Embassy of the South Pacific

[Belschaft]

You mean like the absolute sham of a hearing you're giving Souls, where you're refusing to let Defense Counsel see the evidence and haven't actually informed the accused what specifically he's being accused of? Given that the current situation with the Admin Ban is highlighted by a refusal to inform the accused what they're actually being accused of, and a refusal to distribute the evidence, I don't have much faith in TSP's joke of a kangaroo court to do any better than its joke of an Administrative Team. If you want to claim that you can give fair hearings, why don't y'all step it up and start demonstrating that standard in the current case instead of making false guarantees you've been failing to follow through on.

People are welcome to continue pre-judging the result of Souls appeal before Kris and myself issue a ruling; that is entirely their right. In the meantime we will continue to meticulously follow TSP’s laws in conducting the matter, which - whether or not people like it - include the submission of evidence of a classified nature via an in camera procedure.

I make no comment on the outcome of the matter or the current nature of deliberations, but the assumption that Kris and myself are anything less than independent is frankly disappointing. I’ve spent years arguing against vague and arbitrary “security designations” in TSP and the idea that I would now uncritically accept them is rather annoying. If the Court is not satisfied that the evidence presented by the Cabinet substantiates the proscription it will rule accordingly.

>>Tim and Escade have made clear the reasons why they think Kris and Glen are biased in this case
>>Third, non-admin member of the court gives opinion that Tim and Escade were absolutely in the wrong and deserved their ban
>>"I can certainly guarantee them a fair hearing."

So who's going to give the fair hearing once all three justices recuse themselves?

If Tim and Escade wish to move from the court of public opinion to TSP’s actual court then they are welcome to do so; as someone completely uninvolved in the administrative action taken, I have no conflict of interest on this. If they disagree with that and wish to seek my refusal they can also pursue that. I have neither seen nor have any knowledge of disputes, arguments or behaviour that may have occurred in private - as I stated - and can comment only on what occurred in public settings. From what I have observed Tim and Escade were the worst perpetrators, but neither Glen or Roavin were innocent in everything that occurred - as I stated.

As everyone else seems to have an opinion on TSP right now, regardless of their level of involvement or information, I felt inclined to share my own - and make clear that if Tim and Escade have evidence to support the allegations they are making against TSP’s admin team they can and should submit it in the appropriate venue. The idea that TSP’s admin team is a law unto itself is simply not the case; it’s not regulated as part of our government, but it is entirely possible for admin to break TSP’s laws and to do so via their position as an admin. They are very much subject to the criminal code and the Court in relation to that.

[Escade]

Conveniently, we were asked to apologize without seeing any evidence or even what the issues were. When we then both made a public apology in the Discord lounge, a general one for being part of the infighting since we have no idea what we are being accused of beyond "toxicity", the same clique that has wanted to see us no longer have any access to power derided our apology repeatedly and found new angles of attack. My attempts to make peace were mocked with "don't throw peace quotes around."

Finally, we have only received two formal warnings of any kind. One - the 48 hour Discord ban - which was to keep the four major fighters and a bystander (Glenn-Rhodes, Roavin, Tim, Ian and myself) from arguing with each other. Since then Roavin has pinged me to respond to his questions about the MoNC and even chose to inform the public that I was chatting away in NSGP instead of responding to his aggressive questioning. I have avoided engaging in his rhetoric because of the 48 hour ban which was specifically stated to keep four players from talking to each other. Where is admin on dealing with that? Oh right Roavin is admin so he is above the law. He has also pinged Tim in the same way and baited us repeatedly. Where is admin being held accountable for the same exact actions?

Then, the only official and formal warning came from Tsunamy last Thursday. Tim and I received the same exact message - with no differentiation between either of us. We are not the same players and don't even have a similar style of play. Why are we being treated as one entity or unit when we aren't? Tim chose to support North Prarie during the last election and I chose to eventually support and defend Islands (especially from attacks from other players). We are different players with different actions. Why are we lumped together? Where are the specifics for each player?

