Coalition Against the Ideology of Nazism

[Caelapes]

As, I hear, are most Nazis.

And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Does this mean that you will be branded with Nazism forever if you choose to remilitarize your region? Because I'd like to see you declared a Nazi on that count.

What?

Whoah, exactly as I said. This CAIN is just a ploy to get more raiding targets.

The Red Fleet has had Right To Life on our unraidable target list since before CAIN was ever planned. They have some pretty disgusting embassies -- Apartheid South Africa, which is a region that very seriously supports a return to apartheid in the so-called "white giant of a dark continent." But phew, it sure is good that RTL has some standards when it comes to embassies!

[Cresenthia]

And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Does this mean that you will be branded with Nazism forever if you choose to remilitarize your region? Because I'd like to see you declared a Nazi on that count.

What?

Whoah, exactly as I said. This CAIN is just a ploy to get more raiding targets.

The Red Fleet has had Right To Life on our unraidable target list since before CAIN was ever planned. They have some pretty disgusting embassies -- Apartheid South Africa, which is a region that very seriously supports a return to apartheid in the so-called "white giant of a dark continent." But phew, it sure is good that RTL has some standards when it comes to embassies!

They have better standards for embassies than you do for what constitutes a hateful ideology.

[LollerLand]

CAIN =/= TRF
If you want to discuss The Red Fleet's foreign policies do it in their gameplay thread. CAIN doesn't see Right to Life as a Nazi collaborator region. Period.

[United Massachusetts]

CAIN =/= TRF
If you want to discuss The Red Fleet's foreign policies do it in their gameplay thread. CAIN doesn't see Right to Life as a Nazi collaborator region. Period.

Yes, I'm sorry. I'll open a new topic in Gameplay. Thank you for your understanding; I'm just a bit frusturated.

[Drittes Deutsches Reich]

[...] They have some pretty disgusting embassies -- Apartheid South Africa, which is a region that very seriously supports a return to apartheid in the so-called "white giant of a dark continent." [...]

Now that you mentioned it, why doesn't CAIN target - or at the very least take notice to - regions that are openly, unashamedly, and violently racist? Why does CAIN limit itself solely to racists who call themselves "Nazis", instead of taking a stand against racism as a whole?

Admittedly, the acronym wouldn't be as cool-sounding as it currently is (CAR, anyone? I think I like ANSWER better, to be honest - you'll probably need to think it over.), but the organization as a whole would benefit, at the very least due to having more potential targets/nominated regions than the three CAIN currently has arrived at. I digress, but my point is valid, I believe.

[LollerLand]

[...] They have some pretty disgusting embassies -- Apartheid South Africa, which is a region that very seriously supports a return to apartheid in the so-called "white giant of a dark continent." [...]

Now that you mentioned it, why doesn't CAIN target - or at the very least take notice to - regions that are openly, unashamedly, and violently racist? Why does CAIN limit itself solely to racists who call themselves "Nazis", instead of taking a stand against racism as a whole?

Admittedly, the acronym wouldn't be as cool-sounding as it currently is (CAR, anyone? I think I like ANSWER better, to be honest - you'll probably need to think it over.), but the organization as a whole would benefit, at the very least due to having more potential targets/nominated regions than the three CAIN currently has arrived at. I digress, but my point is valid, I believe.

More regions could potentially be added in the future to the list of designated Nazi regions.

[Drittes Deutsches Reich]

Now that you mentioned it, why doesn't CAIN target - or at the very least take notice to - regions that are openly, unashamedly, and violently racist? Why does CAIN limit itself solely to racists who call themselves "Nazis", instead of taking a stand against racism as a whole?

Admittedly, the acronym wouldn't be as cool-sounding as it currently is (CAR, anyone? I think I like ANSWER better, to be honest - you'll probably need to think it over.), but the organization as a whole would benefit, at the very least due to having more potential targets/nominated regions than the three CAIN currently has arrived at. I digress, but my point is valid, I believe.

More regions could potentially be added in the future to the list of designated Nazi regions.

I don't doubt that; but if you do not widen your target criteria, you'll have a hard time adding regions such as - since we've already brought it up - Apartheid South Africa, as they (and many others like them) do not, as I said, explicitly call themselves "Nazis" or use Third Reich imagery, but are, nonetheless, ravenously racist.

There's been much controversy surrounding your nomination of KAISERREICH - a region which, admittedly, does actually have things that can be interpreted as being "Nazi", by your criteria. However, I sincerely doubt you'd be able to target (for example) ASA without considerable uproar - at least if you do so on the grounds of their being "Nazis". As it stands, since they have absolutely nothing explicitly linking them to (neo-)Nazism, they are a perfectly legit region, according to CAIN's charter, despite their outspoken racism. The absurdity of this is amplified by the fact that your very logo is specifically connoting opposition to "black"-vs-"white" racism - the exact kind of racism that ASA embodies - yet they are (and will continue to be, if things remain as they are) ignored by CAIN. This severely damages your credibility, if nothing else.

