Embassy of the South Pacific

[RiderSyl]

TWP & TEP: Our proscriptions were bad.
TSP: Hold my Margarita.

[McManniaa]

Pretty sure those south pacific kids are too young to be drinking margaritas Syl, Im afraid im gonna have to report you to the police for endangering a minor

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Pretty sure those south pacific kids are too young to be drinking margaritas Syl, Im afraid im gonna have to report you to the police for endangering a minor

Hey, at least they proscribed you and your whole region for stuff they can prove. I just got a load of heresy that's irrelevant to their own laws! If they're going to proscribe me, they better goddamn do it right and not just spew slander. >.>

[RiderSyl]

At this rate, Souls, you'll get a Condemnation for a slew of actions you've never committed.

Also, I can imagine how this went in TSP. "Souls annoys us. What do?" "Come up with some reasons to proscribe him. Nobody will care." "Can do!"

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

At this rate, Souls, you'll get a Condemnation for a slew of actions you've never committed.

Also, I can imagine how this went in TSP. "Souls annoys us. What do?" "Come up with some reasons to proscribe him. Nobody will care." "Can do!"

Sadly, I do not see "is annoying" or even "does not like us" in the Proscription Act. It seems to require stuffy stuff like "actively attempting to overthrow the government," "manipulate elections," "commit coordinated espionage," "sabotage operations outside of normal GP," or "acting as an agent of someone who does those things."

---

If I can add one thing to my earlier wall -

(2) A proscription must be issued publicly, and be accompanied with a report detailing the hostile acts.

The listed items are at best a piss-poor "report" providing very little detail or evidence of the purported hostile acts.

[McManniaa]

If they were accurate they would have noticed that I am not in charge of, nor am I the founder of, the ragerian imperium. Its not that hard to do basic research guys.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

If this is not the correct forum for such an appeal, please hand hold me through the proper forum for such an appeal as described in your laws, preferably in a way that doesn’t involve giving you my IP.

[Drop Your Pants]

Pretty sure those south pacific kids are too young to be drinking margaritas Syl, Im afraid im gonna have to report you to the police for endangering a minor

If your only retort is to call other players 'kids' then possibly you need to review how you interact with others.

[McManniaa]

Pretty sure those south pacific kids are too young to be drinking margaritas Syl, Im afraid im gonna have to report you to the police for endangering a minor

If your only retort is to call other players 'kids' then possibly you need to review how you interact with others.

not a retort, most of the people who play this game are, at least from what ive gathered, below the US legal drinking age of 21. Also, is it just a tough hypocritical for a guy called "drop your pants" to be calling other people out on their use of terminology?

[Lord Dominator]

Hey, I hear you all layer up some juicy proscriptions.
I'm sure those of us who can't be arsed (I can) to spend a minute or two on your forums would love to hear about them here

Thanks for the free bumpb, but I imagine you can use your noggin to find better ways to reach out to our FA minister about embassy updates

I don't care about an embassy update, I was asking that someone from TSP copy-paste the thing here

[Tim Stark]

not a retort, most of the people who play this game are, at least from what ive gathered, below the US legal drinking age of 21. Also, is it just a tough hypocritical for a guy called "drop your pants" to be calling other people out on their use of terminology?

I think it's rather naive to be acting as if the US drinking age is one that is a. widely followed, b. overly enforced, and c. makes any iota of sense. Thanks for caring though!

If your only retort is to call other players 'kids' then possibly you need to review how you interact with others.

Damn, am I going to have to rebrand out of calling people kiddo?

[Evil Wolf]

Evil Wolf of Lone Wolves United (criteria 1, 5)
Pattern of GCR subversion and invasion dating back a decade
Couped and griefed Lazarus

*Checks to see if TSP still has a treaty with The Pacific*

Yup, still in place. If that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

Let's be honest, this Proscription is just because Glen is still mad that I almost beat him in an election when I was just a newcomer citizen to TSP.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I don't see anything particularly controversial about the South Pacific's proscriptions, and I say that as someone who:

a) doesn't at all like TSP;
b) is banned for treason from TSP;
c) doesn't have particular problems with Souls, Evil Wolf, McMannia, or HYDRA/TRI.

When I say I don't see anything particularly controversial, what I mean is that it's clear that everyone proscribed is in fact an enemy of TSP, and it only makes sense for TSP to protect itself from its enemies. What I don't mean is that it's necessarily legal. It doesn't look like Souls meets the criteria for hostility established by the Proscription Act, at least not based on the charges the Cabinet has presented.

