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The Grey Wardens | The Great Contest

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Escade
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Posts: 1019
Founded: Apr 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Escade » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:36 pm

Sylven wrote:
Escade wrote: This is what can be expected of the defender community now. An "any means necessary" approach.

Whatever beef you have with particular defenders or defending organizations, it would be appreciated if you kept your criticism to them not "the defender community" at large becuz like. No. Thx. If ur talkin OOC stuff like I think u r that's highkey rude when addressing such a broad smear of people like NS defenders... I certainly don't want any of your words on my face because I don't think they should be there!


Let me know when defenders from this "community" have addressed any of the very real concerns being discussed above by multiple people instead of defending bad behavior through outright support or silence. Here's what I believe - people post about the things that matter to them and so far I've only seen support for and doubling down on the bad behavior. You've chosen to jump into the fray, as it were, do let us know what your thoughts are.

Let me know also Sylven, "how highkey rude" the two reports that have stemmed this discussion are. Let me know when you have more awareness of the internal issues that have cropped up as well.


I'd also like to thank Eumaeus for both of their posts. I'm not familiar with you as a player but these were very well-written and commendable. I'm adding on or responding to some points that you made and also highlighting the sequence from your first to second post which covered I think the entire argument in a equitable way.

Eumaeus wrote:Before I say what I would like to say, there are a few disclaimers I would like to go through.

First, I am posting as individual player and not as a member of the Black Hawks. I’m not personally offended by anything in TGW’s reports and I have not discussed this matter with any members of the Black Hawks. My only interest in this thread is as an individual.

Second, IRL I work on a sexual assault hotline, and I want to make it clear that I do not approach discussions relating to sexual harassment lightly. Which brings me to my next disclaimer…

Third, while this is a discussion relating to sexual harassment, I want to make it absolutely crystal clear that I am not accusing anyone of sexually harassing anyone else. I am also not meaning to imply that the problem I am talking about is an attribute of TGW, but simply something I noticed amongst those defending these reports.

Lastly, while I think her statements were a bit too strongly worded, I think that Escade getting reported for trying to have a serious conversation is ridiculous. That being said, I think that URE’s statements have inflated the issue well beyond its reality and have entered the realm of personal attacks. While I think Roavin's actions are emblematic of the problem with this conversation, I don't think he's done anything as heinous as cyberbullying or harassment.

I have had a lot that I have wanted to say since this issue first popped up, but have held off on posting anything in hopes that the parties involved would be capable of having a productive conversation. It has become clear that this is not the case. This is a topic that is very important to me, and I have put a lot of thought into how this situation is being handled and how it made me feel. This morning I settled on an answer. I’m not angry, and I’m not offended. I’m disappointed.

From what I can tell this started off as a misunderstanding based off of generational differences. Members of the Grey Wardens who are members of an older generation have been using an update report theme for a while now that uses language that to them had no subversive connotations beyond condescendingly portraying themselves in a paternal relationship to the Black Hawks. Members of the Black Hawks, however, who are members of an younger generation have been feeling uncomfortable as a result of these reports, because to their generation the language in the reports was making them immediately think of the “yes, daddy” culture resulting from the sexualization of children and infantilization that our society has for some reason been pushing in the last couple years.

Maybe I’m being naive, especially considering the number of instances I’ve found from the past two years of members of TBH expressing discomfort with this, but I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that the people writing these “daddy” themed reports weren’t intending for them to be interpreted as sexual. After all, were I to assume that this was intentionally sexual, then I could not in good conscience describe this as anything but sexual harassment.

I don’t have much of a problem with the fact that TGW posted these reports, but what I am extremely disappointed in has been the reaction to criticism over them. Even if you think that this is a non-issue, the empathetic thing to do in this situation is to simply apologize and cease the behavior. Even if you think that this topic being brought up on a public forum is just an excuse to get bad publicity for TGW, the intelligent response would be to humor those trying to make you look bad, rather than by outright dismissing their concerns. It is an undeniable fact that there are sexual connotations to this language, whether you were aware of this previously or not, and upon learning of them giving a modest apology would be all that was necessary to save face. If someone had simply said “we’re sorry, we did not intend for this to be interpreted sexually, we will stop using this theme for our reports” that would have been the end of the conversation.

I could go through every argument that I have taken issue with in the past week, but I don’t think it would serve any sort of productive purpose. The only argument I have seen that I feel absolutely needs to be addressed is this: “the fact that this bothers TBH is what makes it an attractive theme”. This is not an unjustified argument under a lot of other conditions, but the fact that this scenario has to do with one side interpreting the other’s messages as sexual makes this an extremely questionable way of thinking about things. Again I’m not accusing anyone of actually doing anything wrong, but if you find enjoyment in the negative reaction that someone has to a statement with sexual connotations, and you know that these connotations are why they reacted negatively, then I would very seriously like you to take a moment from reading this and think about what that means about you as a person.

The only specific thing that I would like to call anyone out for is the update report that Roavin posted. You expect us to believe that the use of a word you were specifically asked to stop using in a report that included a condescending mock trigger warning was supposed to be a harmless reference? Even if that was the intention, I'm sure you can understand why it doesn't seem that way. It comes off as disrespectful, not only towards the players who asked you to stop but towards Reppy as well.

