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Europeian Embassy
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 45
Founded: Jan 16, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Europeian Statement on Anti-Fascist Quorum Raids

Postby Europeian Embassy » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:03 pm

Image

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact Information (Discord): moe#7620

(Europeia, 28/01/2020) - Recently, The North Pacific issued a statement regarding the latest quorum raids it initiated to prevent a Security Council resolution from going to vote. The Security Council in question was a liberation attempt for the Confederation of Corrupt Dictators (CCD), a region with a fascist history whose sincerity to overcome that history is shadowed with doubt. The North Pacific was able to successfully prevent the resolution from going to vote after an extensive telegram campaign and, as a last resort, these aforementioned quorum raids.

Europeia has a history of opposing fascism and Nazism in NationStates, and we will continue to do so vigorously. It has no place in our community and where it sets foot in the NationStates community at-large, we strive to defeat it. We support the decisive actions undertaken by The North Pacific in order to prevent CCD from garnering the international attention it seeks without reservations and thank them for their transparent and clear communication on the matter. Whenever possible, we will work with our allies to ensure opposition to fascism.

We have taken note that some regions will oppose future quorum raids targeted towards such resolutions, and that they would only approve of such quorum raids that result in the removal of approvals from Fascist regions, but we disagree with even the notion that this course of action would be sound or effective policy. Not only would this make it difficult to combat future resolutions, it also sets a dangerous precedent of prioritizing military alignment over combating fascism. While the regions who approved this resolution may not be fascist, the act of condoning such a proposal to go to vote after telegram campaigns can't be understated

Over the last 24 hours, CCD has issued its own statement attempting to defame the current delegate of McMasterdonia. It is clear that this statement only goes to spread false claims and mischaracterizations against actions undertaken by The North Pacific to counter fascism as an ideology. It is important to know that CCD had launched an earlier attempt to overthrow the government of The North Pacific nearly a year ago. We stood by our allies then, and we will continue to do so now. The only thing the statements by CCD have achieved were reaffirming that they have no genuine interest in reforming themselves and are putting on a show.

The Republic of Europeia is in full support of the actions taken by The North Pacific, and will continue to support anti-fascist military operations in the future, including quorum raiding if necessary, just as The North Pacific did in this situation. We will continue to use the tools at our disposal to uphold our strict antifascist stance, and we look forward to continued cooperation with like-minded regions in the future.

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Kranostav
Envoy
 
Posts: 329
Founded: Apr 01, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kranostav » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:28 pm

Very well stated!

While never in doubt, it is great to hear this from such a long-time ally of TNP, especially when it comes to the World Assembly.
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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:47 pm

Great, another region that I respect is denying basic reality by saying CCD is still fascist.

Facts just don't matter, I guess.
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Refuge Isle
Diplomat
 
Posts: 660
Founded: Dec 14, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Refuge Isle » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:50 pm

I understand that everyone wants to get in their bit on political posturing, although TNP labelling defending as situationally aiding fascism is flame beyond all measure of sanity, but aside from that~

There's no remote possibility that a resolution that self-glorifies CCD, written by CCD, and supporting CCD, has a chance in hell of passing muster in the Security Council. Euro knows that, I know that, everyone who is remotely connected to a WAA department knows that. If you or TNP want to quorum raid, quorum raid. Not everybody is going to like it, it might hurt your alliances, it might damage your reputation, but the idea that raiders will raid for the purpose of raiding is, at least, a concept that's based on logic that follows.

The idea that quorum raiders are conducting anti-fascist military operations to promote peace and harmony and whatnot is a nauseatingly gross overstatement of reality. It's attacking a resolution that was doomed before it began. It is discarding the concept of a democratic vote by saying the electorate cannot be trusted. It is targetting regions who almost certainly have no idea what the heck they're approving or what a "CCD" is. Like meetings which could be summed up and skipped with an email, a quorum raid can, too, be summed up and skipped with a well-worded telegram that talks about what's going on. Failing that, burn it down at vote.

The virtue signalling in this situation is very odd to me.
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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:52 pm

I'm actually disgusted by it. Any region that paints their IC opposition as irredeemable OOC fascists for IC reasons is one that I want nothing to do with, and it does a disservice to the cause of anti-fascism on NS.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Praeceps
Diplomat
 
Posts: 664
Founded: Feb 08, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Praeceps » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:59 pm

Thank you for your statement and your support Europeia. We appreciate the recognition of the importance in denying fascism a platform and Europeia's consistency on this matter.
Apparently simultaneously a Ravenclaw puppet, a NPO plant, and a Warden spy. I had no idea I was that good. Depending on who you ask, my aliases include Krulltopia.

