Osiris | Danburg Seized!

[Syberis]

I mean, I'd say I "called" people from Europeia who were involved in the original mess trying to claim that Osiris was wrong legally in an attempt to discredit the decision we made when the meat and potatoes of this loss was the fact that there was a ton of disrespect and ghosting going on (and not just from the president, so that can't even claim that little mess is resolved), but that's like calling the sun coming up this morning.

Maybe if they had communicated with us earlier they wouldn't be on here trying to pretend we're unreasonable and mean to save their own reputations.

[Onderkelkia]

I mean, I'd say I "called" people from Europeia who were involved in the original mess trying to claim that Osiris was wrong legally in an attempt to discredit the decision we made when the meat and potatoes of this loss was the fact that there was a ton of disrespect and ghosting going on (and not just from the president, so that can't even claim that little mess is resolved), but that's like calling the sun coming up this morning.

Maybe if they had communicated with us earlier they wouldn't be on here trying to pretend we're unreasonable and mean to save their own reputations.

I don't know who you mean by "people from Europeia who were involved in the original mess trying to claim that Osiris was wrong legally", but I should be clear that I spoke on behalf of Balder earlier in this thread, and have acted for Balder, or in one joint meeting the IJCC as a whole, throughout the affair.

I cannot comment on the communications between Europeia and Osiris, except to say that the Europeian presidents clearly handled them very badly.

In terms of communications between Balder and Osiris, when Balder learned that Osiris had an issue with IJCC Standing Orders, we contacted Osiris with an offer to discuss it. Altino indicated that she did not wish to discuss it with Balder, but otherwise I would have happily laid out the correct legal interpretation. At all times Balder was more than willing to discuss the matter and address any concerns that Osiris had. Subsequent to that conversation, Osiris has now released a statement alleging, amongst other things, a violation of the Balder-Europeia Treaty, something which is nothing to do with Osiris and is squarely within Balder's interests, arguing on the basis of an incorrect interpretation of IJCC Standing Orders which I offered to discuss with them.

That is why it has been necessary for Balder to set the record straight, quite apart from any issues between Europeia and Osiris.

[Altinsane]

With all due respect, Onder, I think you're investing far too much in the importance of Balder in this situation. It is not very important. Balder was listed in a long list of treaties with several other regions just to demonstrate exactly how far the consequences of Euro's decision to essentially blow Osiris off could potentially reach. Osiris speaks with concern for our own region alone, but made continuous attempts to try to explain to Europeia that if this is how we saw it, we might not be the only ones, and that if we didn't figure this out and work toward an answer, they were putting all of their alliances at risk. All of them. I have tried for weeks to get replies from Europeia on the subject at all and been met with silence and DMs from Balder. But it isn't Balder's place to solve this issue for them. This is a big one. This is something that ignoring wasn't an option. I have tried to be very patient to the changing government there and re-explain the situation to several new parties, all of whom eventually ghosted me. The fact of the matter is whether you interpret that provision as we do in Osiris or not, Europeia was still not even willing to look in to the possibility that they might be violating ALL of their treaties. Do you know how insane that is? That they weren't even willing to talk about it with one of their own allies? I used to be a citizen of Europeia. I go out of my way to keep in contact with HEM and Euro's presidents on friendly terms. Of course I wasn't out to hurt them. I just wanted to find a solution. But they weren't willing to talk for Osiris and weren't willing to talk for every single one of their alliances either.

I did not want to talk to Balder on the issue because it isn't Balder's problem. If I have a problem with Euro's standing because of something in IJCC, then my problem is with Euro. It isn't on me to go over Euro's head and approach IJCC for a problem that I have with Euro. Going to a supraregional alliance to solve an issue I have with only one region in it is a ridiculous expectation and frankly further indication that Euro is no longer in charge - which I am still very, very uncomfortable with and trying to ignore. Europeia and Balder are not the same region. Europeia needs to fix their own problems - yet all of my discussions were inevitably directed to you and now you stand as the loudest voice in trying to explain away their behavior while they quietly whisper that it "really isn't fair for us to pick on them like that and honestly they've done nothing wrong."