The reaction to Souls’ initial complaint can only be described as a hardy “lol, boys will be boys” and I’m appalled at how far people have been willing to stretch, bend over backwards, and dig in their heels to excuse and even encourage behavior that should have been changed the moment someone explained why it made them feel uncomfortable. This is the problem. Behavior like this, that excuses the sexualization of GP politics and dismisses genuine concerns brought up by members of the community as frivolous, makes the gameplay forum seem like a distinctly hostile environment. This is especially disheartening coming from members of the community who are supposed to occupy the moral high ground. I'm not rattling sabers. I believe that the tone of discussion in this thread and the muted response of the leaders of the Grey Wardens to these concerns is hurting this community. The fact that people are going after those who have called out this behavior is a typical quality of a boys’ club, specifically the reporting of Escade. This is especially eyebrow raising considering the fact that the first person to imply that this could be interpreted as “sexual harassment” was a fucking forum administrator. If you were really concerned about the legal consequences then you would change your behavior. If you need to be concerned about the legal consequences then you probably should change your behavior.

I don't expect this post to cause any sort of change. I doubt it will even result in a conversation. All I am asking for is a little introspection. Think about what tolerance of this behavior will teach younger players. Think about the meaning that this has for the female members of our community. Think about the message that this discussion sends to players in vulnerable situations. How can they trust us to handle the serious situations if this is how we handle the lesser ones?


I mean we know why they didn't report Reppy :roll:

Eumaeus wrote:
Vincent Drake wrote:-snip-

I have thought for a while about how I wanted to respond, especially given that most of the counterpoints you have presented are, by your own admission, events that I cannot reasonably be expected to argue against. That itself is disappointing: that you’ve chosen to interpret my words as arguments.

I have received run downs on the events you are referencing from a few sources, and the details that are not present in your descriptions, whether this be through omission or ignorance, seem to invalidate much of what you are saying. But that is all I have to say on those matters; I will not respond defensively over events I was not a party to or to counter arguments that do not apply to my own words. Thus I will do you the service of pretending that your account of events and their severity is accurate. Even then, when every single one of the Black Hawks’ previous complaints is presumed trivial, your behavior still is not justified.

What I will discuss is your premise, and how you seem gleefully unaware that it is a part of the exact problem I outlined in my initial post. Your argument is that the Black Hawks have been bringing up trivial matters over the course of the past several years, and that the Grey Wardens as an institution have become desensitized to them. Crying wolf, as you say. What concerns me about this situation is how it seems that everyone but the Grey Wardens themselves have realized pretty quickly how serious this incident is. The complaints are not only from the Black Hawks anymore. When a forum administrator describes your behavior as carrying “certain sexual connotations, particularly of the sexual harassment flavoring…”, it is not the shepherd boy crying wolf anymore, but the shepherd’s master. I am not sure which is more concerning, that the villagers in this fable seem to have ignored the shepherd masters’ warning as well or that they could not see the wolf in the pasture to begin with. And this was not a wolf in sheep’s clothing , mind you, this was a wolf that you willfully refused to look for. The earliest instance I have found of someone articulating a sexual connotation to TGW’s use of the word “daddy” is from 2017. That is almost two years of the boy crying wolf for real without the villagers ever looking in his direction.

To put it bluntly, your response is of the same ilk as those who dismiss sexual assault allegations because some people file false claims, despite studies showing that false allegations of this crime are no more prevalent than those for any other crime. You willfully chose to ignore genuine concerns, whether you thought you were justified at the time or not, and are now trying to spin the blame onto those who brought them up in lieu of admitting any sort of institutional responsibility.

And that is what you are trying to do. You are failing to convince me. The concept that the members of a region represent it through their actions and through their words is an intrinsic aspect of Gameplay politics. You adhered to this concept when you clumped my words and actions together with the rest of the Black Hawks’, despite my explicit statement that my membership there was not a factor in my feelings on this matter. Outright denying responsibility for your own soldier’s actions reflects poorly on your leadership.

I am not arguing with you, but confronting you with reality, at least as I experience it. If I were trying to argue then I would address why I think Escade is clearly not making an accusation anymore than Reploid Production is. But I won’t, because my goal is not to convince you of anything. Only you can choose to reevaluate reality as you experience it.

I do not think that you, Roavin, or the Grey Wardens are bad people; in fact, I would like to believe the opposite, and apologize if anything I said in my original post came off as a character attack. I think you made a series of poor decisions, which has now put you in a difficult position. The way out of this position that saves you the most face still involves you losing face, and you are lashing out while fighting to find another way. I empathize with your situation, and wish you the best of luck in resolving it.


I wrote this opinion piece because of a series of different issues however it continues to be applicable here as well because NationStates is NationStates.


Actually I just spoilered my post because TGW will next report me for quoting lengthy quotes or something else ridiculous. Please read Eumaeus' posts for a very equitable way to look at this situation.
Last edited by Escade on Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Sylven
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Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Sylven » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:50 pm

Reploid Productions already replied to this thread and I feel confident that the mods will deal with any further OOC issues that arise, so I don't really feel like that's something I need to address.

I was just wondering if you could not say that the entire defending community should be expected to have an any means necessary approach (implying that we would do any OOC nastiness if it helped us get ahead in-game) because I don't think I've really done anything OOC evil and so it seems odd to have that kind of thing thrown at me and others who aren't associated with this affair just because of our game ideology.

Like just because UCRs have done weird things, does that mean UCRs as a community should all be expected to be doing weird things? c.c I don't think so...
Last edited by Sylven on Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vincent Drake
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vincent Drake » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:47 pm

Escade wrote:
This is what can be expected of the defender community now. An "any means necessary" approach.