Minister of Foreign Affairs for The North Pacific, Former Guildmaster of The North Pacific Cards Guild

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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:05 pm

It is important in denying fascism a platform, but unfortunately that's not what TNP did. You know that, Praetor, as I had the evidence forwarded to you and McMasterdonia via Robespierre. Apparently you only accept evidence from me when it helps your agenda.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually believe it." I don't remember who said that, but that seems to be TNP's gameplan.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Varanius
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 183
Founded: Sep 18, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Varanius » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:10 pm

RiderSyl wrote:It is important in denying fascism a platform, but unfortunately that's not what TNP did.

Do-do I hear something? Oh, it’s just Syl screaming in the wind :P
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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:14 pm

Varanius wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:It is important in denying fascism a platform, but unfortunately that's not what TNP did.

Do-do I hear something? Oh, it’s just Syl screaming in the wind :P

I know, Vara! Normally it's fucked up to use provably false claims of OOC misconduct for reasons of IC dislike, but when the target is CCD and the one doing it is The North Pacific, it doesn't matter how much proof I can muster and whether I was part of TNP's little off-hands op into CCD in 2020. I'm still just a Cassandra. Nobody listens.

Thank god this didn't happen when I blew the lid on Predator. Gest is somewhere screaming "Why didn't NS treat Syl like this in 2016?!" :p
Last edited by RiderSyl on Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Qvait
Envoy
 
Posts: 221
Founded: Mar 08, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Qvait » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:24 pm

Refuge Isle wrote:-snip-

Amen to that.
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King HEM
Envoy
 
Posts: 308
Founded: Mar 07, 2007
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby King HEM » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:29 pm

RiderSyl wrote:It is important in denying fascism a platform, but unfortunately that's not what TNP did. You know that, Praetor, as I had the evidence forwarded to you and McMasterdonia via Robespierre. Apparently you only accept evidence from me when it helps your agenda.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually believe it." I don't remember who said that, but that seems to be TNP's gameplan.


Joseph Goebbels said it, which is why it's wryly ironic that the quote is being used to defend a region with deep fascist history.

And that's what's indisputable! The region has a deep, deep, fascist history. Going as far to try to overthrow the government of The North Pacific, in no small part, due to their anti-fascist efforts.

Have they reformed? In my experience, when the rot goes so deep, it's really hard to dig it out. If select people are sincerely trying, then good on them, but sponging the writing from that stone is going to take a lot. To be quite honest, I think it would've been far better for anti-fascists within the region to just found their own region — what is there to be proud of within the CCD anyways? What is there to preserve?

How many chances do we need to give these guys? When someone tells you who they are, believe them. And part of believing them is taking appropriate action to defend your interests against them. Which The North Pacific did.

If you want to give them the benefit of the doubt and another chance — that's your prerogative. But don't act like people, including true victims of their behavior like The North Pacific, have to substitute their judgement for yours.

EDIT: I do not hold any official role in Europeia at present and am responding as a private citizen
Last edited by King HEM on Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
HEM

Founder of Europeia
Former Vice Delegate of The South Pacific
Raider sympathizer, NS media guru, not relevant since 2009

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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:44 pm

King HEM wrote:Joseph Goebbels said it, which is why it's wryly ironic that the quote is being used to defend a region with deep fascist history.

I saw it on Twitter today and thought "hey that fits", and it wasn't credited, so... I blame Twitter.

King HEM wrote:And that's what's indisputable! The region has a deep, deep, fascist history. Going as far to try to overthrow the government of The North Pacific, in no small part, due to their anti-fascist efforts.
All true.

King HEM wrote:Have they reformed? In my experience, when the rot goes so deep, it's really hard to dig it out. If select people are sincerely trying, then good on them, but sponging the writing from that stone is going to take a lot. To be quite honest, I think it would've been far better for anti-fascists within the region to just found their own region — what is there to be proud of within the CCD anyways?


I was part of the region of ex-CCD anti-fascists that attempted to found their own region. It was the AWF - Azure Watester Federation. I joined it as part of the attempt to fuck up CCD in any way possible. Unfortunately, the region collapsed after illegal (and immoral) activity was discovered. At least one good, unblemished member of the AWF I worked with, TerribleSpeller, is back in the CCD and is one of the folks there that has helped with the denazification of the CCD.

