Europeian Embassy - In Solidarity

[Pierconium]

No demands were made and acquiesced to the last time this happened. I took personal control of the situation and made some decisions but it certainly wasn't in response to anything from Osiris. What are you referring to?

Let me correct myself here: we were promised last time the NPO wouldn't attempt to subvert a GCR again. We were promised Feux, Perg and co. would be kept in check. You can see for yourself how you stuck to those promises. How can we expect the NPO to keep to these demands if they didn't keep themselves to their last promise?

But that is the point, you should not have entered into negotiations since you had no intention of sticking to them yourselves. I am perfectly fine with the concept of 'NPO failed to uphold their last reforms' - few are as pissed about that as myself for obvious reasons. So that should have been the default position of Osiris - all well and good. But they decided to invite negotiations, make demands, see them met, and then ignore them. Why should anyone trust them to enter into negotiations in good faith when they obviously failed to do so?

[Armaros]

Let me correct myself here: we were promised last time the NPO wouldn't attempt to subvert a GCR again. We were promised Feux, Perg and co. would be kept in check. You can see for yourself how you stuck to those promises. How can we expect the NPO to keep to these demands if they didn't keep themselves to their last promise?

But that is the point, you should not have entered into negotiations since you had no intention of sticking to them yourselves. I am perfectly fine with the concept of 'NPO failed to uphold their last reforms' - few are as pissed about that as myself for obvious reasons. So that should have been the default position of Osiris - all well and good. But they decided to invite negotiations, make demands, see them met, and then ignore them. Why should anyone trust them to enter into negotiations in good faith when they obviously failed to do so?

I see we've gone with the "let's ignore Galiantus' post because that is inconvenient."

[Jar Wattinree]

I see we've gone with the "let's ignore Galiantus' post because that is inconvenient."

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

[Drop Your Pants]

I see we've gone with the "let's ignore Galiantus' post because that is inconvenient."

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

He's running out of snappy one-liners to distract from having anything valid to say

[Jar Wattinree]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

He's running out of snappy one-liners to distract from having anything valid to say

I figured.

[Armaros]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

He's running out of snappy one-liners to distract from having anything valid to say

You're criticising me for attacking people but don't even read the post of the person you're attempting to attack in a snarky way yourself. I see the tradition of utter hypocrisy in GP is not dead yet.

[New Rogernomics]

Let me correct myself here: we were promised last time the NPO wouldn't attempt to subvert a GCR again. We were promised Feux, Perg and co. would be kept in check. You can see for yourself how you stuck to those promises. How can we expect the NPO to keep to these demands if they didn't keep themselves to their last promise?

But that is the point, you should not have entered into negotiations since you had no intention of sticking to them yourselves. I am perfectly fine with the concept of 'NPO failed to uphold their last reforms' - few are as pissed about that as myself for obvious reasons. So that should have been the default position of Osiris - all well and good. But they decided to invite negotiations, make demands, see them met, and then ignore them. Why should anyone trust them to enter into negotiations in good faith when they obviously failed to do so?

I'd at least get your story straight. Armaros didn't do the negotiations, nor did most of the people commenting, including myself. Effectively that leaves the Delegates and FA staff. Though I guess as far as NPO PR goes, it seems that everyone was conspiring against the NPO, and not being disgusted by events and making their own arguments. If you are arguing the govt sent out an order demanding that everyone voted for war on the NPO or implied they should, then good luck proving that one. Don't put to malice what can be explained away by, in your opinion, stupidity or pig-headiness.

[Galiantus III]

Let me correct myself here: we were promised last time the NPO wouldn't attempt to subvert a GCR again. We were promised Feux, Perg and co. would be kept in check. You can see for yourself how you stuck to those promises. How can we expect the NPO to keep to these demands if they didn't keep themselves to their last promise?

But that is the point, you should not have entered into negotiations since you had no intention of sticking to them yourselves. I am perfectly fine with the concept of 'NPO failed to uphold their last reforms' - few are as pissed about that as myself for obvious reasons. So that should have been the default position of Osiris - all well and good. But they decided to invite negotiations, make demands, see them met, and then ignore them. Why should anyone trust them to enter into negotiations in good faith when they obviously failed to do so?

You are vastly oversimplifying the situation when you talk about entering negotiations. Me? I never wanted Lazarus to enter negotiations. I didn't think it was worth it. But other members of my region didn't want war, and wanted to see a way out. Then we had more revelations happen right around the time we had got our demands together. So then the discussion shifted to "can we really trust the NPO". I imagine that the debate and timeline within other regions was just as complex and just as subject to knowledge as it came out.