This is completely out of line.
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Roavin
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Roavin » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:55 am

Eumaeus wrote:-snip-


I certainly appreciate the calm and reasonable contributions you've made to this topic, and I'm quite cognizant of what you're saying. However, there is one particular thing about this that isn't said much (and is something you couldn't know), and it's something I touched upon a few days ago:

Roavin wrote:Sure, but consider the individual that was taking point on this issue, who is and has been a serial bad faith actor towards TGW and surroundings since at least early 2017. The way this was brought up is just another example of the same - if there is an actual OOC-level issue concerning a region in good standing (and TGW is such a region), the first place to bring it up would be in a more discreet capacity (DM with leadership), rather than immediately plastering it over GP. The reason that this has not been done is because of a lie by that same individual that TGW does not respond in good faith to such outreach, and because of complicit silence by other high-ranking TBH members that know better. While I'm not in TGW leadership anymore, I'm quite certain that such contact would still be taken as seriously as it was when I was there.


Regardless of whether or not things were handled perfectly, the issue here is that TGW leadership (and separately myself) are stuck between a rock and a hard place because of that same individual. Had things gone the "normal" way, TBH would have reached out to TGW and said "hey the daddy thing's been causing issues, can we talk", to which TGW would have replied something like "no ill-intent there but yeah we get it" and things would have been fine. However, this cannot happen anymore due to the aforementioned lie.

Here's how things happens now. Things aren't simply dealt with in a reasonable manner anymore because of the lie, and therefore get aired in public. The liar does this very effectively, using well-articulated appeals to emotion and appeals to authority to help drive the rhetoric, and when it is mentioned that this is not how things should be handled, the liar once again refers to that lie as a justification for the public airing. It should come as no surprise that TGW and some others (including myself as former TGW First Warden) react negatively, sometimes viscerally so, to any thing of this sort that has come up time and time and time again in the past two years ever since the lie was first uttered.

This is not the only lie the liar has uttered, of course.

Consider the NSWF, now defunct over an incident over a ban of an individual that was falsely accused of harassment/blackmail/stalking. The accuser in this incident has since been widely ostracized for, among other reasons, this same sort of behavior, while the accused has gone on to become a very well-respected GCR Delegate. The liar's role here was as an organizer for NSWF at the time, and indeed to this day remains the only NSWF organizer that has yet to state that the ban was a mistake and continues to insist that it was appropriate despite being wholly debunked, claiming the existance of evidence nobody has or can see.

Or consider another story a bit more personal to me, where the liar quite publicly claimed having heard from multiple people (that could not be named, of course) that I was baiting and trying to engage in bad faith ... however, that couldn't be true because there was exactly one person I was talking to about it, a person relatively close to the liar who was very sincerely trying to mediate, who I had told that I admittedly baited a bit but would really like to clear things up in good faith. Of course, in the public place where the liar claimed this, it was my word against the liar's word, and the liar has undeservedly built an impeccable reputation over the years that facilitates this.

I could go on and on and on. To summarize, the liar built a good reputation, then utilized strategic lies to justify the public airing of things usually not aired in public (i.e. OOC issues), then aired these in public in PR-effective ways to further the liar's goals within the context of the game. (and then I am told to "keep it IC" lol)

To address your point: I concede that I could have handled it better, for example by first listening and asking around rather than immediately doubling down when it was first brought up two weeks ago. I'm absolutely certain, however, that I would have not reacted that way to even a public post of that form by anybody else, because quite frankly, it's getting very hard to stay completely IC and avoid reacting in visceral ways after ~2.5 years of the liar's malicious OOC-based tactics being thrown at myself and others.

I'm only human, and 2.5 years is a very long time.
Last edited by Roavin on Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:00 am, edited 5 times in total.
RoavinPrime Minister of the South Pacific

"Not to mention TSP are some democracy wankers
and democracy wanking is peak defender
" — Tim

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Armaros
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Armaros » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:08 am

Escade wrote:This is what can be expected of the defender community now. An "any means necessary" approach.

Just going to go ahead and call you out on this. That certain individuals within TGW behave petty and childish, does not mean that the whole of defending agrees. For someone who complains about blurring OOC/IC lines as much as you do, this “this can be expected of all of defending” nonsense, raised over something that made people OOC uncomfortable, is coming dangerously close to that line.
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Reventus Koth
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Reventus Koth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:16 am

Roavin wrote:Or consider another story a bit more personal to me, where the liar quite publicly claimed having heard from multiple people (that could not be named, of course) that I was baiting and trying to engage in bad faith ... however, that couldn't be true because there was exactly one person I was talking to about it, a person relatively close to the liar who was very sincerely trying to mediate, who I had told that I admittedly baited a bit but would really like to clear things up in good faith. Of course, in the public place where the liar claimed this, it was my word against the liar's word, and the liar has undeservedly built an impeccable reputation over the years that facilitates this.

Ugh, did you really have to invoke me here? To be clear to the peanut gallery observing this unnecessary smoke and mirrors act, the "exactly one person" here is me and the "liar" is Souls, obviously.

It's not rocket science, Roav. Regardless of your sincerity in wanting to resolve things after the fact ("good faith"), the fact of the matter is that you were fishing, with your chosen target of the time being the same one you just lovingly put back in your scope in this odd tantrum of a post. The baiting was done in bad faith, pretty much by definition. It would not have been inaccurate for Souls to have described it as such.

Did Souls become very unwilling to bury the hatchet with you upon learning that you were baiting him on the forum? Yeah, and we can talk about how unreasonable that reaction was until we're blue in the face, but ultimately that doesn't change the fact that you were, as I can only assume you are now, lopsidedly targeting Souls in bad faith.

