Embassy of the South Pacific

[Kringalia]

I mean, I hope you guys in Gameplay didn’t actually think there’s anything you could say, do, criticise or threaten us with, that would make us alter the bans. That would be a misguided belief.

I don't think anyone has had faith that TSP would see the light.

Oh I wouldn’t go that far. I’m pretty sure my phone still has a built-in flashlight.

[Glen-Rhodes]

... and stated his intentions to remove Tim, including stating in a public place that Tim came from trash.

Receipts?

[Midand]

Aaaaand the fire's spreading to the buildings as well.
Great.
The ban could be over and we could still be arguing about this...

[Armaros]

Not sure what anyone can say at this point, beyond expressing profound disappointment with TSP's admin team.

It's like you guys are actively trying to usurp the shittiest admin throne from TNP eh

I mean, I hope you guys in Gameplay didn’t actually think there’s anything you could say, do, criticise or threaten us with, that would make us alter the bans. That would be a misguided belief.

I doubt many people thought you would. If you ban someone for OOC reasons but refuse to show evidence for it, I doubt TSP will see how unreasonable they're acting. Claiming you're an open and transparent democracy while at the same time purging political opponents for "OOC harrassment" while refusing to show evidence for that claim isn't the best way to go. Choose one side to go with.

[Tim-Opolis]

Not sure what anyone can say at this point, beyond expressing profound disappointment with TSP's admin team.

It's like you guys are actively trying to usurp the shittiest admin throne from TNP eh

I mean, I hope you guys in Gameplay didn’t actually think there’s anything you could say, do, criticise or threaten us with, that would make us alter the bans. That would be a misguided belief.

Translation: I mean, I hope you guys know I'm going to ignore every point you raise, act as if I'm above accountability, and continue being as corrupt as ever. Hah, and y'all thought I was actually gonna engage in discourse.

[Consular]

Not sure what anyone can say at this point, beyond expressing profound disappointment with TSP's admin team.

It's like you guys are actively trying to usurp the shittiest admin throne from TNP eh

I mean, I hope you guys in Gameplay didn’t actually think there’s anything you could say, do, criticise or threaten us with, that would make us alter the bans. That would be a misguided belief.

We literally never asked for that dude. What people want is evidence, consistent treatment for admins that have demonstrated similar behaviour, and an explanation for your apparent failure to follow reasonable processes.

[The Church of Satan]

I mean, I hope you guys in Gameplay didn’t actually think there’s anything you could say, do, criticise or threaten us with, that would make us alter the bans. That would be a misguided belief

That may be but TSP's refusal to provide evidence to anyone (especially the accused) has caused some of us (myself included) to lose respect for you guys. And I actually did respect you guys despite the very hostile politics of your region.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Emphasis mine. And you know this because...?

In fact, let me take this opportunity to thank regional administrators that decided not to engage in the "fun" here on GP but instead talked to us directly.

The original quote by the referenced individual:

I hope one day you make the right turn, do the right thing, and rehabilitate yourself, because the path you've chosen is not going make this game fun for you again.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the content of quote, it's clear that this neither states that she should go to rehab, nor does the context even imply it. It's like saying that "fired up and ready to go", one of several campaign chants Obama used back in 2008, was advocating for arson.

Many of the other allegations should be interpreted accordingly.

I have ears.

Sure looks like it implies it to me.

Many other allegations on both sides should be backed up with more proof, but so far they're doing better than you in that regard.

2/10 underwhelming first post on the issue since July.

---

good riddance.

Hey, I said that when I banned Tim from the TBH discord too, but see, I never accused him of harassing anyone.

---

Ugh... I'm new to TSP, but I don't really understand all this. All I do is hang around on the RMB, and most of the drama is happening forumside. Perhaps we could all calm down and resolve this nicely, calmly and without further drama? I will remain neutral, although I am leaning in Escade's favour.

Perhaps TSP could stop doubling down and either retract some of their accusations with an apology, or provide evidence to back them.

---

Aaaaand the fire's spreading to the buildings as well.
Great.
The ban could be over and we could still be arguing about this...

Yes, because frankly just undoing the ban (or editing out the accusations of harassment) doesn't begin to fix half of the problem, after weeks of this mess. Not to mention that not all of the problems relate to the bans. Hell, the bans might be deserved! Even if they're only warranted for much lesser things, the *big* problem isn't with the bans, it's with the accusations made while banning without intending to prove them.

