Europeian Embassy - In Solidarity

[Kylia Quilor]

The point of the repository would be to provide all the evidence that led to the ban, or as much as practically possible, and then allow each region to investgaite to their own satisfaction. It makes the sharing of evidence easier, but doesn't garuntee any more convictions.

Hm. Well, let me just share this anecdote. 2 out of 3 admins in TSP who were asked to ban Unibot were specifically disallowed from seeing the evidence against him. That was at the request of the person(s) filing the complaint. So I'm not sure how willing people would be to let all admins of the forums part of that project see the evidence they give. Whether that be for genuine reasons of not wanting it to leak or spread, or for more political reasons.

Well, in that case, if people won't share the evidence, then you don't act to ban, presumably. If someone asked me to ban someone from my region with no evidence, I'd certainly not listen. So I don't see how this changes anything.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Well, in that case, if people won't share the evidence, then you don't act to ban, presumably. If someone asked me to ban someone from my region with no evidence, I'd certainly not listen. So I don't see how this changes anything.

There are regions that have banned Unibot based on his ban in the Rejected Realms, without seeing the evidence, because they trust the judgment of Sedgistan and Crazy Girl. Even I have never seen the evidence against Unibot and simply trusted others to be telling the truth. Alleged victims claim that the evidence is too embarrassing and hurtful, and they want only a select few people to see it -- which is understandable in the case of real victims, and I sympathize, but it also opens the door for false accusations to pass unquestioned if just one or two people believe them, or worse, if they are also in on the smear campaign and only pretending to be impartial.

Bans occurring based on minimal evidence, or no evidence at all, are not as uncommon as you think. And those banned are rarely given the opportunity to defend themselves, to present their side of the story, to present logs that may provide additional context to the evidence that has been shared, etc. As Unibot noted, it is often the case that the accused aren't even informed in regard to the nature of the evidence against them. Again, this is done in the name of protecting victims, and I sympathize, but we also need to be concerned about protecting people from false accusations and politically motivated smear campaigns. We need to be much more concerned about it. This takes on a new urgency when you consider how actively involved Brunhilde was in policing off-site behavior and bringing accusations against supposed off-site offenders. "She" had built up a great deal of trust, and was regarded by many as one of our most trusted people. Look how that turned out. We can't blindly trust people to be doing the right thing anymore.

[Zaolat]

Well, in that case, if people won't share the evidence, then you don't act to ban, presumably. If someone asked me to ban someone from my region with no evidence, I'd certainly not listen. So I don't see how this changes anything.

There are regions that have banned Unibot based on his ban in the Rejected Realms, without seeing the evidence, because they trust the judgment of Sedgistan and Crazy Girl. Even I have never seen the evidence against Unibot and simply trusted others to be telling the truth. Alleged victims claim that the evidence is too embarrassing and hurtful, and they want only a select few people to see it -- which is understandable in the case of real victims, and I sympathize, but it also opens the door for false accusations to pass unquestioned if just one or two people believe them, or worse, if they are also in on the smear campaign and only pretending to be impartial.

Bans occurring based on minimal evidence, or no evidence at all, are not as uncommon as you think. And those banned are rarely given the opportunity to defend themselves, to present their side of the story, to present logs that may provide additional context to the evidence that has been shared, etc. As Unibot noted, it is often the case that the accused aren't even informed in regard to the nature of the evidence against them. Again, this is done in the name of protecting victims, and I sympathize, but we also need to be concerned about protecting people from false accusations and politically motivated smear campaigns. We need to be much more concerned about it. This takes on a new urgency when you consider how actively involved Brunhilde was in policing off-site behavior and bringing accusations against supposed off-site offenders. "She" had built up a great deal of trust, and was regarded by many as one of our most trusted people. Look how that turned out. We can't blindly trust people to be doing the right thing anymore.

Exactly.

[Unibot III]

I'm sure there are cases of bad procedural practice as I said, some may have even involved with me. But, with respect, please leave me out of this - I've just received some news that frankly makes me feel like a bigger idiot than I usually feel like. I can't imagine I will be appealing my conviction with this new knowledge. I'm not sure what I can say on the Gameplay forum but I don't feel comfortable with being held up as some kind of example/martyr of mis-adjudication. I may have at one time, but I don't now. I regret I've wasted a lot of peoples' time and energy, sorry.