That's all I'm going to comment on in this thread, and only because I was brought into it. If I were to make a suggestion, I'd open your eyes to all the other people, many of which have no love lost for Souls, making their voices heard here. The idea that these folks have been brainwashed by some PR campaign by Souls is laughable at best and a cause to worry for you at worst.
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The Notorious Mad Jack
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:35 am

Roavin wrote:Had things gone the "normal" way, TBH would have reached out to TGW and said "hey the daddy thing's been causing issues, can we talk", to which TGW would have replied something like "no ill-intent there but yeah we get it" and things would have been fine.

Considering who the leadership and prominent members of TGW are, can I be the first to register mirth at this statement?
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Roavin
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Roavin » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:24 am

Reventus Koth wrote:It's not rocket science, Roav. Regardless of your sincerity in wanting to resolve things after the fact ("good faith"), the fact of the matter is that you were fishing, with your chosen target of the time being the same one you just lovingly put back in your scope in this odd tantrum of a post. The baiting was done in bad faith, pretty much by definition. It would not have been inaccurate for Souls to have described it as such.


Sure, I'll grant you that, but even then you were still literally the only one I had talked to about it and could therefore have known anything about my thought process or any of that, which makes the replies in public outright lies.

Since I just looked it up again to check my memory, let's all see what Souls said:

"You were blocked, roavin, becuase you started making it clear to people offsite that [...]"

Referring to multiple people. After I said that I had only talked to Koth, the reply was:

"Funny, I wasn't talking about Koth."

And as if he knew what I was going to ask next:

"But regardless, I'm not going to paste in you saying otherwise, because I have respect for the people that did talk to me."

Of course the people can't be named. Surprise.

"On the other hand, I have reason to believe that this continues to be an utter farce, that he's acting in bad faith, and others have agreed with that after speaking to both"

Once again the plural, implying multiple people that are not Koth.

"After you've just further demonstrated that you're willing to lie in public about what you've said and to whom, to try and make a point and make me out as bad? Yeah, no thanks."

My claim that I only had a conversation about it with you is, by its very nature, not verifyable, but it is falsifiable, ergo the burden of proof is not on me but rather the accuser. For reference, the conversation that the above snippets are sourced from began on March 18, 2018 7:49 pm Central European Time.

Reventus Koth wrote:That's all I'm going to comment on in this thread, and only because I was brought into it. If I were to make a suggestion, I'd open your eyes to all the other people, many of which have no love lost for Souls, making their voices heard here. The idea that these folks have been brainwashed by some PR campaign by Souls is laughable at best and a cause to worry for you at worst.


I probably should have clarified a bit more. The reputation comment was not meant universally, but rather with regards to specifically these sorts of matters amongst the major regions in good standing.



Anyway it has been suggested to me that I take a step back from this particular subject for various reasons and that's probably quite a reasonable suggestion. My point has been made anyway, and I don't seriously think anything will change because of it anyway. Onward to another 2.5 years of the same fucking song and dance!


The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
Roavin wrote:Had things gone the "normal" way, TBH would have reached out to TGW and said "hey the daddy thing's been causing issues, can we talk", to which TGW would have replied something like "no ill-intent there but yeah we get it" and things would have been fine.

Considering who the leadership and prominent members of TGW are, can I be the first to register mirth at this statement?


You're the first and I suspect there won't be that many more, considering that most current and former commanders have been involved in community safety matters in some form or another, so I (for one) am quite confused what you're referring to.
RoavinPrime Minister of the South Pacific

"Not to mention TSP are some democracy wankers
and democracy wanking is peak defender
" — Tim

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Tim-Opolis
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Warden Report - Assorted Happenings

Postby Tim-Opolis » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:05 pm

Indo-Malaysia wrote:... I just wanted to read a shitpost...

This Warden Report is dedicated to Indo-Malaysia, who just wanted to read a shitpost.





Image
Even In These Quiet Times, We Are Watching





Warden Commander's Journal - 1st of Parvulis

Major Update

Regions Defended: 1

The Nationstates Commonwealth

Operations Supported

Christs Church

Wardens Present

Chamberlain Haku
Senior Warden Blightbane

Allies Present

SPSF Heliseum
Tupelope




Minor Update

Regions Detagged: 20

Kola
Megalosian Empire
0siris
Ironcrossbandito
The Ancap Empire
Scyvirn
Wandersee
The Zennenteze Reserve
The Unification Of Rogue States
2b2t
Kyratian States
Concert Of Europe
Azkadia
Storm Nation
Apple Computer
Nationalistan
Kazandouria
Patriotia
We Came Here To Get Away From You
Luaeke


Wardens Present

Commander Merlin
Senior Warden Blightbane
Senior Warden Pyrohy

Allies Present

SPSF Heliseum
RRA Frattastan


"In Peace, Vigilance" might sound good on paper, but goddamn is it boring. Clean-up patrol after clean-up patrol after clean-up patrol. With Summer's Lull driving most Darkspawn back into the Deep Roads, and many Wardens to more pressing matters such as feasting and merriment while they have time, those remaining trudge through charred village after charred village. While we restore what we can, it's a truly dreary existence. At least the Wardens in the great cities are able to feed themselves at large and sink into comfortable beds, while those of us on the ground get excited when we catch a damn rabbit for dinner.

