The Grey Wardens: Warden-Lieutenant Eshialand

[United Republic Empire]

That's a bit much to ask from an adult that enjoys harassing people on the internet that are younger than them. Especially after Reploid asked them politely to knock it off the first time. Sheesh.....what is this....some college fraternity house fueled by booze and hormones ??

Maybe Roavin will come to a realization when some random stranger starts talking to their young offspring the same way they talk to people. Like Dude, not cool and not kosher. Even though you toss out a "disclaimer" that doesn't make it okay to behave in such a manner.

Sorry, did I miss the part where Enadia became the moral compass of GP?

No, you missed all the changes that have happened. Besides don't try to change the subject and act like this display of trolling and harassment is nothing. In doing so, it shows that you support the harassment of younger players by adults with nothing better to do. Does East Meranoprius support this kind of attitude and behavior ? Do you really believe it is okay for adults to cyberbully young people ? Because that's a dangerous mindset to get behind. So instead of trying to steer the conversation away from the discussion of this display of blatant cyberbullying, why don't you condone it and help prevent it from happening to others. Surely, if you had any kids, especially a daughter of your own, then you'd see that when an adult male that's not her father tell's her "He's her daddy" - the sexual connotation that is implied. This kind of behavior is frowned upon because it is creepy and downright gross. We may not be the shinning moral compass, but at least we're not the enablers supporting this kind of behavior such as you seemed to have done.

[Kurnugia]

Sorry, did I miss the part where Enadia became the moral compass of GP?

No, you missed all the changes that have happened. Besides don't try to change the subject and act like this display of trolling and harassment is nothing. In doing so, it shows that you support the harassment of younger players by adults with nothing better to do. Does East Meranoprius support this kind of attitude and behavior ? Do you really believe it is okay for adults to cyberbully young people ? Because that's a dangerous mindset to get behind. So instead of trying to steer the conversation away from the discussion of this display of blatant cyberbullying, why don't you condone it and help prevent it from happening to others. Surely, if you had any kids, especially a daughter of your own, then you'd see that when an adult male that's not her father tell's her "He's her daddy" - the sexual connotation that is implied. This kind of behavior is frowned upon because it is creepy and downright gross. We may not be the shinning moral compass, but at least we're not the enablers supporting this kind of behavior such as you seemed to have done.

If this is harrasment, go to moderation.

[East Meranopirus]

No, you missed all the changes that have happened. Besides don't try to change the subject and act like this display of trolling and harassment is nothing. In doing so, it shows that you support the harassment of younger players by adults with nothing better to do. Does East Meranoprius support this kind of attitude and behavior ? Do you really believe it is okay for adults to cyberbully young people ? Because that's a dangerous mindset to get behind. So instead of trying to steer the conversation away from the discussion of this display of blatant cyberbullying, why don't you condone it and help prevent it from happening to others. Surely, if you had any kids, especially a daughter of your own, then you'd see that when an adult male that's not her father tell's her "He's her daddy" - the sexual connotation that is implied. This kind of behavior is frowned upon because it is creepy and downright gross. We may not be the shinning moral compass, but at least we're not the enablers supporting this kind of behavior such as you seemed to have done.

Stop beating the dead horse. Roavin's most recent post is just a bit of harmless shitposting, and while some people like to take issue with it, it's clearly not trolling, harassment or cyberbullying. You either didn't even bother to read the post, or are just, like I said before, trying to beat a dead horse to make yourself (and by extension Enadia) look better.

[United Republic Empire]

No, you missed all the changes that have happened. Besides don't try to change the subject and act like this display of trolling and harassment is nothing. In doing so, it shows that you support the harassment of younger players by adults with nothing better to do. Does East Meranoprius support this kind of attitude and behavior ? Do you really believe it is okay for adults to cyberbully young people ? Because that's a dangerous mindset to get behind. So instead of trying to steer the conversation away from the discussion of this display of blatant cyberbullying, why don't you condone it and help prevent it from happening to others. Surely, if you had any kids, especially a daughter of your own, then you'd see that when an adult male that's not her father tell's her "He's her daddy" - the sexual connotation that is implied. This kind of behavior is frowned upon because it is creepy and downright gross. We may not be the shinning moral compass, but at least we're not the enablers supporting this kind of behavior such as you seemed to have done.

If this is harrasment, go to moderation.

Reploid already told them to knock it off once and here they are trying to sneak it in again. It's nice to know who all is showing their true colors by supporting and defending the grotesque actions of harassment with sexual innuendos. Continue turning a blind eye on these antics and that is how the world ends up becoming a worse place. Then I again, I did forget this is a boys club and of course boys will be boys as the saying goes.

[Borovan entered the region as he]

Essentially, this.

Even if its not being intended in such a manner, the "daddy" joke carries certain sexual connotations, particularly of the sexual harassment flavoring and especially for female players who have quite likely had to deal with some flavor of it IRL where it is anything but harmless or funny. It really does need to stop, I know you guys are plenty creative enough that you can find ways to throw shade at your gameplay rivals that doesn't leave participants and bystanders feeling uncomfortable in that sort of "creeper being creepy" sort of way.

The fact that the response to basically "Guys, seriously, this isn't funny anymore and it's really kinda creepy/uncomfortable, please stop." seems to have been so far "Lawl, deal with it." is seriously disappointing.

