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Embassy of the South Pacific | Détente with Balder

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6552
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:27 pm

Kringalia wrote:*raises hand*

You're not allowed to bet, you're on the court :p

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Kringalia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 795
Founded: Feb 03, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Kringalia » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:34 pm

Damn!

*resumes drafting the ruling*
Former Delegate of the South Pacific
Chief Justice and Security Councillor. Posts outside official venues should be taken as those of any other legislator.

Legal Resources: THE MATT-DUCK Law Archive | Mavenu Diplomatic Archive | Rules of the High Court | Case Submission System | Online Rulings Consultation System
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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:00 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Kringalia wrote:*raises hand*

You're not allowed to bet, you're on the court :p

He's on TSP's court. He can open up a casino and not get in trouble. :lol:
R.I.P. Dyakovo
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Ashmoria
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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6552
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:01 pm

RiderSyl wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:You're not allowed to bet, you're on the court :p

He's on TSP's court. He can open up a casino and not get in trouble. :lol:

Sure, but this is my casino. Blatant corruption isn't allowed

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Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9027
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:44 pm

Escade wrote:What happened recently that led to the bans? One clear political faction was unable to prevent Tim from reaching second place in the delegate elections.


What most closely preceded your ban was the several complaints we got specifically mentioning you, including a player who *quit the game because of you*. You chalked that up to them being jealous of your Escade Event Services project.

More recently they were unable to get their candidate for Regional Affairs to win even after they flamed the new rising player who's tactics they publicly reviled and privately adapted (DM campaigning).


I voted for Islands of Unity for MoRA, and publicly defended them against criticism for campaigning privately via DMs. So that puts a wrinkle in this narrative you’re trying to construct.

If I were a regional admin myself I would be looking at this ban and trying to protect my community from such dangerous players.


And this is exactly what I’m talking about when I say NSGP is getting hoodwinked. The only people who have called you two “dangerous” (or other similar nonsense) is you and Tim. It’s so much easier to construct a sympathetic narrative if TSP admins are accusing you of misconduct on of the highest levels. You get to rile up NSGP by raising the stakes that high, and TSP admins can’t show evidence of that level of behavior... because it doesn’t exist, and we never accused you of it.

So you go around saying we’re calling you dangerous, accusing you of “harassment” with the connotation of it being sexualized or at that same level of abuse, and all that stuff that raises the stakes beyond what they really are... flaming, baiting, and trolling that would get you redtexted here, not shunned and isolated for life. The *only* people who have painted that picture are you and Tim. And too many GPers fell for it hook, line, and sinker, without taking even a moment to question whether you two would have reason to misrepresent for your own benefit.

The rest of your post is premised on the false narrative you and Tim constructed to get automatic sympathy, so you can exact revenge politically... which has been the MO for months. You both have serious difficultly understanding the lines between IC political feuds and OOC personal fights that go way overboard.
Last edited by Glen-Rhodes on Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6545
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:50 pm

Again with this "GP thinks that harassment means serious OOC stuff but they're wrong we only means that they broke normal forum rules" line. Assuming this is not a late-stage cop-out, in what damn world did you expect to be able to throw around words like harassment and expect people to assume you just meant flaming? Why take two weeks to bother to begin to try and "clarify" this?

Like, to me it's pretty simple. Whatever the actions were, they're either *harassment*, in which case it's a serious OOC matter, or they're not, in which case you shouldn't be calling it harassment and then saying you don't actually mean "harassment" just..."harassment?"

I mean, you literally said

"GP is willingly misrepresenting what harassment means, in order to raise the stakes and make it seem like Escade and Tim were banned for real-life misconduct instead of simply breaking flamebaiting rules that exist on every forum on the internet."

>>GP is willingly misrepresenting
>>what harassment means
>>to make it seem like it's serious misconduct
>>when it's really just basic flamebaiting

Do you understand just how asinine this post is?
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

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Omnis delenda est.