Today we cleaned out twenty villages, helping the civilians restore normal life as best as we could. There really isn't much left for these people in the backwaters of Ferelden, where supplies are scarce and local leadership has all but died out. Those who remain are typically quiet hermits, going about the day and dealing with the few issues that they might have to answer to. Largely we simply clean out the corpses, tear down what traces of darkspawn that we can, and clear out. As we were heading over to support a local garrison at Christs Church, we were able to intercept a band of roaming bandits that was angling for a small raid. At least that offered some excitement for the day, but I doubt it'll get the smell of charred villager out of my lungs. Bandits aren't why we're here anyway, and the longer we go without seeing darkspawn the more we wonder why we continue to patrol these outer lands.




Warden Commander's Journal - 2nd of Parvulis

Major Update

Regions Defended: 3

The Wor1d
Subsaharan Asia
North Eastern Asia

Wardens Present

Chamberlain Haku
Commander Merlin
Senior Warden Blightbane
Senior Warden Atlantica

Ally

TITO Twobagger




Minor Update

Regions Defended: 10

Not Corrupt Land
123
The Incorporated States Of Power
The United Tacos Of El Paso
Gamers United Under Ricardo
Unnamed Region
The United Front Of Commonhealth
Anti Furry Pact
The Federative
Kyratian States

Regions Detagged: 3

Terrater
Darkstaria
Dawn of Civilization Roleplay

Wardens Present

Chamberlain Haku
Commander Tim
Commander Merlin
Senior Warden Blightbane
Senior Warden Pyrohy

Ally

RRA Frattastan


Finally, a reported Darkspawn sighting! I know we shouldn't be thrilled at their presence, given the danger they face to the people out in these parts, but it's a great feeling to be able to actually do the job you enlisted to do. You don't join the Grey Wardens to deal with bandits and clean-up duty, but to fight the great fight against an enemy that threatens to ruin this world. That is why we take the oath, why we fight relentlessly until we hear our Calling, and even then descend into the Deep Roads to end as many Darkspawn as we can before our time to meet The Maker comes. Twice the patrols today came across the enemy; first in a small number and later then under a larger force. While we suspect the initial forray was a scouting party, high winds and storms obstructed visibility and speed on this night. The three villages we were able to get to, however, were successfully defended from the darkspawn forces.

Thankfully, the next day's events almost certainly confirmed our theories as the Darkspawn once again re-materialized in the form of a band of Shrieks tearing across the Wastes. In what was a brief yet thrilling battle, with the majority of villages and regions that they attempted to enter being protected from their onslaught. While a few slipped through, the blades of Wardens flashed across the battlefield as our foes fell and rapidly retreated back to their underground lairs. Ten more Darkspawn targets were protected, and on our way back to the camp we quickly cleaned up three more camps of survivors from a past Genlock patrol.




Warden Commander's Journal - 3rd of Parvulis

Major Update

Regions Defended: 2

Bethanie
Northern Federation of the Burning Star

Operation Supported

Christs Church

Wardens Present

Chamberlain Haku
Senior Warden Blightbane

Allies

SPSF Heliseum
TITO Twobagger




Minor Update

Region Liberated

Carne de Vitello

Regions Detagged: 4

Herd United
Shizei
The Continental Funiverse
Peace and Love

Wardens Present

Chamberlain Haku
Commander Tim
Commander Merlin
Senior Warden Pyrohy
Recruit Tow Mirdala

Allies

RRA Frattastan
SPSF Nakari


Slow day today. The night patrol caught a couple bandits on their way to the usual support in Christ Church, but it was ultimately a pretty quiet affair. I managed to find an abandoned camp with a stash of Rum that we passed around the campfire, which raised spirits significantly. Blightbane clames he heard Haku even break into song at one point, but I'll believe it when I hear it with my my own two years. It certainly was a festive attitude, however, still in high spirits from the past battles.

Weisshaupt sent us a new recruit as well; a passionate foreigner new to Ferelden. We took him on the mid-day patrol, where we were clearing out a small occupation problem, and he showed some promise. We'll certainly need to work on his timing and bladework, but there's a chance for a solid Warden to be born from his experiences. Time will tell what occurs once he gathers his first vial of Darkspawn blood, and if the Joining is to go well for him. It was good to keep up to speed, however, and put in another good shift on the battlefield. So much time in the cities made me a bit out of shape.




Easter Egg Find: I stuffed this report full of a ton of references to ongoings and events from during update. If you can find them all I'll give you some NS Silver.




In War, Victory.
In Peace, Vigilance.
In Death, Sacrifice
Last edited by Tim-Opolis on Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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[11:16:10] <@Koth> tim is a loose cannon cop on the edge who doesn't play by the rules

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Blight-Bane
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Postby Blight-Bane » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:57 pm

Dammit Tim, you forgot to add me for the 2nd of Parvulis minor update. I know I'm pretty quiet during update, but dayum. *shakes fist at cloud and wanders off grumbling about Warden senility*

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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:09 pm

Blight-Bane wrote:Dammit Tim, you forgot to add me for the 2nd of Parvulis minor update. I know I'm pretty quiet during update, but dayum. *shakes fist at cloud and wanders off grumbling about Warden senility*

Shit, my bad! Should be fixed now :)
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[11:16:10] <@Koth> tim is a loose cannon cop on the edge who doesn't play by the rules

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Escade
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Postby Escade » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:44 pm

Sylven wrote:Reploid Productions already replied to this thread and I feel confident that the mods will deal with any further OOC issues that arise, so I don't really feel like that's something I need to address.

I was just wondering if you could not say that the entire defending community should be expected to have an any means necessary approach (implying that we would do any OOC nastiness if it helped us get ahead in-game) because I don't think I've really done anything OOC evil and so it seems odd to have that kind of thing thrown at me and others who aren't associated with this affair just because of our game ideology.