Really I think I've just taken to heart what you all told me during our conversation with IJCC as a whole. That is a good NS philosophy and I think I'll be using it. But. It is not your business and not your concern. Balder's name on a list doesn't make it your concern. If you have a concern, it is with Euro and any ramifications or clarifications that you may need to make with them on your own Treaty, not with me. I'm not here to give my seal of approval to any other region's interpretation of their own treaty. This is an open forum, of course you're free to make your case. But do keep in mind, every justification from Onder is a justification on behalf of Europeia from another region which allows them to further ignore the problem and keep ghosting, as they have been for weeks. It is kind of proving my point.

[King HEM]

But do keep in mind, every justification from Onder is a justification on behalf of Europeia from another region which allows them to further ignore the problem and keep ghosting, as they have been for weeks. It is kind of proving my point.

Maybe it was missed, the President of Europeia has personally apologized to you on behalf of the government and made a statement in this thread making it clear that Europeia takes responsibility for what went wrong.

What would Europeia need to do in order to be un-ghosting the situation? Snapchat?

[Onderkelkia]

With all due respect, Onder, I think you're investing far too much in the importance of Balder in this situation. It is not very important.

I am sorry, but you are overlooking Balder's sovereign interests in the question of (1) whether the IJCC Standing Orders, and in a particular an amendment to IJCC Standing Orders proposed by Balder, obviates the sovereign control of regional militaries and (2) whether the Balder-Europeia Treaty is violated.

In all frankness, Balder's interest in relation to both those questions should be so blindingly obvious that it should not need to be stated.

Balder's stake in public debate over the meaning of IJCC Standing Orders amendment - as a change proposed by Balder to secure its interests within the IJCC - should be self-evident. If it is falsely alleged that the IJCC Standing Orders violate IJCC members' sovereignty, then that is clearly relevant to Balder, both in terms of safeguarding our own sovereignty, our own commitments to our allies and the viability of IJCC as an instrument of our military power.

You alleged that Europeia is in breach of the Europeia-Balder Treaty. Indeed, you listed this treaty first and proceed to make a specific argument as to why the Europeia-Balder Treaty was covered with the other treaties you listed. If Europeia is in breach of the Europeia-Balder Treaty because IJCC means it has surrendered sovereign control of its military, then so is Balder. Now that might be a peripheral consideration for you, but it has implications for Balder.

If your complaints solely pertain to Europeia, you should have limited your statement strictly to communications issues between yourself and the Europeian presidents. Instead, as part of your statement, you revealed the specifics of your bilateral discussions with me as in my capacity as Statsminister of Balder. If you mention (and indeed criticise) other regions and the IJCC as an institution as part of your statement, then they are involved, like it or not.

If you are going to criticise IJCC or IJCC's Standing Orders, then is clearly something which Balder has as much of a stake in as Europeia.

Osiris speaks with concern for our own region alone, but made continuous attempts to try to explain to Europeia that if this is how we saw it, we might not be the only ones, and that if we didn't figure this out and work toward an answer, they were putting all of their alliances at risk. All of them

It is not proper to invoke the Europeia-Balder Treaty to make a public argument that Europeia is putting its entire diplomatic network at risk. The Balder-Europeia Treaty is not a piece of diplomatic leverage to be used against Europeia by a third party, but is something which has implications for Balder.

If you do wish to make this argument, then you should at least expect Balder to respond to explain why our treaty is not being violated by either party.

If you are trying to tell other regions that their treaty with Europeia is being violated, then do not be surprised when they tell you it isn't.

But. It is not your business and not your concern. Balder's name on a list doesn't make it your concern. Balder's name on a list doesn't make it your concern. If you have a concern, it is with Euro and any ramifications or clarifications that you may need to make with them on your own Treaty, not with me. I'm not here to give my seal of approval to any other region's interpretation of their own treaty.