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Aclion
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6247
Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Aclion » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:13 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:So you go around saying we’re calling you dangerous, accusing you of “harassment” with the connotation of it being sexualized or at that same level of abuse, and all that stuff that raises the stakes beyond what they really are... flaming, baiting, and trolling that would get you redtexted here, not shunned and isolated for life. The *only* people who have painted that picture are you and Tim.

I expect then that the statement made by Tsunamy that says that you found "clear and ongoing harassment" will be retracted. Harassment is an extremely serious accusation and not a word you should be throwing around when you don't mean it.
Last edited by Aclion on Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9027
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:14 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Assuming this is not a late-stage cop-out, in what damn world did you expect to be able to throw around words like harassment and expect people to assume you just meant flaming? Why take two weeks to bother to begin to try and "clarify" this?


Every admin that’s spoken about this, since day 1, has said the bans were being over-dramatized and misrepresented. We said over and over again that it was about flaming and baiting on TSP’s Discord and forum, that the problem was hostility and personal attacks. If this the first time you’ve heard it, it’s because you’ve been too busy over-dramatizing it yourself.

Like, to me it's pretty simple. Whatever the actions were, they're either *harassment*, in which case it's a serious OOC matter, or they're not, in which case you shouldn't be calling it harassment and then saying you don't actually mean "harassment" just..."harassment?"


What do you call a sustained, months-long series of personal attacks, baiting, and trolling against a targeted groups of players?

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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6545
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:24 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Assuming this is not a late-stage cop-out, in what damn world did you expect to be able to throw around words like harassment and expect people to assume you just meant flaming? Why take two weeks to bother to begin to try and "clarify" this?


Every admin that’s spoken about this, since day 1, has said the bans were being over-dramatized and misrepresented. We said over and over again that it was about flaming and baiting on TSP’s Discord and forum, that the problem was hostility and personal attacks. If this the first time you’ve heard it, it’s because you’ve been too busy over-dramatizing it yourself.

Like, to me it's pretty simple. Whatever the actions were, they're either *harassment*, in which case it's a serious OOC matter, or they're not, in which case you shouldn't be calling it harassment and then saying you don't actually mean "harassment" just..."harassment?"


What do you call a sustained, months-long series of personal attacks, baiting, and trolling against a targeted groups of players?


See, even here's you're *still fucking doing it*

In one half:

>>"the bans were being over-dramatized and misrepresented"
>>"it was about flaming and baiting on TSP’s Discord and forum"
>>downplaying the severity

In the other half:

>>What do you call a sustained, months-long series of personal attacks, baiting, and trolling against a targeted groups of players?

YES, THAT IS WHAT I WOULD CALL HARASSMENT. HARASSMENT SHOULD BE PROVEN.

If there is a targeted campaign to harass people, as you keep insisting there is, then you're making an accusation of harassment, and need to prove harassment occurred. It's not a hard fucking concept. It sounds like you're describing harassment, except then you go and say "but you're overplaying how bad it is." A "months-long series of personal attacks, baiting, and trolling against a targeted groups of players" sounds like pretty damn bad harassment. That should be easy to prove. You're playing it as pretty bad...until you're not.

It can't be some magical state of harassment that is "harassment" enough for you to call it harassment, but not "harassment" enough to have to prove it was harassment.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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PT Hawk
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Sep 08, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby PT Hawk » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:48 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:Every admin that’s spoken about this, since day 1, has said the bans were being over-dramatized and misrepresented. We said over and over again that it was about flaming and baiting on TSP’s Discord and forum, that the problem was hostility and personal attacks. If this the first time you’ve heard it, it’s because you’ve been too busy over-dramatizing it yourself.

What do you call a sustained, months-long series of personal attacks, baiting, and trolling against a targeted groups of players?


