Europeian Embassy - In Solidarity

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Europeia went out of their way to cheese off everyone in raiderdom, and then voluntarily gave up executive founder privileges. I personally think this is an elite foreign policy framework. Europeia should set up yet another self-hosted interregional convention to talk about how clever they are.

It is honestly impressive that I think you’ve managed to actively despise every iteration of Europeia that has ever existed in our history. Please collect your complimentary set of steak knives at the door.

Hardly. I was even a citizen through a decent span of 2009/2010. I was only made PNG towards the end of 2011.

[A Bloodred Moon]

The Embassy received a lot of domestic pushback in Europeia, and you're correct that we were willing participants in the beginning. Thus it's not really a great example of what I'm talking about. There were, however, several occurrences of this with various raider regions that were not publicized because they didn't result in an interregional blowup, such as us agreeing to a tag raid only to have it changed to an occupation including the ejection of natives right before update. These instances, as far as I am aware, were generally dealt with between the affected parties rather than litigated in NSGP.

When was this, and who were involved? The unspecified claim that your rules of engagement were disrespected clashes with my own recollection of 2020-2021, when raiders repeatedly went out of their way to ensure your rules of engagement were not broken. Again, it's your decision to turn away from your Independent position, as it was your decision to tighten your rules of engagement to a point where cooperation with raiders came to a halt, but if you're going to paint the narrative that the fallout with raiders was because raiders as a whole were hostile to Europeia I'd ask you at least do us the courtesy of backing such a claim up.

Hmmmm…

Here’s my very sparknotes, non-annotated, shoot from the hip sense of what happened, ultimately: Tolerating independent regions like Europeia was always an inconvenience for invader regions. It was an inconvenience even for our ancient imperialist partners like TNI, much less more military-oriented orgs looking to tally up wins. But the marriage of necessity mostly worked for a long time because raiderdom spent a lot of time over the 2010s on the back foot, and needed a broad coalition.

This is not correct. From my understanding of history, for a significant part of the 2010's, defending was as good as dead, so I'm unsure where the idea comes from that raiding was on the backfoot. When I became active in gameplay in 2018, defending was barely an afterthought, and yet raiders still cooperated with Europeia frequently.

As for the claim it was always an "inconvenience" to "tolerate" Europeia, it was only an inconvenience in the sense that it required compromising on things like native ejections (although this varied - several regions in 2020 were reduced to dust with Euro's blessing), and this isn't unique to Europeia either - again, see TEP. Only in 2021 was Europeia's presence close to a "necessity" and by that point Europeia's restrictions had become so restrictive that TBH no longer saw cooperation as realistically feasible. Even then, LWU was willing to bring Europeia along in those circumstances where the restrictions would not be out of line (if memory serves, Chaylia had no embassies to burn, although I could be incorrect on this point), only to receive no response from your Grand Admiral when we asked for assistance while they were actively organising a liberation against us behind our back, blindsiding us completely. After we piled on your holds for years and had never asked of you the same until then, that was the moment we decided we were done - there was no cooperation with a region that could not even extend us the courtesy of informing us of a decision to deny us assistance, all the while working to undermine our operations.

At the very least, the raider sphere wasn’t willing to put up any fight to keep Europeia around — and again, that’s fine, but you can’t complain and act like there’s been some big betrayal.

Europeia drifted apart from raiders, because of your decisions. Raiders went out of their way to compromise with Europeia where feasible. Only when there was no way to involve Europeia on operations that was acceptable to us did raiders stop inviting Europeia to holds. Even then, after the restrictions in place after the Embassy, I would have still sent pilers and updaters to support Europeia's holds had you asked - in fact, I did! LWU never asked you for anything in return while we supported hold after hold, and you lot treated us like shit on the single occasion we did.

Your decision has already been made and you won't find me shedding any tears over it. But do tell me, HEM, because I'd genuinely like to know and you might at least provide a sincere response rather than this self-serving revisionism certain others seem inclined towards: what do you think would have been the point to "put up any fight" to keep Europeia around, when Europeia was increasingly unwilling to look for common ground and spat in our faces?

