Lily - hi again :O

[RiderSyl]

Tell me, what was done to the region? Answer carefully, because you may redefine an entire subset of raiding.

And still, bumping off delegacies is damaging. It resets welcome TGs and any WA approvals and/or votes. Especially the former can hurt because it's not something that people intuitively think of. So yes, it can be both petty and damaging, and there is no real opt-out.

Is it your position that Roavin was correct when he said that?

[Lord Dominator]

Is it your position that Roavin was correct when he said that?

I mean, most of what he says there is factual - nor am I one to deny raiding actually does damage. I rather thought it'd be amusing to answer your question with the then-TGW answer

[RiderSyl]

Is it your position that Roavin was correct when he said that?

I mean, most of what he says there is factual - nor am I one to deny raiding actually does damage. I rather thought it'd be amusing to answer your question with the then-TGW answer

Oh, okay. So what's your actual answer to my question then?

[Lord Dominator]

I mean, most of what he says there is factual - nor am I one to deny raiding actually does damage. I rather thought it'd be amusing to answer your question with the then-TGW answer

Oh, okay. So what's your actual answer to my question then?

A native delegate was removed from office for about 12 hours by a delegate bump raid pushing another native into the delegacy on the major update of Saturday November 28, 2020.

Edit: And of course, Roavin was broadly right on the potential consequences of such a raid, which I found it amusing to quote directly.

[RiderSyl]

Oh, okay. So what's your actual answer to my question then?

A native delegate was removed from office for about 12 hours by a delegate bump raid pushing another native into the delegacy on the major update of Saturday November 28, 2020.

I see you took my advice of "Answer carefully" to heart. Feels like I just asked Alexa whether she spies on me.

Edit: And of course, Roavin was broadly right on the potential consequences of such a raid

And it's broadly right to say that those potential consequences are comparatively nil when put next to the potential consequences of the joint Euro-TBH operation aimed at Japan a few weeks ago, and when put next to the litany of other R/D activities carried out in the past several years. And it's broadly right to say that the discussion of the potential consequences of the operation against Mikeswill on major update of Saturday November 28, 2020 is only taking place out of bad faith. It's even broadly right to say that the use of Roavin's words, combined with the unwillingness you have to say what Roavin said in your own words, indicates that it isn't only "amusing" to use Roavin's words, but also convenient, as it keeps raiders from having to take a position that would very obviously contradict previous operations.

It's very specifically right to say that no matter which side it comes from, I really hate seeing this sort of poorly-executed tergiversation. Everyone can tell what you're playing at, LD. Anyone that claims otherwise is feigning ignorance. Be better at the spin game, or abandon it and be blunt. Please.

[Lord Dominator]

A native delegate was removed from office for about 12 hours by a delegate bump raid pushing another native into the delegacy on the major update of Saturday November 28, 2020.

I see you took my advice of "Answer carefully" to heart. Feels like I just asked Alexa whether she spies on me.

Edit: And of course, Roavin was broadly right on the potential consequences of such a raid

And it's broadly right to say that those potential consequences are comparatively nil when put next to the potential consequences of the joint Euro-TBH operation aimed at Japan a few weeks ago, and when put next to the litany of other R/D activities carried out in the past several years. And it's broadly right to say that the discussion of the potential consequences of the operation against Mikeswill on major update of Saturday November 28, 2020 is only taking place out of bad faith. It's even broadly right to say that the use of Roavin's words, combined with the unwillingness you have to say what Roavin said in your own words, indicates that it isn't only "amusing" to use Roavin's words, but also convenient, as it keeps raiders from having to take a position that would very obviously contradict previous operations.

It's very specifically right to say that no matter which side it comes from, I really hate seeing this sort of poorly-executed tergiversation. Everyone can tell what you're playing at, LD. Anyone that claims otherwise is feigning ignorance. Be better at the spin game, or abandon it and be blunt. Please.

If I cared about the damage to regions, I wouldn't be a raider. If I hadn't found Roavin's thing there to amuse myself with, the answer (if I had given one) would have been "the delegate was removed for 12 hours." In order to spin something, I have to want to care about the impressions of other operations. And of course, considering that was criticism by Roavin of the much larger version of this same raid, perhaps I'm already contradicting whatever previous position there may be.