It is our business. It is our concern. Objectively, the terms of IJCC Standing Orders are far more Balder's concern than they are the concern of Osiris. If Balder advises you that we have an interest in something, then you should accept and respect that, rather than refusing to recognise our stake in the issue.

Balder is not going to be told that this is none of our business.

You say you are not here to "give my seal of approval to any other region's interpretation of their own treaty". You have however ventured to give your seal of disapproval, by alleging that Europeia as an IJCC member (and therefore also Balder as an IJCC member) is in breach of the Europeia-Balder Treaty.

That is what you did here:

And I say alliances because here's the rub - it isn't just Osiris' treaty that they've breached.

Europeia writes cookie-cutter treaties with all of their allies to the point that they each have the same typo in them. It's kind to even say that they've written their treaties at all. They've copied and pasted them. In every single one of Europeia's treaties save one ancient treaty that they have with LKE, they have included the following section:

With Balder -

(c.) Both Balder and Europeia shall not cede their sovereign control over their respective military forces to any supraregional alliance. Both regions may continue to enter into bilateral and multilateral agreements for common defense

[...]
With the exception of Balder (and I think it's fair to still include Balder, considering the exact same language is in every other treaty, so the definition seems implied), "sovereign control" is defined as being able to have the final say in how their troops are being used.

Balder therefore makes clear that there is no such breach. This is because each region retains the final say over participation in each mission.

[Swift Sure]

I mean, I'd say I "called" people from Europeia who were involved in the original mess trying to claim that Osiris was wrong legally in an attempt to discredit the decision we made when the meat and potatoes of this loss was the fact that there was a ton of disrespect and ghosting going on (and not just from the president, so that can't even claim that little mess is resolved), but that's like calling the sun coming up this morning.

Maybe if they had communicated with us earlier they wouldn't be on here trying to pretend we're unreasonable and mean to save their own reputations.

I believe that Osiris was justified in their decision to end the Treaty of Anubis; mistakes were made from our end during the initial incident during the raid on the Warzones and also in the followup response to that. Both of the Presidents during this period resigned due to real life reasons and not only were not communicating with officials in Osiris but also to officials in Europeia as well which made it very difficult from the perspective of finding solutions given that the Presidency is the one that has power over other departments. The lack of communication with Osiris from the Presidency was not borne out of any ill will or disrespect.

It is important to note that jurisdiction over all legal matters is a power by the High Court in Europeia. No matter how great the intentions or how brilliant individuals both within and outside Europeia are in terms of questioning or trying to interpret what our laws mean, only the High Court has the ability to do this as it is the authority over all legal matters in Europeia.

Overall, I am greatly saddened by the end of this treaty. It had been something that I had worked hard on as President in Europeia and had been proud of. I think it is unfortunate that it also had to end on a bitter public note. As I was discussing with Cormac this morning, it is ideal but perhaps a lucky occurance if treaties end on amicable terms.

[Syberis]

Onder, at the risk of being banned for Defender-Francoist Rhetoric, Balder is a window dressing in a cited example, and you're bitching over the content of a couple lines of text. For someone who's such an expert on legal matters, you're either ignoring or unable to understand that what you've cited is not the main reason. If this is how Balder acts when we cut off one of their friends for misconduct, perhaps we should all have a very serious sitdown there.

Balder went into damage-control mode when two allies split, instead of meeting with allies to figure things out. In fact, Balder's anger is the most public response, as Euro has actually tried to smooth things over and address the actual concern. I would go so far as to say that Balder is more desperately trying to control the narrative than Osiris and Europeia. I would also go so far as to say that you've set up different goalposts on a different field in a match between two totally different regions and then tried to win that match against Osiris. Your behavior is nonsensical, has little to no bearing on the matter at hand, and only serves to insert Balder into a communications dispute between Euro and Osiris, which the specific details of were laid out here.

[Altinsane]

With all due respect, Onder, I think you're investing far too much in the importance of Balder in this situation. It is not very important.