Conveniently, as soon as I started pointing out how the same alleged toxic actions were undertaken by admin against me on the same date as well as up to a year ago on a regular basis against other players - I was cut off access from Discord and the forums. So Belschaft asking us to file a court case on a forum we can't access seems ridiculous. This is the message I get when I try to access the forums which is perfect for this situation and its insanity:


The burden of proof does not lie on us to prove our innocence. In fact it lies on admin to prove that this alleged toxicity is not part and parcel of TSP's DNA for the past several years and that they themselves have not actually made this behavior the norm. They need to prove that they took appropriate official admin actions as a series of steps and attempted to communicate with both me and Tim in an official capacity. Moderation comes in a series of steps and addresses specific behaviors and is official (not random posts in random places often already forming a mob mentality). Kris is not impartial in this as he has a personal region with Farengeto and is a close friend of his. That triumvirate (Glenn, Kris, and Faregento) are the same one pointed out in Sopo's statement. They look out for one another. After all I did publicly ask about a false accusation that Farengeto made against me and the admin Kris ignored it or tried to explain it away. That's why there is no impartiality here or expectation of justice.

Admin cannot prove that TSP does not have a history of such behavior engaged in by particular players, as a cursory scan of the Legislator Lounge showed me and which I started sharing publicly until summarily banned. They also refuse to show any evidence because it would also show that the fights between players were instigated on both sides and that the alleged "victims" have not been innocent in this. I also do not know how Tim trying to discuss how Roavin, Glenn, Kris, and Farengeto have a private server with Unibot is "toxic." It's information that impacts the region when all the admin, except one, and the Prime Minister hang out with Unibot. It's also not surprising that Unibot can post in this thread with more information about what is going on behind the scenes then TSPers themselves.

Glen-Rhodes identified the MoNC as the first "warning" even though it was a political IC action and cannot be confused with administration or administrative actions. An administrative action, as Tsu told me, is an official statement from the team that is sent as a PM over the forums. DMs are not considered official and even PMs have to be stated as official (since I was asked to confirm my official response). We have only received one such administrative action notice on the forums. In addition, Roavin has repeatedly (including Sunday night before the ban) stated in the Legislator Lounge that the MoNC was a completely IC action and that he has no personal issues with either of us (nor does he ever state he is acting as an admin since that would contradict him acting as PM - going back to our charter and how admin should be apolitical). During the MoNC (and I have DMs to prove this) Glenn told me that Roavin's main issues were with Tim and not me, I was caught in the crossfire, etc, etc. How I responded *hint hint* would define how things moved forward.

The timing of the 8 month ban, after a 48 hour ban, and no action against admin for their "1001 cuts" is preposterous. It is politically motivated (as the specific time coincides with election cycles) and in particular coincides with new ministers in the cabinet who are willing to work with me and Tim instead of trying to eliminate us from the region.

I had suggested publicly that the community work on standards that are fair and just to all and was outright told no publicly by admin. You don't get to pick and choose who you punish - that isn't democratic. Oh wait, that's exactly what happened.

[Evil Wolf]

In the meantime we will continue to meticulously follow TSP’s laws in conducting the matter, which - whether or not people like it - include the submission of evidence of a classified nature via an in camera procedure.

Except there is nothing at all "classified" about the evidence except that Glen classified it as such. It's out there, people have seen it, people know what it says, it's not secret.

This is like when the US military banned its service members from reading Der Spiegel because it was publishing material from WikiLeaks that was still, technically, listed as classified and the member reading the article might not have the proper clearance to read what is now public knowledge.

Everybody has seen your "secret" evidence, Belschaft. To exclude it's release in the trial can only serve the purpose of placing an unfair burden on the defendant's ability to defend themselves against the accusations they face. You either throw it out, or make it public.