And let's be real - the only reason the NPO conceded to any demands at all is not because Lazarus, Osiris, or Europeia had enough influence - it's because the NPO knows it would be utterly annihilated if the other Pacifics put their resources toward a war with the NPO. So they met their demands as soon as they came to the table because there was no other choice. If Lazarus, Osiris, and the APC were the only threat, the NPO would not have made any changes whatsoever, and thus it is completely reasonable for these regions to still hold the NPO suspect.

[Pierconium]

So the argument now is that some of you can’t understand that when I say ‘you’ in reference to Osiris I don’t mean the individual I am replying to specifically but the region as a whole?

Obviously it wasn’t some random citizens that were taking part in the negotiation. Is that really something that needs to be explicit? Of course it was the leadership of the region that carried out the negotiation, which is why Osiris (as in the regional government since that is apparently unclear to some) shouldn’t be trusted to enter into negotiations in good faith, because the government doesn’t enter into negotiations in good faith.

Also, news flash, the Pacific has been at war with multiple other GCRs (simultaneously) in the past and guess what? We are still here. So ‘let’s be real’ here, the Pacific made concessions because it knows it did wrong and was seeking to make amends and for no other reason.

But, okay. How is that war going by the way? *rollseyes*

[Old Hope]

If Lazarus, Osiris, and the APC were the only threat, the NPO would not have made any changes whatsoever, and thus it is completely reasonable for these regions to still hold the NPO suspect.

Yes, but that does not necessarily make the changes temporary. The changes in NPO's behaviour after the Lazarus incident were noticable just as the changes back to francoism and infiltration that came shortly after. You can already look for changes back to the old system, and nobody prevents you from publicizing it and talking with others about it if that happens. And if it never happens, then - well then there is no problem for you, right? There are not enough people who want to overthrow the government of The Pacific as long as they keep their promises(that much should be evident from the APC being not able to find enough people).

[Galiantus III]

So the argument now is that some of you can’t understand that when I say ‘you’ in reference to Osiris I don’t mean the individual I am replying to specifically but the region as a whole?

Obviously it wasn’t some random citizens that were taking part in the negotiation. Is that really something that needs to be explicit? Of course it was the leadership of the region that carried out the negotiation, which is why Osiris (as in the regional government since that is apparently unclear to some) shouldn’t be trusted to enter into negotiations in good faith, because the government doesn’t enter into negotiations in good faith

My point is that the debates about negotiations and war are complex. You can't fault Osiris' actions in response to relevant events and internal debates.

Also, news flash, the Pacific has been at war with multiple other GCRs (simultaneously) in the past and guess what? We are still here. So ‘let’s be real’ here, the Pacific made concessions because it knows it did wrong and was seeking to make amends and for no other reason.

Perhaps the NPO does feel regret and does in fact wish to make reparations. Perhaps this time is different than last time, and we're not going to get screwed over yet again. Unfortunately, there's plenty of history backing up that myself and the rest of the APC doesn't want to find out the hard way - it's not as if the NPO can't just go back to your old ways of subversion and invasion the moment we let up.

But, okay. How is that war going by the way? *rollseyes*

Could be better.

[Pierconium]

So the argument now is that some of you can’t understand that when I say ‘you’ in reference to Osiris I don’t mean the individual I am replying to specifically but the region as a whole?

Obviously it wasn’t some random citizens that were taking part in the negotiation. Is that really something that needs to be explicit? Of course it was the leadership of the region that carried out the negotiation, which is why Osiris (as in the regional government since that is apparently unclear to some) shouldn’t be trusted to enter into negotiations in good faith, because the government doesn’t enter into negotiations in good faith

My point is that the debates about negotiations and war are complex. You can't fault Osiris' actions in response to relevant events and internal debates.

Also, news flash, the Pacific has been at war with multiple other GCRs (simultaneously) in the past and guess what? We are still here. So ‘let’s be real’ here, the Pacific made concessions because it knows it did wrong and was seeking to make amends and for no other reason.

Perhaps the NPO does feel regret and does in fact wish to make reparations. Perhaps this time is different than last time, and we're not going to get screwed over yet again. Unfortunately, there's plenty of history backing up that myself and the rest of the APC doesn't want to find out the hard way - it's not as if the NPO can't just go back to your old ways of subversion and invasion the moment we let up.

But, okay. How is that war going by the way? *rollseyes*

Could be better.

When you let up from what, exactly? ‘Watching’? I asked in one of the other threads and I know you can’t answer definitively because you aren’t one of the ‘Organizers’ but how much coordination does watching actually take from a strategic point of view do you think?

[Galiantus III]

My point is that the debates about negotiations and war are complex. You can't fault Osiris' actions in response to relevant events and internal debates.