[The Iron Rebel]

Sad truth is it's unlikely anything will actually change because of what transpired, considering all of these revelations of abuse are reactionary when things have reached a boiling point. Plus how blurry the line between stalking and Intel gathering truly is regardless of what the pro-security types will tell you. Further considering that most abuse is incredibly based on a person or groups perceptions of what they think is abuse vs what they don't think is abuse.

In my time in NS I've seen and been subject to people who lie so well that it ends with the person they were lying too/manipulating getting in more trouble than the liar ever will because not everyone reacts to betrayal the same way, some people shell up and you find out later they were victims of something horrible, others act out and no one cares what caused them to act that way, they just dismiss them. I've been the victim of false/fake affections both in NS and sadly in RL because often I am too trusting of people and so often it blows up in my face, and given my struggles to communicate I end up coming off badly because I react with raw emotion.

On my record includes bans from New Earth, Islandia and Grand Central, but no one knows that the reason I got upset and spoke out in less than politically correct manners is because the founders of those regions made promises they then refused to keep when I asked them to give the help they promised, and in the case of New Earth and Islandia said founder proceeded to insult me for needing help. Said founder than used a puppet nation to write a slanderous flame bait filled article that was only allowed because the mods at the time didn't consider it flame baiting, but a few years later when I showed it to a current mod, they said it should have been taken down.

It's all perception, to many I'm a problem and because of rumors and bad perceptions of who I am without ever getting the full story, but the people who really know are still my friends.

However to be clear I feel bad for anyone who was deceived by Brunhilde or anyone similar and despite by doubts I hope someday people in NS actually become proactive about stuff like this instead of reactionary.

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

Well, Gameplay declines more each day.

Well, current NS Gameplay shows you that you can't trust even your internet pals.


Again, Koth's signature gets more true every day.


I hope we do create a database of NS users that have done such acts, like Todd said.

Heck, I would sponsor it, so would TRR and TEP probably.

[Reploid Productions]

Holy fucking hell, I'm offline most of the weekend and something like this drops. Just... wow.

Sadly, I think everyone else has rather effectively detailed why some sort of centralized NS predatory player database is an untenable solution- the politics, the bad apples that would try to politicize such OOC and out-of-game matters, who would run it, what criteria to get on it, etc. It does highlight some important points about not being too trusting of Faces on A Screen though, and imparting the lesson of acceptable paranoia to newcomers is something everyone in the community can do.

And while NS moderation cannot act on offsite materials, if someone has been sexually harassed, propositioned, etc on-site, hit us up with the links. As the May Massacre demonstrated, the team's tolerance for such is extremely low and bordering on non-existent.

[Fauxia]

Wow...

[Astarial]

And while NS moderation cannot act on offsite materials, if someone has been sexually harassed, propositioned, etc on-site, hit us up with the links. As the May Massacre demonstrated, the team's tolerance for such is extremely low and bordering on non-existent.

Yeah.

You know what the result of you all repeating this line, over and over and over again, is? Cause it's not impressing all of us with how seriously you take this shit.

It's reminding predators that as long as they keep it in their pants on nationstates.net subdomains, and confine their harassment to other platforms, they are free to continue trolling for targets.

And when they're actually caught? New name, new nation, new region with new victims. And there's nothing any of us can do about it.

Well.

You could.

[Vuori Kunin-Grrs]

And while NS moderation cannot act on offsite materials, if someone has been sexually harassed, propositioned, etc on-site, hit us up with the links. As the May Massacre demonstrated, the team's tolerance for such is extremely low and bordering on non-existent.

Yeah.

You know what the result of you all repeating this line, over and over and over again, is? Cause it's not impressing all of us with how seriously you take this shit.

It's reminding predators that as long as they keep it in their pants on nationstates.net subdomains, and confine their harassment to other platforms, they are free to continue trolling for targets.

And when they're actually caught? New name, new nation, new region with new victims. And there's nothing any of us can do about it.

Well.

You could.

NationStates-related off-site harassment is not regulated, I believe, as Moderation can't manage what happens off-site. Even if a player becomes DoS on NS, they can still freely roam in offsite NS-related platforms. Therefore, we essentially have to cope with the risk of practicing NS on off-site platforms.