[Cormactopia II]

As it stands, since they have absolutely nothing explicitly linking them to (neo-)Nazism, they are a perfectly legit region, according to CAIN's charter, despite their outspoken racism.

CAIN not designating a region like Apartheid South Africa as a Nazi Region doesn't mean that CAIN regards such a region as "perfectly legit." The scope of CAIN's activity is limited to Nazism, by design. That doesn't mean CAIN is okay with regions that embrace fascism or other forms of ethnocentric authoritarianism; it just means those regions fall outside the scope of CAIN and won't be addressed by CAIN as an institution.

CAIN signatory regions can still invade such regions, as they can invade any region should they decide to do so. And one can easily make the argument that even if CAIN isn't going to officially address regions that aren't explicitly Nazi, they are providing a basic, minimal framework of cooperation that will enable individual, sovereign regions to network with each other and collaborate on joint action without CAIN coordination.

[Christian Democrats]

The Red Fleet has had Right To Life on our unraidable target list since before CAIN was ever planned.

That's good to know.

They have some pretty disgusting embassies

I agree! But an embassy isn't an endorsement of a region's ideology. Rather, it opens up a channel for dialogue. For more than five years, Right to Life has pursued gameplay goals as other regions do. In addition, it has sought to open embassies with as many anti-abortion regions as possible (regardless of other beliefs) and to reach out to other regions that might normally be closed off to the pro-life message.

As a matter of regional policy, we've avoided embassy exchanges with regions that are Nazi, in our own independent judgment, due to our belief that Nazis are not pro-life. They promote eugenic abortion and other forms of negative eugenics.

I'll be the first to admit that Right to Life's embassy program is, at first blush, relativistic. This is not a mistake. We believe the right to life is a foundational moral principle, that it is compatible with almost any culture or political ideology -- conservative, classical liberal/libertarian, progressive, nationalist, socialist, etc. In particular, the immorality of killing family members is self-evident.

[Drasnia]

In our outgoing president's judgment, the region was, by and large, anti-abortion, period.

As, I hear, are most Nazis.

This statement and what it implies (that sharing any belief no matter how basic with Nazis makes you a collaborator with them) is inaccurate and appalling. I can't even fathom how you came to the conclusion that Nazism is pro life, what with eugenics and all.

Edit: spelling

[Caelapes]

As, I hear, are most Nazis.

This statement and what it implies (that sharing any belief no matter how basic with Nazis makes you a collaborator with them) is inaccurate and appalling. I can't even fathom how you came to the conclusion that Nazism is pro life, what with eugenics and all.

Edit: spelling

It doesn't imply that anyone who agrees with any single tenet is a Nazi, so you can knock it off with the overly dramatic objections.

I never said Nazism is pro-life—I said, accurately, that it is anti-abortion.

[Aclion]

This statement and what it implies (that sharing any belief no matter how basic with Nazis makes you a collaborator with them) is inaccurate and appalling. I can't even fathom how you came to the conclusion that Nazism is pro life, what with eugenics and all.

Edit: spelling

It doesn't imply that anyone who agrees with any single tenet is a Nazi, so you can knock it off with the overly dramatic objections.

I never said Nazism is pro-life—I said, accurately, that it is anti-abortion.

Accurate would to call them "anti-choice"

[Stellonia]

This statement and what it implies (that sharing any belief no matter how basic with Nazis makes you a collaborator with them) is inaccurate and appalling. I can't even fathom how you came to the conclusion that Nazism is pro life, what with eugenics and all.

Edit: spelling

It doesn't imply that anyone who agrees with any single tenet is a Nazi, so you can knock it off with the overly dramatic objections.

I never said Nazism is pro-life—I said, accurately, that it is anti-abortion.

Nazism is not anti-abortion. The Nazi Party utilized abortion as a means of eugenics, including racial eugenics.

[Stellonia]

Now please, we already know that the Red Fleet has a bigoted vendetta against the pro-life movement. You don't need to remind us.

[SYG]

I am engrossed in some aspects of foreign affairs in Osiris, and Osiris happens to be a member region of CAIN, so I tend check the CAIN thread from time to time and the general discussion here hinders any possibility of myself, and many others in a similar case as mine, to see things involving CAIN that actually need our attention.

tl;dr Some of this discussion that obviously belongs in NSGeneral is pointless here, and there are some of us that don't want to read it but need to know what is going on in CAIN. Thanks.