(Image)
~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

Yes, to Reppy. There's no one in this day and age who is on social media of any kind who does not know that this has a sexual connotation and let's be real it's been used in a sexually connotative way in the past as well.

I don't. Not familiar with all this modern stuff young ppl use.

[Kurnugia]

If this is harrasment, go to moderation.

Reploid already told them to knock it off once and here they are trying to sneak it in again. It's nice to know who all is showing their true colors by supporting and defending the grotesque actions of harassment with sexual innuendos. Continue turning a blind eye on these antics and that is how the world ends up becoming a worse place. Then I again, I did forget this is a boys club and of course boys will be boys as the saying goes.

I support that harrasment charges belong where they do. In moderation. But then I forget that I am talking to an Enadia resident.

[Jar Wattinree]

I support that harrasment charges belong where they do. In moderation. But then I forget that I am talking to an Enadia resident.

Hey hey hey, now, don't go casting shade. Whether it is warranted or not, that's not the way to go about it. (And let's not derail the topic of The Grey Wardens' latest report any further than it already is -- takes some time for people to get back on track.)

[Kurnugia]

I support that harrasment charges belong where they do. In moderation. But then I forget that I am talking to an Enadia resident.

Hey hey hey, now, don't go casting shade. Whether it is warranted or not, that's not the way to go about it. (And let's not derail the topic of The Grey Wardens' latest report any further than it already is -- takes some time for people to get back on track.)

fair enough

[Eumaeus]

Before I say what I would like to say, there are a few disclaimers I would like to go through.

First, I am posting as individual player and not as a member of the Black Hawks. I’m not personally offended by anything in TGW’s reports and I have not discussed this matter with any members of the Black Hawks. My only interest in this thread is as an individual.

Second, IRL I work on a sexual assault hotline, and I want to make it clear that I do not approach discussions relating to sexual harassment lightly. Which brings me to my next disclaimer…

Third, while this is a discussion relating to sexual harassment, I want to make it absolutely crystal clear that I am not accusing anyone of sexually harassing anyone else. I am also not meaning to imply that the problem I am talking about is an attribute of TGW, but simply something I noticed amongst those defending these reports.

Lastly, while I think her statements were a bit too strongly worded, I think that Escade getting reported for trying to have a serious conversation is ridiculous. That being said, I think that URE’s statements have inflated the issue well beyond its reality and have entered the realm of personal attacks. While I think Roavin's actions are emblematic of the problem with this conversation, I don't think he's done anything as heinous as cyberbullying or harassment.

I have had a lot that I have wanted to say since this issue first popped up, but have held off on posting anything in hopes that the parties involved would be capable of having a productive conversation. It has become clear that this is not the case. This is a topic that is very important to me, and I have put a lot of thought into how this situation is being handled and how it made me feel. This morning I settled on an answer. I’m not angry, and I’m not offended. I’m disappointed.

From what I can tell this started off as a misunderstanding based off of generational differences. Members of the Grey Wardens who are members of an older generation have been using an update report theme for a while now that uses language that to them had no subversive connotations beyond condescendingly portraying themselves in a paternal relationship to the Black Hawks. Members of the Black Hawks, however, who are members of an younger generation have been feeling uncomfortable as a result of these reports, because to their generation the language in the reports was making them immediately think of the “yes, daddy” culture resulting from the sexualization of children and infantilization that our society has for some reason been pushing in the last couple years.

Maybe I’m being naive, especially considering the number of instances I’ve found from the past two years of members of TBH expressing discomfort with this, but I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that the people writing these “daddy” themed reports weren’t intending for them to be interpreted as sexual. After all, were I to assume that this was intentionally sexual, then I could not in good conscience describe this as anything but sexual harassment.

I don’t have much of a problem with the fact that TGW posted these reports, but what I am extremely disappointed in has been the reaction to criticism over them. Even if you think that this is a non-issue, the empathetic thing to do in this situation is to simply apologize and cease the behavior. Even if you think that this topic being brought up on a public forum is just an excuse to get bad publicity for TGW, the intelligent response would be to humor those trying to make you look bad, rather than by outright dismissing their concerns. It is an undeniable fact that there are sexual connotations to this language, whether you were aware of this previously or not, and upon learning of them giving a modest apology would be all that was necessary to save face. If someone had simply said “we’re sorry, we did not intend for this to be interpreted sexually, we will stop using this theme for our reports” that would have been the end of the conversation.

I could go through every argument that I have taken issue with in the past week, but I don’t think it would serve any sort of productive purpose. The only argument I have seen that I feel absolutely needs to be addressed is this: “the fact that this bothers TBH is what makes it an attractive theme”. This is not an unjustified argument under a lot of other conditions, but the fact that this scenario has to do with one side interpreting the other’s messages as sexual makes this an extremely questionable way of thinking about things. Again I’m not accusing anyone of actually doing anything wrong, but if you find enjoyment in the negative reaction that someone has to a statement with sexual connotations, and you know that these connotations are why they reacted negatively, then I would very seriously like you to take a moment from reading this and think about what that means about you as a person.