>It wasn't THAT bad
>omg it's been a torrential campaign of harassment omgomgomg

Pick one, G-R
PT Huo
Political activist by day, NationStates raider by night

Corporal of The Black Hawks

"The political revolution is not about one election or one candidate. It is about transforming America and continuing the fight for economic, social, racial and environmental justice. We have to continue to work together to advance the progressive future we all support." - Bernie Sanders

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McManniaa
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 118
Founded: Feb 24, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby McManniaa » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:57 pm

Jeez glen, you're gonna give yourself a brain aneurysm if you keep trying to bend the fabric of reality to try and make this dubious and contradictory chain of logic work.

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The Church of Satan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1312
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:14 am

He's got you there Glen. You backpedal any further you're gonna moon walk right outta this thread. If you presented this alleged evidence (at least to the accused) you could bring this scandal almost to a stop. >_>
The Rejected Realms: Former Delegate | Former Vice Delegate | Longest Consecutively Serving Officer in TRR History - 824 Days

Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

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Escade
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1019
Founded: Apr 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Escade » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:23 am

For those who don't have access, I'd like to bring up former delegate, former TSP admin, and long-term NS player's questions that remain unanswered:

Image

It's not allegedly a serious ban but we went from 48 hours to 8 months without any official warnings in between or at all really (conveniently 8 months is two cabinet terms\election cycles). We've all seen how moderation works on NSGP or other forums. Players get warnings for specific posts, usually it begins with warnings before going to a 24 hour ban or maybe 48 hours and then works its way up from there (but is always tied to specific posts and actions and an established history so the player knows clearly what the lines are that they have crossed). Going from 48 hours to 8 months with nothing in between is ridiculous in itself.

I have exactly one forum warning that is worded exactly the same for me and Tim with no differentiation. While I've become a lot closer to Tim since this whole witchhunt, we've disagreed about political and other things while managing to keep it civil. Looking through my DMs one of the admin even tells me that we're just chatting\venting in our conversations and its all not official unless it comes with some sort of "official" mention. I have to state "I'd like to officially request" to get any official action (more on that later).

Tsunamy also states the same exact thing about the forum warning, that it is official (the first official one and the only one) and that I have to agree to which of my responses to it are also "official." In that "official warning" we are told if we apologize for unnamed alleged toxicity we will be just fine. My response was very clearly that I want to know exactly what I am apologizing for.

Of the two things that came out publicly in the Legislator Lounge (use of pings, IC criticism such as "incompetent"), I pointed out how admin had clearly engaged in the same action without any repercussions whatsoever (one even on the same day). That was a Sunday night, next morning I was banned because ... oh yes, admin is hypocritical and engages in far worse behavior. And this conveniently timed ban, after both Tim and I apologized to the innocent for being part of a political feud, also allows them to cover up their tracks as they've always done.

Tim and I were also banned from the MoFA and MoRA servers which goes against the precedent that ministers choose who is or is not banned from their servers (unless its a severe OOC issue of course). One minister stated he wasn't even asked and didn't even know when we were banned and the other is being threatened by an admin (who is ready to "take action") and probably has no idea either that admin went in behind his back.

Let's remember that these ministers asked Tim and I to help them and wanted us to work with them (even going so far as to want to use my events services to run an upcoming allied event). I'm assuming that the festival server was brought up because insecure members of cabinet presented it as a "threat" to the region and one member publicly stated that I better not try to represent TSP in any way. The real goal of admin has been to shut Tim and myself out of any possible avenues of political influence. They can't even keep their stories straight and any evidence they point to, such as this server, speaks to their positioning me as a threat for my political influence.

Here's the reason that Glenn-Rhodes can't bring up any evidence. There is no real evidence. There is hearsay and IC political feuds but there is no evidence whatsoever that either Tim or I engaged in actions that are in any way new to the TSP political machine. There is in fact plenty of evidence that admin acted in the same, or worse ways, themselves and justified it or are now trying to cover it up with this ban. It's convenient that, when Tim said he would counter file against Glenn-Rhodes for harassment by those same standards, he was banned so he can't collate evidence. This is why I simply proposed legislation about admin being held accountable because they are unable to keep their politics and administration separate at all.