An extremely transparent and undemocratic ploy to cheat in a trial.

[Jar Wattinree]

An extremely transparent and undemocratic ploy to cheat in a trial.

This is what it sounds like to me.

[Lord Dominator]

You know, one thing strikes me about Escade's post, and that's the image. Specifically, the part where it says 'Ban will be lifted: Unknown,' which is in direct contradiction with the stated 8 months.
Hmm

[Ambrella]

I have been running the Transitional Government out of my basement the past two years if anyone is finding renewed interest.

[Tim Stark]

I find the irony of Tsunamy claiming that Escade and I violated Rule 8 quite loud. This is Rule 8:

8. Do not make false accusations in order to tarnish the reputations of other people. If you make an accusation, it is your responsibility to provide sufficient proof.

The Administrative Team have accused Escade and I of, and I quote, "frequent targeted attacks, personal attacks, harassment, and false accusations of OOC misconduct". By the same very rule that Tsunamy is raising high now, the Administrative Team has a responsibility to provide sufficient proof of the allegations they are leveraging against us. I'm not sure how they can claim to have any sort of integrity when they ignore communications, lie about occurrences, don't apply their own rules to themselves, and won't even tell the people they're banning what specifically they're being banned for. What a shitshow.

[Jar Wattinree]

I find the irony of Tsunamy claiming that Escade and I violated Rule 8 quite loud. This is Rule 8:

8. Do not make false accusations in order to tarnish the reputations of other people. If you make an accusation, it is your responsibility to provide sufficient proof.

The Administrative Team have accused Escade and I of, and I quote, "frequent targeted attacks, personal attacks, harassment, and false accusations of OOC misconduct". By the same very rule that Tsunamy is raising high now, the Administrative Team has a responsibility to provide sufficient proof of the allegations they are leveraging against us. I'm not sure how they can claim to have any sort of integrity when they ignore communications, lie about occurrences, don't apply their own rules to themselves, and won't even tell the people they're banning what specifically they're being banned for. What a shitshow.

"I am the law" seems to apply here.

[Belschaft]

In the meantime we will continue to meticulously follow TSP’s laws in conducting the matter, which - whether or not people like it - include the submission of evidence of a classified nature via an in camera procedure.

Except there is nothing at all "classified" about the evidence except that Glen classified it as such. It's out there, people have seen it, people know what it says, it's not secret.

This is like when the US military banned its service members from reading Der Spiegel because it was publishing material from WikiLeaks that was still, technically, listed as classified and the member reading the article might not have the proper clearance to read what is now public knowledge.

Everybody has seen your "secret" evidence, Belschaft. To exclude it's release in the trial can only serve the purpose of placing an unfair burden on the defendant's ability to defend themselves against the accusations they face. You either throw it out, or make it public.

An extremely transparent and undemocratic ploy to cheat in a trial.

Please feel free to let me know what you think it is. If your assertion is correct and it is in public circulation that would certainly effect the Courts opinion.

[Aclion]

Well this is a damned hogpile isn't it.

[King HEM]

I really want to approach this whole situation from an administrative point of view.

Something that Europeia's and other administrative teams have tirelessly tried to do is work to separate the IC bans (Persona-Non Gratas, Proscription Lists etc.) from admin team-related bans dealing with real-life issues (harassment, blackmail, etc.). If nothing else, this ban proves how woefully antiquated the South Pacific is in this regard.

And there's a real danger there. Because as an admin from another region, there may be a day when I have to ban someone with basically no explanation because of real life issues involved. I need people to be able to trust that what I did was ethical. I need people to trust administrators and give them the benefit of the doubt, rather than be constantly jaded and on the lookout for IC politics seeping into what should be OOC decisions.