Whether the legality matters or not is really up to TSP's community, but it wouldn't matter to me and it never has. If the laws in Osiris told me I couldn't do something to protect Osiris from threats, I generally would just ignore those laws and do it anyway. So it would be hypocritical for me to criticize TSP for doing what I've done in the past and would do again if necessary, and it's hypocritical for many of the people criticizing TSP to do so when they couldn't care less about democracy, the rule of law, judicial review, or any of the other relevant gameplay factors. The truth is that TSP is protecting itself from people who actually are (in-character) threats, which is something each of the people being proscribed and many of those criticizing from the peanut gallery would also do for their own regions. It's only controversial to you because you don't like TSP and want to use its own laws as weapons against it. Fair enough and carry on, but let's not pretend it's anything more than that. TSP hasn't done anything outrageous or anything most of us wouldn't do for our own regions.

[Evil Wolf]

Oh, I didn't even notice this gem until now.

Last Summer, HYDRA launched a direct attack on TSP, attempting to displace Delegate Drugged Monkeys in order to distract the South Pacific from its efforts in fighting against the HYDRA-backed coup of Lazarus

I was rolling.

TSP rewrites history harder than Unibot does.

[Scottiesland]

Oh, I didn't even notice this gem until now.

Last Summer, HYDRA launched a direct attack on TSP, attempting to displace Delegate Drugged Monkeys in order to distract the South Pacific from its efforts in fighting against the HYDRA-backed coup of Lazarus

I was rolling.

TSP rewrites history harder than Unibot does.

I guess what they mean is at the time of Funk taking the WAD HYDRA did bring pilers in... I think at least. I wasn't around for that bit if I remember right.

[McManniaa]

Oh, I didn't even notice this gem until now.



I was rolling.

TSP rewrites history harder than Unibot does.

I guess what they mean is at the time of Funk taking the WAD HYDRA did bring pilers in... I think at least. I wasn't around for that bit if I remember right.

Well then they need to learn how to properly phrase things better, because the way they currently have it worded it makes it sounds like we were the coup instigator, when in fact it was backed by a multitude of regions, many of which played a bigger role than us, and instigated by another region entirely. Hydra played a minor role due to its at the time diminished capacity. But TSP worded this poorly written and poorly researched document like we were the instigating party. If you're gonna credit us for something, make sure its something we actually did.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I don't see anything particularly controversial about the South Pacific's proscriptions, and I say that as someone who:

a) doesn't at all like TSP;
b) is banned for treason from TSP;
c) doesn't have particular problems with Souls, Evil Wolf, McMannia, or HYDRA/TRI.

When I say I don't see anything particularly controversial, what I mean is that it's clear that everyone proscribed is in fact an enemy of TSP, and it only makes sense for TSP to protect itself from its enemies. What I don't mean is that it's necessarily legal. It doesn't look like Souls meets the criteria for hostility established by the Proscription Act, at least not based on the charges the Cabinet has presented.

Whether the legality matters or not is really up to TSP's community, but it wouldn't matter to me and it never has. If the laws in Osiris told me I couldn't do something to protect Osiris from threats, I generally would just ignore those laws and do it anyway. So it would be hypocritical for me to criticize TSP for doing what I've done in the past and would do again if necessary, and it's hypocritical for many of the people criticizing TSP to do so when they couldn't care less about democracy, the rule of law, judicial review, or any of the other relevant gameplay factors. The truth is that TSP is protecting itself from people who actually are (in-character) threats, which is something each of the people being proscribed and many of those criticizing from the peanut gallery would also do for their own regions. It's only controversial to you because you don't like TSP and want to use its own laws as weapons against it. Fair enough and carry on, but let's not pretend it's anything more than that. TSP hasn't done anything outrageous or anything most of us wouldn't do for our own regions.

Controversial in choices of subject, perhaps not. Controversial in legality, certainly.

While we all know you've got a very "I do what I want" attitude, TSP loves to describe itself as "one of the oldest democracies in the game," and to upsell it's charter, laws, assembly, and so forth. With this image in mind, I imagine it should be imperative for TSP to follow the letter of the laws it has established. It's a region's choice to bind itself by formalized laws, rather than ruling off the cuff, and my personal preference for the latter does not prevent me from criticizing TSP for not holding to the former.