[Drittes Deutsches Reich]

As it stands, since they have absolutely nothing explicitly linking them to (neo-)Nazism, they are a perfectly legit region, according to CAIN's charter, despite their outspoken racism.

CAIN not designating a region like Apartheid South Africa as a Nazi Region doesn't mean that CAIN regards such a region as "perfectly legit."

The fact that the CAIN only ever opposes a region if it has been designated as such says otherwise.

The scope of CAIN's activity is limited to Nazism, by design.

Obviously. The fact that it has been designed in such a way, however, does not make it beyond reproach. Indeed, it is its very design that I am criticizing, as it is flawed in the way I've pointed out.

That doesn't mean CAIN is okay with regions that embrace fascism or other forms of ethnocentric authoritarianism;

Fascism emphatically is not ethnocentric; what far-right ethnocentrist would believe what Mussolini had to say regarding ethnicity?
“Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today. [...] National pride has no need of the delirium of race.” - Benito Mussolini

it just means those regions fall outside the scope of CAIN and won't be addressed by CAIN as an institution.

What follows from this is the simple fact that CAIN does absolutely nothing against them - not even affording them a mention. This can hardly be interpreted as a condemnation of those racist regions, as you seem to propose.

And one can easily make the argument that even if CAIN isn't going to officially address regions that aren't explicitly Nazi, they are providing a basic, minimal framework of cooperation that will enable individual, sovereign regions to network with each other and collaborate on joint action without CAIN coordination.

Which is infinitely less helpful, and less reliable, than CAIN itself actually taking the initiative and calling for action against all regions that display the exact same attitude CAIN condemns Nazism for. It is pointless and inconsistent to condemn racists only if they call themselves "Nazis". That others can, as you say, "deal with" the other racists is technically true, but this excuse in itself is nothing more than shifting responsibility. CAIN is in a position to go against racism on the whole, so why not do it? Why delegate the task to other, potentially less capable, organizations?

In particular, the immorality of killing family members is self-evident.

So you're implying that killing people in general is a morally superior action as opposed to killing people of one's own family? That smells like nepotism to me - either condemn killing in general, or don't condemn it at all. In-group/out-group double standards like that are, needless to say, evidence of bad reasoning capabilities.

I never said Nazism is pro-life—I said, accurately, that it is anti-abortion.

Hitler would disagree:

“I recently read an article from the pen of some Herr Doktor advocating the prohibition of the sale in the occupied territories of contraceptives. If any criminal lunatic should really try to introduce this measure I’d soon have his head off! In view of the extraordinary fertility of the local inhabitants, we should be only too pleased to encourage the women and the girls to practise the arts of contraception at all times. Far from prohibiting the sale of contraceptives, therefore, we should do our utmost to encourage it. We should call on the Jews for help! With their unrivalled sense of commerce, they are the very people for the job!” – Adolf Hitler

Endorsing contraceptives but condemning abortion is inconsistent, therefore it follows that NS, at the very least, isn't anti-abortion.

Accurate would to call them "anti-choice"

As regards abortion, not really. See above.

[Drittes Deutsches Reich]

tl;dr Some of this discussion that obviously belongs in NSGeneral is pointless here, and there are some of us that don't want to read it but need to know what is going on in CAIN. Thanks.

You're right, I apologize.

[Melorian Republic]

I think most neo-Nazis are salvageable. A coalition to reach out to them would be much more admirable than a coalition to suppress them. If anything, CAIN is ingraining their nihilistic views; it's not getting rid of them.

I'm pretty sure actual Nazis aren't going to have their minds changed on an internet browser game.

Communism promotes class hate. "I hate you because you're from a certain social/economic group."

No, it doesn't. You don't know what you're talking about. Go read the Manifesto and tell me where it promotes hate of any group of people.

If we could win a world revolution without spilling a drop of blood, communists would jump at the chance.

Hear hear. (A little late but worth commending.)

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Sad to see my region is a part of this.

Not a Neo nazi or a fan of them but the 'Nazi Collaborator' definition is a week one.

[Christian Democrats]

I never said Nazism is pro-life—I said, accurately, that it is anti-abortion.

And this is why abortion was one of the charges at the Nuremberg trials?

Heinrich Himmler, Reich Leader of the SS and Chief of the German Police, was also the RKFDV. In his capacity as RKFDV he established the Staff Main Office (Stabshauptamt) with the defendant Ulrich Greifelt in charge. The Staff Main Office was responsible, among other things, for bringing "ethnic Germans" into Germany, for evacuating non-Germans from desirable areas in foreign lands, and for establishing new settlements of Germans and "ethnic Germans" in such areas. These activities involved transfer of populations, Germanization of citizens of other countries, deportation of Eastern workers, deportation to slave labor of members of other countries eligible for Germanization, kidnaping of so-called "racially valuable" children for Germanization, participation in the performance of abortions on Eastern workers, murder, and plunder of property.

