NationStates

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 4:27 pm**

Neop wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:If Gay were hosting a gay pride event, I wouldn't have posted a comment or given the matter a second thought... It's about Europeia, like always.

I'd go as far to say that, if this were the point you were making since your initial post on TRR, I would have agreed with you, even. I can't help but feel, however, that this is either a serious case of deflection or a rather remarkable faux pas.

On some level, I feel like CD is attempting either some complex performance art or missionary work, trying to convert the poor people of the internet to save them from themselves.

Or, he's phrasing homophobia really poorly. I agree, it reads that his issue is with a celebrated Pride event as it is. Whether it was Euro, Gay, or any other large region, I think we would see the same in the name of "morality."

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 4:28 pm**

Neop wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:If Gay were hosting a gay pride event, I wouldn't have posted a comment or given the matter a second thought... It's about Europeia, like always.

I'd go as far to say that, if this were the point you were making since your initial post on TRR, I would have agreed with you, even. I can't help but feel, however, that this is either a serious case of deflection or a rather remarkable faux pas.

By my question, I wanted to see if the Europeian government was actually trying to do something constructive -- inviting players with differing moral views to engage in a serious conversation -- or if it was just playing moral crusader again, using empty rhetoric.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 4:34 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:
Neop wrote:I'd go as far to say that, if this were the point you were making since your initial post on TRR, I would have agreed with you, even. I can't help but feel, however, that this is either a serious case of deflection or a rather remarkable faux pas.

By my question, I wanted to see if the Europeian government was actually trying to do something constructive -- inviting players with differing moral views to engage in a serious conversation -- or if it was just playing moral crusader again, using empty rhetoric.

Are you familiar with the history of Pride? You're either ignorant of history or you understand exactly how inappropriate that comment is.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 4:47 pm**

Syberis wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:By my question, I wanted to see if the Europeian government was actually trying to do something constructive -- inviting players with differing moral views to engage in a serious conversation -- or if it was just playing moral crusader again, using empty rhetoric.

Are you familiar with the history of Pride? You're either ignorant of history or you understand exactly how inappropriate that comment is.

If the purpose is gay pride (creating a space for gays), Europeia's event is questionable for a number of reasons. If the purpose is to "welcome" players "regardless of political ideology or beliefs," the event fails dismally.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 4:52 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:
Neop wrote:I'd go as far to say that, if this were the point you were making since your initial post on TRR, I would have agreed with you, even. I can't help but feel, however, that this is either a serious case of deflection or a rather remarkable faux pas.

By my question, I wanted to see if the Europeian government was actually trying to do something constructive -- inviting players with differing moral views to engage in a serious conversation -- or if it was just playing moral crusader again, using empty rhetoric.

Lol, as a citizen of Europeia, they can be our guest and come right in, but y'all cant cry like little babies screaming EXCLUSION when we completely pound them for having those hateful views. Its pretty simple. Come on in, everyone's welcome, but if you say the wrong things, freedom of speech will protect you, but it'll also protect the people who will just utterly destroy you for having those hateful views. So go ahead. Come on in. And celebrate with us for the people the world has murdered and stoned for thousands of years.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 5:02 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:
Syberis wrote:Are you familiar with the history of Pride? You're either ignorant of history or you understand exactly how inappropriate that comment is.

If the purpose is gay pride (creating a space for gays), Europeia's event is questionable for a number of reasons. If the purpose is to "welcome" players "regardless of political ideology or beliefs," the event fails dismally.

What would those reasons be, CD?

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 5:04 pm**

Syberis wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:If the purpose is gay pride (creating a space for gays), Europeia's event is questionable for a number of reasons. If the purpose is to "welcome" players "regardless of political ideology or beliefs," the event fails dismally.

What would those reasons be, CD?

See my earlier post:

viewtopic.php?p=34012538#p34012538

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 5:10 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:
Syberis wrote:What would those reasons be, CD?

See my earlier post:

viewtopic.php?p=34012538#p34012538

So you're saying it's disingenuous that the region is making a statement like this, even though they've been inclusive for an incredibly long time?

Would you use the same protest if Osiris held a Pride event?