[King HEM]

If it's any consolation, HEM, I've never personally had an issue with you and I'm pretty sure the same goes for most raiders. If you're curious why nobody ever seemed to reach out to you, in most cases I imagine it's because you haven't been super involved with the reality on the ground for a long time now. Hell, the last few times I remember trying to involve you in anything were things like having you as a judge on the Raider Hall of Fame (where I was let down by your lack of contribution) and a moderator in the NSGP server (where I was let down by your lack of contribution), etc. It's nothing personal, I think folks on my side of the aisle just got the impression that you aren't the person to go to when something needs to be done

I do want to touch on the idea that raiders "repeatedly invaded my personal regions in retribution for Europeia not cowing to their demands", because you've brought this up before and I know I'm repeating myself when I say that I understand what it must seem like to you but it's genuinely just bad luck on your end. I swear on the name of The Overseer that nobody had a clue you were the founder of Venice when that region was raided (and apologized for minutes later), and North Europeia becoming available was simply just an opportunity that came up and wasn't a personal shot at you. It does seem a little coy to downplay the obvious reason that a region called North Europeia was targeted in favor of assuming it was a personal slight against you, but I won't harp on it

At the very least, I do commend you for acknowledging that sometimes things just don't work out between parties and not everything has to be a black-and-white instance of one side being the objective problem. What we had wasn't working for a lot of reasons, and everyone seems genuinely happier with the current arrangement, so I at least feel comfortable in saying it worked out in the end. We found independent partners that we actually feel kinship with, and Europeia found defender partners that are willing to put aside the region's long history of invading and welcome them with open arms. Take the Ws where they come in this world, right?

I have no personal issues with anyone involved, but am definitely not going to litigate my activity over the past fifteen years in this game As my signature also says, I've been mostly irrelevant since 2009 (or whatever). My point, broadly, was that in a game often defined my relationships, raiders had relationships in spades in Europeia. For much of our history, our citizenry was going to raider organizations to get real military experience because we were often stuck in the JV league. We often turned to quasi-citizens who were raider leaders to be our Grand Admirals or senior military leadership. Souls himself noted that Writinglegend was a part of high command in TBH for certain periods.

So, the idea that there was all this history, all this inertia, all these relationships, but somehow all these players with long memories in Europeia all decided to go on a bender the same day and treat raiderdom so, so, grossly unfairly that it's exclusively our fault things fell apart...just doesn't hold water. Especially when, at the same time, raiders are going out of their way to antagonize people who could've been their greatest cheerleaders within Europeia. I don't hold any personal ill-will toward the invasions of any of my regions, again, it's a part of political gameplay, but North Europeia 100% continued to be targeted after I flagged it as a personal region.

Something snapped, I'm not sure when, I'm not sure with who. As you noted, I go through periods of activity and inactivity and even if I were perfectly active I won't claim to be able to account for every Discord DM or conversation. But even on the face of it, "Europeia — known for having very stubborn, frankly, annoying members with long memories — aligned with invaders for nearly two decades then just randomly decided to change on a dime, shame on them!" is not a story that makes logical sense. I posited an intentionally overly simple explanation for why things changed, and I know I got some pushback from A Bloodred Moon — which I will read in more detail and respond to later — but I honestly think that a surge in invader strength (particularly with pilers), a rise of new personalities, led to less toleration to the inherent fickleness of democratic, Independent regions. So everyone had to make choices, and they did.

At the end of the day, invaders themselves significantly contributed something that Falconias and Numero couldn't accomplish at the pinnacle of their careers, and its pretty surreal.

[Aerlion]

forced regions like TCB to become full-on raider shills.

Yes, of course, the raider shills who (checks notes) promised to defend one of the newest leftist frontiers under *any* circumstances?

Is this the leftist frontier that cut ties with you for checks notes being raider shills? Or another one?

[Angeloid Astraea]

Yes, of course, the raider shills who (checks notes) promised to defend one of the newest leftist frontiers under *any* circumstances?

Is this the leftist frontier that cut ties with you for checks notes being raider shills? Or another one?

It must be another one... or you don't know what "shill" actually means. =P

[Reventus Koth]

Is this what passes for an apology in Europeia?