Now, there'd still be some major questions about hypocrisy, bias, admins banning their enemies for things they do too, yada yada without those accusations, but that's a different tier of mess entirely, and a less serious one.

---

I mean, I hope you guys in Gameplay didn’t actually think there’s anything you could say, do, criticise or threaten us with, that would make us alter the bans. That would be a misguided belief.

I doubt many people thought you would. If you ban someone for OOC reasons but refuse to show evidence for it, I doubt TSP will see how unreasonable they're acting. Claiming you're an open and transparent democracy while at the same time purging political opponents for "OOC harrassment" while refusing to show evidence for that claim isn't the best way to go. Choose one side to go with.

I mean, I hope you guys in Gameplay didn’t actually think there’s anything you could say, do, criticise or threaten us with, that would make us alter the bans. That would be a misguided belief.

We literally never asked for that dude. What people want is evidence, consistent treatment for admins that have demonstrated similar behaviour, and an explanation for your apparent failure to follow reasonable processes.

Well said, both.

---

On a side note, I found the post Roavin made in my case pretty amusing.

The cabinet of The East Pacific has requested that we state the following for the public record: The dispute between The East Pacific and The Black Hawks came to a satisfactory resolution. In the reissue of the proscriptions that are planned after the delivery of the court's opinion, the Cabinet of the South Pacific does not intend to include any mention of The East Pacific.

What a non-apology for accusing me of blackmail on no basis whatsoever. Yeah, no shit that "dispute" was resolved, TEP (and TWP for that matter) made formal posts as such months ago, which we even cited earlier in the case. I don't think you even ever claimed it was anything but resolved. Acknowledging that is not even a retraction, much less an apology.

Also, are you leaking a verdict that you got to see early there, or just assuming you'll lose?

I await round two, I guess.

[Kringalia]

Also, are you leaking a verdict that you got to see early there, or just assuming you'll lose?

Oh not at all. Rulings are never shared with anyone outside the Court. Roavin knows as much about how the Court will rule as you do.

[Consular]

Also, are you leaking a verdict that you got to see early there, or just assuming you'll lose?

Oh not at all. Rulings are never shared with anyone outside the Court. Roavin knows as much about how the Court will rule as you do.

Oh well that's very reassuring to hear. I don't know about you Souls, but I'm totally convinced by these words and have no concerns whatsoever. It's not like TSP has demonstrated an inability to be trusted with its own procedures or anything

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Oh not at all. Rulings are never shared with anyone outside the Court. Roavin knows as much about how the Court will rule as you do.

Oh well that's very reassuring to hear. I don't know about you Souls, but I'm totally convinced by these words and have no concerns whatsoever. It's not like TSP has demonstrated an inability to be trusted with its own procedures or anything

I mean, I can see it just being an assumed loss, given we have the Cabinet dead to rights on everything they’ve actually presented to us - and probably could shoot down whatever they’re withholding except for the fact we don’t know what it is.

Maybe in this already-mentioned round two, I’ll actually get told what exactly I’ve supposedly done to TSP and be able to dispute it. A man can hope.

[Kringalia]

Oh not at all. Rulings are never shared with anyone outside the Court. Roavin knows as much about how the Court will rule as you do.

Oh well that's very reassuring to hear. I don't know about you Souls, but I'm totally convinced by these words and have no concerns whatsoever. It's not like TSP has demonstrated an inability to be trusted with its own procedures or anything

I’m glad to hear you’re reassured!

[The Church of Satan]

Also, are you leaking a verdict that you got to see early there, or just assuming you'll lose?

Oh not at all. Rulings are never shared with anyone outside the Court. Roavin knows as much about how the Court will rule as you do.

Don't be so humble Kringalia. We both know that's not true. We both know that TSP's court is nothing more than a figurehead for forum administration and TSP's political elite. That's been obvious for the last three years now.

[Kringalia]

Oh not at all. Rulings are never shared with anyone outside the Court. Roavin knows as much about how the Court will rule as you do.

Don't be so humble Kringalia. We both know that's not true. We both know that TSP's court is nothing more than a figurehead for forum administration and TSP's political elite. That's been obvious for the last three years now.

That’s funny. I’m sure some wish the Court was that predictable.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Can you name, without looking, the justices who have sat on our court over the past 3 years?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Can you name, without looking, the justices who have sat on our court over the past 3 years?

I bet you’re not not a REAL gamer girl, just a slut who poses with a controller and streams twitch IRL.