[Cormactopia Prime]

A native delegate was removed from office for about 12 hours by a delegate bump raid pushing another native into the delegacy on the major update of Saturday November 28, 2020.

I see you took my advice of "Answer carefully" to heart. Feels like I just asked Alexa whether she spies on me.

Edit: And of course, Roavin was broadly right on the potential consequences of such a raid

And it's broadly right to say that those potential consequences are comparatively nil when put next to the potential consequences of the joint Euro-TBH operation aimed at Japan a few weeks ago, and when put next to the litany of other R/D activities carried out in the past several years. And it's broadly right to say that the discussion of the potential consequences of the operation against Mikeswill on major update of Saturday November 28, 2020 is only taking place out of bad faith. It's even broadly right to say that the use of Roavin's words, combined with the unwillingness you have to say what Roavin said in your own words, indicates that it isn't only "amusing" to use Roavin's words, but also convenient, as it keeps raiders from having to take a position that would very obviously contradict previous operations.

It's very specifically right to say that no matter which side it comes from, I really hate seeing this sort of poorly-executed tergiversation. Everyone can tell what you're playing at, LD. Anyone that claims otherwise is feigning ignorance. Be better at the spin game, or abandon it and be blunt. Please.

It's entirely possible to point out someone is being a hypocrite while not agreeing with that person's views. Here, I'll demonstrate:

Though I don't agree with their views on regional sovereignty, the Grey Wardens are being hypocrites.

It really is that easy. The issue is not whether Lord Dominator or any other raider complaining about this believes what the Grey Wardens say, the issue is whether the Grey Wardens believe what the Grey Wardens say. If they do, they shouldn't have invaded NationStates and interrupted its Delegacy, because according to their own stated views, doing that to a region that isn't raider or raider-sympathizing is wrong. NationStates is neither raider nor raider-sympathizing; only their Delegate, a former raider, is raider-sympathizing. If the Grey Wardens' new view is that any region with a raider or former raider as Delegate is now vulnerable to invasion by the Grey Wardens, perhaps they should come out and say so. If, instead, they just did what they wanted, this isn't part of any consistent worldview because they don't have one, and they don't actually give a rat's ass if Delegate streaks are interrupted and everything Roavin, et al. said about it in the past was nothing more than points-scoring propaganda for the peanut gallery, they should come out and say that too.

Regardless of which it is, there's absolutely no reason anyone should refrain from pointing out they're hypocrites based on their own views, regardless of whether the person pointing it out agrees with those views. In fact it's very often people who don't share someone's stated views who can most easily and objectively look at the person's actions compared to their supposed, professed values and note the hypocrisy in the contrast.

[RiderSyl]

now that is good spin game.

[Cormactopia Prime]

now that is good spin game.

I'm available to the Council of the Hawks or whoever else in an advisory capacity for a very small, very reasonable fee.

Disclaimer: The above is a joke and shouldn't be used by any moderators who might be gleefully glad to be rid of me (hi Sedge and CG) as pretext to delete my nation or anything. Everyone knows I'll give my opinion for free and unsolicited.

[RiderSyl]

also, just a correction -

NationStates is neither raider nor raider-sympathizing; only their Delegate, a former raider, is raider-sympathizing. If the Grey Wardens' new view is that any region with a raider or former raider as Delegate is now vulnerable to invasion by the Grey Wardens, perhaps they should come out and say so. If, instead, they just did what they wanted, this isn't part of any consistent worldview because they don't have one, and they don't actually give a rat's ass if Delegate streaks are interrupted and everything Roavin, et al. said about it in the past was nothing more than points-scoring propaganda for the peanut gallery, they should come out and say that too.

viewtopic.php?p=38029144#p38029144

they already came out and put out a statement in their thread. the first half of the statement seems to fulfill the "come out and say your views" thing.

i'm assuming you hadn't read that yet.

[Cormactopia Prime]

also, just a correction -

viewtopic.php?p=38029144#p38029144

they already came out and put out a statement in their thread. the first half of the statement seems to fulfill the "come out and say your views" thing.

i'm assuming you hadn't read that yet.