Now that thread is being cited as evidence of why I should be banned.
Last edited by Escade on Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tim-Opolis
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Posts: 6226
Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:24 am

Glen keeps arguing that it was for flaming and baiting, yet that is at best 1/4 of what the listed reasons for the ban were by the Root Admin. Now I know Glen loves constructing his own reality, especially with Tsunamy on a month-long LOA to avoid having to deal with this. So, I've posted this in plenty of places already, so I may as well post it here too: https://i.imgur.com/Q2zftxX.png

Here's a transcription of what Root Admin Tsunamy sent me to notify me of this investigation. It is the only official communication I received from any Administrator on the matter:

Dear Tim, on behalf of the Admin Team

There have been multiple official complaints filed against you with the Admin Team, regarding a pattern of abusive behavior and slander against several individuals, including but not limited to Farengeto, Glen-Rhodes, and Nakari. In particular, the Admin Team has received statements and testimony attesting to frequent targeted attacks, personal attacks, harassment, and false accusations of OOC misconduct. We find the testimonies credible and alarming.

This pattern of behavior is in violation of the community rules, particularly Rules 1 and 8, but also contributes generally to a negative and unwelcoming environment. At least one player has attributed their leaving the game to this environment, and another explicitly to your behavior, with other players expressing that they are on the verge of leaving as well.

While there is always some disagreement to be had with others in the region, this level of vitriol and frequent attacks is inappropriate and simply cannot continue. What has occurred is far more than in-game political fighting. At this juncture, the Admin Team is considering administrative action. This can be avoided if you acknowledge the behavior described above, write a public apology to the affected individuals, and disavow the false accusations. Reconciliation would be better for everybody, but it requires a genuine apology and changed behavior.

Please respond within the next three days or further administrative action may be taken.

- tsunamy
[forum admin]


Let's start with the accusations. Frequent Targeted Attacks, Personal Attacks, Harassment, and False Accusations of OOC Misconduct. You could potentially file two of those under Glen's alternate-reality of flaming and baiting related offenses, except I didn't attack anyone on an OOC personal level, and "Frequent Targeted Attacks" is a charge that's more or less full of horseshit. Let's translate that to what it really was: "Tim repeatedly criticized inactive members of the Cabinet for their inactivity, as they continued to be inactive despite promises of activity". Meanwhile, Harassment and False Accusations of OOC Misconduct sure as hell aren't casual "Flaming and Baiting" charges. GP is quite fucking aware of what the word Harassment entails, and the Admins are well fucking aware of that context as well.

All the charges, presented as they were by Root Admin Tsunamy, should have easily accessible evidence given the seriousness of them. One thing of note is that Glen keeps going on about how long it would take to collect the evidence, and how it spans many months, which seems to be implying that tsp Administration potentially did not even collect and analyze comprehensive evidence before laying down two OOC bans on evidence they claimed to have so much of.

Now, you'll notice I said this was the only official communication I received from Admins. What I haven't said yet is that I replied pretty quickly to that message, asking for a few clarifications (asking if they could tell me what false accusation I made so I could retract it, asking more specificity on what I'm being accused of, etc). I was met with radio silence. Better yet, I spoke with Tsunamy over Discord DMs to let him know I had a really packed work schedule so it might take a bit to give him a more comprehensive reply. He told me it was fine. I then told him I replied to him with an initial reply, and asked when could expect a reply. I have not heard one word from him since. Then, Glen-Rhodes, who really should have been recused from an investigation he has such a personal stake in (considering he has actively attempted to not just hurt Escade and I IC, but to kill off some of the OOC friendships formed with people around us), stated that the message was ignored because I... well, I'll just quote Glen.

"Tim feigned ignorance, saying he didn't know what problems we were even talking about. "

To be clear, I told Tsunamy I wanted to have a few more details, was completely willing to cooperate, and asked to know what OOC false accusation I made as I did not think I could in good faith retract a claim if I did not know what that claim was. Apparently, rather than following any responsible or professional conduct, it was instead decided that I was feigning ignorance. What fucking perverted Administrative system is this, that claims to be interested in reconciliation, but then actively ignores paths along that. It's pretty fucking clear that whole part of Tsunamy's PM was just for show, attempting to make Escade and I look uncooperative rather than the Admins being corrupt and misusing their roles. What troubles me even mo[e about Tsunamy showing my PM to Glen-Rhodes was that I had told him in my reply that I intended to file charges against Glen with the Admins in return. It's interesting, isn't it, that the Admins went radio silent after being informed of that.