And to the rest of you, you’re not a REAL TSP hater if you can’t name the all the TSP justices in the past 3 years without looking. You heard me. Go on. Can’t do it? Get back to kitchen and make me a sandwich.

[Reploid Productions]

Can you name, without looking, the justices who have sat on our court over the past 3 years?

I bet you’re not not a REAL gamer girl, just a slut who poses with a controller and streams twitch IRL.

And to the rest of you, you’re not a REAL TSP hater if you can’t name the all the TSP justices in the past 3 years without looking. You heard me. Go on. Can’t do it? Get back to kitchen and make me a sandwich.

While I see the point you're making here, plz to dial it back some kthx.

[Glen-Rhodes]

If you’re going to say something as specific as TSP’s courts have been corrupt for exactly the past 3 years, then I think it’s reasonable to ask how much knowledge you have of TSP’s courts over the past 3 years. What exactly happened 3 years ago? Who was on the court?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I bet you’re not not a REAL gamer girl, just a slut who poses with a controller and streams twitch IRL.

And to the rest of you, you’re not a REAL TSP hater if you can’t name the all the TSP justices in the past 3 years without looking. You heard me. Go on. Can’t do it? Get back to kitchen and make me a sandwich.

While I see the point you're making here, plz to dial it back some kthx.

Couldn’t resist the Gatekeeping memes, sorry Noted.

[The Church of Satan]

If you’re going to say something as specific as TSP’s courts have been corrupt for exactly the past 3 years, then I think it’s reasonable to ask how much knowledge you have of TSP’s courts over the past 3 years. What exactly happened 3 years ago? Who was on the court?

Remember TAC Saxton and Apad? When forum administration illegally obtained evidence to get rid of them? Oh sure you provided several excuses but even Tsunamy saw it for what was. I can't imagine why she never did anything about it.

[North East Somerset]

IC, I think Tim/Escade got their comeuppance being kicked out of TSP for supporting the Regime there which they knew were capable of this sort of thing, and have zero sympathy with their position in-game, as I've already expressed.

A couple of days ago Tim said on Discord; "I mean the real deal skinny of tsp is it has a cabal at the very top that doesn't care too much for due process, and shoots down new people to stay in power. I didn't think it extended to ooc misconduct too, but we learn new things every day. Hell, I signed off on some of the proscriptions knowing full well that I'd not seen evidence like I've been in some corrupt places (@ ofo under my rule <3). but goddamn tsp reeks. I just obviously had no issue with it when it was profiting me"

I mean obviously there is a lot of truth to that. A lot of players have been banned for stuff in Nationstates that is dubious at best, but rarely are allegations extended OOC without evidence. And when they are, it needs to be called out.

The worrying thing here really is the inability of TSP Admin to separate IC/OOC, and their willingness to invoke the latter, for what appears to be political expediency.

I have no issue with TSP Admins removing Tim and Escade for IC reasons. But let's not start throwing around false OOC allegations.

Are there really any genuine OOC reasons other than the TSP Admins don't like them and they are inconvenience who are destabilising the region with their political agenda? If not, then fine, lets clarify that, they can remain banned, but without besmirching their RL character.

It's okay to ban for IC reasons, I've done it dozens of times, but lets be honest about it - not besmirch and taint people's real life character. This game should be better than that. I don't want to play this game with people who drag OOC into things to win, and I know I'm not alone.

TSP Admin should clarify that this was an IC political decision taken for what they believe to be the communities best interests, and that they have the full legal power to do this, but remove the allegations of OOC harassment if they are not substantive. We can all judge the merit in any IC banning (which would be best done by Executive rather than Admin powers imo ftr, but that's a personal regional structure preference not an absolute truth) - and have differing opinions on it. That's fine.

[Glen-Rhodes]

If you’re going to say something as specific as TSP’s courts have been corrupt for exactly the past 3 years, then I think it’s reasonable to ask how much knowledge you have of TSP’s courts over the past 3 years. What exactly happened 3 years ago? Who was on the court?

Remember TAC Saxton and Apad? When forum administration illegally obtained evidence to get rid of them? Oh sure you provided several excuses but even Tsunamy saw it for what was. I can't imagine why she never did anything about it.

He*

Do you remember the part where those two players were breaking the law by fraudulently writing appeals on their own rulings, but signing them as another justice? Can't imagine the vitriol GP would be sending my way had I ever done something like that.

Tim: "I mean the real deal skinny of tsp is it has a cabal at the very top that doesn't care too much for due process, and shoots down new people to stay in power."

I think there are some new TSPers who have some feelings about how Tim treated them running for office.