[Astarial]

NationStates-related off-site harassment is not regulated, I believe, as Moderation can't manage what happens off-site. Even if a player becomes DoS on NS, they can still freely roam in offsite NS-related platforms. Therefore, we essentially have to cope with the risk of practicing NS on off-site platforms.

I wish - oh, how I wish! How desperately and fervently I wish! How deeply in the core of my very being I wish! - that DoS players, and off-site admins, were the problem.

Oh, to live in such a world. What a wonderful world it would be!

Sadly, the problems we face are, well, quite the opposite of that.

[Aurum Raider]

NationStates-related off-site harassment is not regulated, I believe, as Moderation can't manage what happens off-site. Even if a player becomes DoS on NS, they can still freely roam in offsite NS-related platforms. Therefore, we essentially have to cope with the risk of practicing NS on off-site platforms.

I wish - oh, how I wish! How desperately and fervently I wish! How deeply in the core of my very being I wish! - that DoS players, and off-site admins, were the problem.

Oh, to live in such a world. What a wonderful world it would be!

Sadly, the problems we face are, well, quite the opposite of that.

If I sent you a screenshot of X delegate I just happen to not like ganging up on one person, text logs, etc, would you believe me? If the moderator is there offsite and are seeing it happen it's one thing.

But do you honestly believe that if they started to act on things that are offsite, that they can't verify to be true, that someone wouldn't take advantage of that?

It's not that they aren't taking offsite evidence because of negligence. It's because they can't take offsite evidence without reasonable doubt that it had been faked.

[Astarial]

If I sent you a screenshot of X delegate I just happen to not like ganging up on one person, text logs, etc, would you believe me? If the moderator is there offsite and are seeing it happen it's one thing.

But do you honestly believe that if they started to act on things that are offsite, that they can't verify to be true, that someone wouldn't take advantage of that?

It's not that they aren't taking offsite evidence because of negligence. It's because they can't take offsite evidence without reasonable doubt that it had been faked.

This is an excuse. It is a cop-out, pure and simple. It is an abdication of responsibility.

Anybody who has read the thread on Europeia's forum - a thread that we cannot link here, a thread whose contents we cannot discuss here, a thread we can only reference obliquely, even though the perpetrator has admitted their guilt on this site can see that this is so.

The Europeian admins are to be commended for the extensive lengths they went to to authenticate the evidence they were provided - evidence that did not come from their forum, that did not come from their region, and that required extensive checking of RL records and even money - and verify the complaints against the perpetrator. It was a lot of work, and it took a lot of time, and they left no doubt that the allegations are true.

They left so little doubt, in fact, that the perpetrator had no choice but to confess. They did everything they have been accused of. They did everything for which they have been banned from the Europeian forum, and from many others to boot.

And what will the NS mods do, in the face of such overwhelming and verified evidence? In the face of an on-site confession?

Nothing.

Because it all happened off-site.

And what can we say about it, in the face of such overwhleming and verified evidence? In the face of an on-site confession?

Nothing.

Or we will be warned for "defamation".

The Europeian admins do not only investigate true complaints. Because they take sexual harassment seriously, they investigate all claims. Some are shown to be false. Some cannot be shown to be true. Some are a hell of a lot more work than others.

But what they don't do is throw up their hands just because it's hard.

[Todd McCloud]

I mean, I get the mods are to operate on the bounds of what occurs on this site, but if I had to think this over long and hard, they have to consider what occurs within the context of the game as well. A few years ago this was a difficult concept to argue, but now with the advent of NS++ and nswiki, nationstates as a whole is taking more ownership toward the community at-large. Many former and current mods are off-site moderators, on the NS General discord chat, and inherently involved in decidedly offsite activities such as NSWF.

Like it or not, it becomes more difficult to argue that offsite and onsite are completely separate and are totally different jurisdictions. I mean, I get how they might not rule on things like forum fights and community issues, I get that. But in situations such as this, and with Xor and the many others who have legit concerns as to behavior that kind of should be looked into, I think... I think it would be a good idea for mods to look at that provided they have a wealth of evidence at their disposal where the conclusions are obvious. As offsite mods, we are to generally let communities where they go and keep the job of admining and playing different, but must step in when the community or players within it are threatened, and take the lumps when people don't understand.

