players including Unibot, Brunhilde, and Sam111 impacted members of the community "through denigration, intimidation, emotional manipulation, and kompromat" among other things. The majority of the community came to the swift conclusion that these members were no longer welcome because of their malicious, soul-harming behaviors.

Except three of four TSP admin who not only allow Unibot to be their mentor and guide in a private discord (he trained Roavin in becoming a defender for example) but seem to think it ideal to share "internal" matters with him to the degree that he speaks on their behalf and in defense of them.

Let's cut through some of the TSP admin and Unibot's nonsense:
1. They mention three players in the official ban all of whom are still on NationStates (cutting through this bullshit of "players quit prematurely").

2. One of those players, Farengeto, the Prime Minister of TSP and member of the Unibot fan club, brought up the same issues with toxicity last year (although in this case the player he wanted to see action against was Roavin for being harsh, repeatedly pinging him and publicly shaming him for having gone awol in a government position). Of course once the election cycle was over Farengeto dropped the issue of toxicity and actual solutions to the problem. Guess when he brings up the issue? You'd be right to assume when he is running for something. He will also collect this paragraph as evidence of OOC toxicity.

3. One of the players talking in this thread on the admin side, North Prarie, stated he needed a LoA for his mental health because he was losing the election. He also implied that if he lost the election he would quit\leave TSP. I'm not sure what players are expected to do? Vote for players because the player threatens to ragequit or otherwise tries to get pity votes? He also stated that players, like myself, who didn't vote for him "had no remorse." NSGP already is familiar with the plethora of players who misuse OOC. See that first sentence for some names. Let's not forget North Prarie supported Tim and Tim's questioning methods of his opponent for a good while and even voted Tim for delegate before doing a 360.

4. Some of the rumored evidence involves comments like "You haven't done your job for over two months - is it laziness or just incompetence?" If this type of comment is now OOC harassment then NSGP, NSGP Discord and the majority of NSGP players may as well put on their scarlet letter A badge for being "OOC harassers."

5. Here is how TSP admin have responded to requests for evidence from regional admin, leaders and other members of the community:
A. The evidence is too hard to collect, find, etc THEREFORE the TSP admin do not have any evidence
B. The evidence is "minor" and "not a big deal" i.e. this is a politically motivated ban where admin have weaponized moderation
C. Showing the evidence to the accused would allow them to counter-file based on the same standards so Tim and I can't be shown the evidence
D. Showing the evidence to NSGP will lead to NSGP making fun of the accusers for trying to manipulate IC into OOC which speaks to a larger issue
E. One of the four admin argued that they word "OOC" shouldn't have been included in the ban at all because of the above
F. The TSP admin don't care what the other admin think because they'll do whatever they want anyway and they think NSGP will move on

I'll repeat it again, there were two political factions. Both used IC political tactics to try to gain the upper hand. When one faction, no matter how hard it tried through voter coordination, rumor-mongering and use of "real life" issues could not stop Tim getting this close to becoming the delegate of TSP they decided to weaponize administration. That's utterly horrifying.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Well Glen then what is harassment? Even you can't seem to come to a decision.

Definition of harass
harassed; harassing; harasses
transitive verb
b (2) : to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct

Read? I think I've been pretty clear.

[Escade]

Oh boy by that definition we have the following (and yes I have the DM evidence):
1. On July 18, 2018 Tsunamy let me know that he and the other admin had spoken to Roavin about his pinging of me or attempts to mention me by name or get involved in my conversations with other players.This was after I asked him to speak to Roavin to stop or cut down on the constant arguments and hostile atmosphere.
2. Since July 2018, Roavin - just in the TSP Legislator Lounge - has mentioned me directly 93 times. The last mention, that I know of, was to try to force me to answer his questions in which he let the lounge know that I was chatting on NSGP Discord instead of answering his questions. This was the weekend before I was summarily banned.

And at this point, I was out of the government for the last several months and simply a legislator (although I admit with enough influence to impact elections which is why I'm banned). If a legislator can be mentioned 93 times in a period of months then what scrutiny can a government official expect?

This also comes during and after a 48 hour ban in which the two factions (Roavin\Glenn) and myself and Tim were not to speak to each other. So there were at least two admin warnings\discussions for Roavin in this case. More notice than I or Tim have received about any of the alleged players involved in this conflict.

Is this an act of prolonged and targeted harassment? Is it simply IC politics? Spin the wheel and depending who does it the TSP admin will determine whether these repeated unwanted verbal contacts were "in good faith" or "psychological torture and harassment that requires therapy."

[Fauxia]

No, its's mostly that they just wanted to attack TSP :/

Even though despite the fact that my region has been TSP's closest and most loyal ally for several years I am still appalled by their administrators blatant abuse of power? You might want to rethink that statement.

No no no, everyone criticizing actions taken in TSP are all best buddies dancing around a campfire at night singing the “Litany of TSP’s Sins.”

We’re all out to get TSP