The worrying thing here really is the inability of TSP Admin to separate IC/OOC, and their willingness to invoke the latter, for what appears to be political expediency.

How do we determine when prolonged & sustained flaming and baiting of targeted people is IC vs OOC? Which one makes it okay?

----

Anyways, I'm still waiting on the proof on the allegation that I said Tim "came from trash."

[North East Somerset]

Tim: "I mean the real deal skinny of tsp is it has a cabal at the very top that doesn't care too much for due process, and shoots down new people to stay in power."

I think there are some new TSPers who have some feelings about how Tim treated them running for office.

The worrying thing here really is the inability of TSP Admin to separate IC/OOC, and their willingness to invoke the latter, for what appears to be political expediency.

How do we determine when prolonged & sustained flaming and baiting of targeted people is IC vs OOC? Which one makes it okay?

Neither are okay, and you can remove people from the community for either, I think I made that clear. But they should be differentiated through procedure.

I mean it's not complicated. It's IC if the content of the "prolonged & sustained flaming and baiting" is an IC matter. Like the example you just gave about how Tim treated new TSPers running for Office, sounds like classic IC politics by very definition.

But you can't have the Admin team taking IC flaming and baiting, and saying it is OOC harassment and thus defaming someone's RL character, over their actions in a game.

This is demeaning real harassment. Tim as a player can be be my worst enemy in this game, but I can have respect for him as a person. You just don't seem to fundamentally get it.

If you can't separate IC and OOC at all, that is really dangerous - you shouldn't really be playing this game, and certainly shouldn't be an Admin in a major region.

[The Church of Satan]

Remember TAC Saxton and Apad? When forum administration illegally obtained evidence to get rid of them? Oh sure you provided several excuses but even Tsunamy saw it for what was. I can't imagine why she never did anything about it.

He*

Do you remember the part where those two players were breaking the law by fraudulently writing appeals on their own rulings, but signing them as another justice? Can't imagine the vitriol GP would be sending my way had I ever done something like that.

Do you remember the part where your alleged evidence wasn't presented? What about the part where none of the justices provided the evidence because their ruling was unanimoous? What about the part where one of the three admins at the time saw how wrong and illegal your so-called evidence was obtained. Two admins (you Glen and Kringalia) were his only supporters between the High Court and forum administration however neither of you were justices. Despite that one or both of you went into a private subforum that is strictly for private deliberations between justices and used those deliberations as evidence. More than that, their only "crime" was that the Court's ruling suggested a means by which the Assembly could make to close a legal loophole which regional law said was their right to do. Both of you broke regional law to obtain your evidence. Sure as admins you legitimately had access to the High Court's deliberations but only in an OOC administrative capacity. Because it benefited you though, you approached it in an IC, political manner and labeled them as criminals for a crime that wasn't even a crime. Even worse you never presented your so called evidence. All because you disagreed with their ruling. As always, TSP's forum administration abused its power for their own gain. Hide it behind all the excuses you want but public opinion was that the lack of evidence and forum administration's bullying of the High Court was wrong. Even your root admin, Tsunamy, believed that.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

He*

Do you remember the part where those two players were breaking the law by fraudulently writing appeals on their own rulings, but signing them as another justice? Can't imagine the vitriol GP would be sending my way had I ever done something like that.

Do you remember the part where your alleged evidence wasn't presented? What about the part where none of the justices provided the evidence because their ruling was unanimoous? What about the part where one of the three admins at the time saw how wrong and illegal your so-called evidence was obtained. Two admins (you Glen and Kringalia) were his only supporters between the High Court and forum administration however neither of you were justices. Despite that one or both of you went into a private subforum that is strictly for private deliberations between justices and used those deliberations as evidence. More than that, their only "crime" was that the Court's ruling suggested a means by which the Assembly could make to close a legal loophole which regional law said was their right to do. Both of you broke regional law to obtain your evidence. Sure as admins you legitimately had access to the High Court's deliberations but only in an OOC administrative capacity. Because it benefited you though, you approached it in an IC, political manner and labeled them as criminals for a crime that wasn't even a crime. Even worse you never presented your so called evidence. All because you disagreed with their ruling. As always, TSP's forum administration abused its power for their own gain. Hide it behind all the excuses you want but public opinion was that the lack of evidence and forum administration's bullying of the High Court was wrong. Even your root admin, Tsunamy, believed that.

You’re telling me that both Kris and Glen ended being brought onto the court without a second thought even after that?

Whew.