King HEM wrote:How many chances do we need to give these guys? When someone tells you who they are, believe them. And part of believing them is taking appropriate action to defend your interests against them. Which The North Pacific did.


And I did that too. I was a huge advocate of the pre-emptive Liberation. I was constantly in the CCD thread giving them shit for their fascism. Then I worked with The North Pacific from January 2020 to April 2020 in infiltrating the CCD, and then afterwards once I left that group, I kept my eyes on the CCD on my own. I saw the CCD that was a fascist piece of.. work. I saw them falsely claim in public they were different. Then I saw them run into nazis and fascists way more hardcore than they ever were (namely Farkasfalka) and saw them reverse course, internally and externally.

And then I compiled all the evidence of that change and made sure it reached McMasterdonia and Praetor, just like I had helped compile evidence of CCD's fascism when I worked with them in early 2020. When I helping presenting TNP with evidence of CCD fascism, it was great! Now that I've presented TNP with evidence of CCD reversing course, they essentially used it as toilet paper.

Hard not to feel used, ignored, and like something malicious is going on.

King HEM wrote:If you want to give them the benefit of the doubt and another chance — that's your prerogative. But don't act like people, including true victims of their behavior like The North Pacific, have to substitute their judgement for yours.


The North Pacific stated and doubled down on this all being because of CCD being fascists right now. That was the primary reason. TNP also cited a log from CCD's Discord in December 2020 as some kind of evidence supporting their conclusion, meaning they still have eyes in the server too. Those eyes should have easily seen the anti-fascism and denazification that has taken place, in words and in actions.

As I've said before in other threads, if TNP had said it was CCD's history and their violation of TNP's sovereignty that lead to their quorum raiding, then I wouldn't be in the globally unwanted position of sticking up for CCD.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:53 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Praeceps
Diplomat
 
Posts: 664
Founded: Feb 08, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Praeceps » Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:20 pm

RiderSyl wrote:It is important in denying fascism a platform, but unfortunately that's not what TNP did. You know that, Praetor, as I had the evidence forwarded to you and McMasterdonia via Robespierre. Apparently you only accept evidence from me when it helps your agenda.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually believe it." I don't remember who said that, but that seems to be TNP's gameplan.

I don't recall ever accepting evidence from you prior to Robes passing on that link; not sure what you mean by that in that case.

I am well aware of your opinion and that you believe yourself to be objective in the matter of whether CCD is fascist or not. Forgive my skepticism for your claims of objectivity given that the proof you cite as the CCD not being fascist was compiled with the assistance of the CCD as per your request. The proof was also linked in their dispatch riddled with factual errors professing their innocence until you asked them to remove the link.

The facts of the matter remain clear, not even a year ago, the leadership of the CCD wholeheartedly and proudly embraced fascism—clearly displayed by the embassy history of the CCD. We remain aware of public information which should not be discussed on this forum during to the potentially of running afoul of the rules. While the CCD has since closed those embassies and made loud protestations wherever possible as to no longer being fascist, we remain unconvinced and note that the leadership of the region which turned it fascist remains. Furthermore, we have noted attempts at independent identification of fascist nations within the region being suppressed by the government. We are sure that the CCD will have a convenient excuse for these actions similar to their denials of being fascist prior to openly displaying fascist identification.

I am confident you will disagree with our stance and will come up with some response, that's fine but I have no interest in getting into the matter with you. TNP will continue to monitor the region and discuss with those truly independent from the CCD as to whether the CCD is no longer fascist when appropriate.

Feel free to stop talking in Jocospor's DMs at any time.
Apparently simultaneously a Ravenclaw puppet, a NPO plant, and a Warden spy. I had no idea I was that good. Depending on who you ask, my aliases include Krulltopia.

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RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5453
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:13 am

Praeceps wrote:I don't recall ever accepting evidence from you prior to Robes passing on that link; not sure what you mean by that in that case.


Like I said, I was under the hands-off team you guys were running with ex-CCD administrator The Chuck. I do still have the screenshot from when The Chuck contacted you, McM, and others.

Image

Must've been a different Praetor receiving that information about CCD.

Praeceps wrote:I am well aware of your opinion and that you believe yourself to be objective in the matter of whether CCD is fascist or not. Forgive my skepticism for your claims of objectivity given that the proof you cite as the CCD not being fascist was compiled with the assistance of the CCD as per your request. The proof was also linked in their dispatch riddled with factual errors professing their innocence until you asked them to remove the link.