[Mlakhavia]

europeia's very classy apology that's so important that it's slammed into an unformatted dispatch with 5 upvotes

[Reventus Koth]

europeia's very classy apology that's so important that it's slammed into an unformatted dispatch with 5 upvotes

That's strange, I currently see -7 upvotes...

[Mlakhavia]

europeia's very classy apology that's so important that it's slammed into an unformatted dispatch with 5 upvotes

That's strange, I currently see -7 upvotes...

That was quick. I see Euro's decision is popular.

[Aenglaland]

That was quick. I see Euro's decision is popular.

Very popular indeed. I don't remember the last time I downvoted reverse upvoted something so quickly.

[Lord Dominator]

Man, I think Europeia could take diplomacy lessons from TSP - at least they understand the concept of apologies.

[Eternal Algerstonia]

Is this what passes for an apology in Europeia?

this dispatch has been pinned in algerheaven

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Well, well, well. Let's break this down.

The Recap

Just to recap:
1) Madjack posts his opinion on Europeia's intent to join the Aegis accords in a private TRR discussion to that effect.

2) Someone with that private access leaks that comment to Europeia. Europeia owns this wholeheartedly. Europeia does not inform TRR of this security breach.

June 7, 2023
[9:17 PM]Gorundu: Well this is interesting
[9:18 PM]Gorundu: Someone decided to leak Madjack’s comments about Euro joining Aegis from TRR’s private citizen’s forum to Rand

"This post came from a citizens-only discussion area on TRR's forum, an area that by law in TRR has restricted sharing with outsiders." -Europeia

3) Europeia is "alarmed" by what Madjack says, confronts TNP. In their dispatch, they focus on how this supposedly made them question TNP's stance as a region, but in TNP's released logs, they're more immediately concerned with having Madjack punished by TNP for his opinion in TRR. Despite TNP's urging, Europeia continues to show no interest in informing TRR.

[9:40 PM]Ghost: Does he want MadJack fired or something?
[9:43 PM]Gorundu: [REDACTED]
[9:43 PM]Gorundu: I guess it kind of reads like he's trying to apply pressure to get Madjack fired

[3:08 AM]St George: Has TRR been told yet?
[7:12 AM]Gorundu: Rand wants you demasked from the MGC server
[7:13 AM]Gorundu: And completely ignored what I said about informing TRR

4) Madjack is concerned about TNP slow-walking their duty to inform TRR, and decides to publish his own dispatch on the matter. For this, he's indicted in TNP (court case ongoing). However, TNP is quite firm that his post in TRR did not improperly disclose anything from TNP to TRR, for whatever that matters.

[06:09]Ghost: He didn’t commit espionage so that aspect is settled

5) As TRR's Delegate and FA officer have posted about in the Aegis thread, TRR is now aware of and highly concerned about Euro's receipt of confidential citizen's posts, and their use as a political weapon to seek punishment against the citizen in question in other regions, while refusing to disclose the leak to TRR - if debatably in letter, clearly in spirit, a violation of the Aegis treaty they've newly joined. They're very patient, attempt to resolve things directly with Euro, wait until after an election, and then at that points request a response of some form within 24 hours. Europeia takes grand offense at this, escalated to the Aegis level themselves without responding to TRR directly, and then has the gall to say TRR isn't talking in good faith.

6) Several more days pass. Euro has dodged and deflected the source of the leak, and claimed that they have no ability to inform TRR of who the leak is "due to other treaty obligations." Euro refuses to apologize or disclose any information on the leak, and eventually makes this unilateral and empty statement.

---

The Statement

Now I wanna break down this dispatch a bit. This statement made unilaterally, as a total breakdown in talks, not at all to be confused with a statement that was ran by TRR's diplomats as a mutual resolution.

Europeia regrets that The Rejected Realms (TRR) was caught off guard by lack of communication and put in a difficult position by our use of a post in discussions with The North Pacific (TNP), another ally of Europeia.

We start with a nice non-apology. "We regret that you're upset we did not tell you fuckall despite TNPs urging us to."