I am sorry, but you are overlooking Balder's sovereign interests in the question of (1) whether the IJCC Standing Orders, and in a particular an amendment to IJCC Standing Orders proposed by Balder, obviates the sovereign control of regional militaries and (2) whether the Balder-Europeia Treaty is violated.

In all frankness, Balder's interest in relation to both those questions should be so blindingly obvious that it should not need to be stated.

Balder's stake in public debate over the meaning of IJCC Standing Orders amendment - as a change proposed by Balder to secure its interests within the IJCC - should be self-evident. If it is falsely alleged that the IJCC Standing Orders violate IJCC members' sovereignty, then that is clearly relevant to Balder, both in terms of safeguarding our own sovereignty, our own commitments to our allies and the viability of IJCC as an instrument of our military power.

You alleged that Europeia is in breach of the Europeia-Balder Treaty. Indeed, you listed this treaty first and proceed to make a specific argument as to why the Europeia-Balder Treaty was covered with the other treaties you listed. If Europeia is in breach of the Europeia-Balder Treaty because IJCC means it has surrendered sovereign control of its military, then so is Balder. Now that might be a peripheral consideration for you, but it has implications for Balder.

If your complaints solely pertain to Europeia, you should have limited your statement strictly to communications issues between yourself and the Europeian presidents. Instead, as part of your statement, you revealed the specifics of your bilateral discussions with me as in my capacity as Statsminister of Balder. If you mention (and indeed criticise) other regions and the IJCC as an institution as part of your statement, then they are involved, like it or not.

If you are going to criticise IJCC or IJCC's Standing Orders, then is clearly something which Balder has as much of a stake in as Europeia.

Osiris speaks with concern for our own region alone, but made continuous attempts to try to explain to Europeia that if this is how we saw it, we might not be the only ones, and that if we didn't figure this out and work toward an answer, they were putting all of their alliances at risk. All of them

It is not proper to invoke the Europeia-Balder Treaty to make a public argument that Europeia is putting its entire diplomatic network at risk. The Balder-Europeia Treaty is not a piece of diplomatic leverage to be used against Europeia by a third party, but is something which has implications for Balder.

If you do wish to make this argument, then you should at least expect Balder to respond to explain why our treaty is not being violated by either party.

If you are trying to tell other regions that their treaty with Europeia is being violated, then do not be surprised when they tell you it isn't.

But. It is not your business and not your concern. Balder's name on a list doesn't make it your concern. Balder's name on a list doesn't make it your concern. If you have a concern, it is with Euro and any ramifications or clarifications that you may need to make with them on your own Treaty, not with me. I'm not here to give my seal of approval to any other region's interpretation of their own treaty.

It is our business. It is our concern. Objectively, the terms of IJCC Standing Orders are far more Balder's concern than they are the concern of Osiris. If Balder advises you that we have an interest in something, then you should accept and respect that, rather than refusing to recognise our stake in the issue.

Balder is not going to be told that this is none of our business.

You say you are not here to "give my seal of approval to any other region's interpretation of their own treaty". You have however ventured to give your seal of disapproval, by alleging that Europeia as an IJCC member (and therefore also Balder as an IJCC member) is in breach of the Europeia-Balder Treaty.

That is what you did here:

And I say alliances because here's the rub - it isn't just Osiris' treaty that they've breached.

Europeia writes cookie-cutter treaties with all of their allies to the point that they each have the same typo in them. It's kind to even say that they've written their treaties at all. They've copied and pasted them. In every single one of Europeia's treaties save one ancient treaty that they have with LKE, they have included the following section:

With Balder -


[...]
With the exception of Balder (and I think it's fair to still include Balder, considering the exact same language is in every other treaty, so the definition seems implied), "sovereign control" is defined as being able to have the final say in how their troops are being used.

Balder therefore makes clear that there is no such breach. This is because each region retains the final say over participation in each mission.

Thank you for your opinion.