It's also "controversial to me" because several of the claims made are particularly slanderous and baseless, Cormac, in addition to not being cause for proscription even at face value.

The facts of the matter are, 4/5 of the claims made against me do not even accuse me of requisite hostile acts for proscription. They do not claim I was "actively involved or complicit in an attempt, successful or otherwise, to illegally overthrow the legitimate government of The South Pacific or its allies and partners," they do not claim I have "coordinated to exploit, manipulate, or unduly influence elections or votes in The South Pacific, or its allies and partners," they hardly claim that I have attempted "to sabotage military operations of The South Pacific, outside of normal raiding and defending dynamics," and while there might be a wishy washy argument for 1.5 of the Proscription act based on my general attitude, I'd argue there that to be "an agent acting on behalf of a foreign region or organization to the detriment of The South Pacific," I'd have to be actually acting to the detriment of TSP, not just sending it ill wishes. The final claim does actually accuse me of "engag[ing] in coordinated espionage against The South Pacific," but fails to provide "a report detailing the hostile acts," instead leaving such claims as entirely heresy.

While I'll gladly affirm that I'm no particular fan of several of the leading figures in TSP, including one who's administrative status has made him effectively inseparable from the current system of government, I'll note that I bear the citizenship at large no particular ill will, and that the Proscription Act does not allow proscription based on speech alone - it requires, line after line, active attempts and/or coordination. I am not actively attempting or coordinating to do any of these things, nor do I plan in the immediate future to do so.

The Proscription act also explicitly gives me, as an "Individual subject to a proscription," the right to challenge the "determination of hostility," with "Acts of Hostility" being defined by aforementioned requirements of, you know, actual acts. I intend to exercise that right.

[North Prarie]

Oooh, drama!
I'll just say that I fully support this proscription, and if you were a TSP citizen looking through our eyes you would too. What's so bad with proscribing people who are a proven threat to our ideology?
(This is a rhetorical question.)

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Oooh, drama!
I'll just say that I fully support this proscription, and if you were a TSP citizen looking through our eyes you would too. What's so bad with proscribing people who are a proven threat to our ideology?
(This is a rhetorical question.)

If I were a TSP citizen, I'd want the proper laws and processes to be upheld in any official action.

[The Tri State Area and Maine]

Oooh, drama!
I'll just say that I fully support this proscription, and if you were a TSP citizen looking through our eyes you would too. What's so bad with proscribing people who are a proven threat to our ideology?
(This is a rhetorical question.)

How is EWS a threat to TSP's ideology?

[Sopporion]

Oooh, drama!
I'll just say that I fully support this proscription, and if you were a TSP citizen looking through our eyes you would too. What's so bad with proscribing people who are a proven threat to our ideology?
(This is a rhetorical question.)

How is EWS a threat to TSP's ideology?

He might accidentally raid all of their democracy.

[Vulturret]

I’d like to take a moment, as did General Souls to respond to some of the points listed in the proscription of Admiral McMannia Whitehall, HYDRA and the Ragerian Imperium by the South Pacific. This will be done in excruciating detail, because I believe Legislators of the South Pacific, as well as Gameplay members at large deserve to have an accurate analysis of what is happening. It will also probably be apparent that I am frankly disgusted, not with the proscription (which I consider an honor to our Armada and its intelligence work), but with the way the Prime Minister and his government have handled this situation, which suggests sheer incompetence in the leadership of a Game-Created Region. I want to make it clear that the views expressed in this post are my own, and do not reflect the specific view of any region or organization I may be a part of, unless that is specifically mentioned on a point.

I’m going to be carefully reviewing both the proscription of McMannia Whitehall and the proscription of The Ragerian Imperium in general. Let’s start by reviewing the proscription of Admiral McMannia Whitehall.

Founder of HYDRA and TRI

This is a prime example of the sheer incompetence and lack of research on display in the Proscription statement by the Prime Minister and Cabinet. That statement is an utter lie. I recognize that some of the evidence used against the individuals and organizations in the proscription is at least half-true (often twisted for the Prime Minister's benefit), but nothing could be further from the truth than that sentence of Farengeto's post.