This post came from a citizens-only discussion area on TRR's forum, an area that by law in TRR has restricted sharing with outsiders. By using the post in diplomatic talks with TNP, the post came to prominence on the interregional stage, which understandably caused concern within TRR for the privacy and integrity of their citizens-only discussions areas. We acknowledge that our communications decisions played a part in creating the incident, and that it was within our power to mitigate it had we acted differently.

Nowhere in here is an apology for obtaining or weaponizing this information. They're acknowledging the information was illicitly obtained, deflecting blame from the fact it leaked to the problem being its "prominence on the interregional stage," aka deflecting the blame to Madjack. They don't even take any responsibility for the non-disclosure - they "acknowledge" that their non-disclosure "played a role," and that it was "within their power to mitigate it," but they don't actually say that they should have or feel bad that they did not. They, at most, "regret that TRR was caught off guard" due to it.

But hey, maybe in the next para-

Citizens of TRR may feel owed an explanation for our use of this information. The post gave impressions developed from experience through years of sensitive diplomatic talks between Europeia and TNP by a former leader of TNP. Europeia was alarmed at the contents of these impressions, which suggested much more hostility toward our region than we had been led to expect from a then-Senior Advisor. It also called into question two agreements we had made confidentially with TNP, and it was important to discover whether those two agreements still held. Those questions were resolved in a positive way between us.

-aaand nope. This is just a whole load of "we will now justify why we approached TNP," which as I commented above, itself downplays and deflects from the demands they made to TNP. TNP's logs seem pretty clear that they were seeking a head on a platter, and not just a "quick check is this ur official outlook or do you deny this?" If they'd actually asked that, after informing TRR of the break (cat's out of the bag anyways), fair enough in my book. But they didn't - no, they aimed to individually punish a TRR citizen in another region for expression their opinion in TRR, which is clearly suppressive to TRR's democratic processes.

Europeia has been engaged in talks with representatives from TRR, observed by our mutual friends in the Aegis Accords, over how to best resolve this issue. Europeia has committed to the following:

Europeia has blown off TRR and forced an immediate escalation to an interregional stage, which did not result in a mutual conclusion because Europeia refused to meaningfully budge on TRR's basic requests of "say sorry and tell us who leaked so we can enforce our rules."

1) If we become aware of protected information shared abroad from The Rejected Realms, we will inform their leadership as soon as possible, including by providing leads that may help identify the source of the information in a way consistent with our domestic law and treaty obligations.

2) Europeia will assist in the investigation into the post at issue in the current situation in a way consistent with our domestic law and treaty obligations.

Europeia will, clearly, claim that their "domestic law and treaty obligations" prevent them from ever actually disclosing a leak unless it comes from someone they don't like and want to get in trouble. Otherwise? Shit outta luck, TRR!! Regardless of Aegis' clause mandating:

A Party must provide the Parties any intelligence it holds that is relevant to military hostilities, a coup d’état, or any acts of subversion against the home region, Protected Regions, or legitimate government of another Party.

...Europeia will be of no help! Because some other treaty.

And hey, don't just take my word for it, TNP's first reaction was that at the least, if Euro is not responsible for the leak themselves, then the third party who leaked is trying to manipulate and subvert matters between regions, either to punish MJ for his free speech in TRR, or to manipulate interregional relationships directly:

[10:05 PM]Gorundu: The purpose of this is either to put a wedge between us and Euro, or to try force Madjack out of government. Either way perhaps I should be telling Rand that someone is trying to manipulate our relationship, and it would be for our benefit to know who that is.

So, right there, even at face value, Europeia makes clear who the more valued ally is - given a supposed conflict in treaties, where one requires disclosure of a leak to TRR, and they claim another bars such disclosure, they favor the one preventing them from informing TRR who spied on them. This is case in point as to why Europeia is ideologically unfit to be part of Aegis, part of the core of Defending, and an ally of TRR. The independents have chosen who's more valuable to them, and it's "whoever spied on TRR," and not "TRR and Aegis."

We offer these commitments as a show of respect for the legitimate security concerns of The Rejected Realms, not only in the future but also in the current situation.

"we offer empty promises full of loopholes that we're already using to tell TRR absolutely nothing. TRR's concerns are legitimate, but we're not really sorry, and we're not gonna help you actually resolve them."