Like just because UCRs have done weird things, does that mean UCRs as a community should all be expected to be doing weird things? c.c I don't think so...


So first let me apologize because you are right. TGW is not the defender community. XKI is a member of the defender community and does not partake in the GP nonsense or the spying and other unsavory shit that TGW has tried to make the norm. I'm not sure which group (or maybe another independent one that's not on the GP forums) you belong to but I apologize for lumping you all in together. That doesn't of course absolve you of responding to this issue, as player, in saying something more than, "we are not like that." Who is we? What organization are you representing here?

Also, you are not Reppy. Reppy's response which has been oft-quoted was rejected by TGW members who chose to report me for basically continuing her point or trying to explain it further. Again silence is assent with the status quo so either you agree with TGW's stance or you disagree. It's not that hard to form and clearly state an opinion.

Reppy's post (for reference) along with Cormac's:

Reploid Productions wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:Let me just copy what I said in the NSGP server as an addendum to what I said yesterday, because I think I was being somewhat unfair to TBH's concerns:


Essentially, this.

Even if its not being intended in such a manner, the "daddy" joke carries certain sexual connotations, particularly of the sexual harassment flavoring and especially for female players who have quite likely had to deal with some flavor of it IRL where it is anything but harmless or funny. [b]It really does need to stop, I know you guys are plenty creative enough that you can find ways to throw shade at your gameplay rivals that doesn't leave participants and bystanders feeling uncomfortable in that sort of "creeper being creepy" sort of way.

The fact that the response to basically "Guys, seriously, this isn't funny anymore and it's really kinda creepy/uncomfortable, please stop." seems to have been so far "Lawl, deal with it." is seriously disappointing.[/b]

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I'm interested in what Sylven Razedusk think about the the repeated use of "Daddy" to refer to an assumed relationship with raiders in TGW reports after repeatedly being told to stop. Since Souls is a sore topic for most people due to his own reputation (which does not negate his point although perhaps people shouldn't ask him to represent themselves) why don't you pick another TBH member.

I have a specific one in mind when thinking, "How absolutely effing gross that grown nasty men feel like creating a relationship of "Daddy" between themselves and this teen girl in high school." Then, when asked to knock it off (by several people in a calm way) they double down on it, mock Reppy's point of view with a second report, and use further language to dive deep into misogyny.

Furthermore, this isn't the first time Vinny and others have tried to hide, protect, or ignore this kind of behavior. They keep repeating this nonsense about "if you had only talked to us about this in private." Nope. Several people tried to say, "quit doing it for this reason." The response was to reject that completely and pretend to be long-suffering victims of TBH's alleged machinations. "Boohoo, they didn't let us call them darkspawn or hagfish or their "daddies." We are so the victims in this situation bc "freedom of speech." Reminds me of the Brett Stephens bedbug situation which I elucidated in an earlier post.

I'm amused that any member of TGW who is okay with the "daddy" report has the gall to report me for anything. Oh let me use some classic TGW responses, "Lulzy fratboi fun izz me having fake drunk post...." or "If they had only talked to me privately we could have sorted this out." Or should I try, "I am actually the victim in this situation because once Souls was like so so wrong...," oh effsauce I can't keep this nonsense up. You aren't victims, stop playing that game - it's sickening.

You can't use 3 to 100 to 1000 words in a game report? There are about 171, 476 words in the English language alone. Maybe try something that is creative and doesn't harm anyone or make them feel uncomfortable. Pokemon, pie, pi, puns the list could go on (and without any sexualized connotations either).

You should have apologized and moved on like several people recommended. Instead you played the same cards you have for your enemies who you don't see as people. Unfortunately, there are people who are cowed by these tactics. And then there are the people who aren't.

Vincent Drake wrote:
Escade wrote:
This is what can be expected of the defender community now. An "any means necessary" approach.


This is completely out of line.


I suggest you go through your logs. You brought up a concern that I had no awareness of regarding Lazarus jumpers. You could search it using "Laz jumpers." That's only the first example but let's start there. Then I have a second, then I have a third. And so forth. Don't worry I screencapped it for posterity. If you don't want things brought out publicly perhaps you shouldn't double down on that nonsense publicly.
Last edited by Escade on Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Altmoras
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Postby Altmoras » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:10 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Indo-Malaysia wrote:... I just wanted to read a shitpost...

This Warden Report is dedicated to Indo-Malaysia, who just wanted to read a shitpost.



That wasn't a very shitty post though. It was quite good in fact. I guess you'll have to make another attempt later Tim.
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Vincent Drake
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Postby Vincent Drake » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:38 pm

I suggest you go through your logs. You brought up a concern that I had no awareness of regarding Lazarus jumpers. You could search it using "Laz jumpers." That's only the first example but let's start there. Then I have a second, then I have a third. And so forth. Don't worry I screencapped it for posterity. If you don't want things brought out publicly perhaps you shouldn't double down on that nonsense publicly.


I actually, genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. Laz jumpers? I searched that term in every channel and server I'm in, public and private, and the forum here, with zero results. You're sure you have the right person? I really, really can't figure out what this is, especially considering that I had and never have had involvement in Lazarus affairs, so I'd be happy to see it. And the 2nd, and the 3rd, and so forth. I am human, I make mistakes, I want to see whatever this thing is so I can apologize for it if it was out of line. The time to have brought that up was at the time it happened, but it's never too late to try and make amends for past speech. Please just tell me what it is because I can't find this anywhere.
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Escade
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Postby Escade » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:45 pm

Vincent Drake wrote:
I suggest you go through your logs. You brought up a concern that I had no awareness of regarding Lazarus jumpers. You could search it using "Laz jumpers." That's only the first example but let's start there. Then I have a second, then I have a third. And so forth. Don't worry I screencapped it for posterity. If you don't want things brought out publicly perhaps you shouldn't double down on that nonsense publicly.


