NationStates

Thank you to everyone for their efforts with contributing nominations. The open nomination period is now closed. Check back in at the end of RaiderCon in early July to see the inductees.

In the meantime, if anyone still wants to provide additional information of any nominee, they may reach out to a judge. Judges will be beginning the reviewal process asap.

The inductees for this year's class to the Raiding Hall of Fame will be announced later this week. Before that, I wanted to provide an update regarding Gest's induction as it had been brought up previously. This year's judges had a conversation about it. When determining how to approach the situation, first we needed to figure out what to focus on. A player having nations DEATed or who was DOS should not be a deciding factor as not all players who have been deleted are the same. Especially in the earlier years, this was the outcome of many raiders. As far as predator usage, this should also not be a deciding factor of excluding/removing a player. With that said, both are factors to consider within a raiding player's full NS career.

Therefore, the potential decision in removing Gest from the Raiding Hall of Fame would be based on whether the rationale for his induction has been negated or overshadowed by actions that have hindered raiding. Some judges did convey the opinion that he should be removed based on that logic. There were a lot of points shared to consider. As I said before, removal/not to remove is a permanent decision in my eyes and therefore, I want to approach it with utmost care. From here, I will be continuing to chat with other players including current Hall of Famers to gain additional perspective. A final decision will be made at some point in the future.

Additional perspective regarding the fact that Gest should be excluded is unnecessary at this point. Of course, you're free to drag this on for as long as you like. I have a feeling he won't be excluded, since TBH has been overly forgiving when it comes to the seedier elements of raiderdom.

Ridersyl wrote:I have a feeling he won't be excluded, since TBH has been overly forgiving when it comes to the seedier elements of raiderdom.

Oh boy, I can't wait to see how those ebil hawks will try to dictate the decisions of, I dunno, the four judges in the panel who aren't TBH.

Ridersyl wrote:Additional perspective regarding the fact that Gest should be excluded is unnecessary at this point. Of course, you're free to drag this on for as long as you like. I have a feeling he won't be excluded, since TBH has been overly forgiving when it comes to the seedier elements of raiderdom.

This decision has nothing to do with TBH. While the Hall of Fame was set up by me, it has never been something that TBH has overseen. It is larger than any one organization and has involved the insight of several raiding players (and defenders for judges even).

Secondly, I'm not too sure where your opinion that TBH has been overly forgiven is based on.

I for one would be happy if Gest remains in the Hall and would respect the decision that the committee came to after much thoughtful deliberation.

EDIT: reading comprehension fail

Panzer Vier wrote:Oh boy, I can't wait to see how those ebil hawks will try to dictate the decisions of, I dunno, the four judges in the panel who aren't TBH.

Jakker himself said he'd be talking to other players and former hall of famers.

It's not in our hands as judges anymore. We discussed this issue quite extensively and I'm not sure any of us could suddenly provide additional insight.

Revall wrote:I for one am happy Gest remains in the Hall and respect the decision that the committee came to after much thoughtful deliberation.

I would suggest you read Jakker's post again - he hasn't reached a decision. I couldn't tell you where he plans to go but celebration from either side would premature at this time.

Panzer Vier wrote:Oh boy, I can't wait to see how those ebil hawks will try to dictate the decisions of, I dunno, the four judges in the panel who aren't TBH.

As one of the judges has clarified to you, it is now out of the hands of the judges and in the hands of Jakker and the inductees he speaks to. I dared to mention TBH because Jakker is a respectable figurehead of the organization and is involved in the ultimate decision here. At no point did I say, or even imply, that the Hawks are "ebil".

In other words, that's some weak and uninformed bullshit you posted, Panzer Vier.

Ridersyl wrote:

Panzer Vier wrote:Oh boy, I can't wait to see how those ebil hawks will try to dictate the decisions of, I dunno, the four judges in the panel who aren't TBH.

As one of the judges has clarified to you, it is now out of the hands of the judges and in the hands of Jakker and the inductees he speaks to. I dared to mention TBH because Jakker is a respectable figurehead of the organization and is involved in the ultimate decision here. At no point did I say, or even imply, that the Hawks are "ebil".

In other words, that's some weak and uninformed bullshit you posted, Panzer Vier.

But you did go out of your way to say, "I have a feeling he won't be excluded, since TBH has been overly forgiving when it comes to the seedier elements of raiderdom." Which again, I'm confused where you got this impression from.

Shizensky wrote:

Panzer Vier wrote:Oh boy, I can't wait to see how those ebil hawks will try to dictate the decisions of, I dunno, the four judges in the panel who aren't TBH.

Jakker himself said he'd be talking to other players and former hall of famers.

It's not in our hands as judges anymore. We discussed this issue quite extensively and I'm not sure any of us could suddenly provide additional insight.

Revall wrote:I for one am happy Gest remains in the Hall and respect the decision that the committee came to after much thoughtful deliberation.

I would suggest you read Jakker's post again - he hasn't reached a decision. I couldn't tell you where he plans to go but celebration from either side would premature at this time.

Wait, what? So the judges aren't actually deciding? Jakker is?

In which case this actually is entirely controlled by what TBH wants to do?

Jakker wrote:

Ridersyl wrote:
As one of the judges has clarified to you, it is now out of the hands of the judges and in the hands of Jakker and the inductees he speaks to. I dared to mention TBH because Jakker is a respectable figurehead of the organization and is involved in the ultimate decision here. At no point did I say, or even imply, that the Hawks are "ebil".

In other words, that's some weak and uninformed bullshit you posted, Panzer Vier.

But you did go out of your way to say, "I have a feeling he won't be excluded, since TBH has been overly forgiving when it comes to the seedier elements of raiderdom." Which again, I'm confused where you got this impression from.