Europeia is committed to engaging productively and in good faith with our friends in the The Rejected Realms. With this matter behind us, our efforts will return to strengthening the Aegis Accords and working with all our partners and allies to protect against our common threats.

"We'll now reiterate that we have depicted ourselves as the good faith chad and TRR as the bad faith soyboy, unilaterally consider this matter closed regardless of what TRR thinks, and are definitely committed to the pact we're actively breaking/prioritizing second behind protecting a spy. Why don't we focus on chanting 'fuck the raiders' or something like that?"

---

The Reception

Clearly, this was well received in TRR, when Europeia dropped it without even giving FA folks/Delegate a heads up first. Some snippets:

It is truly remarkable that Europeia did not see it fit to apologise for failing to inform TRR of a leak from our private citizens’ board, nor for further distributing confidential TRR material.

Personally, this reads to me more like an attempt at justification rather than any real apology or acknowledgement of wrongdoing. If it's meant as an explanation rather than just an apology, then it fails to mention at all why Europeia took so long before admitting there was even a chance they were at fault. However, if this is enough to satisfy the TRR government, then I'll begrudgingly accept that. I would, though, highly encourage them not to accept this "apology" (if it can be called that), and continue attempting to prise an actual admission from Europeia that they fucked up, rather than whatever "i'm sorry you're offended" shit this is.

If these actually meant anything, then we wouldn't have:
A. Been in this situation to begin with, or
B. Still be in this situation.

Providing something of actual substance to us might go a reasonable way to placate our citizenry, but given you've tucked this away within a sub-board of a sub-board on TRR's forums without forewarning our elected government I'm not optimistic that Europeia is actually a partner worth their weight in salt.

Really? Is that the best you can come up with? A one sided statement which does nothing to address the fundamental issues, no alerting our representatives whatsoever to this statement beforehand and while bragging over the gains you have made from your ill begotten information. Your blatant disregard to basic diplomacy does you no credit, and very much affirms the belief of many citizens before your region was mistakenly allowed to join Aegis. But sure, "this matter is behind us".

Does “as soon as possible” mean as soon as it’s convenient for y’all?

So uh... who was the leaker and when are you gonna nut up and reveal it?

Why’d you take this directly to TRR citizens and not TRR’s delegate or FA Officer?

Impeccably received!

---

The TL;DR

In short: "Yeah, we used the product of a spy to try to punish one of your cits for giving their opinion in your private areas. Sorry it like, happened, but not that we did it. We'll definitely, pinky promise, help you catch leaks now and in the future, when we feel like it. Whose spy, who did it, this time? Well, it turns out we don't feel like telling you this time. Oops. We definitely care about Aegis, but like the "must provide intelligence about people subverting your government" part of that is less important to us than protecting the spy. Case closed, right? Gonna hit send to your cits and the general public since we know your officers ain't gonna like this!"

[Refuge Isle]

Thank you, Souls, that was very comprehensive.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Thank you, Souls, that was very comprehensive.

I try. With links. =)

An additional take I'll add on top - if Euro truly just wanted to respect all treaties but with sympathy towards TRR, an example of what they could be doing, but are not, is citing which specific element of which treaty is supposedly in conflict with their Aegis-mandated information sharing to TRR, while giving an honest apology. That'd be more of a hint than the disclosure TRR is asking for, but an indication of earnestly trying to comply with the letter of all legal requirements while helping TRR.

Instead, Euro has worked very hard to wholly obfuscate and disclose absolutely nothing about the source of the leak. Their choices and actions have made clear, and continue to make clear, that they firmly prioritize protecting this espionage against and subversion of TRR with a drastically higher priority than their Aegis mandate to disclose to and protect TRR, or their promises along those lines in this statement. Their words and actions make very clear which is more important to them, and I hope Aegis takes that into consideration as next steps progress.