So it's TNP's position that I compromised myself by asking a region that claims it is reforming for evidence that it is reforming? That's ridiculous. In reality, the only thing potentially compromised by asking CCD for evidence of its reformation is the position that TNP has taken for its quorum raiding, because I actually got evidence and that evidence is not politically advantageous for you right now.

Also, CCD posting that mistake of a dispatch with a link to the evidence? I specifically advised them to sit and wait, because I wanted to give McM and you the chance to read through that evidence and potentially revise your public position. While CCD isn't fascist, they're still an absolute headache to deal with, so naturally they didn't listen and that didn't happen.

Praeceps wrote:The facts of the matter remain clear, not even a year ago, the leadership of the CCD wholeheartedly and proudly embraced fascism—clearly displayed by the embassy history of the CCD.
Praeceps wrote:While the CCD has since closed those embassies and made loud protestations wherever possible as to no longer being fascist, we remain unconvinced and note that the leadership of the region which turned it fascist remains.

Nothing to argue here.


Praeceps wrote:Furthermore, we have noted attempts at independent identification of fascist nations within the region being suppressed by the government. We are sure that the CCD will have a convenient excuse for these actions similar to their denials of being fascist prior to openly displaying fascist identification.


I checked the attempts you noted when I first read about them. The CCD already has a functional identification of fascist nations, and that native was already misidentifying nations as fascist. It was amateur, inaccurate, and redundant. Using its suppression to say that they're still fascist is just silly.

Praeceps wrote:I am confident you will disagree with our stance and will come up with some response, that's fine but I have no interest in getting into the matter with you.

/shrug

Praeceps wrote:TNP will continue to monitor the region and discuss with those truly independent from the CCD as to whether the CCD is no longer fascist when appropriate.

Well, they better agree with you, or else you'll dismiss them as "not truly independent" like you've done with me, or raid them like RIA and The Moon. :roll:

Praeceps wrote:Feel free to stop talking in Jocospor's DMs at any time.

When this is done, trust me, I will enjoy returning to my regularly scheduled programming.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Comfed
Diplomat
 
Posts: 881
Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:24 am

It is not a matter of not trusting the democratic WA vote. It is a matter of denying them the legitimacy of a WA vote.
I personally thank Europeia for the statement.
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Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

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Toerana
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Posts: 160
Founded: Nov 27, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Toerana » Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:00 am

Comfed wrote:It is not a matter of not trusting the democratic WA vote. It is a matter of denying them the legitimacy of a WA vote.
I personally thank Europeia for the statement.

Pls, TNP is a democratic region that chose to use force to force their opinion on a democratic entity. It's hypocritical, regardless of the reasoning behind blocking the proposal.
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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6069
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:01 am

For years now, Europeia has been championing every possible way to justify invading regions, whether they’re fascist or not, as an anti-fascist initiative and chiding defenders for “siding with fascism.” It’s gross, empty political posturing: independentists trying to justify their raids with a faux moral cause.

Whenever there was a big Nazi-led raid on actual UCRs, defenders would invite ERN to join our liberations — and the response was always the same, their rep would lower their head and quietly say: “sorry, not this time, Uni.” The only liberation that ERN was keen to participate in was of a UCR that had no native residents. Euro, TNP, & the other Independents are not interested in stopping fascism, they’re interested in inventing bogeymen to raid, slandering defenders, and invading regions full stop regardless of their political affiliation.

The comparison with Goebbels is especially rich coming from a region that has shamelessly used anti-fascism and anti-Nazism for cheap political gain and propaganda for at least seven years now, and gratuitously slandered defenders as aiding or abetting fascism for defending regions that have no relation to fascism or nazism at all.
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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:31 am

Unibot III wrote:Whenever there was a big Nazi-led raid on actual UCRs, defenders would invite ERN to join our liberations — and the response was always the same, their rep would lower their head and quietly say: “sorry, not this time, Uni.” The only liberation that ERN was keen to participate in was of a UCR that had no native residents. Euro, TNP, & the other Independents are not interested in stopping fascism, they’re interested in inventing bogeymen to raid, slandering defenders, and invading regions full stop regardless of their political affiliation.


Having joined ye olde fendas once, for Anne Frank, I'd never want to do it again as an org leader. Days and fucking days of bitching and fighting over whether anyone is allowed to make a statement, what it can say, this that and the other thing. At least when the NPO or someone leads one in the modern era, it's efficient - not having hernias over whether or not LKE can make a forum post about the op.
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The color or what?..

