Raiding Hall of Fame: Nominations for 2022 Class OPEN!

[Benevolent Thomas]

[quote="Jakker";p="34052224"I have yet to begin the process of approaching previous judges and current members in regards to this.[/quote]
More than one of us have publicly stated that we'd like to see him removed. Over a year ago. Perhaps those of us former judges who aren't on the record regarding this issue yet could state their opinions here. Jakker is a busy dude, let's make this easy for him.

[All Wild Things]

This sounds like a Monumental Melodrama to me.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I have yet to begin the process of approaching previous judges and current members in regards to this.

More than one of us have publicly stated that we'd like to see him removed. Over a year ago. Perhaps those of us former judges who aren't on the record regarding this issue yet could state their opinions here. Jakker is a busy dude, let's make this easy for him.

I've actually changed my view on this. Since we no longer impose consequences on people for wrongdoing, I think Gest should remain in the Hall of Fame.

No, I'm not serious. Carry on.

[RiderSyl]

I've actually changed my view on this. Since we no longer impose consequences on people for wrongdoing, I think Gest should remain in the Hall of Fame.

Okay then Cormac.

Being DOS does not automatically disqualify a player from being considered. Not all DOSers are the same, especially when looking at raiders from the early days. Each case is situational and up to the judges at the time to decide a player's overall portfolio and their contributions to raiding.

I never realized you were such a bureaucrat.

[The Blaatschapen]

I've actually changed my view on this. Since we no longer impose consequences on people for wrongdoing, I think Gest should remain in the Hall of Fame.

Okay then Cormac.

Being DOS does not automatically disqualify a player from being considered. Not all DOSers are the same, especially when looking at raiders from the early days. Each case is situational and up to the judges at the time to decide a player's overall portfolio and their contributions to raiding.

I never realized you were such a bureaucrat.

The mods got to him

[RiderSyl]

I never realized you were such a bureaucrat.

The mods got to him

I should have known! "Each case is situational"... That's modspeak right there!

[Greater vakolicci haven]

The mods got to him

I should have known! "Each case is situational"... That's modspeak right there!

It means 'each case is arbitrary and will bare no resemblance to any other.

[Jakker]

I should have known! "Each case is situational"... That's modspeak right there!

It means 'each case is arbitrary and will bare no resemblance to any other.

Incorrect. With game rule changes, players must be examined within the context of their time period. It is not arbitrary and players are compared to others. Just that you cannot always compared a DOS player of today to a DOS player from the beginnings of Nationstates and just assume it's all the same.

[Jakker]

For the first time in the history of the Raiding Hall of Fame, the status of an inductee was called into question due to actions after their induction. Gest was originally inducted in the 2015 inaugural class. He was inducted because he "served as a keystone in raiding over the past four years. Without him, TBR and now the current DEN would not have lasted to become one of the premier raiding organizations in NS history. Under his leadership, long standing occupations and countless tag raids have occurred. Gest is a shining example of sturdy consistency and a strategic leader in raiding."

I reached out to as many members of the Hall and past judges as I could. This included 8 inductees and 14 judges (not including myself who did not vote or the 3 inductees who also served as judges). 11 of the 14 judges replied as well as 7 of the 8 inductees. When considering Gest's status, players were asked to focus on the initial reasons for his induction and whether what happened to DEN under his leadership is enough to negate his place in the Hall of Fame.

The breakdown of the 18 votes were as follows: 5 voted in favor of Gest remaining in the Hall of Fame, 12 voted against him remaining, and 1 abstained. I engaged in lengthy conversations with several of the players who placed their vote and it was clear that there were a lot of layers to consider. This was not an easy vote for many. I sincerely thank everyone for their time and thoughtfulness.

The Raiding Hall of Fame is a space to recognize players who have made significant, positive contributions to raiding. It has been determined that while Gest's raiding accomplishments are noteworthy, his actions in DEN including perpetuating rule-breaking has overshadowed those accomplishments.

With a 60+% vote for removal, Gest has been formally removed from the Raiding Hall of Fame. On the OP of this thread, his induction will be stricken with an added note about the removal.

Judges for this year's class will be announced this week and the nomination period will open shortly.

[NOrTh pAcIfiC spY]

Not sure if I like the precedence of removing inductees. What happens, do the mentions just get struck through?

Personally, I think he deserved his place, and the awards shouldn't have bended over to some NSGPers. Obviously a lot of others have a different view, but Gest led the biggest raiding org of its time, and DEN still was the biggest raider org in modern NS.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Not sure if I like the precedence of removing inductees. What happens, do the mentions just get struck through?