The only specific thing that I would like to call anyone out for is the update report that Roavin posted. You expect us to believe that the use of a word you were specifically asked to stop using in a report that included a condescending mock trigger warning was supposed to be a harmless reference? Even if that was the intention, I'm sure you can understand why it doesn't seem that way. It comes off as disrespectful, not only towards the players who asked you to stop but towards Reppy as well.

The reaction to Souls’ initial complaint can only be described as a hardy “lol, boys will be boys” and I’m appalled at how far people have been willing to stretch, bend over backwards, and dig in their heels to excuse and even encourage behavior that should have been changed the moment someone explained why it made them feel uncomfortable. This is the problem. Behavior like this, that excuses the sexualization of GP politics and dismisses genuine concerns brought up by members of the community as frivolous, makes the gameplay forum seem like a distinctly hostile environment. This is especially disheartening coming from members of the community who are supposed to occupy the moral high ground. I'm not rattling sabers. I believe that the tone of discussion in this thread and the muted response of the leaders of the Grey Wardens to these concerns is hurting this community. The fact that people are going after those who have called out this behavior is a typical quality of a boys’ club, specifically the reporting of Escade. This is especially eyebrow raising considering the fact that the first person to imply that this could be interpreted as “sexual harassment” was a fucking forum administrator. If you were really concerned about the legal consequences then you would change your behavior. If you need to be concerned about the legal consequences then you probably should change your behavior.

I don't expect this post to cause any sort of change. I doubt it will even result in a conversation. All I am asking for is a little introspection. Think about what tolerance of this behavior will teach younger players. Think about the meaning that this has for the female members of our community. Think about the message that this discussion sends to players in vulnerable situations. How can they trust us to handle the serious situations if this is how we handle the lesser ones?

[WayNeacTia]

Sorry, did I miss the part where Enadia became the moral compass of GP?

No, you missed all the changes that have happened. Besides don't try to change the subject and act like this display of trolling and harassment is nothing. In doing so, it shows that you support the harassment of younger players by adults with nothing better to do. Does East Meranoprius support this kind of attitude and behavior ? Do you really believe it is okay for adults to cyberbully young people ? Because that's a dangerous mindset to get behind. So instead of trying to steer the conversation away from the discussion of this display of blatant cyberbullying, why don't you condone it and help prevent it from happening to others. Surely, if you had any kids, especially a daughter of your own, then you'd see that when an adult male that's not her father tell's her "He's her daddy" - the sexual connotation that is implied. This kind of behavior is frowned upon because it is creepy and downright gross. We may not be the shinning moral compass, but at least we're not the enablers supporting this kind of behavior such as you seemed to have done.

No one is forcing you to read their posts, or use the forums. You do not retain the absolute right not to be offended. Whilst it is true Roavins post may be regarded in the way you are construing it, it is also possible that it is nothing more than shitposting.

[Vincent Drake]

Lastly, while I think her statements were a bit too strongly worded, I think that Escade getting reported for trying to have a serious conversation is ridiculous.

Did you read her post? She is not “trying to have a serious conversation”, she is saying TGW’s actions amount to harassment, leveling a serious charge in a public place against the rules of the forum, rules we all agree to follow. You’ve also been around the game long enough to know the rules, I did what was required, it’s not my place to judge whether the rules are right or wrong, they are what they are and we have to follow them. If Escade or URE can openly break that rule without consequences…then we all can, and order breaks down entirely. Do I agree with this being the best way to handle anything? No. Does it matter what I think? No. Them’s the rules of the forum.

Other than that, I agree that part of the impasse is cultural - no one in TGW command has used “daddy” in a sexual context - it did not even originate as us being a disappointed parent with raider children. TGW “Daddy” came from OG officers dick-waving against each other at update, who was faster than another, who was the most dominant chaser. This predates my time in defending and wasn’t even directed at raiders. It became directed at raiders as a natural expansion of the idea of update dominance. Not sexual dominance, the kind of scoring dominance that makes Pedro Martinez tip his hat and call the Yankees his “Daddy”. “Who’s your daddy, who’s your daddy?” I’m a Sox fan, I live in New England, this is how “Daddy” is used in my world, and how TGW thinks of the concept.

If we actually want to work toward solving this, it won’t be through mod warnings, “serious conversations”, Cormac’s attacks, or NSA’s well-intentioned arguments. No offense intended, but you weren’t here when TBH was being so sensitive that we were not even allowed to use our own theme to describe raiders as “Darkspawn”. I mean for heaven’s sake, it’s our own region theme! TRE calling defenders “barbarians” was ok since it was their theme, but we couldn’t use “darkspawn”? I was not even allowed to poke fun at how TBH accused me of “automating” defending. I posted a meme which included a small image of cars being assembled in a factory and I got warned for it! (technically an unofficial, but basically same thing since it’s noted and counts against you). TBH complained that we were “poaching” their people and that was toxic, all the while running API recruitment on defender regions. TBH complained that we were spying on them and that was toxic…while they spied on defender regions. When we use a script like Breeze, we are called cheaters. When they use a script like Spyglass, they are being time efficient. There has long been a sense in TGW that TBH wants a double standard - if we do something, it is toxic, we are ruining gameplay…but when they do the thing, it is gameplay smack or acceptable tactics, or not even discussed at all. You need to have thick skin to be a defender, so most of what they do that we find objectionable rarely sees the light of day.