It's a judgment call, but on matters like this, I would not mind if mods made a ruling for the interests of safety. I mean, many of the players here are kids. This stuff wasn't really around when I was a kid, but gosh, after going through the years here, it's a problem and something folks should face.

[Todd McCloud]

And while NS moderation cannot act on offsite materials, if someone has been sexually harassed, propositioned, etc on-site, hit us up with the links. As the May Massacre demonstrated, the team's tolerance for such is extremely low and bordering on non-existent.

The thing is these folks who do this stuff seem to be pretty crafty and are sure to not show any evidence on-site. And when things are obvious, even under the NS umbrella, that can come under debate.

We gotta make things safe for these guys here, bottom line. Quibbles and squabbles aside, along with the common NS banter, this goes beyond all of that. What we've seen recently are examples of individuals who had some really heavy stuff happen to them, and their stories are cautionary tales that brought harm to their lives through the interactions on NS, perhaps not on the site, but through the site and its operations. Fear's never a good emotion to operate under, but I do fear that these things might become more common, and result in more unfortunate outcomes that would devastate the community here.

There's gotta be a way to handle this stuff.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

And while NS moderation cannot act on offsite materials, if someone has been sexually harassed, propositioned, etc on-site, hit us up with the links. As the May Massacre demonstrated, the team's tolerance for such is extremely low and bordering on non-existent.

Yeah.

You know what the result of you all repeating this line, over and over and over again, is? Cause it's not impressing all of us with how seriously you take this shit.

It's reminding predators that as long as they keep it in their pants on nationstates.net subdomains, and confine their harassment to other platforms, they are free to continue trolling for targets.

And when they're actually caught? New name, new nation, new region with new victims. And there's nothing any of us can do about it.

Well.

You could.

This, and repeat again with DOS players trying to return to the community. Only a handful of regions actually have the resources to be able to chase this kind of thing down, and when they do, it's because someone's doing it as a full time job. When we get to that stage, it's not exactly a game anymore, is it?

[Glen-Rhodes]

I think the past couple pages about how offsite harassment is *currently* handled by offsite admins offers good reasons why NS doesn’t want to subsume everything under its own jurisdiction.

I agree that this is a problem that needs to be addressed. But NS is going to face all the same problems every offsite forum admin faces when dealing with behavior that didn’t happen under our watch (and which we only hear about second hand). We can’t expect things to be different just because it’s NS proper.

[Fauxia]

Is it the business of NS to go marching into discord or a forum or a social medium to spy on personal info? No way, and that would give NS a bad rep.

But if there’s incriminating evidence about something off-site, and incriminating evidence that it is someone on-site, if it’s something like sexual predatoring, something that serious, or hacking, NS should be protecting the community and keeping those people off-site.

That doesn’t mean they should actively be modding it. If they find out, that’s different. Nor should they be policing something like flaming. Just something that puts the players at serious risk (DOS-type stuff)

[Escade]

If I sent you a screenshot of X delegate I just happen to not like ganging up on one person, text logs, etc, would you believe me? If the moderator is there offsite and are seeing it happen it's one thing.

But do you honestly believe that if they started to act on things that are offsite, that they can't verify to be true, that someone wouldn't take advantage of that?

It's not that they aren't taking offsite evidence because of negligence. It's because they can't take offsite evidence without reasonable doubt that it had been faked.

This is an excuse. It is a cop-out, pure and simple. It is an abdication of responsibility.

Anybody who has read the thread on Europeia's forum - a thread that we cannot link here, a thread whose contents we cannot discuss here, a thread we can only reference obliquely, even though the perpetrator has admitted their guilt on this site can see that this is so.

The Europeian admins are to be commended for the extensive lengths they went to to authenticate the evidence they were provided - evidence that did not come from their forum, that did not come from their region, and that required extensive checking of RL records and even money - and verify the complaints against the perpetrator. It was a lot of work, and it took a lot of time, and they left no doubt that the allegations are true.

They left so little doubt, in fact, that the perpetrator had no choice but to confess. They did everything they have been accused of. They did everything for which they have been banned from the Europeian forum, and from many others to boot.