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 5:14 pm**

The reactions from certain individuals is perplexing. Events celebrating the LGBTQ+ community as well as raising awareness are meant to do just that. Celebrating their community does not involve criticizing them for who they are. That is neither the time nor the place. Other groups have celebrations relating to their group; people wouldn't be saying "Did you make sure to invite anti-Semites to your celebration of Jewish life and culture"? It's really not the time or the place.

It is also easy for people to forget that the LGBTQ+ community still faces a ton of discrimination, even in Western countries. Coming out is still not easy and there is still a ton of bullying against the community in elementary school and high school where a large segment of NSers are. As well, discrimination is particularly strong if you do not include the lesbian and gay part of LGBTQ+. Not saying that they don't face discrimination (they do), but the lesbian and gay community has had a lot more acceptance compared to other parts of it such as people who identify as bisexuals and especially transgender. So it is important that we continue to push for all members of the LGBTQ+ community, because there remains a lot of discrimination against them.

Furthermore, Europeia also has a proud history in this regard with our large population of people from the LGBTQ+ community. Members of Europeia have bravely come out for the first time in our community and speak of their experiences. It has also been a region where a notorious secret anti-lGBTQ+ individual once resided. So while some deride Europeia for doing this because it is 'easy publicity', I see it as celebrating all those LGBTQ+ individuals who reside in Europeia. It's important for us to let people know that they are accepted here and to celebrate that acceptance. I imagine that we have members of our community who struggle with who they are, who perhaps are bullied or afraid of being bullied in real life and it is important to us that we make them as welcome as they can be. Additionally I imagine there are people in Europeia who might be apprehensive or unsure about the LGBTQ+ community and so it is important that they too can learn and grow as individuals.

Some of the reactions here have keenly demonstrated why we need to show that we support the LGBTQ+ community as well as raising awareness and acceptance.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 5:16 pm**

The purpose of the festival is to support LGBTQ+ players regardless of their backgrounds, ideologies, etc. To welcome people who would participate in good faith even if Europeia may otherwise not see eye to eye with them (ex. Cormac).

It is not a platform for anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric and attitudes. This event was prompted by a resurgence of such bigotry in this game, so it would absolutely not be a welcome part of the festival.

Europeia has an incredibly large number of LGBTQ+ players, and we want both them and members of the community throughout NS to feel accepted and loved. I'm not sure why anyone has a problem with that, and if you do, you don't have to participate.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 5:41 pm**

Solorni wrote:So while some deride Europeia for doing this because it is 'easy publicity', I see it as celebrating all those LGBTQ+ individuals who reside in Europeia.

If this event is about Europeia's gay residents and not "easy publicity," why invite "[e]veryone from the NS world" to attend?

And my point still stands:

[Europeia] pretends to be the conscience of NationStates, but the only moral stands it ever takes are stands that are already popular with the vast majority of players. If throwing oneself off a bridge became fashionable among NationStates users, Europeia would be the first region to hold a bridge-jumping festival.

Of all its crusades, has the Europeian government ever made a push for some moral cause supported by a minority of NS players? Has it ever once done something that it considered right, knowing that a large number of foreign observers would disapprove?

If it hasn't, my suspicions of "opportunism and typical grandiloquence" are entirely reasonable.

When I asked if Europeia was encouraging people who consider homosexuality immoral to attend its event and engage with Europeia's LGBT residents, I was slightly hopeful -- but only for a second -- that Europeia was doing something bold for once.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 5:48 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:
Ambrella wrote:Everyone from the NS world, regardless of political ideology or beliefs, is encouraged and welcome to join us

I'm curious. How many players who believe homosexuality is immoral have taken part in this festival, and has the Europeian government made any serious efforts to invite and encourage such players to participate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tewUlulsEaU

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 5:50 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:When I asked if Europeia was encouraging people who consider homosexuality immoral to attend its event and engage with Europeia's LGBT residents, I was slightly hopeful -- but only for a second -- that Europeia was doing something bold for once.

Inviting bigots to harass oppressed members of one's community (which is what would happen if your suggested invitation was made) isn't bold, it's reckless and irresponsible.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 5:59 pm**

[Europeia] pretends to be the conscience of NationStates, but the only moral stands it ever takes are stands that are already popular with the vast majority of players. If throwing oneself off a bridge became fashionable among NationStates users, Europeia would be the first region to hold a bridge-jumping festival.