Allow me to make something abundantly clear for those in The South Pacific's leadership who couldn't be bothered to find this out for themselves: Admiral McMannia does not have access to the Founder nation of the Ragerian Imperium. If you bothered to learn your shit before making this statement, you'd realize that I, Vulturret, am the Emperor of the Ragerian Imperium. This can be found in a variety of means including, but not limited to: my forum signatures across various NS forums and the one this post is on, the Imperium's World Factbook Entry, or the forum header of the Imperium's off-site forums. Thusly, because I am Emperor I am the founder of the Imperium. The Constitution of Rageria could not be clearer: "The Emperor must be the Founder of the on-site region." This on-site region is legally defined in the Appendix, as "http://www.nationstates.net/region-the_ragerian_imperium/." As if it couldn't be clearer, McMannia isn't the founder. If he was, he would be in clear violation of Ragerian law.

The above explanation isn't a point in itself, but coupled with various other points later in the post demonstrates a clear lack of willingness by TSP's cabinet to research an action before they take it. If I was Legislator, I would be very concerned about that.

Mastermind of all hostilities towards TSP emanating from HYDRA and TRI, and does not fear using any and all resources of those regions for such purposes.

This is another complete fabrication of the truth. I may be willing to cut you some slack on this one because you don't have the same limitless access to HYDRA and TRI command forums and chats that I enjoy, but I assume that from actions you claim occurred, you'd be able to figure out that McMannia doesn't lead everything or force our troops to do anything. Admiral McMannia has done limitless incredible work for both HYDRA and TRI, and has come up with numerous awesome ideas for our intelligence and counter-intelligence missions pertaining to the South Pacific and other regions, but to suggest that he is the "mastermind of all hostilities" is laughable.

The Ragerian Armada and HYDRA (at the time it existed) were never run unilaterally, nor are currently run in that manner. There has never (to my knowledge, which includes significant research of HYDRA command chats dating back several years) a single mastermind of anything. Any and all actions, whether they be a simple banjection or these grand-scale intelligence operations are (and were) never made without first consulting the rest (or at least another member of) the Imperial War Command (or the Directorate, at the time, Heads in the case of the DoT). The choice of the word "mastermind" was undoubtedly poor and false. Now, not going to lie, Admiral McMannia has come up with a fair portion of the ideas of our intelligence operations, but to suggest that "all" of them were his idea or on his orders is, again, extremely false. Again, orders are given with bilateral consensus. As for ideas, many members of the Directorate and the Imperial War Command have had brilliant ideas related to intelligence missions and in general. Who knows? Maybe even I have a good idea once or twice in a blue moon.

Moving on, we should address your claims that [he/us] "does not [/do not] fear using any and all resources of those regions for such purposes." This part, unlike the first two I addressed is half-true. HYDRA no longer has resources, as all of them have been transferred to The Ragerian Armada. McMannia doesn't have un-restricted access to all resources of the Imperium, such as our founder nation (as I mentioned), server, admin panel, etc. You're not recognizing the diferrence between the main region and the Armada. I will say McMannia, in his capacity as a member of The Imperial War Command, does have un-restricted access to military resources, including but not limited to: piling orders, telegram stamps, sleeper lists, intelligence info and the like.

To address the second part of your point, not only is McMannia and the entire War Command not afraid to use our resources on The South Pacific should it be necessary, we are prepared to use our resources on any hostile region for any reason. This isn't something I speak about lightly, we don't wish to have to unleash fury on any region or organization. Provocation, however, does (and in the case of the South Pacific has) occur, and that is one reason why missions against an enemy could occur. Said missions could also occur to defend our security, support and defend our allies, and the like. However, such offensive actions are utilized with caution, we're not stupid and recognize the chances of retaliation for specific actions we may be considering taking. To sum it up, we only take offensive actions against enemies, people, regions, or organizations who engage in unwarranted provocation, to defend our own security, or to protect our allies.

Now, moving onto TRI's proscription.

Last summer, HYDRA launched a direct attack on TSP in order to distract the South Pacific from its efforts in fighting against the HYDRA-backed coup of Lazarus

I wasn't present on the operation in question (nor was I on NS at the time), but the operation was merely defensive, obviously. The logic for this is pretty basic: Prior to the time of the operation in question, then Prime Minister Roavin had announced the region's supports for La Resistance, an informal military/political organization trying to push the Celestial Union's government (which was deemed illegal by Funkadelia at the time, [which was a view shared by HYDRA's leadership] following the establishment of the Undead Dominion) back into power. The South Pacific Special Forces routinely engaged in attrition runs that sought to unnecessarily diminish the influence of the rightful delegate and the Border Control officers.

