Lily - hi again :O

[Syberis]

I can give you 4 reasons, Atte.

Those regions are all.. terrible, frankly.

Because, wonderfully, "raider purism" is going the way of the dinosaur

Not with me around it's not.

Reasons*, Comrade Sarah.

I think you forget that this is a game. If people want to do things a certain way to have fun, and aren't hurting or being dicks to anyone else, power to em, I say.

[Shizensky]

Real talk though, just about any type of purist is thrown out the window these days. The masses have finally discarded the absurdity of getting worked up over a bunch of ones and zeros and now the focus is on making update a fun time. The people who take it too seriously aren't anywhere near as influential as they once were, and to be totally honest, GP is miles better for it. Sure, we've traded toxicity and poorly masked condescension for edgy meme lords, but the former drove people away while the latter at least provides the occasional chuckle.

Nobody has time for the purist raider or the moralist defender anymore. It's not even that they disagree with it - they just don't care. Nobody wants to spend an hour with bible thumpers when they could be laughing about stupid shit with friends. The petty rivalries have been exposed as childish, and the new thing is congratulating one another in each other's Discord servers after a good night.

R/D is fun as shit right now because people are finally getting over themselves.

[Consular]

I have a few different opinions on that, but best just leave everyone being happy for now.

[Queen Yuno]

Real talk though, just about any type of purist is thrown out the window these days. The masses have finally discarded the absurdity of getting worked up over a bunch of ones and zeros and now the focus is on making update a fun time. The people who take it too seriously aren't anywhere near as influential as they once were, and to be totally honest, GP is miles better for it. Sure, we've traded toxicity and poorly masked condescension for edgy meme lords, but the former drove people away while the latter at least provides the occasional chuckle.

Nobody has time for the purist raider or the moralist defender anymore. It's not even that they disagree with it - they just don't care. Nobody wants to spend an hour with bible thumpers when they could be laughing about stupid shit with friends. The petty rivalries have been exposed as childish, and the new thing is congratulating one another in each other's Discord servers after a good night.

R/D is fun as shit right now because people are finally getting over themselves.

My thoughts exactly ^_^

We're all gamers.

[Chingis]

I can give you 4 reasons, Atte.

Those reasons* are all terrible frankly

It's a moderately (badum tss) novel theme, I clean the tagfields for new tag raids, and I want to have fun. Don't see anything terrible about any one of these.

But whatever, you do you, and we'll do 2 updates a day, with a new, fun generation of raiders.

A fair deal if you ask me

[Jakker]

Real talk though, just about any type of purist is thrown out the window these days. The masses have finally discarded the absurdity of getting worked up over a bunch of ones and zeros and now the focus is on making update a fun time. The people who take it too seriously aren't anywhere near as influential as they once were, and to be totally honest, GP is miles better for it. Sure, we've traded toxicity and poorly masked condescension for edgy meme lords, but the former drove people away while the latter at least provides the occasional chuckle.

Nobody has time for the purist raider or the moralist defender anymore. It's not even that they disagree with it - they just don't care. Nobody wants to spend an hour with bible thumpers when they could be laughing about stupid shit with friends. The petty rivalries have been exposed as childish, and the new thing is congratulating one another in each other's Discord servers after a good night.

R/D is fun as shit right now because people are finally getting over themselves.

I agree with what you're saying. I would also add that I do think it's possible for regions and organizations to only raid or defend and still not be extreme in their views/practices. While the concept of being purist or moralist has often come with one-sided beliefs on the game and those who play it, that isn't always the case. There is a healthy way to be a pure raiding or pure defending group and that shouldn't be overlooked either.

Best of luck to Lily. Since the targets are random, what if you're raiding with other groups and a region comes up that has their org's tag? What happens then?

[Chingis]

Don't take this as an official statement from the org but my personal opinion is that it isn't fair to force someone to detag their organizations tags. However just because someone from say TBH took part in the raid, won't mean that every single point in every single team isn't going to detag TBH hits for that update. However, Lili might have a different view so atm this is juat a personal view.

