Embassy of the South Pacific

[Salvarity]

Imagine getting worked up over NS.

Wheres that popcorn bag at?

That's a kinda unfair attitude. Some people are very invested in this game and it's not entirely unreasonable that they get upset when they feel screwed over.

Fully agreed with your sentiment.

I'm at the point where people saying "it's just a game" annoy me more than people who forget it's a game.

Yes it's a game; but it's a game where people have invested dozens (or hundreds when we consider the people being discussed in this thread) of hours into. Of course they will be worked up, angry, disappointed, and a whole host of other emotions, when that work is effectively thrown away.

[Lord Dominator]

That's a kinda unfair attitude. Some people are very invested in this game and it's not entirely unreasonable that they get upset when they feel screwed over.

Fully agreed with your sentiment.

I'm at the point where people saying "it's just a game" annoy me more than people who forget it's a game.

Yes it's a game; but it's a game where people have invested dozens (or hundreds when we consider the people being discussed in this thread) of hours into. Of course they will be worked up, angry, disappointed, and a whole host of other emotions, when that work is effectively thrown away.

Even hundreds seems kinda low tbh

[KhanterWinters]

Whatever happened to the tl;dr?

TL;DR: Only jar answer me <3, Tim and Escade situation a bit in flames right now, Glen got annoyed because proly Cormac misunderstood his words (what I do highly doubt), People is just saying that TSP must be abandoned by the high value people and let it burn with Glen/Kris/ect... you know, the stuff of always.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Whatever happened to the tl;dr?

No one else helped me make it a thing, even after that post I made, so I took some advice...

[The Sanada Clan]

Imagine getting worked up over NS.

Wheres that popcorn bag at?

That's a kinda unfair attitude. Some people are very invested in this game and it's not entirely unreasonable that they get upset when they feel screwed over.

Being invested and getting screwed and being toxic are two different things. Not throwing any names but the people involved in this crisis have a history of toxicity. Lala has surely witnessed it many times to the point that who ever gets punished pretty much deserved it. But that's lalas opinion. You guys have your own opinions on it and lala respects it.

[Consular]

That's a kinda unfair attitude. Some people are very invested in this game and it's not entirely unreasonable that they get upset when they feel screwed over.

Being invested and getting screwed and being toxic are two different things. Not throwing any names but the people involved in this crisis have a history of toxicity. Lala has surely witnessed it many times to the point that who ever gets punished pretty much deserved it. But that's lalas opinion. You guys have your own opinions on it and lala respects it.

Does talking in the third person not make you feel uncomfortable?

[Benevolent Thomas]

Being invested and getting screwed and being toxic are two different things. Not throwing any names but the people involved in this crisis have a history of toxicity. Lala has surely witnessed it many times to the point that who ever gets punished pretty much deserved it. But that's lalas opinion. You guys have your own opinions on it and lala respects it.

Does talking in the third person not make you feel uncomfortable?

Benevolent Thomas does not believe it makes lala uncomfortable nor does it make Benevolent Thomas uncomfortable.

[Kurnugia]

Yes it's a game; but it's a game where people have invested dozens (or hundreds when we consider the people being discussed in this thread) of hours into. Of course they will be worked up, angry, disappointed, and a whole host of other emotions, when that work is effectively thrown away.

If you have leisure that doesnt relax you anymore, you should take a break from it. So yeah I agree with Lala. Getting worked up over NS (or leisure for that matter) is a stupid thing to do.

[Malphe]

Does talking in the third person not make you feel uncomfortable?

Benevolent Thomas does not believe it makes lala uncomfortable nor does it make Benevolent Thomas uncomfortable.

Malphe holds talking in the third person as far superior to all other options.

[Zukchiva]

Benevolent Thomas does not believe it makes lala uncomfortable nor does it make Benevolent Thomas uncomfortable.

Malphe holds talking in the third person as far superior to all other options.

Second person is obviously the most superior of them all.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Malphe holds talking in the third person as far superior to all other options.

Second person is obviously the most superior of them all.

*You think to yourself, “second person is obviously the most superior of them all.”

[Lord Dominator]

I'd like to talk about a couple oddities going on in the TSP admin team.

---

First of all, we have this rather disturbing play-through of how the Tim/Escade ban has gone down.