Actually, I had read that statement, but it doesn't really clear up the inconsistency with their past views in an unambiguous way. The focus of the statement is on Mikeswill, but the Grey Wardens' previously articulated views take aim at raider and raider-sympathizing regions. That policy was problematic enough in how broad it was, something I've been pointing out for years because they could construe numerous game-created regions as being raider or raider-sympathizing and thus valid targets for invasion. This was the basis for my concern during my last term as Pharaoh of Osiris, and at the time it was rejected out of hand as being propaganda and fear-mongering. Obviously, the Grey Wardens weren't going to invade Osiris or any other GCRs that raid; they meant those other raider and raider-sympathizing regions, everyone said at the time, and I was just being an alarmist and/or opportunist.

Now here we are in 2020 and they've invaded a founderless user-created region, one of the game's oldest, largest, and most historic, not even because it is a raider or raider-leaning region, but because its Delegate, a single individual, is a former raider who is raider-sympathizing. They've escalated their views on going after raiders to include invading regions that are neither raider nor raider-sympathizing because the region has a raider or raider-sympathizing Delegate. I'm sure, were I to point out that there are currently game-created regions that have raider, former raider, or raider-sympathizing Delegates, I would again be dismissed as an alarmist or opportunist, because of course they don't mean them, just those other raider or raider-sympathizing Delegates.

So, to get back to the point, no, that statement isn't really convincing or sufficient, because it articulates the reasoning for this specific invasion without clarifying whether this is now a consistent policy for the Grey Wardens. If NationStates was a valid, legitimate target because its Delegate is a former raider who still sympathizes with raiders, is any region with a raider, former raider, or raider-sympathizing Delegate now a legitimate target for the Grey Wardens? If not, why not? What makes them different from NationStates? And if so, if any such region is now a valid target, are their other, supposedly less extreme defender allies okay with that? How about TNP, Lily, JTF, and other independents, which participated in this operation alongside them? As usual, the Wardens' incoherent statement articulating incoherent policy that contradicts past incoherent policy raises more questions than it answers. One might assume they do this on purpose so whenever they're called on their hypocrisy they can just shift the goalposts wherever they'd like them.

But I'm sure that's just my alarmism and opportunism talking too!

[RiderSyl]

gonna be honest, i'm not a fan of how you're maximizing TGW's involvement and minimizing LILY's. i understand that it strengthens your argument to do that, but y'know, i'm in LILY, and not TGW, so i don't like it. LILY planned and ran this op. it wasn't a "TGW does the actual work but LILY gets handed the op for political reasons" sort of situation (oddly specific, i know, but that's what you think it is). this was Frenchy's brainchild, full stop. we had people that had never done R/D before joining us from Sweeze's and Frenchy's social circles to fill out the numbers. we even invited LWU to join us, though they waffled and then declined. if TGW having as many Wardens involved as it did was planned, we wouldn't have been scrambling to find warm bodies so much.

also, since you brought it up, TGW wasn't going to invade Osiris because it wasn't feasibly possible. it's the same reason TBH isn't going to invade The South Pacific. and remember, Osiris' real issue at the time was that all but one of its Guardians was compromised by members of the ol' Francoist NPO. and your paranoia about TGW helped drive away the only one that wasn't compromised.

[Cormactopia Prime]

gonna be honest, i'm not a fan of how you're maximizing TGW's involvement and minimizing LILY's. i understand that it strengthens your argument to do that, but y'know, i'm in LILY, and not TGW, so i don't like it. LILY planned and ran this op. it wasn't a "TGW does the actual work but LILY gets handed the op for political reasons" sort of situation (oddly specific, i know, but that's what you think it is). this was Frenchy's brainchild, full stop. we had people that had never done R/D before joining us from Sweeze's and Frenchy's social circles to fill out the numbers. we even invited LWU to join us, though they waffled and then declined. if TGW having as many Wardens involved as it did was planned, we wouldn't have been scrambling to find warm bodies so much.