Perhaps the NPO does feel regret and does in fact wish to make reparations. Perhaps this time is different than last time, and we're not going to get screwed over yet again. Unfortunately, there's plenty of history backing up that myself and the rest of the APC doesn't want to find out the hard way - it's not as if the NPO can't just go back to your old ways of subversion and invasion the moment we let up.


Could be better.

When you let up from what, exactly? ‘Watching’? I asked in one of the other threads and I know you can’t answer definitively because you aren’t one of the ‘Organizers’ but how much coordination does watching actually take from a strategic point of view do you think?

Since when is simply watching the same as open war?

I really don't understand why it is that the other GCRs aren't on board with this war. The NPO has repeatedly lied to them, attempted to overthrow them, and promised change to no avail. The NPO is an existential threat to them so long as it exists as the government of the Pacific.

You keep pretending that the APC should be happy with the changes the NPO has made, but the fact remains that nothing will please us except the abolition of the NPO itself. The only thing that NPO change have done is ward off the other Pacifcs from war. That's all its accomplished.

[Jar Wattinree]

I really don't understand why it is that the other GCRs aren't on board with this war.

That they realize they have better things to do rather than renege their demands and show that they too are just as hypocritical as Osiris?

The NPO has repeatedly lied to them, attempted to overthrow them, and promised change to no avail.

All these but the last are correct. See our latest forum update.

The NPO is an existential threat to them so long as it exists as the government of the Pacific.

At this point, the OFO is an existential threat to all of her allies so long as it exists as the government of Osiris if this is how it treats its enemies -- first by demanding a long list of things, then promptly saying "lolnope" and declaring war anyway when these demands have been met to the best of the ability of the demanded. Negotiating in bad faith is now a precedent that shall hurt Osiris.

You keep pretending that the APC should be happy with the changes the NPO has made,

You keep pretending the APC is even a thing anymore. It is: indecisive, inconsistent, incoherent, and now thanks to recent rhetoric, illiterate and ignorant of basic communication.

but the fact remains that nothing will please us except the abolition of the NPO itself.

Excellent, the ADN has tea and cookies in the dustbin of history for you.

The only thing that NPO change have done is ward off the other Pacifcs from war. That's all its accomplished.

The only thing that the OFO has done is ensure that her own allies are going to be suspicious of any deals they make with her from this point on. That is all Osiris has accomplished, by negotiating in bad faith with their "sworn enemy". The Apathetic Pacific Coalition is an irrelevance.

[Pierconium]

When you let up from what, exactly? ‘Watching’? I asked in one of the other threads and I know you can’t answer definitively because you aren’t one of the ‘Organizers’ but how much coordination does watching actually take from a strategic point of view do you think?

Since when is simply watching the same as open war?

I really don't understand why it is that the other GCRs aren't on board with this war. The NPO has repeatedly lied to them, attempted to overthrow them, and promised change to no avail. The NPO is an existential threat to them so long as it exists as the government of the Pacific.

You keep pretending that the APC should be happy with the changes the NPO has made, but the fact remains that nothing will please us except the abolition of the NPO itself. The only thing that NPO change have done is ward off the other Pacifcs from war. That's all its accomplished.

The only official policy the APC has developed, after three months of nothing, is to ‘watch’ the NPO. I don’t have any idea how that is the same as open war. I was hoping someone that was affiliated with the APC might be able to tell me.

Having your ultimate aim be an impossible task seems a bit shortsighted, but maybe that’s just me? Regardless, if the ultimate aim is the destruction of the NPO, what exactly do you think will be accomplished by engaging with us here?

[Galiantus III]

The NPO has repeatedly lied to them, attempted to overthrow them, and promised change to no avail.

All these but the last are incorrect. See our latest forum update.

Indeed, the last one is correct: The NPO has clearly shown it is willing to put on the appearance of change to appease the masses. By nature, this implies the first two are correct.

-snip-

Yeah, whatever. Osiris has no obligation to court its enemies, and (unlike the NPO) it actually honors its agreements with friends.

Since when is simply watching the same as open war?

I really don't understand why it is that the other GCRs aren't on board with this war. The NPO has repeatedly lied to them, attempted to overthrow them, and promised change to no avail. The NPO is an existential threat to them so long as it exists as the government of the Pacific.

You keep pretending that the APC should be happy with the changes the NPO has made, but the fact remains that nothing will please us except the abolition of the NPO itself. The only thing that NPO change have done is ward off the other Pacifcs from war. That's all its accomplished.

The only official policy the APC has developed, after three months of nothing, is to ‘watch’ the NPO. I don’t have any idea how that is the same as open war. I was hoping someone that was affiliated with the APC might be able to tell me.