TLDR I think you shouldn't have to detag your own org for the hits u were point for.

[RiderSyl]

Because, wonderfully, "raider purism" is going the way of the dinosaur

Not with me around it's not.

Especially with you around it is

[Canton Empire]

Its been a while since I've seen the name Isaraider.

I’m very disappointed in you.

Looking at your flag, you had the perfect opportunity to make a great Star Wars reference and you missed it.

[Lily Publications Office]

6/20 Major and Minor update
Warriors of Lily are small in number, but they are the most dedicated force currently deployed on the field. Fighting their way through hordes of enemies, they explore long lost secrets of war torn regions and restore others. The task ahead is a difficult one, but our progress has been very substantial. The scales of balance have already begun moving in the right direction and they will continue doing so until the world reaches peace again.

Major, 29 hits

Regions Tagged:
Batasun Union
Funkebunchia
Magna Imperium
Planet Nemak
Frozen Tundra
United Regions Of Kekifa
Gullin15 Official Fan Club
The Barricades
The Allied States Of Serendipity
The Union Of Independent Nations
Spelunked
The Free World Of Earth
Tyrant Region
Hongestien
Communist Region Of Byroland
Infinite Waters
The Alliance Of The States
Borboolos


Regions Detagged:
Holy Internet Empire
Closure
United League Of Nations
Atlantic Region
Klub Strudel
Visiona
Religion Hunters
The Jungles Of Ooga Booga
West Communist Union
Aurantium
Usnuspeon


Minor, 25 hits

Regions Tagged:
Isles Of The Damned
Gcr Sovereignty
Pinner
Coalition Of Free Nations
Team Rocket
A Giant Landmass
The Empire Of Alliance
The Dragon Isles
Souljaboytellemvevo
Autistico Nuova Regione
Socialist Dominon
The Confederation Of Fire
Subsaharan Asia


Regions Detagged:
Dlonk
Fornsigtuna
Assyria
Goldberg Commonwealth Of Nations
The Freedom States
Riemst
Las Vegas Strip
The Polish Inquistion
Sandhopper
Team Avolition
Earthen
Corruptus In Extremis

[Jakker]

Don't take this as an official statement from the org but my personal opinion is that it isn't fair to force someone to detag their organizations tags. However just because someone from say TBH took part in the raid, won't mean that every single point in every single team isn't going to detag TBH hits for that update. However, Lili might have a different view so atm this is juat a personal view.

TLDR I think you shouldn't have to detag your own org for the hits u were point for.

I don't think anyone would or should detag their own org hits anyway. You also made the point that you all are detagging because people have said things against retagging. Detagging is just as bad if not worse than retagging. And you all seem to be doing that a lot more than retags were happening. My point is that don't be surprised if your actions upset other organizations. And no, that has nothing to do with not being fun.

[RiderSyl]

Detagging is just as bad if not worse than retagging.

Oh that is not true in the slightest

[Consular]

I really don't understand why retagging bothers anyone at all.

[Jakker]

Detagging is just as bad if not worse than retagging.

Oh that is not true in the slightest

It is when it is happening at a higher rate than retags were

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I really don't understand why retagging bothers anyone at all.

To paraphrase something Satya once said, becuase he made the points better than I had ever strung together before -