I actually, genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. Laz jumpers? I searched that term in every channel and server I'm in, public and private, and the forum here, with zero results. You're sure you have the right person? I really, really can't figure out what this is, especially considering that I had and never have had involvement in Lazarus affairs, so I'd be happy to see it. And the 2nd, and the 3rd, and so forth. I am human, I make mistakes, I want to see whatever this thing is so I can apologize for it if it was out of line. The time to have brought that up was at the time it happened, but it's never too late to try and make amends for past speech. Please just tell me what it is because I can't find this anywhere.


Cool story bro, since you approached me about the issue did you consider checking your DM convos with me? I try not to play this R\D game of throwing logs\spying on servers where personal info is shared out and sniping each other for "points." So I'm not dropping logs here unless well I guess unless I think that this issue is going to repeat itself. And you can do better than that by looking at how the series of logs (and if you really can't find them, feel free to ask) coupled with the latest very public incident appear to show a disturbing pattern.

Maybe instead of reacting the way you did to someone who's played for your team you could have responded in a more graceful and responsible manner. We're the adults in the situation, if we can't set the examples then the new kids have nothing better to build on.

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Vincent Drake
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Postby Vincent Drake » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:05 pm

I can't DM you...you either unfriended me or blocked me because I used to be able to and now get the Clyde bot error message.

Edit: I found the "Laz jumper" log...and it's IC. The log is about how we didn't want Unibot back in defending - we didn't want to work with Unibot for a lib attempt on Lazarus. I specifically said "without the OOC considerations, it would ruin the defending community". The part with the Laz jumpers involves negative remarks I made about his IC leadership abilities.

This post is harmless - You can disagree about Unibot's ego vs community-minded approaches, whether he is overly controlling vs collaborative, and whether he has a concept of op sec. There are very good cases to back my opinions which is why I hold said opinions. Since Uni is such a divisive figure in defending, welcoming him back would have caused people to leave and not work with us. The harmony we have between orgs in Libcord would be at risk. That is what I meant by "ruining the defender community".

This is NOT the same as saying that the defender community is willing to use "any means necessary". Any means necessary could include things like forum destruction, multis, recruiting shunned people, raiding Discord servers, hacking accounts, all manner of rule breaking and illegal activity. That's OOC and that crosses the line.

Edit 2: I also want to clarify that "crosses the line" doesn't equate to actionable. I can't report the comment, it doesn't break any forum rules...it's just unacceptable to say, at least with the broad scope of the whole defender community. The only reason I had to include you in the report was because you said our actions amounted to harassment. Whether they actually do or not isn't the issue, the forum rules prohibit saying that in that way, you have to take it to Moderation for Moderation to decide. I consider you a friend and am sad if you chose to unfriend/block me. There is nothing personal in the decision to report, it's just what the rules require when faced with that kind of accusation in public.
Last edited by Vincent Drake on Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sylven
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Postby Sylven » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:39 pm

Escade wrote:I'm not sure which group (or maybe another independent one that's not on the GP forums) you belong to but I apologize for lumping you all in together. That doesn't of course absolve you of responding to this issue, as player, in saying something more than, "we are not like that."


I as a player have the responsibility to personally condemn every on-site OOC offence I see even if I know moderators are already aware of and have addressed it?

Anyway, thanks a bunch for cleaning up your accusations so I'm not in them. Peace!
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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:44 pm

I love putting a lot of effort into an actual high quality post, and then having petty nonsense drown it out. :(
Last edited by Tim-Opolis on Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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[11:16:10] <@Koth> tim is a loose cannon cop on the edge who doesn't play by the rules

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Sylven
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Postby Sylven » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:50 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:I love putting a lot of effort into an actual high quality post, and then having petty nonsense drown it out. :(

I was thinking about saying how I almost never read RP but that I read the entire report and loved how you like used the beautiful styles of RP but twisted in actual GP stuff that I care about. v.v

But I felt like stuff was too serious in the air and that would seem weird. Eeeeep.
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Escade
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Postby Escade » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:51 pm

Vincent Drake wrote:I can't DM you...you either unfriended me or blocked me because I used to be able to and now get the Clyde bot error message.

Edit: I found the "Laz jumper" log...and it's IC. The log is about how we didn't want Unibot back in defending - we didn't want to work with Unibot for a lib attempt on Lazarus. I specifically said "without the OOC considerations, it would ruin the defending community". The part with the Laz jumpers involves negative remarks I made about his IC leadership abilities.

This post is harmless - You can disagree about Unibot's ego vs community-minded approaches, whether he is overly controlling vs collaborative, and whether he has a concept of op sec. There are very good cases to back my opinions which is why I hold said opinions. Since Uni is such a divisive figure in defending, welcoming him back would have caused people to leave and not work with us. The harmony we have between orgs in Libcord would be at risk. That is what I meant by "ruining the defender community".

This is NOT the same as saying that the defender community is willing to use "any means necessary". Any means necessary could include things like forum destruction, multis, recruiting shunned people, raiding Discord servers, hacking accounts, all manner of rule breaking and illegal activity. That's OOC and that crosses the line.