Given your second paragraph, you obviously understand that we are doing more than simply watching.

Having your ultimate aim be an impossible task seems a bit shortsighted, but maybe that’s just me? Regardless, if the ultimate aim is the destruction of the NPO, what exactly do you think will be accomplished by engaging with us here?

The NPO isn't invincible. Its power over the Pacific is subject to game mechanics and internal opinion.

My aim in engaging you here has less to do with actually persuading you and more to do with persuading readers to not trust the NPO.

[Pierconium]

My second paragraph simply pointed out that seeking the destruction of the NPO is a pointless endeavour. How does that signify that the APC is doing anything more than watching? Weird.

[Jar Wattinree]

All these but the last are incorrect. See our latest forum update.

Indeed, the last one is correct: The NPO has clearly shown it is willing to put on the appearance of change to appease the masses. By nature, this implies the first two are correct.

I have since edited the post.

-snip-

Yeah, whatever. Osiris has no obligation to court its enemies, and (unlike the NPO) it actually honors its agreements with friends.

Until Osiris demands things of them and reneges on them. If this is how it treats its enemies, who knows what it will do to its friends.

[Galiantus III]

Indeed, the last one is correct: The NPO has clearly shown it is willing to put on the appearance of change to appease the masses. By nature, this implies the first two are correct.

I have since edited the post.

Yeah, whatever. Osiris has no obligation to court its enemies, and (unlike the NPO) it actually honors its agreements with friends.

Until Osiris demands things of them and reneges on them. If this is how it treats its enemies, who knows what it will do to its friends.

They don't exactly have a long history of subversion, nor have they betrayed their allies, so we're not even at the point of having to give them the benefit of the doubt. As a member of a region that just signed a treaty with them, I trust them. But perhaps we'll see how that goes, won't we?

[Jar Wattinree]

Until Osiris demands things of them and reneges on them. If this is how it treats its enemies, who knows what it will do to its friends.

They don't exactly have a long history of subversion, nor have they betrayed their allies, so we're not even at the point of having to give them the benefit of the doubt. As a member of a region that just signed a treaty with them, I trust them. But perhaps we'll see how that goes, won't we?

Most certainly.

Rest assured I will be laughing my ass off at them when this happens.

[The Tri State Area and Maine]

But, okay. How is that war going by the way? *rollseyes*

Unfortunately, the APC is an incompetent organization that can't get 400 people to jump in one update, so not too well.

The only official policy the APC has developed, after three months of nothing, is to ‘watch’ the NPO. I don’t have any idea how that is the same as open war. I was hoping someone that was affiliated with the APC might be able to tell me.

I agree. The inability of the APC to gather 400 jumpers for an invasion is really disappointing.

Regardless, if the ultimate aim is the destruction of the NPO, what exactly do you think will be accomplished by engaging with us here?

Because I'm bored.

[Pierconium]

But, okay. How is that war going by the way? *rollseyes*

Unfortunately, the APC is an incompetent organization that can't get 400 people to jump in one update, so not too well.

The only official policy the APC has developed, after three months of nothing, is to ‘watch’ the NPO. I don’t have any idea how that is the same as open war. I was hoping someone that was affiliated with the APC might be able to tell me.

I agree. The inability of the APC to gather 400 jumpers for an invasion is really disappointing.

Regardless, if the ultimate aim is the destruction of the NPO, what exactly do you think will be accomplished by engaging with us here?

Because I'm bored.

Good to know that the scale of war is either ‘watching’ or 400 updaters and that the APC is completely incompetent to manage anything in between.

[Myrth]

The NPO isn't invincible. Its power over the Pacific is subject to game mechanics and internal opinion.

To date the only thing that's ever come close to unseating the NPO is a glitch in the game, and we date back to a time when Francos Spain had around 100 endorsements thanks to constant harassment of the natives, there weren't also half a dozen ROs with access to the ban button and the only way to track regional endorsement levels was with a script.

[The Tri State Area and Maine]

Unfortunately, the APC is an incompetent organization that can't get 400 people to jump in one update, so not too well.

I agree. The inability of the APC to gather 400 jumpers for an invasion is really disappointing.

Because I'm bored.

Good to know that the scale of war is either ‘watching’ or 400 updaters and that the APC is completely incompetent to manage anything in between.

What else do you want the APC to do that is isn't already doing?

[RiderSyl]

An NPO shill proving what everyone already knew.

How easily people attack people they don't agree with on this forum really worries me sometimes.

DYP, most of your comments on this forum are thinly-veiled attacks on people. Get off the high sheep horse.