[Honeydewistania]

europeia's very classy apology that's so important that it's slammed into an unformatted dispatch with 5 upvotes

ikr. reading plaintext is So boring. at the very least europeia should had attached some satisfying subway surfers gameplay at the bottom of the dispatch to keep me focused, i got bored reading it about halfway through

[Altys]

europeia's very classy apology that's so important that it's slammed into an unformatted dispatch with 5 upvotes

ikr. reading plaintext is So boring. at the very least europeia should had attached some satisfying subway surfers gameplay at the bottom of the dispatch to keep me focused, i got bored reading it about halfway through

good reference

[Darcania]

europeia's very classy apology that's so important that it's slammed into an unformatted dispatch with 5 upvotes

That's strange, I currently see -7 upvotes...

This link may be useful to people who don't like scrolling too much.

[Reventus Koth]

That's strange, I currently see -7 upvotes...

This link may be useful to people who don't like scrolling too much.

Thank you, I admit I'm not the most familiar with the API

[Darcania]

Thank you, I admit I'm not the most familiar with the API

To be fair, I didn't know that the API showed negative score, so we're both learning things about the API here

[Numero Capitan]

Some interesting word choices here:

1) If we become aware of protected information shared abroad from The Rejected Realms, we will inform their leadership as soon as possible, including by providing leads that may help identify the source of the information in a way consistent with our domestic law and treaty obligations.

2) Europeia will assist in the investigation into the post at issue in the current situation in a way consistent with our domestic law and treaty obligations.

Very caveated commitment here. Providing leads that "may" help identify the source covers for all manner of crimes but assisting "in a way consistent with our...treaty obligations" is clearly intended to specifically protect a treaty ally.

With this matter behind us, our efforts will return to strengthening the Aegis Accords and working with all our partners and allies to protect against our common threats

Not a commitment to protecting TRR against all forces who may seek to subvert or infiltrate them, only to assist them against "common threats"

There are very few remaining treaty obligations that Europeia has with any region who might seek to undermine, infiltrate or subvert TRR. Anyone want to hazard a guess at who they're protecting?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Some interesting word choices here:

1) If we become aware of protected information shared abroad from The Rejected Realms, we will inform their leadership as soon as possible, including by providing leads that may help identify the source of the information in a way consistent with our domestic law and treaty obligations.

2) Europeia will assist in the investigation into the post at issue in the current situation in a way consistent with our domestic law and treaty obligations.

Very caveated commitment here. Providing leads that "may" help identify the source covers for all manner of crimes but assisting "in a way consistent with our...treaty obligations" is clearly intended to specifically protect a treaty ally.

With this matter behind us, our efforts will return to strengthening the Aegis Accords and working with all our partners and allies to protect against our common threats

Not a commitment to protecting TRR against all forces who may seek to subvert or infiltrate them, only to assist them against "common threats"

There are very few remaining treaty obligations that Europeia has with any region who might seek to undermine, infiltrate or subvert TRR. Anyone want to hazard a guess at who they're protecting?

My wager has been on Balder just because of historical bad blood with TRR, but I'll entertain dark horse entrants too xD

[Dreadton]

Euro still looking for the bottom of the hole they are digging

[Improper Classifications]

Euro still looking for the bottom of the hole they are digging

"There's no treasure down here, just a bunch of angry gameplayers"

[Falafelandia]

I put the statement through ChatGPT. Even it thought it was bullshit. It came up with this:

>be me
>scrolling through NS
>see this cringe statement from Europeia
>they're all like "oh no we're so sorry we messed up"
>lmao they got caught red-handed
>apparently they used some private post from The Rejected Realms (TRR) in their discussions with The North Pacific (TNP)
>TRR's citizens-only area was supposed to be private, but Europeia just couldn't resist snooping around
>now TRR is rightfully pissed about their privacy being violated
>Europeia's excuse? They were "alarmed" by the post and needed to make sure their agreements with TNP were still valid
>what a load of crap
>they could have handled this situation way better, but nope, they just had to go ahead and use someone else's private info
>now they're playing nice and offering some half-assed commitments
>they promise to inform TRR if they find any more "protected information" from them
>oh, how generous of you, Europeia
>they also say they'll help with the investigation into the post
>but let's be real, they're probably just trying to cover their own asses
>Europeia, you messed up big time
>TRR deserves better than this
>they should cut ties with these snooping idiots
>let's hope TRR and their friends in the Aegis Accords see through Europeia's BS
>stay strong, TRR, don't let these invaders walk all over you