Edit 2: I also want to clarify that "crosses the line" doesn't equate to actionable. I can't report the comment, it doesn't break any forum rules...it's just unacceptable to say, at least with the broad scope of the whole defender community. The only reason I had to include you in the report was because you said our actions amounted to harassment. Whether they actually do or not isn't the issue, the forum rules prohibit saying that in that way, you have to take it to Moderation for Moderation to decide. I consider you a friend and am sad if you chose to unfriend/block me. There is nothing personal in the decision to report, it's just what the rules require when faced with that kind of accusation in public.


"This post is harmless," is funny considering how much you pushed it at that time.

When I tried to DM you it says we aren't in any shared server etc. I've defriended most players that I don't regularly speak to or have some need to work with (and left most group chats) some time ago which included you and the majority of NSers. It's a personal choice based on trying to disengage but here we are so it's obviously not working. I also reduced my server count to 12 (and friend count to very low). Don't take it personally or assume it had anything to do with this, it's been some time. Actually, we are in a group DM together still I believe and I posted a message there. I'd prefer it to be a group DM so we can probably find a mutual friend.

Please don't tell me your "civic duty" about "actionable" anything because we have seen you not take action in so many situations that it's pretty funny what you choose to bury your head in the sand about. We also know that some players are really good at getting around the lines of "actionable" while others are not as clever. I'm waiting for the moderator response but in either case I believe once a player used the logic, "worth it because it was honest" to justify things. :shrug:

And responding to your point, Unibot a figure known for a particular situation related to some of the discussion around this current one was used to recruit jumpers for Lazarus. There is a reason that player is banned. It's why I and others decided to withdraw from that battle (as stated in those logs). My only mistake in that was believing it was impossible that a certain player would actively use that player for their own purposes and you are the one who stated that. That is what "any means necessary" begins and it continues when a player that the larger community has determined to be banned from them for good reason is used to indoctrinate new players. That's bad behavior, that shouldn't happen. There was a reason you found this to be destructive of the defender community and that you not call it harmless is again a sign of backtracking.

That isn't the first and last of a series of bad behaviors that shouldn't happen and that left unchecked have in part led to this culture right now. For the sake of protecting individual players probably best to use a group DM.

Sylven wrote:
Escade wrote:I'm not sure which group (or maybe another independent one that's not on the GP forums) you belong to but I apologize for lumping you all in together. That doesn't of course absolve you of responding to this issue, as player, in saying something more than, "we are not like that."


I as a player have the responsibility to personally condemn every on-site OOC offence I see even if I know moderators are already aware of and have addressed it?

Anyway, thanks a bunch for cleaning up your accusations so I'm not in them. Peace!


So you didn't answer the question, what defender group or org are you representing as "we?" Is it TGW? Or? To repeat: silence is a form of assent. When you as a "defender" who speaks for "we" refuse to clarify your position (and you affiliation oddly enough) what do you think you're doing?

To clarify, since this seems like the hard part for you, do you agree with Reppy's post (which I did not perceive as a moderator post but as a personal response) that I quoted above and can requote? It's a very simple question that determines if you and the "we" have a stance that isn't "this is just petty nonsense" which actually devalues the attempt to say, "stop this behavior because it's wrong and gain some introspection."

Finally, I'd like to correct my earlier post. There are reasons that people who feel uncomfortable often ask someone else to speak for them. If you don't feel comfortable because you know the reaction might be this thread and are afraid (rightly so since it's ridiculous and can lead to doubling down on the "gross" connotations) that is okay and understandable.
Last edited by Escade on Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Twobagger
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Postby Twobagger » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:54 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:I love putting a lot of effort into an actual high quality post, and then having petty nonsense drown it out. :(

For what it's worth, I enjoyed reading your post greatly. I thought it was an excellent blending of your region's theme with the missions we went on.
The views expressed above are mine alone, and not necessarily those of any region or organization (even ones I'm a member of). My nation's policies aren't necessarily my own views. Currently a member of The Black Hawks.

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The winner of the Award this year is Twobagger of the Ten Thousand Islands Treaty Organisation (TITO), who has willingly assisted in so many operations regardless of the region leading them. Congratulations Twobagger!
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:48 pm

Escade, the axe has been ground down to the hilt now. Just drop it and move on.

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Galiantus III
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Postby Galiantus III » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:30 pm

Good report by TGW. I should also say my eyes usually glaze over whenever RP writing happens, but this kept my interest for the whole report.
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Armaros
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Postby Armaros » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:33 pm

That report was quite a nice read, Tim :)
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Kaystein
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Postby Kaystein » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:33 pm

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Hello fellow NationStaters,

It recently came to the attention of Enadia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs that a few members of our regional government have been posting in this thread discussing remarks made by several individuals that may/may not be of an OOC nature; a topic currently being seriously discussed and will hopefully be resolved soon to the benefit and relief of all involved.

The region of Enadia has a new, yet formally written, but mutually understood hard lined rule among the current government of Enadia which boils down to "Enadia will not involve itself in OOC/RL issues that arise within the NSGP community, or other NS regions in general." This rule regarding impartiality is meant to help Enadia steer away from stumbling onto future conflicts in which our region has no direct interest or involvement.

It seems a few member of our regional government may have forgotten about this new rule; Enadia's Ministry of foreign Affairs has sent our leaders involved a reminder about our new policy. From this point on, people of our region shall refrain from commenting on this matter which shouldn't concern us.

Enadia recognizes the issue in question to exist between the region of the Grey Wardens and the Black Hawks, and some other parties. We apologize if any informal comments made by some of our region's government offended anybody, and wish all involved good luck in sorting things out.

Good day.
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