It's a net negative for all of raiding. Tags are advertisements. New tags=more advertisement for raiding. More new tags are good for all of raiding. Retags are not creating a net increase in number of tags. In fact, they create a net decrease in practice - while few defenders these days regularly actively detag, they do chase at update and will detag any they hit while chasing, meaning retags missed to defenders becomes a net loss of tags. Retagging, in short, is even on a purely mathematical level, bad for raiding as a whole. Further, there's the effects of it's selfishness - namely, that other regions tend not to like it, which drives division, which is *also* bad for raiding as a whole. Finally, at least at this point in time, there's not a factor that *outweights* those things, namely availability. (At the time, which was a month ish ago) Only about 15-20% of taggable regions have a tag on them. Based on planning runs, avoiding retags rarely means more than adding an extra 30 seconds between hits, and has a net effect of hitting usually no more than 2 or 3 less regions - a smaller amount than we usually miss due to bad jumps on any given raid. This is proven by the fact that the orgs some folks are claiming 'took all the tags' manage to still run large tag runs without hitting their own or others' tags themselves. All that is to say; it's not *hard* to avoid retags, it's a minimal extra effort to be taken at this point, and any retagging done is either absolutely laziness/lack of caring, or intentional. Together, it just doesn't make sense to be selfish in that way.

[RiderSyl]

Oh that is not true in the slightest

It is when it is happening at a higher rate than retags were

Only if you're cherry-picking the context... The deaths (TBR, DEN) and decrease in activity (The Invaders) of retag-heavy organizations, plus defenders overcoming detagging apathy in recent years, is the reason for the higher rate. Retagging is still worse than detagging, and it always will be. 300 regions retagged is worth about 30 regions detagged.

EDIT: Basically, what your General said.

[Kylia Quilor]

Yes, well, if you can increase the number of viable targets, that'd be nice. Or the person that at some point went through the founderless regions and passworded a bunch of them could just undo that.

[RiderSyl]

Yes, well, if you can increase the number of viable targets, that'd be nice. Or the person that at some point went through the founderless regions and passworded a bunch of them could just undo that.

Is it time to "Liberate" them?

[Chingis]

I don't think anyone would or should detag their own org hits anyway. You also made the point that you all are detagging because people have said things against retagging. Detagging is just as bad if not worse than retagging. And you all seem to be doing that a lot more than retags were happening. My point is that don't be surprised if your actions upset other organizations. And no, that has nothing to do with not being fun.[/quote]

That's not quite what i said Jakker (not accusing you of twisting my words, just trying to clarify what I meant)

I said the reason we detag as opposed to retagging is because people believe retagging is bad raider conduct. This way, we don't act in a negative fashion. We don't rip down your tag just to put ours over it, like a massive "f**k you" to your org. This way, we do what defenders should be doing - restoring the original WFE. WE don't gain from it in any way really, except opening up an extra raidable region - one that you are free to make use of and rehit again too. This is just a theme that Lili suggested, and I believe to be interesting for our org. Imagine it this way, when we detag a region we act as defenders, not as raiders. I am more than capable of filtering out all previously tagged regions. In fact the code is literally there, just commented out. I don't believe that we will lose a lot of targets if I uncomment it. But the theme of the region is one that both tags and detags and it is one I very much like. The reason I compared the detags to retags is because we could also just retag the region and move on, but we dont - we create a fair opportunity for all the other org - come retake it, its a fresh target, while cleaning up the tagfields, which no one does nowadays. The reason these detags are happening at a rate which is faster than the retags were happening before, is because Lily isn't even a week old, and we're sitting close to 250 hit regions. Its no wonder that some of those hits are your old tags. However, the targets are completely random, we dont discriminate to previously targeted regions, neither do we aim for any specific org. I can pull all the numbers, but the other day when we were checking our hits, there was one (TBH) detag to 7 tags in that update. As can be seen from reports, on more active updates that number climbs to about 40/60, but TI shoulders just as much of the blow as you do.

Also, I suggest you note Satya's written piece quoted by Souls:

Retagging, in short, is even on a purely mathematical level, bad for raiding as a whole. Further, there's the effects of it's selfishness - namely, that other regions tend not to like it, which drives division, which is *also* bad for raiding as a whole. All that is to say; it's not *hard* to avoid retags, it's a minimal extra effort to be taken at this point, and any retagging done is either absolutely laziness/lack of caring, or intentional. Together, it just doesn't make sense to be selfish in that way.