When everything is being called toxic, unacceptable, bullying, etc. it becomes like the boy crying wolf - when something that actually makes people feel OOC uncomfortable or unsafe at a serious level comes up, it falls on deaf ears because they’ve been saying that about almost everything else. We lose the ability to differentiate between harmful things and harmless things, and when you do this all the time, you outright telling us something is harmful also loses credibility and becomes meaningless.

I guess what I’m asking for is to not be as hypocritical…practicing what you preach or at least not vilifying others for doing what you do, too. Likewise, not being as sensitive and only dishing things out if you can take things coming in, or at least reserving serious complaints for serious things. On TGW’s end, we can take your complaints seriously and end behavior that is actually unacceptable. TGW command discussed this and have put the brakes on daddy and anything remotely tangentially able to be connected to daddy, indefinitely. We can try to be more fun and less antagonistic opponents.

We don’t want gameplay to be a hostile or unsafe place, we don’t think you are OOC bad people and we don’t want you to think we are OOC bad people. We are not exclusive or elitists or a good ‘old boys club. Most of our gloat posts trend toward a certain aesthetic, but anyone in TGW can write a gloat post and they choose the style. Anyone regardless of identity or status can become a warden and work up the ranks to command the org and shape its policy and culture.

I expect the response to this to be defensive and nothing will change because you will find a way to say what we do is different than what you do and somehow equate it all to being toxic, unacceptable, bullying, or whatever in whatever way, so nothing will change. But, let the record reflect that I opened up and said what our real concerns are and why we think like this. You will disagree with the reasoning, but hey I tried. See you on the battlefield.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Other than that, I agree that part of the impasse is cultural - no one in TGW command has used “daddy” in a sexual context - it did not even originate as us being a disappointed parent with raider children. TGW “Daddy” came from OG officers dick-waving against each other at update, who was faster than another, who was the most dominant chaser. This predates my time in defending and wasn’t even directed at raiders. It became directed at raiders as a natural expansion of the idea of update dominance. Not sexual dominance, the kind of scoring dominance that makes Pedro Martinez tip his hat and call the Yankees his “Daddy”. “Who’s your daddy, who’s your daddy?” I’m a Sox fan, I live in New England, this is how “Daddy” is used in my world, and how TGW thinks of the concept.

Just going to note here that this totally contradicts the explanation we've been given thus far, that this was about TGW viewing themselves as the adults in the room and treating TBH like kids, etc. Now it's about dominance. Which is what everyone else was saying all along. And no, sorry, but you can't divorce that from the sexual connotation because that's where it comes from. Whether you intended it or not isn't the point. Stop doing it.

If we actually want to work toward solving this, it won’t be through mod warnings, “serious conversations”, Cormac’s attacks, or NSA’s well-intentioned arguments.

You're right, if we want to work toward solving it, it involves Wardens taking responsibility for their own actions and not constantly blaming others. My "attacks" are based on your total refusal to accept that you were making people uncomfortable, apologize, and stop doing it. I was defending you in this thread initially until Roavin jumped in to double down on everything and insist that no one was really uncomfortable and it was all just point-scoring.

No offense intended, but you weren’t here when TBH was being so sensitive that we were not even allowed to use our own theme to describe raiders as “Darkspawn”. I mean for heaven’s sake, it’s our own region theme! TRE calling defenders “barbarians” was ok since it was their theme, but we couldn’t use “darkspawn”? I was not even allowed to poke fun at how TBH accused me of “automating” defending. I posted a meme which included a small image of cars being assembled in a factory and I got warned for it! (technically an unofficial, but basically same thing since it’s noted and counts against you).

A lot of people disagreed with this heavy-handed moderation and had your backs over it. TBH's complaint in response was that it was part of a pattern of behavior on TGW's part, that "darkspawn" had just become part and parcel of your toxic behavior. Maybe those of us who defended you were wrong.

This is not to mention that you're leaving out this actually started over defenders reporting "hagfish," and then mods ruling against "darkspawn" as well.

TBH complained that we were “poaching” their people and that was toxic, all the while running API recruitment on defender regions.

There's quite a bit of difference between running an API recruitment script versus the poaching tactics employed by some folks from TGW.

TBH complained that we were spying on them and that was toxic…while they spied on defender regions.

Except your spying involved a lot of toxic sludge both during and after the spying occurred.

When we use a script like Breeze, we are called cheaters. When they use a script like Spyglass, they are being time efficient.

TBH didn't rule Breeze++ illegal, an admin did. You should be glad you didn't get the full Predator treatment raiders did. Spyglass, meanwhile, is legal.

TGW command discussed this and have put the brakes on daddy and anything remotely tangentially able to be connected to daddy, indefinitely. We can try to be more fun and less antagonistic opponents.

Was that before or after Roavin made a snarky reference to it in the most recent report?

Y'all need to start accepting some responsibility for your conduct. When it's making people uncomfortable, apologize and stop doing it. That's all anyone is asking you to do here. No one is out to get you on OOC grounds. Nobody wants to run you out of the game over OOC stuff. We just want you to knock it off. That isn't asking too much, and you need to stop flailing about and blaming TBH, me, Escade, moderators, or whoever else, and have some accountability.