The justifications that the South Pacific have posted in a followup post on their forum are almost virtually all IC offenses. They are instances of people getting perhaps a bit carried away in public, IC debates. That is not something administrators should be acting on. This is also a big problem for me, because I have folks coming to me (as an admin) to take action against people who have played a tough game of politics in-game, but haven't actually done anything worthy of suspending the political game of NS and kicking someone out. This makes my job enforcing that line even harder!! This whole thing seems so blatantly IC it's hard to understand how we got here. For instance, in a followup post on the initial ban thread, Tsu posted a series of harsh IC debates as a justification for the ban. GR suggested that a vote of no confidence served as an initial warning to the parties. This is B-A-D.

I don't doubt the good intentions of the South Pacific admins, many of whom I have known for some time. But I want to reiterate: the system that is operating in TSP is antiquated, and is harmful to this game.

Someone who has a particularly long memory may recall that when I was in TSP I fought for more oversight over the administrative team from the RP/IC government. But that position (1) was in response to overzealous admins who were banning for IC offenses; (2) was before the plague of NS harassment issues was obvious to the majority of us. Administrative teams should be independent of IC review, deal only with OOC offenses, and trusted. I am very bothered with what has happened here.

I understand that part of Tim's ban was allegedly spreading rumors of someone else committing OOC misdeeds. I cannot speak to that. But there is nothing that has presented publicly that disavows the notion that this punishment was a reaction to IC events, indeed everything that has been posted actually affirms that.

I urge The South Pacific to very closely look at their administrative system.

[KhanterWinters]

I was about... to avoid this thread, (or GP at all since most of time grammar, and people ignores me )
BUT, this has like a misterious magnet to me, that attracts me to read all the drama made by the admin group of TSP... and all the people making their comments, so, I will took a seat, and of course, We are going to Celebrate England with TSP (Thread Title, but all this is a celebration of how TSP admins are doing so good (?)), so I will share my tiny salt shacker to drop a bit too, so lets begin:

And to begin, there is something in TSP that triggers me a lot, and is the fact that people does not know how to follow rules, if you are going to make rules, be sure that you cover all the flanks, so you will be protected, banning people, because they go against your ideals, or they discover that you are a corrupt, well... TSP is US?

Other Triggering thing, is the Initialism thing in TSP WFE <.<

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An initialism is a word made from the first letters of each word in a phrase. Unlike acronyms, initialisms cannot be spoken as words: they are spoken letter by letter.

NO, Even if it looks "beauty" and better written SWAN, is not correct, it is killing the basic rule of An initialism.

BUT

Keep going, I want to keep reading all this and all the loop holes of TSP Legislation.

[Jar Wattinree]

Other Triggering thing, is the Initialism thing in TSP WFE <.<

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An initialism is a word made from the first letters of each word in a phrase. Unlike acronyms, initialisms cannot be spoken as words: they are spoken letter by letter.

NO, Even if it looks "beauty" and better written SWAN, is not correct, it is killing the basic rule of An initialism.

BUT

Keep going, I want to keep reading all this and all the loop holes of TSP Legislation.

Some NASA spacecraft and satellites have funky names to make the acronym work, so there's precedent for this.

[KhanterWinters]

-snip-

Some NASA spacecraft and satellites have funky names to make the acronym work, so there's precedent for this.

Comparing NASA with TSP... is like Comparing Logic with TSP Legislation <.< Just saying.

[Jar Wattinree]

Some NASA spacecraft and satellites have funky names to make the acronym work, so there's precedent for this.

Comparing NASA with TSP... is like Comparing Logic with TSP Legislation <.< Just saying.

Was the only example I could think of that made sense. And lel.

[Glen-Rhodes]

GR suggested that a vote of no confidence served as an initial warning to the parties. This is B-A-D.

I’m not going to comment any further outside of official channels. But this is an egregious misreading.