Just to be clear on this point, my intent wasn't to minimize Lily's leading role in this. The difference is simply that I don't have a problem with Lily, but I do have a problem with the Grey Wardens' hypocrisy, so that's why I'm focused in on them. I'm sure you folks did indeed do the heavy lifting, and as I said before, congratulations to all non-defenders on what really was an impressive feat. I'm not bothered that NationStates' Delegacy streak was ended -- I wanted to end it for a long time myself, not out of any problem with Mikeswill but just to do it -- so good for y'all for doing what I never could.

I don't think Lily was just a front for the Wardens to make this politically palatable, either. I'm not sure what gave you that impression, but it's inaccurate.

also, since you brought it up, TGW wasn't going to invade Osiris because it wasn't feasibly possible. it's the same reason TBH isn't going to invade The South Pacific. and remember, Osiris' real issue at the time was that all but one of its Guardians was compromised by members of the ol' Francoist NPO. and your paranoia about TGW helped drive away the only one that wasn't compromised.

I mean, you're not wrong, though no one knew or could have known about the Francoist infiltrators so I don't know why that's being put singularly on my shoulders like the entire region wasn't duped. Anyway, that doesn't mean my concern about TGW wasn't justified, only that I let it lead me to distrust certain people, yourself included, I should have known were trustworthy regardless of their affiliation. TGW have demonstrated again and again that my overall concern about them has indeed always been spot on though, and their most recent demonstration of it was their involvement in this invasion and their underlying rationalization -- Mikeswill likes raiders, therefore they consider him the enemy. Their hostility was, and remains, a threat to any region that ever raids, or apparently now any region that dares to even put former raiders in its leadership, as long as they aren't already buddies with TGW. But that doesn't mean everyone involved in TGW is necessarily a threat and that's a lesson I wish I'd learned in 2016. Hindsight is 20/20, and all that.

[Gibraltarica]

How about TNP, Lily, JTF, and other independents, which participated in this operation alongside them?

But I'm sure that's just my alarmism and opportunism talking too!

On behalf of the JTF, yes, and yes.

[Frenchy II]

Y’all, this is the Lily thread. If y’all have issues with TGW being in our operation, take it up with them somewhere else.

[Comfed]

Y’all, this is the Lily thread. If y’all have issues with TGW being in our operation, take it up with them somewhere else.

Looks like people already have

[Warzone Codger]

Lily more like silly

This about sums up my views, and Lily in general.

[Comfed]

Lily more like silly

This about sums up my views, and Lily in general.

Why?

[Cormactopia Prime]

Y’all, this is the Lily thread. If y’all have issues with TGW being in our operation, take it up with them somewhere else.

A defender was the one who originally got this ball rolling (and if you want to point out he was just replying to Lord Dominator, I can point out that Lord Dominator was in turn just replying to Sedge), the First Warden kept it going, and one of your own members has been perpetuating it.

This is not to mention that your own report mentioned TGW's involvement in your operation, making it fair game to discuss their involvement in your thread since that's where the original report about the operation was, well before TGW released a statement on it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I replied in this thread solely because that's where Frattastan, Tim, and RiderSyl had made the comments I was replying to; it would be a little odd to reply to them elsewhere, wouldn't you say? If you don't want these things discussed in your thread, maybe talk to your members and the friends of your organization who kept that topic going in the first place. You can't reasonably expect people who disagree with them not to reply to them in your thread just because you don't care for the dissenting point of view.

That said, now that TGW has a statement about this I'm happy to discuss it in their thread, I just don't appreciate you acting like those disagreeing with Frattastan, Syl, et al. were the ones hijacking your thread. It's pretty clear your own members and friends were the ones keeping this going.

[RiderSyl]

Just to be clear on this point, my intent wasn't to minimize Lily's leading role in this.

I appreciate that.

But that doesn't mean everyone involved in TGW is necessarily a threat and that's a lesson I wish I'd learned in 2016. Hindsight is 20/20, and all that.

and I really appreciate this.

in the rest of your reply, there's really nothing I can disagree with you on, unsurprisingly.

it's good to have you back Cormac, but it was also good to imagine that you had escaped this cursed game.