Europeia's normal policy is the only one of IJCC member regions' which is in actuality superseded by IJCC's new provision on the ejection of natives. Balder and LKE have no such ethical qualms on the subject, so there is no policy to supersede. This provision is written for Europiea and only affects Europiea unless either Balder or LKE add a heartbeat for natives into their normal policy. Furthermore, Balder and LKE's treaties with Osiris don't mention anything about military sovereignty. I don't know about your treaties with other regions - that isn't something that I've looked into - but Osiris has no qualms with you in IJCC because we don't believe you're doing anything wrong. I don't understand why you're trying to invent wrongdoing on your part so that you can insert yourself in this situation. Thank you, Balder, for clarifying your own interpretation of Euro's treaty obligations with yourselves. Your ideas on the matter came as no surprise. If you were willing to overlook WritingLegend inappropriately using your troops, I didn't expect you to suddenly turn tables over this. Balder's name was listed first, yes, and a special clarification was made in my initial statement for Balder, yes, but this was entirely because Balder's wording was different than the rest. I was not going out of my way to point extra fingers at Balder. I can reasonably understand why you might feel that way, but it was not my intent. If you have further qualms between yourself and IJCC, it is not because Osiris pressed them upon you. We are not interested in fabricating or entertaining the fabrication of issues that do not exist.

[Jar Wattinree]

Onder, at the risk of being banned for Defender-Francoist Rhetoric, Balder is a window dressing in a cited example, and you're bitching over the content of a couple lines of text. For someone who's such an expert on legal matters, you're either ignoring or unable to understand that what you've cited is not the main reason. If this is how Balder acts when we cut off one of their friends for misconduct, perhaps we should all have a very serious sitdown there.

Balder went into damage-control mode when two allies split, instead of meeting with allies to figure things out. In fact, Balder's anger is the most public response, as Euro has actually tried to smooth things over and address the actual concern. I would go so far as to say that Balder is more desperately trying to control the narrative than Osiris and Europeia. I would also go so far as to say that you've set up different goalposts on a different field in a match between two totally different regions and then tried to win that match against Osiris. Your behavior is nonsensical, has little to no bearing on the matter at hand, and only serves to insert Balder into a communications dispute between Euro and Osiris, which the specific details of were laid out here.

It's so hot this burning.

[The Sygian]

Why do people have to beef on Friday nights when I'm downtown playing Pokemon Go?

I'm still catching up on the thread, but as a Guardian that voted in favor of this repeal, it's obvious where I stand on the matter. For a region that claims to have everything going for them, Europeia sure doesn't know how to properly conduct diplomatic affairs. The delegate of Osiris, or any GCR for that matter, does not belong in a room of Europeians attempting to coerce her into conducting the affairs of Osiris in their favor. I was not aware at the time that this has happened on multiple occasions, but when I was informed, my only reaction was that of disgust.

This is not the Europeia that I know. Not that I was ever an uber enthusiast of anything Europeia has ever done, but the Europeia that I know does not elect officials that choose or threaten to resign when presented with a legitimate diplomatic issue facing them. What poor behavior this is.

Lastly, I praise the IJCC for proving their competence in the political sphere. I hoped that the IJCC would work. Unfortunately, it has proven to do the exact opposite as its precursor. You even admitted it, Onder. Not only is the IJCC the same treaty as the UIAF, but it also causes more problems than it solves.

I would say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but instead I'll say, "it's friggin broke, so throw it in the garbage."

Hail Osiris.

[Queen Yuno]

My following comment is completely off topic because I haven’t read any of the long posts above mine (so take this with a grain of salt:)