Also, anyone find it interesting that Glen was seemingly arguing and ruling in an Administrative Case that he was also involved in filing charges for? I mean, I ain't saying that's corrupt as fuck but... oh, that's exactly what I'm saying.




One last bit - These rules that the Admins cite:

Rule 1: Always be respectful of other users, moderators, administrators, and the forum itself. This means you should not flame anybody, troll, or bait others. Neither you should call others names. Try to be respectful of others' views and beliefs, even if you don't agree with them.

Rule 8: Do not make false accusations in order to tarnish the reputations of other people. If you make an accusation, it is your responsibility to provide sufficient proof.

I find Rule 8 really interesting in particular, because the Admin Team themselves are currently breaking it. To this moment, they have provided no proof of the serious OOC charges they have been leveraging against Escade and I as gospel truth, acting as if their position as Administrators makes them above accountability. All this mess progressing continues to reinforce is that Tsunamy, Glen-Rhodes, Roavin, and Kringalia had no interest of ever acting in Good Faith on this matter, and were only looking to burn political rivals out of the region with trumped up rhetoric and charges that even they have been backtracking on since.

Oh, and to be clear, despite some individuals in the Admin Team having their own repulsive behavior, they've completely ignored and obstructed attempts to make another part of the rules be upheld. That part of the rules is the following:

NO EXCEPTIONS
It's also important to mention that moderators and administrators are not above the rules. They are expected to abide by them, and can be given the same punishments as a regular user.


Glen-Rhodes has said far worse things, where is his punishment? When his attempted emotional manipulation and isolation of her from her friends by actively trying to kill some of her frienships was brought up, Roavin, his fellow Admin, defended Glen by claiming that Glen just meant well and that it wasn't actionable. Apparently all you have to do to get away with seriously toxic shit is "mean well", what a time to be alive.

The Church of Satan wrote:He's got you there Glen. You backpedal any further you're gonna moon walk right outta this thread. If you presented this alleged evidence (at least to the accused) you could bring this scandal almost to a stop. >_>


Right, except their "evidence" is a mix of being non-existent and non-actionable, based on what they so far have been willing to share.
Last edited by Tim-Opolis on Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kurnugia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 934
Founded: Feb 21, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Kurnugia » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:03 am

Let's just say that I am glad that I do not cooperate much with TSP nowadays.
Big Sister has always been Big Sister


AUTHOR OF ISSUE 1201

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Imkitopia
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 12
Founded: May 23, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Imkitopia » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:20 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:What do you call a sustained, months-long series of personal attacks, baiting, and trolling against a targeted groups of players?

Just another day in TSP.

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Queen Yuno
Diplomat
 
Posts: 699
Founded: Dec 30, 2015
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Queen Yuno » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:30 pm

Escade wrote:I have always tried to follow the legal route, or the rules of fair play, and therefore have been waiting for the regional administrators who volunteered to provide some guidance. Former delegates, long-time community members and former administrators of the South Pacific and other regions have been stonewalled in trying to get any answers. That, in itself, is highly disturbing. I also urge everyone to read Souls' post here as it sums up the situation quite clearly.

Please be utterly clear that this ban is purely motivated by foul play, hypocrisy and the kind of disgusting political weaponization of administration that has brought TSP to a new low. What happened recently that led to the bans? One clear political faction was unable to prevent Tim from reaching second place in the delegate elections. More recently they were unable to get their candidate for Regional Affairs to win even after they flamed the new rising player who's tactics they publicly reviled and privately adapted (DM campaigning). What was a 48 hour ban for four players, with simply one warning (do not engage with each other) became a 8 month ban for the two players who 1. Did not break the rules of the ban and tried to avoid engaging and 2. Were not the admin team, of which two members have made it their public goal to remove their political enemies from the region for a convenient period of time that coincides with election cycles.