Yet, as we learned today, those "popular stands" still need to be made, because there clearly is not universal agreement.

For as proud as you seem to be of this comment, it remains pretty nebulous. What stands of ours do you disagree with? Do you disagree with our decision to condemn TRE for their hateful, threatening, abusive remarks toward members of the LGBTQ+ community? Do you disagree with our decision to blacklist The Invaders for hateful commentary that emerged from that region? Where are the bridges we are jumping off us? I'm not sure if you're just so insecure about your positions that you immediately assume the majority is wrong, or if you are just trying to get some attention here, but let's argue the specifics instead of these vague positions that are impossible to decipher.

People who think homosexuality is immoral are absolutely not welcome to the event, because that's not what a pride event is. Pride is a celebration of the LGBTQ+ community's endurance through state-sanctioned (with the majority's tacit or overt support) entrapment, harassment, arrest, and general abuse. We aren't going to welcome people who would gleefully support the return of that abuse. That's nonsense, absolutely poppycock.

People who don't like homosexuality aren't allowed at a party celebrating LGBQT+ pride. That makes sense.

People from other regions who are allies of the LGBTQ+ community are allowed, and were encouraged to come, because this is a celebration of all people who support LGBQT+ causes. That also makes sense.

What you're looking for is a debate or a dialogue. That's not what pride is. If you want to organize a dialogue, send me a telegram and we can set it up. But that's not what pride is. Not sure how that's confusing.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 6:00 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:
Solorni wrote:So while some deride Europeia for doing this because it is 'easy publicity', I see it as celebrating all those LGBTQ+ individuals who reside in Europeia.

If this event is about Europeia's gay residents and not "easy publicity," why invite "[e]veryone from the NS world" to attend?

And my point still stands:

[Europeia] pretends to be the conscience of NationStates, but the only moral stands it ever takes are stands that are already popular with the vast majority of players. If throwing oneself off a bridge became fashionable among NationStates users, Europeia would be the first region to hold a bridge-jumping festival.

Of all its crusades, has the Europeian government ever made a push for some moral cause supported by a minority of NS players? Has it ever once done something that it considered right, knowing that a large number of foreign observers would disapprove?

If it hasn't, my suspicions of "opportunism and typical grandiloquence" are entirely reasonable.

When I asked if Europeia was encouraging people who consider homosexuality immoral to attend its event and engage with Europeia's LGBT residents, I was slightly hopeful -- but only for a second -- that Europeia was doing something bold for once.

You know, if there was a minority believed thing we wanted to celebrate, we would. But guess what? Most people here arent close minded people full of hate, and support things such as LGBT rights, so most of these minority beleifs here are awful. Let's take a look at some minority beleifs in NationStates. Anti-LGBT? Nazism? White Supremacy? Would you like for us to be BOLD and celebrate people with these beleifs? Please.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 6:05 pm**

Caelapes wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:When I asked if Europeia was encouraging people who consider homosexuality immoral to attend its event and engage with Europeia's LGBT residents, I was slightly hopeful -- but only for a second -- that Europeia was doing something bold for once.

Inviting bigots to harass oppressed members of one's community (which is what would happen if your suggested invitation was made) isn't bold, it's reckless and irresponsible.

First, not all opponents of homosexuality are bigots. Pope Francis comes to mind as a widely known example. Second, I was not aware that gays are oppressed members of Europeia's community. Third, any such invitation would, of course, need to be made only in consultation with the group that it would most directly affect. Fourth, to my knowledge, most of the NationStates regions that oppose homosexuality are open to conversations with gay players who choose to visit. It's not immediately clear why pro-gay regions would deny the same privilege.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 6:10 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:To make myself perfectly clear, my intent in posting here was to criticize Europeia. It pretends to be the conscience of NationStates, but the only moral stands it ever takes are stands that are already popular with the vast majority of players.

Is it so wrong to celebrate the LGBT+ community just because a lot of players are already supportive of such persons? Should they have instead found something with an average level of popularity to celebrate? or is it just that you prefer mediocrity?

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 6:12 pm**

King HEM wrote:People who think homosexuality is immoral are absolutely not welcome to the event

In that case, change your invitation. Not "[e]veryone from the NS world, regardless of political ideology or beliefs, is encouraged and welcome to join us." This event is not about "diversity" and "inclusiveness." Instead, be forthright . . .