[Ikania]

Y'all are so much fun... but I love the attention.

The credit goes to the 17 year old kid that took down the 16 year old streak.
That kid (Frenchy II) organized a flawless invasion.
The fact that I was on-line is especially notable as I am typically asleep at 12:17 am


There might be four Nations that were around NationStates region 17 years ago when I first became UN Delegate
Maybe two who understand how impossible it was to try to be independent between the Raider/Defender factions at the time.

I came to NationStates in my first year of sobriety
It was an awesome diversion from my previous life
In these 17 years I have grown immensely though sometimes the road was messy
NationStates has been a mirror of that path
Today I am at Peace with the world
The streak is over and another day has awoken

It's all good

I'm a little late to the party, but this is a historic moment in NS history. Congratulations to Frenchy and everyone who broke the unbreakable record, and props to Mike for being so gracious about it. This is a very impressive feat.

[Frenchy II]

_{Report written by The Personal Missionary of Jorge Bergoglio
"Hubadabubada"}
Minor Update 12/5/2020
Had a nice easy minor with one of our friends, Furkessar. Just some very comfortable tagging, no shitposting today.


_Obama

The White Crows
Peace and Love
Nosex Islands
The Commonwealth Federation
Around the World in Eighty Days
The 1980s
Federation Epsilon Indi System
Hamood Habibia
Scandinavian Commonwealth
Battleship 3
United Jabariland
Flohovistan Card Farm
0527 red knot
Nation of One
Hufflefuffian Land of Awesomeness
This is just to say
Balmora Blue
Henry of Winchester
0527 Frecklec
League of Memes
The Roleplay Entente
Double Leopardy
Westgang
WDP
Alesia
Meridia
The United Nations of Jeffersonia
The Breadlands
New Justice
Andhra Pradesh
Solids and liquids
Free Slavic States
The Conglomerate
Plastic plant in corner of Maxs Office
Nur Sultan

Lily | sweeze do your tags
Lily | frenchy ii
MERC | Furkessar

[Frenchy II]

_{Report written by The Personal Missionary of Jorge Bergoglio
"Hubadabubada"}
Major Update 12/19/2020


_{Our Place of Business, waste is hiding out in there somewhere}

After a long day at the SALT MINES, sweeze and Frenchy rounded up a crew to go Christmas caroling. First they visited Atlae over at The East Pacific who got a few friends to join in on the merry fun! Then they visited Jinkies over at the Joint Task Force who decided to come along! They hopped around from native home to native home, spreading some cheer and gifts from their work when some naughty Grinches (chasers!!!) showed up and decided to steal all the salted figgy pudding! Before the Grinches showed up, Lily and friends were able to snag 223 hits!
_{"On the first day of Christmas, Lily gave to me,
A brand new salt factory!"}


Team 1:
Lily | Frenchy II
Lily | Sweeze
The East Pacific | The Atlae Isles

Scared Protectorate
Herd United
Polar trade commonwealth
Emirates
Alt Leftist Alliance
The Bad Palace
Carcosa
The Pantopian Delegate Union
Intergalactic Space Command
Timurid Rose
Nihonto
Forgive me
Wielki Hiszpanski
Royal Canadian Air Force
Liberty and Freedom
The Alliance of Failed States
The United City States of Israel
High flags
Neos Puppet Dump
Birdeys
Banana Emporium
Fisk
FluffWorld
Ikaros
Union Of Potatoes
The Great Eastern Utopia
1984
Roadkill County
Libertatia
Virgo Supercluster
The Mojave Desert
The Imperial Union of King Butcher
Holy Goose Empire
Warzone Argimin
Republic of Great Normandy
Glorious Region For Glorious Nation
Amsterlands
Aethelstan
The Roleplay Entente
CIS Commonwealth of independent states
Themiscyra
Strictly Funky
The Grand Imperium
The World Story
UDN
League
Asian Nation
The AfroAsian Defensiv Union
Hontodat Dedication Square
Aulsaria
FDF reigon
Asia Tenggara
The Isles of Greenspan
The Wolves of Winter
Noname Region
The Republic of The Maldives
Eurasia
New Justice
Sonic Youth
Greater Abysmia
North Europe Germany
NS Press
Conch Kingdoms follower
The Experiment 2
Palm Tree Empire
Medieval Europe
The Imperial Nations
The Ultimate German Reich
Red Confederation
The Runaround
Palotopia
0527 yellow wattled lapwing
The Elder Realms
0527 swan goose
0527 plainswanderer
The Kingsteak Tavern
Nordimorr
Notcraft
Talunea East
Orbis Alia
U Haul Puppet Storage Facility
V O I D
New Liberty
Cabo
The Kraftian Regional Nation
Revan
Uniao da Cracolandia
A region to be ignored or raided or smth
my Brain appointed The Bird
my Brain became WA Delegate of The Controversy
New Brit Empire
Happy Valley
ASEAN REGION