Due to the fact that HYDRA and Lazarus were informal allies (as mentioned, HYDRA was assisting Funkadelia's government with endorsement count), HYDRA's leadership viewed TSP's statement in support of (as well as the mentioned attrition operations) as a direct hostility against a region that HYDRA was friendly with at the time. Thusly, in an effort to support a friendly partner, HYDRA engaged in a military operation designed solely for the purpose of protecting what was (at the time) the legitimate government of Lazarus. The operation was not meant to undermine TSP, specifically, nor was it a direct attack, it was actually used as a scapegoat for a bigger problem. So, yes, maybe you do have reason to proscribe us. But your facts still aren't entirely correct...

Intel suggests that hatred of the South Pacific is deliberately fostered within HYDRA and TRI amongst new members.

Again, any of these allegations would be pertinent to our military, the Armada, and not the region at large, which has yet to take a specific stance on this issue. I wouldn't say "hatred" is fostered, I think that's going a bit too far. I despise the South Pacific Special Forces because it does attempt to undermine our military operations on a fairly regular basis, as well as some of the other regional elements of the South Pacific. Those would include some of its laws, court cases, corruption, foreign policy, and the like. Our two regions are seperated ideologically in so many ways that it would be impossible for there to not be some in-character disdain for the other from one region. However, personally, I wouldn't say that I hate TSP, and I believe to say that such a feeling is "fostered" would be inaccurate.

I have a lot of respect for TSP's community. There is a lot of positive energy and general willingness to improve NS's tolerance and respect. Those are values I agree with and appreciate, and commend them for their out-of-character behavior.

Sensitive Intel suggests that HYDRA/TRI had a legislator planted in TSP for the purpose of stealing internal logs and information.

I can honestly say without a tug at my conscience that I was not privy to the origins or information acquired from this so-called "operation" that allegedly happened and cannot confirm its existence. I also will not speculate on the chances that this happened under HYDRA leadership prior to my introduction to the directorate. I can confirm that none of this happened during my tenure as Commander-in-Chief of the Ragerian Armada. Regardless of whether or not this did occur, I can confirm that Cabinet level leadership of the South Pacific has planted sleeper agents in the Ragerian Armada before. With this in mind, if the actions did occur, they were most certainly warranted.

Now that I have addressed all of Farengeto’s points, I’d love to make some of my own. Firstly, TSP legislators should be ashamed of their executive government. Farengeto has realized that it is futile to attack the Land of Kings and Emperors and Balder and moved his campaign onto Lone Wolves United, The Black Hawks, and The Ragerian Imperium. Secondly, TSP’s executive government fails to complete the most basic research tasks.

Thirdly, I feel the need to address the bans McMannia and I have received from TSP’s Discord server. Under the Proscription Act, this is debatably illegal. Section 3.3 states “(3) Upon proscription of a region or organization, any members of the South Pacific affected by that proscription will have 7 days to demonstrably renounce their association to the satisfaction of the issuing authority before the proscription is enforced.” The law is plain, what is debatable is whether or not McMannia and I are members of the South Pacific, solely be residency, but regardless the move was petty. Just because the administration of the Discord is in line with Farengeto’s policies, doesn’t mean that TSP’s other Legislators don’t have a right to know the other side of the issue. It shows TSP’s cowardliness extends far beyond their attacks on TRI, TBH, Balder, and the LKE. He is pushing defender politics into TSP, and its Legislators do not deserve for this to happen.

What’s more, as General Souls has pointed out these proscriptions are based on false pretenses, especially in EWS’ case. I can only ask that TSP’s legislators consider this when the next Cabinet elections take place. I’d also like to re-iterate that, unless mentioned, these comments are my personal views and not views of any region or organization I may be in. And finally, on behalf of TRI, we stand firmly behind our allies during these times.

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

Guess I'm PNG'ed from TSP.

[Scottiesland]

@Vult

[Hulkpool]

Hi! Founder of the region HYDRA which is a placeholder region for the Original HYDRA raiding organization.

We have nothing to do with Hydra Command or H Y D R A. Which is really confusing to most people. The latter two groups which are connected to each other have nothing to do with the original. In fact, no even asked to carry on the Hydra name and no permission to do so was given. So, I classify both of those regions/org as impostor raider groups.

Just wanted to clarify they aren't the same.

Carry on!