That would indeed be precisely what the post above you says will happen in the OP, yes.

Personally, I think he deserved his place, and the awards shouldn't have bended over to some NSGPers. Obviously a lot of others have a different view, but Gest led the biggest raiding org of its time, and DEN still was the biggest raider org in modern NS.

Given that Jakker spent over a year running this by all judges, present and former, as well as all past inductees, as described in detail in the post above you, discussing topics exactly like "The reasons he was initially inducted remain truthful. Is what happened to DEN under his leadership enough to negate his place in the Hall of Fame?" again described in detail in Jakker's post, it's blatantly obvious that Jakker has been in no rush to arbitrarily please commentators in this thread asking about Gest's status for the past 13 months, and that the whole party of people involved in voting on the call considered exactly those factors, ultimately decided differently than you. I think that actually makes you the random NSGP'er asking the judges and members to bend over.

Also, bullshit. I don't think you could even fairly argue that DEN was bigger/better/stronger than the height of TBR, lmao.

[Glacikaldr]

-snip-

I concur! Now, in all honesty, I didn't do a particularly good job of reading your message, but I did see you reply to NPS with "bullshit" and that's good enough for my approval.

[Jakker]

Personally, I think he deserved his place, and the awards shouldn't have bended over to some NSGPers. Obviously a lot of others have a different view, but Gest led the biggest raiding org of its time, and DEN still was the biggest raider org in modern NS.

i also don't like the idea of removing inductees. As I noted in my post as well as in my conversations with others, this is not about diminishing Gest's prior accomplishments. In fact, many who even voted to remove him stated that his accomplishments were obviously worthy of the initial induction and are significant regardless. I'll quote what one of the people I reached out said:

"None of this means Gest didn't do the impressive things he did to get into the Raider Hall of Fame. I wouldn't even say this pattern of behavior negates the actions that got him into the Hall of Fame. I would say that Gest's behavior outweighs any meritorious actions that got him into the Hall of Fame."

Enough of the judges and inductees believe that to be the case as well, which is why we got to this point. This has nothing to do with "bending over" to anyone. If a majority of the inductees and judges voted for him to stay in the Hall, I would have been happy with that decision as well. Ultimately, this was not an easy outcome to make and I hope that something like this is not needed again.

[RiderSyl]

I'll quote what one of the people I reached out said:

"None of this means Gest didn't do the impressive things he did to get into the Raider Hall of Fame. I wouldn't even say this pattern of behavior negates the actions that got him into the Hall of Fame. I would say that Gest's behavior outweighs any meritorious actions that got him into the Hall of Fame."

That's perfectly said.

[Benevolent Thomas]

I wasn't nearly as kind in my vote

What happened to both TBR AND DEN under his leadership... both got annihilated for cheating. His legacy is one of fraud. He helped build an invader empire on the back of illegal programs, putting his own allies in jeopardy. That is not leadership.

I am AGAINST keeping him in the raider hall of fame.

[Wabbitslayah]

Not sure if I like the precedence of removing inductees. What happens, do the mentions just get struck through?

Personally, I think he deserved his place, and the awards shouldn't have bended over to some NSGPers. Obviously a lot of others have a different view, but Gest led the biggest raiding org of its time, and DEN still was the biggest raider org in modern NS.

I was one of the Judges that voted. I chatted with Jakker about it and asked him to give me an hour to go over it. I came to a conclusion beforehand, that there are two issues for arguing for/against.

1. Issue: Do we consider OOC behaviours along with IC behaviours for an IC placement in the HoF?
2. Issue: If OOC does not apply, does his behaviour IC balance out or negate the good he has done for raiding in his time?

I personally did not want to factor in OOC, and avoided doing so over that hour. So I ignored the first issue entirely and focused on the 2nd. I went looking around for all good and bad he's done. What finally tipped the balance was the question "Would Gest be someone that I think current and future generations of Raiders should look up to?"

My answer is no. By being placed on and honoured in a Raiding Hall of Fame it can be implied even if it's unintentional that he has represented Raiding as a role model. But many of his IC actions show that he is not. Then if I factor in Issue 1 to that, it's an ever bigger no.

I voted for the removal, that's my reasoning only. I was very much on the fence before because I did not want to take it OOC and let my own bias affect me.

[Consular]

Took a while but good result.

[Jakker]

Guidelines for Inducting the Raiding HoF Class of 2018

Public nominations will be open now until June 24th. Any player can nominate someone for the Hall of Fame. Nominees should be gameplayers who have positively contributed to raiding over a significant period of time. To nominate, please post the nominee in this thread along with a statement describing why the player deserve to be inducted. The more information provided, the better for the candidate's chances.