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6069
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:51 am

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Unibot III wrote:Whenever there was a big Nazi-led raid on actual UCRs, defenders would invite ERN to join our liberations — and the response was always the same, their rep would lower their head and quietly say: “sorry, not this time, Uni.” The only liberation that ERN was keen to participate in was of a UCR that had no native residents. Euro, TNP, & the other Independents are not interested in stopping fascism, they’re interested in inventing bogeymen to raid, slandering defenders, and invading regions full stop regardless of their political affiliation.


Having joined ye olde fendas once, for Anne Frank, I'd never want to do it again as an org leader. Days and fucking days of bitching and fighting over whether anyone is allowed to make a statement, what it can say, this that and the other thing. At least when the NPO or someone leads one in the modern era, it's efficient - not having hernias over whether or not LKE can make a forum post about the op.


Listen, I was skeptical of the operation because there were no native residents and no invader/imperialist/independent group had ever shown any interest in liberations in the past. I was concerned that it was being used as a propaganda set-up. I asked r3n if I could be involved in the drafting of any statement released on behalf of the mission - the organizers said yes, so I brought them twenty or so liberators. Then after the liberation was over, r3n claimed a statement had already been agreed to, and I had no grounds to oppose the language used in the statement.

They wanted to use the memory of Anne Frank as a shallow piece of propaganda, and they needed a lot of liberators to do it — once they got it, they broke the terms of my participation (and over 20 other participants), so they could post a trite puff piece about snuffing out the heart of darkness or whatever because that’s all these guys care about. They don’t care about fighting Nazism, they don’t care about natives, they don’t care about Anne Frank, or the Holocaust, or Remembrance, or Anti-Fascism: they care about the *statement*, they care about their *image* as Anti-Fascists. It’s all optics with these guys and it’s gross and shameless.
Last edited by Unibot III on Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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Pichtonia
Secretary
 
Posts: 28
Founded: Apr 13, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Pichtonia » Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:03 am

Unibot III wrote:For years now, Europeia has been championing every possible way to justify invading regions, whether they’re fascist or not, as an anti-fascist initiative and chiding defenders for “siding with fascism.” It’s gross, empty political posturing: independentists trying to justify their raids with a faux moral cause.

Whenever there was a big Nazi-led raid on actual UCRs, defenders would invite ERN to join our liberations — and the response was always the same, their rep would lower their head and quietly say: “sorry, not this time, Uni.” The only liberation that ERN was keen to participate in was of a UCR that had no native residents. Euro, TNP, & the other Independents are not interested in stopping fascism, they’re interested in inventing bogeymen to raid, slandering defenders, and invading regions full stop regardless of their political affiliation.

The comparison with Goebbels is especially rich coming from a region that has shamelessly used anti-fascism and anti-Nazism for cheap political gain and propaganda for at least seven years now, and gratuitously slandered defenders as aiding or abetting fascism for defending regions that have no relation to fascism or nazism at all.


Damn, you're one special gremlin, aren't you? Thanks for speaking as though you particularly knew any of us, I don't think we've had the pleasure yet.

We certainly didn't and I'm pretty sure HEM didn't compare anyone with Goebbels either. I don't know if you came here blind with years-long built up rage, so you didn't read anything that was written, or whether your eyesight is blurry from all the drinks you must have had to write this, but RiderSyl said they don't remember who said ""If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually believe it" and HEM merely pointed out that it was Joseph Goebbels and commented, rightfully, that that was ironic in light of the current discussion.

Truly, Unibot, I'm sorry your ego was hurt by r3n many years ago, but that you can't imagine we would be interested in opposing fascism on NationStates for reasons other than propaganda speaks more for yourself than any of us. I know that anyone in my team is strictly anti-fascist, and would you believe it, it's out of our own conviction.
Last edited by Pichtonia on Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Black Hawks Matter
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Postby Black Hawks Matter » Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:48 am

RiderSyl wrote:I'm actually disgusted by it. Any region that paints their IC opposition as irredeemable OOC fascists for IC reasons is one that I want nothing to do with, and it does a disservice to the cause of anti-fascism on NS.

Fascism is wrong and all who oppose the cause of anti-fascists on NS are held in suspicion.

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CoraSpia
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Postby CoraSpia » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:41 pm

Black Hawks Matter wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:I'm actually disgusted by it. Any region that paints their IC opposition as irredeemable OOC fascists for IC reasons is one that I want nothing to do with, and it does a disservice to the cause of anti-fascism on NS.