I expect the response to this to be defensive and nothing will change because you will find a way to say what we do is different than what you do and somehow equate it all to being toxic, unacceptable, bullying, or whatever in whatever way, so nothing will change. But, let the record reflect that I opened up and said what our real concerns are and why we think like this. You will disagree with the reasoning, but hey I tried. See you on the battlefield.

...but you probably won't, because your apparent ground rules for TGW modifying its behavior is everyone else accepting a false equivalence. If we don't accept that everything you've listed TBH doing is exactly the same as what TGW did, then "nothing will change." That's not actually trying.

[Armaros]

<snip>

You say TBH is “crying wolf” so to speak, and that TGW’s reaction was the way it was because TBH cried “toxic” at everything you do. That is nonsense; last I checked, Reploid Productions was not a TBH member, neither are Altino, Cormac or Escade. In spite of legitimate complaints, by more people then just TBH, Roavin still put a striked through “daddy” in his last report purely to spite people, people with legitimate concerns. A petty reaction to something that legitimately makes people uncomfortable. So no, you can’t blame this on “TBH’s double standard”. While I can see how, when the issue was first raised, you thought it was people being petty and whiny due to earlier experiences, that doesn’t excuse that the response was basically “lol let’s do this again it pisses people off” even after a variety of people told you to stop.

I do agree that people need a bit thicker skin. But when a legitimate complaint is raised, the reaction shouldn’t be “lmao look at all the salt” and continuing with it.

It’s good to hear that TGW command does take the legitimate concerns seriously and has taken action. I do hope we can have a less hostile competition rather then an antagonistic mess.

[Vincent Drake]

Just going to note here that this totally contradicts the explanation we've been given thus far, that this was about TGW viewing themselves as the adults in the room and treating TBH like kids, etc. Now it's about dominance. Which is what everyone else was saying all along. And no, sorry, but you can't divorce that from the sexual connotation because that's where it comes from. Whether you intended it or not isn't the point. Stop doing it.

Dominance at update is about winning, not sexual shit. That doesn’t contradict anything - how it started is different than what it became. It was still never sexual, the concept of daddy predates social media, broadband, and most members of Gen Z. There is evidently another meaning of daddy that is sexual in this era, but you can’t equate the two when they have different origins. We did decide to stop doing it.

I was defending you in this thread initially until Roavin jumped in to double down on everything and insist that no one was really uncomfortable and it was all just point-scoring.

Roavin did state that it was his own thoughts not representing an org.

This is not to mention that you're leaving out this actually started over defenders reporting "hagfish," and then mods ruling against "darkspawn" as well.

Hagfish was never part of a region’s theme or anything. I would have not cared in the slightest if a raider org with hagfish in their lore called defenders hagfish in gloat posts.

There's quite a bit of difference between running an API recruitment script versus the poaching tactics employed by some folks from TGW.

Telling people why they should leave a region vs posting “Wololo?”

TBH didn't rule Breeze++ illegal, an admin did. You should be glad you didn't get the full Predator treatment raiders did. Spyglass, meanwhile, is legal.

Only initially. It didn’t do what [v] thought it did.

Was that before or after Roavin made a snarky reference to it in the most recent report?

Roavin’s post was many hours before we talked about the whole thing. Also, again, he’s not an officer in TGW and can’t represent the org’s positions.

You say TBH is “crying wolf” so to speak, and that TGW’s reaction was the way it was because TBH cried “toxic” at everything you do. That is nonsense; last I checked, Reploid Productions was not a TBH member, neither are Altino, Cormac or Escade.

These issues go back for several years, most of what I was referencing is over a period of time.

[Bowzin]

Also, again, he’s not an officer in TGW and can’t represent the org’s positions.

The only thing I want to comment on here is this. In a situation where he is posting on the GP thread on behalf of TGW, as a member of TGW, reporting on a defense update run by TGW, he kinda is representing the org, and if you don't want him to, don't authorize him to post those reports.

[Latrovia]

I don't agree with several point of views here. The fact that no one is forcing anyone to read someones post, means also nothing. I came on this thread to educate myself about whats happening in the R/D world and I saw that TGW officials were making posts calling themselves "daddy". I also saw a lot of people raising their concerns about it and asking them to stop but then they made yet another post calling again themselves daddy, but surely "it's just shitposting" because we're interested to call it that way right? At first I gave this post the benefit of the doubt until I saw it happening again.

So far I've heard that this was not used as a sexual innuendo, but then it happened again even though many expressed their discomfort towards it. So my question is, what was the original intention?

Additionally Roavin is not representing the org? Are we being serious here? Are you actually throwing your own guy down the hill and still defend this? Last time I checked he was the one that made an official update for TGW, so to claim that he is not representing TGW is a great way for you guys not to take responsibility and accountability of your actions. Also around what era was the term daddy used a non-sexual innuendo? Because even in the 20th century it was used also as one and it referred about males being dominant over a females in bed. So are you calling TBH also females in this case and yourselves the mighty males? Because in any way I try to see this and I am trying really hard to favor TGW here you guys leave no one any room to doubt your actions.

[Vincent Drake]

Additionally Roavin is not representing the org? Are we being serious here? Are you actually throwing your own guy down the hill and still defend this? Last time I checked he was the one that made an official update for TGW, so to claim that he is not representing TGW is a great way for you guys not to take responsibility and accountability of your actions.