And what will the NS mods do, in the face of such overwhelming and verified evidence? In the face of an on-site confession?

Nothing.

Because it all happened off-site.

And what can we say about it, in the face of such overwhleming and verified evidence? In the face of an on-site confession?

Nothing.

Or we will be warned for "defamation".

The Europeian admins do not only investigate true complaints. Because they take sexual harassment seriously, they investigate all claims. Some are shown to be false. Some cannot be shown to be true. Some are a hell of a lot more work than others.

But what they don't do is throw up their hands just because it's hard.

It's my personal feeling that in the face of overwhelming evidence, of a community trying to figure out how to take care of our people - the vulnerable -that it is important to understand context:[link redacted by mod edit]

I don't know what the solution is. I agree that this game isn't just a game and that there might be some people who try to politicize things. Only recently, people attempted to politicize and smear a well-respected player with allegations that were not only unfounded and untrue but also disgusting and repulsive and those that picked up on them for political gain as well are of the same ilk. There was no solution there. All anyone can do is pretend to be neutral or some bullshit like that or try to block those individuals not just in the game but mentally as well.

At this point, though enough actual disgusting behavior and documented behavior happens that the excuse "on-site" and "off-site" don't really make sense. This game isn't only played onsite. That is a fact. Many aspects of this game are conducted on forums or servers or chats. Maybe moderation can't police them all but on-site moderation can take into account the massive effort made by a cadre of well respected players and their community to do something and can help rather than reiterate the one statement that does nothing to help.

I don't need to know how to easily fix the problem to argue that there needs to be a fix and ignoring it won't make it go away. "Don't sexually harass people. Don't use sexual stuff to manipulate people for political and other fucking things in a game or real life. Be a decent human being or get lost."

[Xoriet]

But if there’s incriminating evidence about something off-site, and incriminating evidence that it is someone on-site, if it’s something like sexual predatoring, something that serious, or hacking, NS should be protecting the community and keeping those people off-site.

This is the kind of thing that means something offsite, but onsite is totally inadmissible as more than a lookout:

[10/4/2014 2:27:14 PM] Xoriet Montresor: There's one thing I need to clear up now.
[10/4/2014 2:27:17 PM] Xoriet Montresor: You make threats.
[10/4/2014 2:27:25 PM] Xoriet Montresor: Do you mean them?
[10/4/2014 2:28:28 PM] Player Y: That's a deep psychological question
[10/4/2014 2:28:53 PM] Player Y: I can't say with absolute certainty.
[10/4/2014 2:29:39 PM] Player Y: But I would say yes I do mean them. I mean them with greater degree of certainty than me wanting to kill myself.
[10/4/2014 2:30:32 PM] Player Y: You have to understand that you are perfectly safe as long as you behave according to my wishes and expectations.
[10/4/2014 2:31:12 PM] Xoriet Montresor: =/
[10/4/2014 2:31:28 PM] Player Y: Is that the answer you were expecting?
[10/4/2014 2:32:04 PM] Xoriet Montresor: It was the one I was hoping you wouldn't give, but I expected it.
[10/4/2014 2:32:16 PM] Player Y: Why would you hope for me to not mean it?
[10/4/2014 2:32:23 PM] Player Y: You hoped that I was a liar?
[10/4/2014 2:32:38 PM] Xoriet Montresor: No, I was hoping that you were joking about those
[10/4/2014 2:32:43 PM] Player Y: Why?
[10/4/2014 2:32:51 PM] Player Y: You love me, right?
[10/4/2014 2:33:00 PM] Player Y: You want me to be happy
[10/4/2014 2:33:31 PM] Player Y: You will keep obeying me within reason.
[10/4/2014 2:33:49 PM] Player Y: You will trust me.
[10/4/2014 2:34:01 PM] Player Y: If I didn't mean all that stuff, how could you trust me?
[10/4/2014 2:34:05 PM] Xoriet Montresor: I trust you to kill me, apparently
[10/4/2014 2:34:51 PM] Player Y: It may not come to that. You need to remember to do as I say and you have to be honest with me.
[10/4/2014 2:35:21 PM] Xoriet Montresor: It's not particularly safe to meet someone who would happily kill you in person, is it?
[10/4/2014 2:35:42 PM] Player Y: It is if you love that person and trust them.
[10/4/2014 2:35:57 PM] Player Y: And you do, I know you do.
[10/4/2014 2:36:35 PM] *** Player Y picks up Xoriet's hand and squeezes gently ***
[10/4/2014 2:37:24 PM] Player Y: You won't die. I'm pretty sure you'll be safe.
[10/4/2014 2:37:33 PM] Player Y: I am responsible.
[10/4/2014 2:38:33 PM] Player Y: Tell me you understand.
[10/4/2014 2:38:58 PM] Player Y: Do you really think you're worth me dying for?