Luckily, we aren't terribly selfish. And the long line of embassy closures on the TBH page, which is only going to grow with time should be an incentive for you guys - get out there and tag already!

Oh and that also brings me up to the fact that detagging means that there isn't really any chance of a tag war here, because its absolutely fair - you need a hit to tag the WFE, we need a hit to clear the WFE, and we both need a hit to tag it. We don't skip the middle stage, making it unfair for you guys.

So yeah, thats probably it. I'm not very talented with words, so hopefully I don't get completely roasted. Hope that made sense.

[Jakker]

It is when it is happening at a higher rate than retags were

Only if you're cherry-picking the context... The deaths (TBR, DEN) and decrease in activity (The Invaders) of retag-heavy organizations, plus defenders overcoming detagging apathy in recent years, is the reason for the higher rate. Retagging is still worse than detagging, and it always will be. 300 regions retagged is worth about 30 regions detagged.

EDIT: Basically, what your General said.

If you're agreeing with what Souls said, then you're agreeing with that I said...

Souls stated, "It's a net negative for all of raiding. Tags are advertisements. New tags=more advertisement for raiding. More new tags are good for all of raiding." Again, as I said retags and detags are not benefitical, but at the very least retags still advertise raiding overall. Detags do not. But, I don't want to turn this into a conversation over what is better or worse. Neither are positive for raiding overall in my opinion and as I said, don't be surprised if they upset people

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I said the reason we detag as opposed to retagging is because people believe retagging is bad raider conduct. This way, we don't act in a negative fashion. We don't rip down your tag just to put ours over it, like a massive "f**k you" to your org.

Surprisingly, detagging other raider regions' tags is also generally considered "bad raider conduct" and a bit of a "fuck you."

[Chingis]

I said the reason we detag as opposed to retagging is because people believe retagging is bad raider conduct. This way, we don't act in a negative fashion. We don't rip down your tag just to put ours over it, like a massive "f**k you" to your org.

Surprisingly, detagging other raider regions' tags is also generally considered "bad raider conduct" and a bit of a "fuck you."

Luckily we're not raiders. And aren't acting as such when we'ret detagging. If you'd rather we put up our tag over TBH tags just give the word we're flexible.

I have nothing against the orgs I detag. But as I said before, it's a theme. And it's 100% fair.

No fuck you involved - it's our job.

[Consular]

I don't agree with that at all Souls.

I think tagging has literally no value. Therefore someone retagging over doesn't bother me at all.

I held that view even when I was actively raiding myself.

I also find it slightly odd that people can claim they only raid for fun, but then get super cerial and hurt when someone replaces their graffiti.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I don't agree with that at all Souls.

I think tagging has literally no value. Therefore someone retagging over doesn't bother me at all.

I held that view even when I was actively raiding myself.

I also find it slightly odd that people can claim they only raid for fun, but then get super cerial and hurt when someone replaces their graffiti.

>it's unnecessary
>it's easily avoidable
>whether you feel so or not, tags factually have value as advertising at the very least
>retagging is taking the fruits of another raider region for your own when there's plenty of other fish in the sea
>not taking steps to easily avoid it tends to displease orgs who do go through the effort to avoid retagging
>consider that for some, part of the fun may be trying to collect dozens of regions with their tag on it?

[Jakker]

I don't agree with that at all Souls.

I think tagging has literally no value. Therefore someone retagging over doesn't bother me at all.

I held that view even when I was actively raiding myself.

I also find it slightly odd that people can claim they only raid for fun, but then get super cerial and hurt when someone replaces their graffiti.

Well obviously if you see no point in tag raiding, you will see no point in anything related to tagging.

Raiding is fun and people raid for fun. One part of that is being successful. Success and victory is fun. No one likes to lose. While you don't see it, tag raiding has its benefits and contributes to the success of a raiding organization. A tag promotes an organization, which is good for that organization. You can still do things for fun and still want advocate for or against things that hinder that success. It's all pretty straight forward.