Anyone in TGW can write a gloat post. That's all they are, a report about update activity. Official reports that represent the position of the org and/or important events come from commanders.

[Latrovia]

Additionally Roavin is not representing the org? Are we being serious here? Are you actually throwing your own guy down the hill and still defend this? Last time I checked he was the one that made an official update for TGW, so to claim that he is not representing TGW is a great way for you guys not to take responsibility and accountability of your actions.

Anyone in TGW can write a gloat post. That's all they are, a report about update activity. Official reports that represent the position of the org and/or important events come from commanders.

Ahhhhh okayyy then if that's the case, allow me to assume that TGW are not sensitive about this matter at all then. TGW according to what you said deliberately allow any of their members to make official reports about their updates, call themselves Daddy even though they have been asked and instructed not to do so by many people, and the commanders support and defend this official and disgusting position and refuse to take action or to be held accountable for their members disgusting habits. Overall TGW were asked to apologize for this supposedly joking attitude of theirs and throw everything behind but ofc TGW seem to support this sort of attitude therefore we got not one, but two posts to be reminded of it. Sounds good to me. Carry on.

[Indo-Malaysia]

... I just wanted to read a shitpost...

[Escade]

TL:DR

Person: Stop saying this thing to me, it makes me and my fellow players uncomfortable.
TGW: Ha ha I'm going to say it LOUDER.

Person: Stop saying this thing to me, it makes me and my fellow players uncomfortable.
People\Me: Hey, maybe stop saying this thing that makes them feel uncomfortable. You're better than this.
TGW Member: Nah bitches, what you feel doesn't matter also stfu bc I'm you're father. Ha ha see I used a THESAURUS to say the same thing.

People\Me: That's some serious effing toxic shit. Also I was wrong about the "You're better than this," part. Thanks for making it clear though!

Other than that, I agree that part of the impasse is cultural - no one in TGW command has used “daddy” in a sexual context - it did not even originate as us being a disappointed parent with raider children. TGW “Daddy” came from OG officers dick-waving against each other at update, who was faster than another, who was the most dominant chaser. This predates my time in defending and wasn’t even directed at raiders. It became directed at raiders as a natural expansion of the idea of update dominance. Not sexual dominance, the kind of scoring dominance that makes Pedro Martinez tip his hat and call the Yankees his “Daddy”. “Who’s your daddy, who’s your daddy?” I’m a Sox fan, I live in New England, this is how “Daddy” is used in my world, and how TGW thinks of the concept.

Just going to note here that this totally contradicts the explanation we've been given thus far, that this was about TGW viewing themselves as the adults in the room and treating TBH like kids, etc. Now it's about dominance. Which is what everyone else was saying all along. And no, sorry, but you can't divorce that from the sexual connotation because that's where it comes from. Whether you intended it or not isn't the point. Stop doing it.

If we actually want to work toward solving this, it won’t be through mod warnings, “serious conversations”, Cormac’s attacks, or NSA’s well-intentioned arguments.

You're right, if we want to work toward solving it, it involves Wardens taking responsibility for their own actions and not constantly blaming others. My "attacks" are based on your total refusal to accept that you were making people uncomfortable, apologize, and stop doing it. I was defending you in this thread initially until Roavin jumped in to double down on everything and insist that no one was really uncomfortable and it was all just point-scoring.

No offense intended, but you weren’t here when TBH was being so sensitive that we were not even allowed to use our own theme to describe raiders as “Darkspawn”. I mean for heaven’s sake, it’s our own region theme! TRE calling defenders “barbarians” was ok since it was their theme, but we couldn’t use “darkspawn”? I was not even allowed to poke fun at how TBH accused me of “automating” defending. I posted a meme which included a small image of cars being assembled in a factory and I got warned for it! (technically an unofficial, but basically same thing since it’s noted and counts against you).

A lot of people disagreed with this heavy-handed moderation and had your backs over it. TBH's complaint in response was that it was part of a pattern of behavior on TGW's part, that "darkspawn" had just become part and parcel of your toxic behavior. Maybe those of us who defended you were wrong.

This is not to mention that you're leaving out this actually started over defenders reporting "hagfish," and then mods ruling against "darkspawn" as well.

TBH complained that we were “poaching” their people and that was toxic, all the while running API recruitment on defender regions.

There's quite a bit of difference between running an API recruitment script versus the poaching tactics employed by some folks from TGW.

TBH complained that we were spying on them and that was toxic…while they spied on defender regions.

Except your spying involved a lot of toxic sludge both during and after the spying occurred.

When we use a script like Breeze, we are called cheaters. When they use a script like Spyglass, they are being time efficient.

TBH didn't rule Breeze++ illegal, an admin did. You should be glad you didn't get the full Predator treatment raiders did. Spyglass, meanwhile, is legal.

TGW command discussed this and have put the brakes on daddy and anything remotely tangentially able to be connected to daddy, indefinitely. We can try to be more fun and less antagonistic opponents.

Was that before or after Roavin made a snarky reference to it in the most recent report?

Y'all need to start accepting some responsibility for your conduct. When it's making people uncomfortable, apologize and stop doing it. That's all anyone is asking you to do here. No one is out to get you on OOC grounds. Nobody wants to run you out of the game over OOC stuff. We just want you to knock it off. That isn't asking too much, and you need to stop flailing about and blaming TBH, me, Escade, moderators, or whoever else, and have some accountability.