King HEM wrote:because this is a celebration of all people who support LGBQT+ causes

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:
King HEM wrote:People who think homosexuality is immoral are absolutely not welcome to the event

In that case, change your invitation. Not "[e]veryone from the NS world, regardless of political ideology or beliefs, is encouraged and welcome to join us." This event is not about "diversity" and "inclusiveness." Instead, be forthright . . .

King HEM wrote:because this is a celebration of all people who support LGBQT+ causes

How about we just change the invitation to "Everyone except Christian Democrats."

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 6:19 pm**

The Church of Satan wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:To make myself perfectly clear, my intent in posting here was to criticize Europeia. It pretends to be the conscience of NationStates, but the only moral stands it ever takes are stands that are already popular with the vast majority of players.

Is it so wrong to celebrate the LGBT+ community just because a lot of players are already supportive of such persons? Should they have instead found something with an average level of popularity to celebrate? or is it just that you prefer mediocrity?

Either Europeia shouldn't take moral stands, or it should only take moral stands in an authentic way. It seems to me that every one of Europeia's crusades is simply an attempt to increase activity. That's why it only ever endorses widely shared opinions (e.g., fascism is bad).

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 6:22 pm**

I am befuddled by some, er, particular comments in a way I cannot express very well.

Caelapes wrote:Inviting bigots to harass oppressed members of one's community (which is what would happen if your suggested invitation was made) isn't bold, it's reckless and irresponsible.

This hits the nail on the head for what I personally believe, and what I'm sure others in the LBGTQ+ community, as well as our allies, believe. I'm more than willing to engage with individuals who aren't supporters of the community, but this isn't the Steven Crowder's "Change My Mind" meme-- and frankly a pride festival is not an appropriate venue for that.

Trumpsupporter wrote:While lgbt ppl face some marginalization and it is portrayed as a civil right issue, bear in mind homosexuality isn't endorsed by major religious groups. I'm guessing europeia is just trying to look good and be on diversity and this is the majority viewpoint of modern young Internet users but by the comments from some users here, religious ppl r now being portrayed as intolerant.

This is dumb. LBGTQ+ people don't face "some" marginalization -- we face marginalization period. Europeia isn't just "trying to look good", we're actually a pretty diverse community with a large LBGTQ+ identifying playerbase. Frankly, if it weren't for Europeia and NS I probably wouldn't have been able to come out. This game gave me an amazing support network and allowed me to understand who I was IRL. This is the case for many of our LBGTQ+ players. In fact, we literally spoke about it last night on our Mixlr broadcast. Religious people aren't being portrayed as intolerant -- intolerant people are being portrayed as intolerant. And, good. Just to name two players, both myself and the President of Europeia are religious and gay. My faith is very personal to me and it has gotten me through very tough personal times -- it's something I've been able to turn to when I have little left to rely on. But, to the same extent it's incredibly disingenuous to use religion as a shield for shitty beliefs.

Christian Democrats wrote:First, not all opponents of homosexuality are bigots.

Yes, they are.

Christian Democrats wrote:If the purpose is gay pride (creating a space for gays), Europeia's event is questionable for a number of reasons. If the purpose is to "welcome" players "regardless of political ideology or beliefs," the event fails dismally.

No, what's questionable is your continued pressing of this non-issue, which comes off as being morally disingenuous and being a homophobe.

Ambrella wrote:The purpose of the festival is to support LGBTQ+ players regardless of their backgrounds, ideologies, etc. To welcome people who would participate in good faith even if Europeia may otherwise not see eye to eye with them (ex. Cormac).

It is not a platform for anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric and attitudes. This event was prompted by a resurgence of such bigotry in this game, so it would absolutely not be a welcome part of the festival.

Europeia has an incredibly large number of LGBTQ+ players, and we want both them and members of the community throughout NS to feel accepted and loved. I'm not sure why anyone has a problem with that, and if you do, you don't have to participate.

To elaborate some on Sopo's post because there seems to be some level of confusion-- ideologies specifically referred to IC ideologies-- as in we were welcome players regardless of what sphere they identified as being a part of; if they were raider, defender, independent, etc.