After June 24h, the judges will come together to vote to induct up to five players to this year's class. Judges will also be able to nominate players on their own. The inductees will be announced at the conclusion of RaiderCon.

2018 Judges:
Crushing Our Enemies
Mallorea and Riva
Savaer
Scardino
The Stalker

Any questions regarding the nomination process can be directed here on the thread or to Jakker directly. This thread can also be used to discuss potential nominees and their contributions. The judges value as much information and insight as possible. We want to recognize as many deserving players as possible. The Public nomination period is officially open, so start discussing!

[Carolus Rex Francae]

I nominate Jakker.

Jakker has led multiple operations as point or trigger for the Black Hawks, among which (excluding those mentioned in Security Council 112) is the recent operation on Esquarium (wherein his nation, Rediar, which is "Raider" in reverse, went unnoticed by defenders). In addition to this, he has led the Black Hawks for a long time, most notably as Field Marshal from November 24, 2011 to August 16, 2012, and as Head of Military from then until October 15, 2013. Since then, whether on the Council Advisory board, or as Foreign Affairs Director for The Black Hawks, Jakker has played a large role in PR for The Black Hawks. Additionally, Jakker has stayed active in raiding to this day, including in recent tag raids led by other hawks.

As an aside, Jakker never ceases to amaze me with his calmness, graciousness, and willingess to talk to anyone, at any time. If there's anyone who deserves the honor of being inducted this year, it's Jakker.

-Me, last year. That nomination will be renewed.

In addition, I'd like to nominate the following raiders:

Tom

Tom served as Director in Hydra COMMAND for several months. While that organization may be known now for being the home of oft-incompetent generals and ill-fated mergers, for a time, it was highly respected, especially in the defender-dominated power vacuum that followed DEN's collapse in April 2016. That is due to Tom, and no one else. He organized just about everything in Hydra, and it was his work that kept the org running like clockwork. He grew Hydra from a Gest-sponsored newb org to a gameplay force that rivaled The Black Hawks in terms of activity for many months in late 2016. He also served as a Sergeant in The Black Hawks, but that's not as important, in my opinion, as his participation in LWU and Lazarus. His work in Lazarus, along with Delegate Funkadelia and other cross-members with LWU, transformed the region into one of only two raider GCRs for about 6 months in 2017-2018.

Panzer Vier

Derps is more on the "tool-based" side of raiding for this proposal. She helped raiding immensely with her development of Deadeye and Spyglass in 2016, in the aftermath of DEN's collapse, and has continued to improve the tool's utility over the years. While she has never been the most active on the field, for a long time, she was the only person in the Black Hawks who would do operations at minor, which helped to train many recruits, and that's something commendable as well.

Note: it is a coincidence that these people are my parents.

[Scardino]

I nominate Jakker.

Jakker has led multiple operations as point or trigger for the Black Hawks, among which (excluding those mentioned in Security Council 112) is the recent operation on Esquarium (wherein his nation, Rediar, which is "Raider" in reverse, went unnoticed by defenders). In addition to this, he has led the Black Hawks for a long time, most notably as Field Marshal from November 24, 2011 to August 16, 2012, and as Head of Military from then until October 15, 2013. Since then, whether on the Council Advisory board, or as Foreign Affairs Director for The Black Hawks, Jakker has played a large role in PR for The Black Hawks. Additionally, Jakker has stayed active in raiding to this day, including in recent tag raids led by other hawks.

As an aside, Jakker never ceases to amaze me with his calmness, graciousness, and willingess to talk to anyone, at any time. If there's anyone who deserves the honor of being inducted this year, it's Jakker.

-Me, last year. That nomination will be renewed.

But, other than that, has he really done anything?

[Wabbitslayah]

-Me, last year. That nomination will be renewed.

But, other than that, has he really done anything?

He tried to infiltrate Osiris, was successful for a bit and then was caught.

[Devi Vytherin]

But, other than that, has he really done anything?

He tried to infiltrate Osiris, was successful for a bit and then was caught.

Yeah, that one ended up being a bit of a lemon.

[Cormactopia Prime]

He tried to infiltrate Osiris, was successful for a bit and then was caught.

Yeah, that one ended up being a bit of a lemon.

Thank you for this.

[Wabbitslayah]

Yeah, that one ended up being a bit of a lemon.

Thank you for this.

lol ikr?

[Lord Dominator]

I'll be giving my nominations later