I expect the response to this to be defensive and nothing will change because you will find a way to say what we do is different than what you do and somehow equate it all to being toxic, unacceptable, bullying, or whatever in whatever way, so nothing will change. But, let the record reflect that I opened up and said what our real concerns are and why we think like this. You will disagree with the reasoning, but hey I tried. See you on the battlefield.

...but you probably won't, because your apparent ground rules for TGW modifying its behavior is everyone else accepting a false equivalence. If we don't accept that everything you've listed TBH doing is exactly the same as what TGW did, then "nothing will change." That's not actually trying.

Agreed with Cormac.

I had to wait a bit to respond to this because I'm now fully expecting some defenders to try to figure out a way to take me out of the game (moreso than has been already attempted). Gee, I wonder what cherry-picked quotes or maliciousness I can expect. This is what can be expected of the defender community now. An "any means necessary" approach.

Vinny's entire response is defensive which is unfortunate. He also attempts to try to disclaim that TGW has any responsibility for its reports. Hilarious. When you defend the actions of your fellow team members (while hiding anything and everything they've done that is problematic) you hold accountability. This isn't the first time, Vinny, as you well know considering the fun conversations we had during the Lazarus situation, that defenders have engaged in shitty behavior. I'm glad you reported me for whatever it is you thought would be worse than actually taking responsibility and apologizing. It's too bad you lack the sincerity needed to get your own house in order.

Considering how I was in defender chat\VC for several months - the origins of Daddy and other language used by the people posting it (for example the language used to describe Souls on a regular basis - the C word is hostile in every sense) is not innocent or devoid of meaning much like the latest report that attempts to sarcastically say FU to the moderator point. It's actually quite repulsive.

The best thing to do would have been to apologize and move on, go back to a theme that wasn't "pretending to be cool by being offensive." Instead we see doubling down. For so long I thought defenders were a better community than raiders but actually that's not the case, increasingly defender tactics have gotten more and more toxic as a community. Learn to play the game using game mechanics, stop using anything and everything you can grasp at to "take players out" because they are raiders. This is the only game where you have this group using despicable spies to try to find ways to take out people in an OOC way. Keep things IC.

Actually, the only thing I would change about my previous point is about how much of the raider community is "underage" which is true but doesn't change the fact that unwanted attention and hostile language should stop once it's identified as such. No one here can claim "I didn't know," because it's been clarified repeatedly that it is unwanted. It's simple, regardless of the age of the person, unwanted behavior that makes the person uncomfortable is wrong. You can't call it "just frat fun" because no one in TGW has been frat boy or has those credentials and while frat culture is much maligned (and some of it rightly so) you don't know anything about it beyond what you saw in a movie. I'd take a frat boy over those who could never make the cut as a pledge but enjoy posing in what they think is "edgy and cool." As if.

For those actually looking to educate themselves instead of doubling down on shitty behavior, this is a great resource: examples of harassment


Finally, collating everything with current political context. If TGW was Bret Stephens, and someone called them a bedbug they would be trying to get that person removed from the game or at least trashed based on "OOC harassment." In fact, their reporting is ironic for this very reason. But if it was a TGWer calling a raider a bedbug, then it would be an example of "free speech." That's your real problem. No honesty, no accountability, and an organization that seems to use a terribly harmful logic to justify anything and everything as long as it's done by "one of them." It's a real shame.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

If we actually want to work toward solving this, it won’t be through mod warnings, “serious conversations”, Cormac’s attacks, or NSA’s well-intentioned arguments. No offense intended, but you weren’t here when TBH was being so sensitive that we were not even allowed to use our own theme to describe raiders as “Darkspawn”. I mean for heaven’s sake, it’s our own region theme! TRE calling defenders “barbarians” was ok since it was their theme, but we couldn’t use “darkspawn”? I was not even allowed to poke fun at how TBH accused me of “automating” defending. I posted a meme which included a small image of cars being assembled in a factory and I got warned for it! (technically an unofficial, but basically same thing since it’s noted and counts against you). TBH complained that we were “poaching” their people and that was toxic, all the while running API recruitment on defender regions. TBH complained that we were spying on them and that was toxic…while they spied on defender regions. When we use a script like Breeze, we are called cheaters. When they use a script like Spyglass, they are being time efficient. There has long been a sense in TGW that TBH wants a double standard - if we do something, it is toxic, we are ruining gameplay…but when they do the thing, it is gameplay smack or acceptable tactics, or not even discussed at all. You need to have thick skin to be a defender, so most of what they do that we find objectionable rarely sees the light of day.

There's a *lot* of purely factual inaccuracies to hit on here, to the point that this is effectively the Bullshit Asymmetry Principle in action, but Cormac hits the short version of most of them, and, well...

I expect the response to this to be defensive and nothing will change because you will find a way to say what we do is different than what you do and somehow equate it all to being toxic, unacceptable, bullying, or whatever in whatever way, so nothing will change. But, let the record reflect that I opened up and said what our real concerns are and why we think like this. You will disagree with the reasoning, but hey I tried. See you on the battlefield.

Clearly you and those who listen to you have already made up you mind quite wholly about not wanting to listen to anything along those lines. So I'm not going to waste a few hours linking every factual inaccuracy and libelous statement in there unless someone really, really wants me to.