Abortions. All known cases of pregnancy among deported Eastern slave workers were submitted to RuSHA. Examinations were conducted of the racial characteristics of the expectant mother and father. In the majority of instances, where the racial examinations yielded negative results showing that the expected child was not of "racial value", the Eastern women workers were induced or forced to undergo abortions. When the expected child was found to be of "racial value" it was taken shortly after birth, as described below in paragraph 13. The desired results of this systematic program of abortions were immediately to keep the women available as labor, and ultimately to reduce the populations of the Eastern nations. Abortions on Polish women in the General Government were also encouraged by the withdrawal of abortion cases from the jurisdiction of the Polish courts. The defendants Greifelt, Creutz, Meyer-Hetling, Schwarzenberger, Hofmann, Hildebrandt, Schwalm, Huebner, Lorenz, and Brueckner are charged with special responsibility for and participation in these crimes.

But even if it be assumed that all abortions were voluntary, they still constitute a crime. This was nothing more than another technique in furtherance of the basic crime of genocide and Germanization. It was even a crime under German law.

[P]rotection of the law was denied to the unborn children of the Russian and Polish women in Nazi Germany. Abortions were encouraged and even forced on these women.

Even if your major premise were true, your argument would be illogical.

All Nazis are opponents of abortion.
Right to Life is an opponent of abortion.
Therefore, Right to Life is Nazi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_undistributed_middle

In particular, the immorality of killing family members is self-evident.

So you're implying that killing people in general is a morally superior action as opposed to killing people of one's own family? That smells like nepotism to me - either condemn killing in general, or don't condemn it at all. In-group/out-group double standards like that are, needless to say, evidence of bad reasoning capabilities.

Murder is always wrong, but "(i)nfanticide, fratricide, parricide, and the murder of a spouse are especially grave crimes by reason of the natural bonds which they break" (CCC 2268).

[Phydios]

Even if your major premise were true, your argument would be illogical.

All Nazis are opponents of abortion.
Right to Life is an opponent of abortion.
Therefore, Right to Life is Nazi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_undistributed_middle

To put it another way, this is an example of your basic argument:

All botanists are scientists.
John Smith is a scientist.
Therefore, John Smith is a botanist.

Nazis simply do not oppose abortion, but even if they did, your argument for classifying RTL as Nazi on the basis of shared beliefs is still in shreds.

[LollerLand]

Even if your major premise were true, your argument would be illogical.

All Nazis are opponents of abortion.
Right to Life is an opponent of abortion.
Therefore, Right to Life is Nazi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_undistributed_middle

To put it another way, this is an example of your basic argument:

All botanists are scientists.
John Smith is a scientist.
Therefore, John Smith is a botanist.

Nazis simply do not oppose abortion, but even if they did, your argument for classifying RTL as Nazi on the basis of shared beliefs is still in shreds.

CAIN =/= TRF
If you want to discuss The Red Fleet's foreign policies do it in their gameplay thread. CAIN doesn't see Right to Life as a Nazi collaborator region. Period.

[Drittes Deutsches Reich]

I never said Nazism is pro-life—I said, accurately, that it is anti-abortion.

And this is why abortion was one of the charges at the Nuremberg trials?

The Nuremberg trials weren't exactly famous for their fair, objective treatment of the defendents, though, so I wouldn't really count on its verdicts or accusations as indisputable evidence.

So you're implying that killing people in general is a morally superior action as opposed to killing people of one's own family? That smells like nepotism to me - either condemn killing in general, or don't condemn it at all. In-group/out-group double standards like that are, needless to say, evidence of bad reasoning capabilities.

Murder is always wrong, but "(i)nfanticide, fratricide, parricide, and the murder of a spouse are especially grave crimes by reason of the natural bonds which they break" (CCC 2268).

Given that one doesn't choose one's relatives, I'd say it's quite the logical fallacy to condemn him/her any more for the murder of a relative (which he never chose in the first place) than for the murder of anyone else.

But this isn't the place for such discussions, so I'll leave it at this.

[Sygian II]

But this isn't the place for such discussions, so I'll leave it at this.

Thank goodness somebody understands. >_>

[Sedgistan]

CAIN =/= TRF
If you want to discuss The Red Fleet's foreign policies do it in their gameplay thread. CAIN doesn't see Right to Life as a Nazi collaborator region. Period.

Given TRF are a CAIN member and have argued here that RTL should be considered a Nazi collaborator region, it would not be considered threadjacking/off-topic to continue to discuss in this thread whether they should be.