That is the kind of thing that happens offsite, and that is totally not applicable onsite. It seems explicit enough, doesn't it? But no, it's not enough, not unless the person responsible decides "Oh, sure, it's a great idea to say something like that onsite."

It is too easy for all of this to be set aside as "offsite". I'm not sure how one would even be able to make up some of this stuff.

I understand all of the issues that come with the territory for the mods and admins on the site. I understand rationally, but at the same time, I can't empathize.

I'm not sure that it has been considered enough that the longer these things go on, the more likely the victim and abuser are to actually meet. It is entirely possible that, as demonstrated above, one of these days the fact that offsite conversations have no bearing on what goes on here will not be enough, and someone could suffer consequences that go far beyond what they experienced online.

While I do, truly, understand that there is a reason that Admin/Mod has drawn this line, I also question whether or not they realize that the fact that these associations, with these players enabled onsite by their good behavior, could seriously end up with someone dead.

[Astarial]

But NS is going to face all the same problems every offsite forum admin faces when dealing with behavior that didn’t happen under our watch (and which we only hear about second hand). We can’t expect things to be different just because it’s NS proper.

Forget different. I would be happy for things to be the same. Being the same would be progress.

The Europeian admins do not only investigate true complaints. Because they take sexual harassment seriously, they investigate all claims. Some are shown to be false. Some cannot be shown to be true. Some are a hell of a lot more work than others.

But what they don't do is throw up their hands just because it's hard.

[Khronion]

And while NS moderation cannot act on offsite materials, if someone has been sexually harassed, propositioned, etc on-site, hit us up with the links. As the May Massacre demonstrated, the team's tolerance for such is extremely low and bordering on non-existent.

It's not a question of the team's tolerance: I don't think there's anyone who tolerates the presence of a predator. It's a question of policy and outcomes. The perspective that site admin cannot and should not take action on offsite misconduct seems at odds with the fundamental nature of this game and its expectations.

Given that Moderation essentially encourages players to form offsite forums and chat platforms for intra/interregional communication (and frankly, the sheer difficulty in organizing a region by RMB and telegram alone), it doesn't seem fair that NS administrative policy completely absolves itself of any responsibility when crafty predators take exploits outside of nationstates.net. We cannot relocate our regional operations onsite because an RMB, a WFE, and telegrams are not sufficient, and we cannot use the NS forums for running regional affairs due to existing rules and the need for private regional subforums to handle various aspects of internal affairs and governance.

I also believe that player communities are generally poorly-equipped to conduct sexual misconduct investigations (especially when misconduct crosses into legally actionable misconduct). Nor are we equipped to provide support for victims. Even for us, with a relatively experienced administration team, recent revelations of offsite behavior by a prominent player (which we continue to refer to in oblique phrasing for fear that we will be warned for misconduct) have rocked our team quite hard, as the player was present on our offsite Discord for several months. We are bracing ourselves to step up and provide support as necessary as victims come forward, a possibility we are resigned to, given the cosmopolitan nature of most player careers. I suspect that many are feeling similarly.

We can and do try to create policies to discourage such conduct, but there are genuine bad faith actors out there who want to prey on the vulnerable in our communities. This isn't a one-off isolated incident. It's a larger trend that we will continue to battle, and quite frankly, fail at battling without additional support. I think I speak for many when I state that this is, at best, frustrating. While we may not agree on what changes could be made, I think everyone does agree that more needs to be done, and we need site administration to take part in a meaningful discussion that is sensitive to the concerns and experiences of victims.