Most of the administration team that laid down the ban was directly involved in opposition to Tim/Escade in whatever arguments and such went on in TSP (the only exception being Tsu, who is noted by people on both sides and self-admission to not have to want to deal with these sorts of things).

By the admins own admission (here) few warnings were given, one of which was entirely IC, and thus should not be viewed as one, even if Glen claims that it somehow acts as the initial warning. #3, not only have the accused not been informed of what exactly they're being banned for (see here) and here, but given the supposed actions of Tim & Escade (allegedly harassment and bullying); GP itself and other regional admins have to ask and ask for what went on and the evidence only to be denied, but said regional admins shouldn't have to push to get this kind of stuff in the first place, if what they did was supposedly so horrible. Of course, the main excuse here (and that's exactly what it is) is that the 'evidence' is so spread out as to make collecting it a right pain to get it all together. Yet somehow, this doesn't stop a ban based off of said evidence. Finally of course, it is expressly noted in TSP's own rules that attacks without evidence are not allowed, except of course that the entire banning is being conducted as such (here) Am I alone in seeing how this might be a problem? (Do note I am not saying the ban was necessarily unjustified, but that it was done in an outright affront on sane banning procedures).

Of course, outside the whole ban itself, we have the express fact that the other side of the conflict here (ie, Glen/Roavin, mostly speaking), have managed to get away with no consequences whatsoever. Notably, the former individual has been noted previously to engage in this sort of behaviour (here, here, here and here), to the point I have personally seen more than a few TSPers comments that going something along the lines of it not being Glen, this time. And yet Glen somehow remains an admin and trusted figure in the region. Go figure

Finally of course, one could certainly argue that I'm largely sourcing from people with known grudges or dislike of TSP. And that would be true. However, it's pretty hard when the admins there not only won't share much of anything on the subject, but large parts of the region choose not to discuss it externally (especially the GP forum and Discord). Is it any wonder why people dislike the admin team more and more (and the region by extension) when you don't respond to rather simple questions for more information, or even argue your position at all?

Of almost secondary note to the above points of course, is that the administration team is in pretty firm control of the rest of the regional controls. Both executives (Delegate and PM), the Court (2/3), and the Legislature (Chair). Is it any wonder why they feel no need to explain themselves, when the only real consequences can come from outside TSP?

Perhaps I forgot something I meant to talk about in the above, so feel free to add in what I missed. So in all this, where is the outrage over poor admin procedures and consequences for such? There has been a little bit here and there, but almost nothing compared to what happened the last time someone got accused of bad stuff and banned without evidence - Imki & NSWF/TNP. When that happened people were practically baying for blood, and actually caused change in TNP. Where is that here, when the situation is arguably more clear-cut (and the individuals in question are barely bothering to defend themselves)?

---

The other (shorter) oddity would be that of the private server with Unibot, and most of the aforementioned administration team (sans Tsu) being there. Or to quote who I would consider a reliable source on the matter;

The latter. It's Kringalia's private server, with Farengeto, Glen-Rhodes, Unibot, Kringalia, and Roavin being some of the major mainstays. Most others who'd get invited don't stick around long once noticing Unibot, I imagine.

(in response to my question for clarification on the server details.) Now perhaps this was missed in all the other conversation, but since when was Unibot supposed to be contacted at all, or what have you? After all, last I had heard, he was persona-non-grata in all of GP. So why then, are most of the major figures in TSP hanging out with him on a private server? Notably, when Tim tried to discuss this in TSP, the forum thread was shut-down for allegedly being 'in bad faith' and 'grave-digging' (here, with the actual thread itself being behind at minimum an account wall; and I encourage anyone who can see it to share what went on in it). Now I'm not commenting on whether or not hanging out with Unibot is bad or not, but I am questioning when the prevailing attitude toward him was apparently changed so that is was okay for people to do so, particularly high-profile defenders and regional admins.

---

My inflation-adjusted 2 cents, as it was

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

The situation is pretty odd to me, yes.

The TSP admin team is, at this point pretty much self-admittedly, nearly full of people who have a private server with Unibot (as well as their PM).

Imagine if it was breaking news that everyone on Council except for Jakker was hanging out with Lord Nuke in a private server.

Imagine the reaction to that! The boycotts! The outrage! Where is it?