Team 2:
Lily | RiderSyl
Joint Task Force | Gibraltarica
The East Pacific | Loreintor
The East Pacific | Catiania

N i r
Le funny region
Greatest Region Ever
Giga
Tropical Socialist Union
The Atlantic Space Station
The AnCap Empire
ROKPG
Ardala
Siochain
0527 eurasian wigeon
Authoritarian Democracies
Aeryedon
Temporary Home
The Kayyoor Pact
Confederation of Outlying Nations
Duct Tape Land of Ducks
The Midlands
The Northern Elenchos
Astrali
The Cult of Jim Pickens
Arthenia
The United nations of Esnal
The Great Communist Region
The Confederacy of Ska
0527 greybreated seedsnipe
The Huddled Masses of Gayness
Land of Slatos
Stephen of Blois
The Union of Free Market States
Duuloc
Ravioli
Refrigerator
Esterois
The Collective Nations of Chungus
Plexible Convictions
LUTO
The Union of Demoratic Nations
Abayan Reigon
The Spiritual Land
The Kingdom of Egaje
United Free Nations Government school
The United Semitic Region
Bald Head of Aang
The Stadium
Dawn of Civilization Roleplay
EGG land
Mad Assembly of Dribbling Lunatics
Poop Forces Federation Federation
The church of zombie jesus
0527 white winged tern
Federation of Rice Lovers
The Family of Brightness
Eastern American Union
Tutagual
My Region xDD
The Appalachian Federation
Insert unfunny gif
Northern Kingdoms
A New Dawn
OPIC
0527 Bronzewinged
War command
Federation of Free Republics
The last great american dynasty
Crested shelduck
Fdkjjbdjsk
The Lions World
Grand Land of Direct Democracy
I messed up
Cruel angry neck of the woods
International Alliance of Dictatorships
The Universal Union
Aetenia
Beegurt
0527 lathams snipe
Mirrorball
The Lower Intestine of Mickey Mouse
James has large pp
Cosenian Himalayas
Safe Implications
The Central Reformed Republic
school
Most popular girls
The Empire of Non Libtards
Funian Empire
Guns and Ammo
Industrial Region
Geometry The Region
Flabby Pringles
Chill Land
Sanesssia
Wind On Water
Association of Asia
Commonwealth of Independent Nations
Video game thing
Petram
Mar Sands
Oktavia
Tolerate it
Lone Tree Gov Per 2
Very Brave New World
Nutland
Lyonesse
Bonk
Leddecha
For breakfast
Periodic Tablecloth
Prussian Eagle
Third International
Arms Dealer
Jahkku
The region of the independent warriors
Crossing Field
Corrupted Macula Offeret
Frickers
0527 bairds sandpiper
Central Imperial Senate
The lands of labor
Neo Orbis
Oppression is the best
Grand kingdom free region
States of Osteania
Far northern Siberia
The Vincence Empire
DarkFire
South East Asian Union

[Pro Valle]

_{"On the first day of Christmas, Lily gave to me,
A brand new salt factory!"}

On the eighth day of Christmas, my baby gave to me/A new salt factory, courtesy Lily

(goodness - I remember having this nation in Grand Land of Direct Democracy back when it was one of the world's largest puppet storage regions in the long, hot, rather controversial summer of 2017)

[Gibraltarica]

Cheers, Lily, it was fun joining you all.