The question is not about whether or not I, or Tim, want to stay in the South Pacific. It is that our reputations have been slandered on an OOC basis. If I were a regional admin myself I would be looking at this ban and trying to protect my community from such dangerous players. In fact, I have banned players from my private servers based on the testimony (without evidence) of respected admin. In this situation though TSP admin, having not been able to use IC political tactics to remove us from political influence, resorted to the most depraved method possible. How does anyone trust admin after this?

Why does this administration constantly refuse to create clear guidelines and follow a clear system of warnings? So they can continue to punish only those that they want to punish. The most disgusting thing about this whole ordeal is that Tsunamy, Kringalia, Glenn-Rhodes and Roavin afforded more rights to known OOC harassers. That is what is truly repulsive about this situation. How utterly vile does a player have to be to afford more rights to actually horrific people OOC then their IC political enemies?

Now we have the root admin incapable of responding to the legitimate questions asked by a long-term community member, former delegate, and former admin here. Tsunamy has taken a one month Leave of Absence so he doesn't have to deal with the actual implications and consequences of his actions. The rest of the admin are so inextricably biased in their enemies or favoritism over certain factions that they shouldn't be dealing with this case because they have shown no ability to be fair or impartial in this or other cases. After all one admin implied I was being punished because of Imki and his bad blood with her.

Tsunamy cites Unibot’s GP opinion as influencing his actions in that thread (and also cites Cormac but according to Cormac, Glenn-Rhodes and Roavin should also be banned - so where's the parity at least?). Of course that the admin of TSP uses Unibot's GP opinion as an opinion to follow is disturbing as equally disturbing that he cites Cormac's opinion since Tsunamy did state that one of his goals was to get Cormac to ragequit TSP last year and he successfully got him to ragequit (it's in the Legislator Lounge).

That flamebaiting a player into ragequitting was considered acceptable and IC though. Because it was Cormac? Was that IC or OOC? That's only one of the things I've witnessed admin do and call it all part of the game. And unlike them I have no qualms in providing a list of actions with the appropriate venues where the evidence can be found or sharing the DMs. Publicly. Tsunamy would be the most innocent of these admin because at least he's not in Unibot's fanclub, at least not in the actual server. This same admin, Tsunamy, deflecting the questions that hold him accountable, randomly links threads that are all IC as “proof” and states that anyone else can link to other evidence if they wish to. What the hell? "It's not one comment, its unexplainable" is utter bullshit and entirely an inappropriate response to claiming players committed OOC harassment.

If those are the standards for building a case then anyone can cherry pick through years of NSGP or forums or Discord and find one-sided, out of context evidence that allegedly proves toxicity. Context, patterns of history and behavior, especially for IC political feuds are key to establish anything. By banning us and preventing us from accessing the discord and forums they also effectively prevent us from counter filing or showing how they have created the standards and are choosing to selectively and, without any moderation, punish their IC enemies.

I also knew, when I chose not to throw a friend and ally under the bus, that I was going to be pushed out one way or another. It didn't matter that I was a former delegate and six time minister in the region; I chose not to side with the admin and I predicted my ousting publicly months ago. When trying to stick "coup\security" threat on me didn't work they resorted to weaponization of admin.

If had to make the same choice again, knowing what was coming, I would do so in a heartbeat. So the question is not about me staying in the region, there’s plenty else I can do and I appreciate the support from other players and regions. It’s about how entirely hypocritical and despicable this whole action was and how TSP administration cannot be trusted. And that's a problem for not just me and Tim but the entire NS community. This is why I ask all allies, administration in particular, to stop this kind of admin weaponization before it ruins the rest of the community.

Those interested in actually creating a better community engage in dialogue, communication, and use models and escalating steps. They model appropriate behavior and encourage it. This ban has nothing to do with toxicity and everything to do with dirty politics. That's sickening.