I'll just say in short that, based on about half that list, you seem to have a problem with accepting the outcome of various Moderation rulings, recent and long past alike, on a level I haven't seen since I worked to purge it from Raiding. For the love of god, you're even bitching about ancient unofficcials for posting memes that are too trolly and for unspoilered picspam? Is this really how you want to represent your region?

it’s not my place to judge whether the rules are right or wrong, they are what they are and we have to follow them. If Escade or URE can openly break that rule without consequences…then we all can, and order breaks down entirely. Do I agree with this being the best way to handle anything? No. Does it matter what I think? No. Them’s the rules of the forum.

Seriously - if "rules are rules," and you're going to go around spouting Broken Window theory more or less, you ought not to spend a chunk of the same post whinging about unofficials you've gotten.

[Drop Your Pants]

Learn to play the game using game mechanics, stop using anything and everything you can grasp at to "take players out" because they are raiders. This is the only game where you have this group using despicable spies to try to find ways to take out people in an OOC way. Keep things IC.

I'm very out of touch with GP these days but you mentioned "take players out" a few times through your speech. Do you have examples for an old fart too lazy to search through the millions of posts we make?

[Vando0sa]

"This is what can be expected of the defender community now. An "any means necessary" approach." - Escade

Any means necessary.. raiders did that once.. it was called Predator.. and see how that turned out for us..

Everyone should be nice and say sorry for being a meanyface even if the intent was not meant to be a certain way. Like in the Predator thingy where we didn't think we where cheating but then we found out we where. Still had to accept that we done fucked up and try to fix things.

Also be more like me and make Raider/Defender reports cute. Noone is offended by cuteness!

[Sylven]

This is what can be expected of the defender community now. An "any means necessary" approach.

Whatever beef you have with particular defenders or defending organizations, it would be appreciated if you kept your criticism to them not "the defender community" at large becuz like. No. Thx. If ur talkin OOC stuff like I think u r that's highkey rude when addressing such a broad smear of people like NS defenders... I certainly don't want any of your words on my face because I don't think they should be there!

[Eumaeus]

-snip-

I have thought for a while about how I wanted to respond, especially given that most of the counterpoints you have presented are, by your own admission, events that I cannot reasonably be expected to argue against. That itself is disappointing: that you’ve chosen to interpret my words as arguments.

I have received run downs on the events you are referencing from a few sources, and the details that are not present in your descriptions, whether this be through omission or ignorance, seem to invalidate much of what you are saying. But that is all I have to say on those matters; I will not respond defensively over events I was not a party to or to counter arguments that do not apply to my own words. Thus I will do you the service of pretending that your account of events and their severity is accurate. Even then, when every single one of the Black Hawks’ previous complaints is presumed trivial, your behavior still is not justified.

What I will discuss is your premise, and how you seem gleefully unaware that it is a part of the exact problem I outlined in my initial post. Your argument is that the Black Hawks have been bringing up trivial matters over the course of the past several years, and that the Grey Wardens as an institution have become desensitized to them. Crying wolf, as you say. What concerns me about this situation is how it seems that everyone but the Grey Wardens themselves have realized pretty quickly how serious this incident is. The complaints are not only from the Black Hawks anymore. When a forum administrator describes your behavior as carrying “certain sexual connotations, particularly of the sexual harassment flavoring…”, it is not the shepherd boy crying wolf anymore, but the shepherd’s master. I am not sure which is more concerning, that the villagers in this fable seem to have ignored the shepherd masters’ warning as well or that they could not see the wolf in the pasture to begin with. And this was not a wolf in sheep’s clothing , mind you, this was a wolf that you willfully refused to look for. The earliest instance I have found of someone articulating a sexual connotation to TGW’s use of the word “daddy” is from 2017. That is almost two years of the boy crying wolf for real without the villagers ever looking in his direction.

To put it bluntly, your response is of the same ilk as those who dismiss sexual assault allegations because some people file false claims, despite studies showing that false allegations of this crime are no more prevalent than those for any other crime. You willfully chose to ignore genuine concerns, whether you thought you were justified at the time or not, and are now trying to spin the blame onto those who brought them up in lieu of admitting any sort of institutional responsibility.

And that is what you are trying to do. You are failing to convince me. The concept that the members of a region represent it through their actions and through their words is an intrinsic aspect of Gameplay politics. You adhered to this concept when you clumped my words and actions together with the rest of the Black Hawks’, despite my explicit statement that my membership there was not a factor in my feelings on this matter. Outright denying responsibility for your own soldier’s actions reflects poorly on your leadership.

I am not arguing with you, but confronting you with reality, at least as I experience it. If I were trying to argue then I would address why I think Escade is clearly not making an accusation anymore than Reploid Production is. But I won’t, because my goal is not to convince you of anything. Only you can choose to reevaluate reality as you experience it.

I do not think that you, Roavin, or the Grey Wardens are bad people; in fact, I would like to believe the opposite, and apologize if anything I said in my original post came off as a character attack. I think you made a series of poor decisions, which has now put you in a difficult position. The way out of this position that saves you the most face still involves you losing face, and you are lashing out while fighting to find another way. I empathize with your situation, and wish you the best of luck in resolving it.