Fascism is wrong and all who oppose the cause of anti-fascists on NS are held in suspicion.

So people who oppose the one true form of anti-fascism on ns are held in suspicion? Quite a bit of no true scotsman you've got going on there.
GVH has a puppet. He uses it to post in regions and on the forums. The identity of this puppet will forever remain a mystery.

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King HEM
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Postby King HEM » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:36 pm

Unibot III wrote:For years now, Europeia has been championing every possible way to justify invading regions, whether they’re fascist or not, as an anti-fascist initiative and chiding defenders for “siding with fascism.” It’s gross, empty political posturing: independentists trying to justify their raids with a faux moral cause.

Whenever there was a big Nazi-led raid on actual UCRs, defenders would invite ERN to join our liberations — and the response was always the same, their rep would lower their head and quietly say: “sorry, not this time, Uni.” The only liberation that ERN was keen to participate in was of a UCR that had no native residents. Euro, TNP, & the other Independents are not interested in stopping fascism, they’re interested in inventing bogeymen to raid, slandering defenders, and invading regions full stop regardless of their political affiliation.

The comparison with Goebbels is especially rich coming from a region that has shamelessly used anti-fascism and anti-Nazism for cheap political gain and propaganda for at least seven years now, and gratuitously slandered defenders as aiding or abetting fascism for defending regions that have no relation to fascism or nazism at all.


Oh man,,,,,

Well, er, first off, nobody was compared to Joseph Goebbels — though your post comes close to comparing Europeia to him I suppose. RiderSyl quoted him without realizing it and I filled in the blank, commenting that it was wryly ironic given the discussion.

Your post is so obviously bad-faith that I'm not even sure how to tackle it. There are plenty of people who don't see eye-to-eye with Europeia on this particular issue, and many others who don't see eye-to-eye with us on other issues. That's okay. That's a part of gameplay. But Europeia has been a leader in the anti-fascism movement for a long time. We are proud of our region, and our accomplishments in this regard. Sorry there were instances we didn't join in your missions — I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that they were well-considered efforts that aided the cause of anti-fascism and applaud you for them — that's certainly more than you gave me here.
Last edited by King HEM on Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RiderSyl
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Postby RiderSyl » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:34 pm

King HEM wrote:Well, er, first off, nobody was compared to Joseph Goebbels — though your post comes close to comparing Europeia to him I suppose. RiderSyl quoted him without realizing it and I filled in the blank, commenting that it was wryly ironic given the discussion.


Yup. That's an accurate summation of our exchange. Europeia definitely didn't compare anyone to Goebbels, and I have no idea where Unibot got that from. :eyebrow: Just.. reading the thread would've shown that that didn't happen. Maybe he skimmed it or something. Idk.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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King HEM
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby King HEM » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:15 pm

RiderSyl wrote:
King HEM wrote:Well, er, first off, nobody was compared to Joseph Goebbels — though your post comes close to comparing Europeia to him I suppose. RiderSyl quoted him without realizing it and I filled in the blank, commenting that it was wryly ironic given the discussion.


Yup. That's an accurate summation of our exchange. Europeia definitely didn't compare anyone to Goebbels, and I have no idea where Unibot got that from. :eyebrow: Just.. reading the thread would've shown that that didn't happen. Maybe he skimmed it or something. Idk.


Also, I don't want to come off as ignoring your thoughtful reply to me, but I don't think there's a ton to say. You're convinced that the region is no longer fascist, and are presenting that as fact based on the evidence you've seen. I've skimmed through the evidence, and I'm not convinced. I appreciate the fact that you are putting yourself in the awkward position of defending people you don't necessarily like because you want to help them remove a particularly dark stain from their record, but given the history — and given the even looooooonnnggger history in this game of people in general lying + covering up odious undersides when it serves them — I think you are more certain than you should be.

In terms of what it would take to convince me (personally, again, still not speaking for Europeia) — I don't know. I will think about it. But frankly, I also think you and others should also think about whether in certain instances, when offenses just reach a critical mass, there is any coming back from that as a region. I would again urge those in CCD who are truly anti-fascist to consider hitting reset, and setting off into a new community. I think that would be best.
Last edited by King HEM on Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
HEM

Founder of Europeia
Former Vice Delegate of The South Pacific
Raider sympathizer, NS media guru, not relevant since 2009

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