I think what Souls is saying is very simple (speaking not as a gameside-gov delegate but as a person with common sense relating to an OOC admin integrity affair:)

While the bans for "flaming" make sense, TSP admins should retract the statement that called it "harassment" by making an additional post within the same thread clarifying that the reason was flaming/baiting/trolling (and preferably with a few logs) (and can apologize for the miswording, whoever wrote it.)

That sums up basic administrative standards.

Escade was caught off guard with the ban too because she wasn't talking at all and the next day she was kicked out, which okay that makes total sense since she was flaming the people who allegedly backstabbed her, but no one's calling Escade+Tim harassers, the 1 statement posted by TSP Admin called it clear harassment. So we're really angry over the one thread and the easy solution is to clarify that the wrong words were used but keep the ban. You can't call that harassment.
Last edited by Queen Yuno on Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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No way

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Escade
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Posts: 1019
Founded: Apr 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Escade » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:32 pm

To clarify my position, an 8 month ban for alleged flaming is not appropriate at all and does not make any sense in any scheme of moderation especially with only one official warning given and a 48 hour ban preceding it. That warning too was "apologize for unknown sins and you'll be good to go." The eight months is highly problematic because it is a political time frame that coincides with TSP elections and is administration weaponizing moderation for their political goals. They tried every other House of Cards trick and ended up here.

Harsh political IC arguments seem to be on par for the course in the Legislator Lounge and admin engaged in this behavior over the past several months and actually years regularly. The issue of toxicity, as I pointed out in the lounge has come up every six months or so with no one actually trying to do anything about it or conversations stalling. Every time I've tried to suggest a transparent method that holds everyone accountable, it's been flat out rejected in public or ignored. Including by admin the weekend before I was banned. I asked, publicly in Legislators Lounge, "Can we create fair standards that apply to everyone equally?" The admin answered publicly, "No." You don't get to selectively apply rules when it suits you. As Tim, outlined, moderation\admin are not above the law. Of course, TSP has been a lawless or selectively legal place for some time.

Here's a tactic alleged as being IC or OOC in TSP, depending on the admin's mood (pinging players or mentioning them repeatedly):
1. A player, not holding any government position whatsoever asks admin to get another admin to stop bringing up the MoNC and pinging her since it only leads to arguments. The admin states that they have talked to this admin. The admin does not in fact stop pinging or trying to jump into this player's conversations for a period of months. The admin even goes so far as to alert the legislator lounge that this player, who he is aggressively questioning, is chatting in NSGP Discord instead of answering his questions. Is this prolonged and targeted harassment or harsh IC political tactics? It entirely depends, it seems, on whether the admin feel like it.

I respected the original 48 hour ban in which Tim, myself and the other faction, Roavin and Glenn were not supposed to address each other in any way, shape or form. Roavin not only did continue to address us but also continued to bait both Tim and I alternating between attacking us and implying that we should remain his OOC friends or some other nonsense. You can't force people to be your friend or be faux friendly with you or even talk to you if they don't want to. Especially when removing them from the region, at least politically, is your stated goal. And let's not forget that he publicly stated that the MoNC was IC and yet since it was issued I knew it was going to be used in an OOC way. Everyone who has looked at it has stated that it's a political action. Yet the admin use it as part of their evidence and discussion.

The eight month ban is utter bullshit, everything about this is utter bullshit.

We haven't even gotten to "prolonged and targeted harassment" when it comes to Glenn-Rhodes, who lost an MoFA election to Tim and since then has been on an unholy mission to remove Tim from TSP by any means necessary. The methods he used were distasteful to say the least and based on his own standards most likely OOC.

For those wondering why I chose Tim in this whole conflict between these guys - well Glenn presented an ultimatum to choose between him and Tim and stated his intentions to remove Tim, including stating in a public place that Tim came from trash. He also DMed me to try to convince me that Tim was a terrible human being. When that didn't work he DMed my close friend Ian to convince him to not be my friend either all because I wouldn't help him get rid of Tim. What are those tactics? Oh, according to Glenn those are nice things to do. His actions were made in "good faith." Seriously?