How about the other bit, where their admin team is making accusations of "clear and ongoing harassment" (Tsu) and "targeted bullying" (Glen), but then only giving self-admittedly IC events and vague "people said" as proof? LD mentioned the mess (to understate massively) that was TNP/NSWF - hey, even that clusterfuck at least expressed an intent to share evidence (and also, for the record, banned Unibot from the event). Meanwhile, the TSP admin team over here is expressed repeated intent to not share further details or evidence with anyone from the region to the accused. How is this remotely acceptable? Why is the reaction here not the same or stronger? Look, I'm not fan of Escade and Tim, the latter especially, but dropping accusations like that and then outright saying that no one needs to see proof? Really?

This is simply unacceptable. Everyone who still has ties, or even just diplomacy without formal ties, with TSP should be having a reaction like they’d have there. This should be a final straw, and people should be demanding accountability, with isolation as the alternative.

Look at how Raiding has, very effectively I'd say, led the charge in following through on leadership/issue player -focused action against regions with unsavory leadership. Look how well it's worked when people have had the balls to say "this is unacceptable, and here's consequences," even when those consequences have come at a cost. Why is that not applied more in other areas? It works. Y'all have seen it work. Y'all have cheered it on and supported it as we cleaned up our shit. Where is it here?

Look, I get that there's a fair point of view that maybe a ban to some degree or other was deserved. But still, even staying out of the internal “who started it” squabbling, there’s two major objective issues with their admin team, accusations of harassment without even an intent to eventually share evidence, just a flat denial, and then close association with Unibot and defense thereof. There also little chance for internal recourse in reality, with 3/4 of the admin team involved (including 2/3 of the court system and the assembly chair) and their prime minister as well. Oh, and the only remaining admin/the delegate is on LOA for the month too, now.

That leaves the only option left: outside consequences. Folks need to apply the standards they've held before, even if it stings a little. And frankly, I've been disappointed to see how smoothly both of these things have gone over so far.

[Jar Wattinree]

Who is Lord Nuke?

EDIT: Question answered.

[Unibot III]

The TSP admin team is, at this point pretty much self-admittedly, nearly full of people who have a private server with Unibot (as well as their PM).

*NationStates is, at this point pretty much self-admittedly, nearly full of people who have a private server with Unibot.

You guys are making me blush with all this momentary relevance but it's hardly news to most of NationStates Gameplay that somebody has a private server with me, because most of you have a private server with me (including invaders). The joke of it all is, I'm not really an interesting contributor to many of these conversations. I've lost a lot of interest in Gameplay, I don't think it's the same game - and this recent issue with Tim/Escade is evidence of that for me.

NationStates used to be about ideas and politics, players organized around coherent spheres of interest. Nowadays it's a lot of gossipy, petty personalities and socialites who don't seem to be interested in committing to any real political activity - the rest are too indecisive to direct the political conversation.

There's very little left of the game to actually play. I think it's good that TSP is moving on from this recent episode with Tim and Escade, but I fear that it's a victory that's pyrrhic. Democracies used to be entangled in a larger international intrigue, they depended on it to drive their foreign policy; there's little of that nowadays, it's just personalities in a void. Facebook for political science undergraduates.

[RiderSyl]

<snip>

You're minimizing the fact that the TSP admin team has a private server with you, calling this a "Tim/Escade" problem while omitting your buddies' names, and bitching about how the game isn't like the golden days (when you weren't a pariah).

While that last bit isn't at all intriguing, what is intriguing are the first two items. It shows you're on the TSP clique's side. The members of the clique just happen to be the stalwarts of TSP. Since you're a man of self-interest, you're either on their side because you're trying to work your way back into TSP, or you essentially already have.

With the way TSP is determined to prove all its haters right, it wouldn't surprise me if you succeeded.

[The Church of Satan]

Since when did Souls' appeal become a Unibot crusade? Seriously, shouldn't it be about...legal justification (or lack thereof) of the proscription?

[Lord Dominator]

Since when did Souls' appeal become a Unibot crusade? Seriously, shouldn't it be about...legal justification (or lack thereof) of the proscription?

Well. First, we were discussing toxicity and infighting in TSP
Then the TSP admins banned Tim/Escade (for 8 months, allegedly)
Now we're talking about how the TSP admin team is shit in many ways

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Since when did Souls' appeal become a Unibot crusade? Seriously, shouldn't it be about...legal justification (or lack thereof) of the proscription?