I don't see how I went out of my way to say that, or how my expressed opinion justified PV's post.

I got that impression from TBH member statements to me personally regarding two cases where TBH was forgiving of widely unpopular players.

Consular wrote:

Shizensky wrote:Jakker himself said he'd be talking to other players and former hall of famers.

It's not in our hands as judges anymore. We discussed this issue quite extensively and I'm not sure any of us could suddenly provide additional insight.



I would suggest you read Jakker's post again - he hasn't reached a decision. I couldn't tell you where he plans to go but celebration from either side would premature at this time.

Wait, what? So the judges aren't actually deciding? Jakker is?

In which case this actually is entirely controlled by what TBH wants to do?

While it's flattering to think that I = TBH, this is not the case Secondly, I am facilitating the decision, but not making it all on my own. As I said, the judges made their opinions heard and that will be taken into account. Same with other players I will speak to. I'm still working through how the formal process will look, but I've handled every aspect of the HoF with professionalism and integrity. You can trust that this will be done in the same manner.

Ridersyl wrote:

Jakker wrote:
But you did go out of your way to say, "I have a feeling he won't be excluded, since TBH has been overly forgiving when it comes to the seedier elements of raiderdom." Which again, I'm confused where you got this impression from.

I don't see how I went out of my way to say that

I will repeat that TBH has never played any formal role in the Raiding Hall of Fame.

I would think it enough that the judges vote to remove them. Why do you alone make the decision? And why is this such a complicated issue?

Yeah, really, we should not trust the biased and dogmatic Jakker to make objective decisions. We all know how he always subverts the opinions of others to further his own goals. I say coup him before he starts rolling out the tanks!

Consular wrote:I would think it enough that the judges vote to remove them. Why do you alone make the decision? And why is this such a complicated issue?

Because not just the decision, but the rationale behind the decision impacts future inductees. There is a lot to consider as evident by the many questions and topics brought up by this year's judges. Questions like "Lets say we had an inductee than switched sides, destroyed their region, and systematically undid everything that got them nominated to begin with. Would we still want them in our hall of fame?" Furthermore, there were still questions of how to best approach the process of making the decision as well. I alone am not the one making the decision whether or not to remove. I simply decided to seek additional perspective.

As one of the judges for the 2015 Raider Hall of Fame class that includes Gest, I'm appalled that Gest is still in the Raider Hall of Fame. This should already have been decided in favor of his removal, and I completely understand the frustration of those who have been patiently waiting while this can continues to be kicked down the road. Again, as one of the judges for Gest's class, I'm in favor of his removal, and I urge Jakker to get on with it.

It isn't just that he used Predator; he is Predator. He is the face of cheating and the buck stops with him. He must be removed.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:As one of the judges for the 2015 Raider Hall of Fame class that includes Gest, I'm appalled that Gest is still in the Raider Hall of Fame. This should already have been decided in favor of his removal, and I completely understand the frustration of those who have been patiently waiting while this can continues to be kicked down the road. Again, as one of the judges for Gest's class, I'm in favor of his removal, and I urge Jakker to get on with it.

It isn't just that he used Predator; he is Predator. He is the face of cheating and the buck stops with him. He must be removed.

I think I was on the same panel and I too am in favor of his removal. I'd argue for a removal in a similar style to how TITO revoked Guy's Knighthood (In his place at the Hall of Heroes, there is an image of his statue being torn down (completely undeserved, by the way)). There should be a Gest in his spot of the raider HoF with a detailed explanation of why he was removed.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:As one of the judges for the 2015 Raider Hall of Fame class that includes Gest, I'm appalled that Gest is still in the Raider Hall of Fame. This should already have been decided in favor of his removal, and I completely understand the frustration of those who have been patiently waiting while this can continues to be kicked down the road. Again, as one of the judges for Gest's class, I'm in favor of his removal, and I urge Jakker to get on with it.

It's not something I am trying to push aside by any means. Perhaps I am putting too much weight into it, but I am just trying to ensure that everything is fleshed out. In the near future, I will have far more ability to prioritize this and ensure that an objective decision is made confidently with detailed rationale.

Jakker wrote:It's not something I am trying to push aside by any means. Perhaps I am putting too much weight into it, but I am just trying to ensure that everything is fleshed out. In the near future, I will have far more ability to prioritize this and ensure that an objective decision is made confidently with detailed rationale.

I didn't mean to sound accusatory. I know you're just trying to make sure it's done fairly and correctly, and I appreciate that, but it is taking a bit too long and I get people's frustration. It frustrates me too, even though I understand your perspective. Perhaps a decent way to go about this would be to convene a panel of all past judges who are still available (including this year's group) to decide the matter?

Cormactopia Prime wrote:

Jakker wrote:It's not something I am trying to push aside by any means. Perhaps I am putting too much weight into it, but I am just trying to ensure that everything is fleshed out. In the near future, I will have far more ability to prioritize this and ensure that an objective decision is made confidently with detailed rationale.

I didn't mean to sound accusatory. I know you're just trying to make sure it's done fairly and correctly, and I appreciate that, but it is taking a bit too long and I get people's frustration. It frustrates me too, even though I understand your perspective. Perhaps a decent way to go about this would be to convene a panel of all past judges who are still available (including this year's group) to decide the matter?

Yeah something to that effect was brought up when discussing the matter with this year's judges. Seems like a solid approach.

Another beauty pageant held by the savants....arguing over who gets to wear the tiara.

My look at how strong raiding has become.

Von Clausewitz wrote:Another beauty pageant held by the savants....arguing over who gets to wear the tiara.

My look at how strong raiding has become.

Damn straight son, I'm absolutely fucking gorgeous.

Hey hey hey, we all know who the true god of sex appeal in raiding is,