Everyone knows that screenshots can be faked, that allegations are not always sincere. But we aren't talking about isolated allegations with flimsy support. We are talking about cases where a bad actor has repeatedly engaged in reprehensible behavior toward multiple players. When offsite communities have found the expertise and resources needed to conduct an in-depth review to expose these individuals, players are left wondering why Moderation still will not entertain any sort of accommodation to protect players from known serial abusers where there is broad consensus and a preponderance of evidence that builds a strong case for probable cause.

I don't expect us to be able to come up with the broad, comprehensive solution that we all want which addresses each and every case, but we owe it to the victims to do more and at least make it very difficult for the worst actors from ever darkening our doorsteps ever again, and I think we would like site administration to engage with us on finding some sort of consensus.

[Vuori Kunin-Grrs]

If we are to have such a conversation, this should be taken to Moderation, I believe - we are currently derailing this thread.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Plenty of places out in the world act to remove dangers to their members, based on actions that did not explicitly occur in their domain, given the issues is a serious, IRL, issue like this. We're talking about people's lives being in danger, we're talking in many cases about serial, well-evidenced abusers, and the response is the same as if we were talking about a bit of name-calling occurring offsite..."not our place."

It's putting members of the site, many of whom are minors, within easy reach of these predators to strike again, to continue to use the site as a medium to connect with people and and commit their actions in areas defined by their connection to the site. It's undeniable that NS continues to be a medium, and intermediary, for these players to create new identities and strike again and again, even after being caught beyond a shred of a doubt, just because they only use the site to find new places to do it, and actually do it elsewhere (in places the site encourages users to create and use rather than the on-site forums for many purposes).

In short, the site passively serves to facilitate this issue by not taking action against being used as a medium for it.

I don't expect the site to proactively look for this offsite, etc etc, but when players are allowed to remain around even it's been reported with a stack of evidence, after site staff have even been administrators witnessing their actions elsewhere, that does not sit right with a lot of people.

I'll put it another way - we expect other offsite communities where these actions did not take place to ban these players as well, to protect their membership, by showing them the evidence, yes?

That same expectation carries over to the site proper, for many people.

We hear a lot of "we'd love to do that, but we can't" ... but the reasons for that "can't" forever seem a bit flimsy.

[Conservative Values]

Would an onsite ban even help? These predators are behaving on-site. They aren't a danger to people on-site. Moderation's DOSing of a player doesn't protect the users of a third party site he/she belongs to. And unless the Moderation team is going to publicly express their reasoning for these offsite bans.. It still comes down to the third party site admin making a judgement call about if this (now NS-banned for unknown reasons) user is a danger.

Given that Moderation essentially encourages players to form offsite forums and chat platforms for intra/interregional communication (and frankly, the sheer difficulty in organizing a region by RMB and telegram alone), it doesn't seem fair that NS administrative policy completely absolves itself of any responsibility when crafty predators take exploits outside of nationstates.net. We cannot relocate our regional operations onsite because an RMB, a WFE, and telegrams are not sufficient, and we cannot use the NS forums for running regional affairs due to existing rules and the need for private regional subforums to handle various aspects of internal affairs and governance.

This is the whole ballgame for me. NationStates is the only site I've ever been on that pushes a ton of player interaction off to other uncontrolled sites. This has a lot of very positive impacts, IMO, and the community is very decentralized and diverse. Each little sub community is very unique and has its own ways of doing things. But there is a nasty side to that decentralization. It wasn't ever made this way by design, this community has grown to what it is spontaneously and organically because regions needed more than they had so they found a way to get it.

In the current environment, I don't know what moderators are supposed to do other than what they do now. "Trusted" players lie about things you think they wouldn't - I've personally learned that in a very hard way. But I think the conversation is worth having if the problem is the current environment, and if this thing that spontaneously grew should be replaced. Especially since, when I started no one ways playing this game for more than 3 years. Now a good proportion of this thread are players that have been around for 10+ years - so we have to be in our mid-20s. There's a lot of concern there if you ask me.

EDIT: I think the suggestion by Vuori Kunin-Grrs to have a [DISCUSSION] thread in Moderation is a good one. I'd like to hear NS Moderation speak on this issue and hear some concerns from us, because what we're learning here and what we learned in the other thread (Xoriet's) is important.