It seems you've missed a few things, like Tim and Escade getting banned and accused of harassment without evidence, and the news breaking that most of the admin team has a server with unibot My ban and appeal is practically a sideshow now. You have a few pages of the thread to read, and also maybe this.

That noted, you're also welcome to go view their legal system refusing to let me or my counsel see any evidence that I tried to coup the region, after my counsel shot down everything they did actual pose against me with brutal efficiency. Seems, though, that the secret claims against me are backed by secret evidence that only the court gets to see. In other words, no, no one besides their admin team gets to see if there is really legal justification for my ban.

[The Church of Satan]

I'm aware of the Tim and Escade thing. Which I wanna say I don't like, especially regarding Escade. As for the so-called evidence they claim to have regarding your alleged crimes, anyone accused of a crime should be allowed to see said evidence so they can defend themselves and so it's clear that their accusers genuinely believe one has committed a crime.

Anyways, I feel like the Unibot thing is just being used as an excuse to say there's a conspiracy rather than looking at the lack of evidence (if the accused isn't allowed to see the evidence then in my opinion there is no evidence) and saying "if you won't prove I did something wrong then I haven't did something wrong." It's the right thing to do in my opinion.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I'm aware of the Tim and Escade thing. Which I wanna say I don't like, especially regarding Escade. As for the so-called evidence they claim to have regarding your alleged crimes, anyone accused of a crime should be allowed to see said evidence so they can defend themselves and so it's clear that their accusers genuinely believe one has committed a crime.

Anyways, I feel like the Unibot thing is just being used as an excuse to say there's a conspiracy rather than looking at the lack of evidence (if the accused isn't allowed to see the evidence then in my opinion there is no evidence) and saying "if you won't prove I did something wrong then I haven't did something wrong." It's the right thing to do in my opinion.

I'd say they're being raised as two separate but both important things, not as one thing/some conspiracy. We're just saying that *either one of these* should be a major issue, and they're both happening, and it's important not to forget one while focusing on the other.

Edit: for that matter, I don't honestly believe that my own case should be front and center at present, as it's generally more of a GP thing, while these two major OOC issues have taken center stage. I say generally because I *was* accused of "blackmail" at one point there but that at least got somewhat walked back quietly and without much apology to anyone involved. But in the end, them refusing to give any evidence that I tried to coup or even to specify details like "when," etc, while eerily parallel, is a far lesser issue than refusing to provide proof for claims of *harassment.*

[The Church of Satan]

Clearly they're both big issues but I feel as though big issues like that are best taken care of by being focused on one at a time so they can be taken care of at the best of one's ability. Otherwise one's attention is divided and the persons involved in remedying them are distracted. Especially with TSPs legal system at work. As I understand it it's been a mess for several years. Definitely longer than I've been in NS.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Clearly they're both big issues but I feel as though big issues like that are best taken care of by being focused on one at a time so they can be taken care of at the best of one's ability. Otherwise one's attention is divided and the persons involved in remedying them are distracted. Especially with TSPs legal system at work. As I understand it it's been a mess for several years. Definitely longer than I've been in NS.

I disagree, and think it's silly to ignore one major issue just because there's also another few major issues. I think we're competent enough to address two things in parallel. I'd be more worried about "distractions" coming from the fact that 2/3 of their "legal system" is personally involved in these issues.

Nor does the region having been a mess of serious issues give any additional reason why TSP should be getting a break here. Rather, I'd say it contributes in favor of saying "until you cut the bullshit, we cut you out."

But that's just my two cents.

[The Church of Satan]

I do agree that they shouldn't get a break. I've always been an avid believer in accountability. A fair share of them really should recuse themselves because there's a clear and unavoidable conflict of interest. I can say from experience that any judicial official worth their salt would do so.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I do agree that they shouldn't get a break. I've always been an avid believer in accountability. A fair share of them really should recuse themselves because there's a clear and unavoidable conflict of interest. I can say from experience that any judicial official worth their salt would do so.

Trusting their legal system to fix any aspect of this is probably folly, given my case as an example, as well as the COI's, but I do think Tim and Escade should make a fuss out of it on their end anyways, if just to drag out a public show of how ridiculous not giving proof for the strong accusations against them is. That said, even if they do actually get their bans reversed after a long legal battle, I dare say it wouldn't be enough without consequences beyond that.

I don't think the courts are the answer at all re:Unibot's ties to their team, though.