On the other hand, Tim agreed to mediate his issues and talk with Glenn and never tried to make me choose who I could or couldn't be friends with. I will never respond well to ultimatums or people trying to control me or who I can be friends with. That's why I'm in this ship, sink or swim.

The only fair solution in this would have been a temporary ban, of an appropriate length following the 48 hour one, for all involved parties. Instead we have the admin abusing their power and authority and getting what they wanted - a political ban that they explain as OOC harrassment and can't support with any evidence.
Last edited by Escade on Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 3026
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:45 pm

Not sure what anyone can say at this point, beyond expressing profound disappointment with TSP's admin team.

It's like you guys are actively trying to usurp the shittiest admin throne from TNP eh

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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Posts: 6545
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:13 pm

Consular wrote:Not sure what anyone can say at this point, beyond expressing profound disappointment with TSP's admin team.

It's like you guys are actively trying to usurp the shittiest admin throne from TNP eh


"Conversations in public and private with the admin team have gone nowhere at best, backwards at worst. TSP has 2 weeks to resolve X issues to Y standards, or we will enforce Z consequences until the issues have been both rectified permanently and apologized for sincerely. We mean the members of the region no ill will, and encourage them to push their administrative team to meet basic administrative standards, or find a team that will."
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Roavin
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Founded: Apr 07, 2016
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Roavin » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:42 am

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:"Conversations in public and private with the admin team have gone nowhere at best, backwards at worst. TSP has 2 weeks to resolve X issues to Y standards, or we will enforce Z consequences until the issues have been both rectified permanently and apologized for sincerely. We mean the members of the region no ill will, and encourage them to push their administrative team to meet basic administrative standards, or find a team that will."


Emphasis mine. And you know this because...?

In fact, let me take this opportunity to thank regional administrators that decided not to engage in the "fun" here on GP but instead talked to us directly.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:How many times is TSP going to go through this cycle before it tries to remove the common factor in all of these incidents? The common group that everyone has an issue with? The group that, to quote Escade again, "told [me] that I needed to got to rehab" for refusing to join in on what she saw as people toxically ganging up on other people?


The original quote by the referenced individual:

I hope one day you make the right turn, do the right thing, and rehabilitate yourself, because the path you've chosen is not going make this game fun for you again.


Whether one agrees or disagrees with the content of quote, it's clear that this neither states that she should go to rehab, nor does the context even imply it. It's like saying that "fired up and ready to go", one of several campaign chants Obama used back in 2008, was advocating for arson.

Many of the other allegations should be interpreted accordingly.
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and democracy wanking is peak defender
" — Tim

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Southern Bellz
Diplomat
 
Posts: 627
Founded: Oct 04, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Southern Bellz » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:46 am

good riddance.

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Tandriheer
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 13
Founded: Sep 07, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Tandriheer » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:51 am

Ugh... I'm new to TSP, but I don't really understand all this. All I do is hang around on the RMB, and most of the drama is happening forumside. Perhaps we could all calm down and resolve this nicely, calmly and without further drama? I will remain neutral, although I am leaning in Escade's favour.
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Kringalia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 795
Founded: Feb 03, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Kringalia » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:16 am

Consular wrote:Not sure what anyone can say at this point, beyond expressing profound disappointment with TSP's admin team.

It's like you guys are actively trying to usurp the shittiest admin throne from TNP eh

I mean, I hope you guys in Gameplay didn’t actually think there’s anything you could say, do, criticise or threaten us with, that would make us alter the bans. That would be a misguided belief.
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RiderSyl
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Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:21 am

Kringalia wrote:I mean, I hope you guys in Gameplay didn’t actually think there’s anything you could say, do, criticise or threaten us with, that would make us alter the bans. That would be a misguided belief.


I don't think anyone has had faith that TSP would see the light.
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