No I didn’t say Roavin’s MONC was an official warning. I said “warning.” In scare quotes. I prefaced that it wasn’t an official warning nor given by any admins. Then said it was a fundamentally IC political act, but was an in-depth description of where behavioral problem started. Please do not do the time honored NSGP thing where my words are misinterpreted and misprinted for maximum negative connotation, of you actually do intend on engaging in a level-headed discussion between admins. The motion of no confidence is where the behavioral problems went from government-only private channels and out into the public, then multiplied by 100. Everybody in TSP knows this history, and everybody knows that the motion of no confidence was the first time Escade and Tim were called out publicly and asked to stop. That’s why I called it a “warning,” again in scare quotes.

[Consular]

Foreign subjects of proscriptions don’t have the right to a fair trial, so it indeed would be farcical to portray a judicial review that way.

I can certainly guarantee them a fair hearing.

Ummm

[Aramanchovia]

This was fun to read through. Such a shame to see what has been happening, even if it is not at all unsurprising.

I am glad I gave up on the TSP forums a few years back, as it seems it's just as toxic there now as it was back then (no real surprise based on having the same people running things, and them probably having more control now than back then). Never been a fan of Discord either, and I am not at all surprised there has been plenty of harassment issues etc there.

It does kind of suck that the whole of TSP gets brought down by these off site areas, as there are plenty of decent people in the region. Most don't seem to last long once they get into the political side of the region though, which is a shame.

This just reinforces why I'll just stick to the site here, where there's clear rules fairly enforced by unbiased individuals. (I'm not talking about the RP rules on the RMB, more the site rules). Much less stressful.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I don't know why the main antagonists and many of their supporters don't just go their separate ways and find other regions. I really don't.

Seriously, what is TSP doing for you? Is it really "home" at this point, or are you just clinging to the familiarity? It bothers me to see people like Escade, Tim, Roavin, and several others wasting their time and energy on these continual flame wars when they have so much more to offer. Why not go your separate ways and find regions that will value your unique contributions, that will have 150% less drama, and where you won't have to be around each other? There are both GCRs and UCRs that would better suit you. Leave TSP to people like Glen-Rhodes and Belschaft (and several others) who don't have anything more to offer than the shady, sketchy drama that has become the hallmark of TSP. The rest of you are better than that. Don't get bogged down in the toxic culture people like them have created when you could actually be enjoying this game elsewhere. Just leave TSP, guys. It's not that hard. People do it a lot.

[Kurnugia]

I don't know why the main antagonists and many of their supporters don't just go their separate ways and find other regions. I really don't.

Seriously, what is TSP doing for you? Is it really "home" at this point, or are you just clinging to the familiarity? It bothers me to see people like Escade, Tim, Roavin, and several others wasting their time and energy on these continual flame wars when they have so much more to offer. Why not go your separate ways and find regions that will value your unique contributions, that will have 150% less drama, and where you won't have to be around each other? There are both GCRs and UCRs that would better suit you. Leave TSP to people like Glen-Rhodes and Belschaft (and several others) who don't have anything more to offer than the shady, sketchy drama that has become the hallmark of TSP. The rest of you are better than that. Don't get bogged down in the toxic culture people like them have created when you could actually be enjoying this game elsewhere. Just leave TSP, guys. It's not that hard. People do it a lot.

^This. Regions are just this: Communities and are you really want to cling on to a community that makes a pariah out of you for seemingly no reason?

[The Sanada Clan]

Imagine getting worked up over NS.

Wheres that popcorn bag at?

[Kurnugia]

Imagine getting worked up over NS.

Wheres that popcorn bag at?

Currently in the fire. The heat is very hot. Ideal to pop the corn

[Lord Dominator]

Imagine getting worked up over NS.

Wheres that popcorn bag at?

Currently in the fire. The heat is very hot. Ideal to pop the corn

It just might come out smelling like garbage

[Consular]

Imagine getting worked up over NS.

Wheres that popcorn bag at?

That's a kinda unfair attitude. Some people are very invested in this game and it's not entirely unreasonable that they get upset when they feel screwed over.

[Big Bad Badger]

Whatever happened to the tl;dr?