Solorni wrote:The reactions from certain individuals is perplexing. Events celebrating the LGBTQ+ community as well as raising awareness are meant to do just that. Celebrating their community does not involve criticizing them for who they are. That is neither the time nor the place. Other groups have celebrations relating to their group; people wouldn't be saying "Did you make sure to invite anti-Semites to your celebration of Jewish life and culture"? It's really not the time or the place.

It is also easy for people to forget that the LGBTQ+ community still faces a ton of discrimination, even in Western countries. Coming out is still not easy and there is still a ton of bullying against the community in elementary school and high school where a large segment of NSers are. As well, discrimination is particularly strong if you do not include the lesbian and gay part of LGBTQ+. Not saying that they don't face discrimination (they do), but the lesbian and gay community has had a lot more acceptance compared to other parts of it such as people who identify as bisexuals and especially transgender. So it is important that we continue to push for all members of the LGBTQ+ community, because there remains a lot of discrimination against them.

Furthermore, Europeia also has a proud history in this regard with our large population of people from the LGBTQ+ community. Members of Europeia have bravely come out for the first time in our community and speak of their experiences. It has also been a region where a notorious secret anti-lGBTQ+ individual once resided. So while some deride Europeia for doing this because it is 'easy publicity', I see it as celebrating all those LGBTQ+ individuals who reside in Europeia. It's important for us to let people know that they are accepted here and to celebrate that acceptance. I imagine that we have members of our community who struggle with who they are, who perhaps are bullied or afraid of being bullied in real life and it is important to us that we make them as welcome as they can be. Additionally I imagine there are people in Europeia who might be apprehensive or unsure about the LGBTQ+ community and so it is important that they too can learn and grow as individuals.

Some of the reactions here have keenly demonstrated why we need to show that we support the LGBTQ+ community as well as raising awareness and acceptance.

Thank you, Rach.

Christian Democrats wrote:When I asked if Europeia was encouraging people who consider homosexuality immoral to attend its event and engage with Europeia's LGBT residents, I was slightly hopeful -- but only for a second -- that Europeia was doing something bold for once.

Well, I can tell you that we, Europeia, really don't care what you were slightly hopeful about or really what you view it as. To be honest, it's kind of tacky for a straight person (I assume?) to chide LBGTQ+ leadership in a Region on how they should approach an event they have a much deeper and intimate understanding of.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 6:23 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:
The Church of Satan wrote:Is it so wrong to celebrate the LGBT+ community just because a lot of players are already supportive of such persons? Should they have instead found something with an average level of popularity to celebrate? or is it just that you prefer mediocrity?

Either Europeia shouldn't take moral stands, or it should only take moral stands in an authentic way. It seems to me that every one of Europeia's crusades is simply an attempt to increase activity. That's why it only ever endorses widely shared opinions (e.g., fascism is bad).

Do you disagree with that position? Should we discuss it?

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 6:28 pm**

King HEM wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:Either Europeia shouldn't take moral stands, or it should only take moral stands in an authentic way. It seems to me that every one of Europeia's crusades is simply an attempt to increase activity. That's why it only ever endorses widely shared opinions (e.g., fascism is bad).

Do you disagree with that position? Should we discuss it?

I disagreed with the methods, the sanctimoniousness, and the whole slacktivist attitude of the crusade in general.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 6:28 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:
The Church of Satan wrote:Is it so wrong to celebrate the LGBT+ community just because a lot of players are already supportive of such persons? Should they have instead found something with an average level of popularity to celebrate? or is it just that you prefer mediocrity?

Either Europeia shouldn't take moral stands, or it should only take moral stands in an authentic way. It seems to me that every one of Europeia's crusades is simply an attempt to increase activity. That's why it only ever endorses widely shared opinions (e.g., fascism is bad).

So in your eyes it is wrong for Europeia to have a festival supporting it's own members from minorities which are persecuted both in Real Life and online, then inviting allies and other people of those same minorities in nationstates to it, but not wanting people who would then try to persecute the attendees of the festival?

By all means come to Europeia for the festival, or even to stay, and remember you have the freedom to say your piece, just as you have the obligation to deal with the consequences.

Posted: **Sun May 13, 2018 6:30 pm**

Christian Democrats wrote:I disagreed with the methods, the sanctimoniousness, and the whole slacktivist attitude of the crusade in general.

does the irony ever cease

NationStates

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