Speaking as a past raider, I find it completely absurd that you would stop the ejection of natives on a region you just raided. If you’re raiding, go hard or go home, or what’s the point of the raid? Why are you trying to save a Warzone? Completely absurd. Remove the anti-raiding law clauses if you wanna raid with regions who want to raid. Don’t get cold feet and back out during the middle of an operation that’s not a raid on any of your allies. That’s a breach of military sportsmanship. I hope the leader of that military operation learns from this experience. I’ve spent most of my time as a military commander on NS, and the most important thing I learned is that when you accept a deal and do an op, don’t back out before it’s finished unless it’s an emergency, because backing out could cost the operation. For example, you raid a region, get the delegacy, about to password the region but whoops you just lost 1/2th your allied pilers, that means all yours months spent planning that raid goes down the drain. Defenders come in and ban you out and you’re done for as if the raid and all your hard efforts never occurred in the first place. Anyone would be upset/mad when their allies military leader can’t follow this basic military sportsmanship. Anyway, this is not a common sense constructive criticism on Europeia the full region, just the commander of Euro military that lead that operation needs to learn to not make deals they can’t follow through, or follow through said deals once they’re already made, because I don’t think a few seconds of cold feet is worth the risk of what takes so many weeks to accomplish (any raid op takes weeks to prepare and complete.)

EDIT: Someone just told me my post was off topic, so I'll add this: Now say that you DID make a mistake and did exactly that ^ What you do is confess + be transparent about it, and do not try to cover it up. For example, I've made mistakes in the past and didn't try to hide them, instead owned up to them and was better off because of it.

Thanks for reading!

[Onderkelkia]

Onder, at the risk of being banned for Defender-Francoist Rhetoric, Balder is a window dressing in a cited example, and you're bitching over the content of a couple lines of text. For someone who's such an expert on legal matters, you're either ignoring or unable to understand that what we've cited is not the main reason.

The "main reason" for Osiris terminating its treaty with Europeia - assuming you mean Europeia's communication failures, rather than the IJCC Standing Orders - is not Balder's concern. There is no reason for Balder to address that. If you want to argue that issue against Europeia, that is your business.

A "couple of lines of text" alleging that the Balder-Europeia Treaty is being violated, as well as an entire paragraph and more dedicated to discussing Osiris's communications with the Statsminister of Balder and non-Europeian IJCC officials, is clearly a matter which is relevant Balder on its own terms.

Balder has commented on the aspects which are germane to Balder's interests, without straying into wider issues.

If this is how Balder acts when we cut off one of their friends for misconduct, perhaps we should all have a very serious sitdown there.

Frankly, it is Balder and not Osiris which could have the only legitimate complaint about how either region has treated the other over this incident.

The details of my conversations with the Pharaoh have been published for the entire world without my permission. Osiris has ventured to suggest that that the Balder-Europeia Treaty is being violated without consulting Balder. And when we seek to clarify the matter, we are told it is none of our business.

If Balder's "anger" is evident in our response, it is because we are offended and surprised by this treatment.

Balder went into damage-control mode when two allies split, instead of meeting with allies to figure things out.

On the contrary, Balder did all it reasonably could to amicably resolve the dispute involving IJCC prior to the announcement by Osiris.

Balder has simply set the record straight on statements which infringe on Balder's interests.

Europeia's normal policy is the only one of IJCC member regions' which is in actuality superseded by IJCC's new provision on the ejection of natives. Balder and LKE have no such ethical qualms on the subject, so there is no policy to supersede. This provision is written for Europiea and only affects Europiea unless either Balder or LKE add a heartbeat for natives into their normal policy. Furthermore, Balder and LKE's treaties with Osiris don't mention anything about military sovereignty. I don't know about your treaties with other regions - that isn't something that I've looked into - but Osiris has no qualms with you in IJCC because we don't believe you're doing anything wrong. I don't understand why you're trying to invent wrongdoing on your part so that you can insert yourself in this situation. Thank you, Balder, for clarifying your own interpretation of Euro's treaty obligations with yourselves. Your ideas on the matter came as no surprise. If you were willing to overlook WritingLegend inappropriately using your troops, I didn't expect you to suddenly turn tables over this. Balder's name was listed first, yes, and a special clarification was made in my initial statement for Balder, yes, but this was entirely because Balder's wording was different than the rest. I was not going out of my way to point extra fingers at Balder. I can reasonably understand why you might feel that way, but it was not my intent. If you have further qualms between yourself and IJCC, it is not because Osiris pressed them upon you. We are not interested in fabricating or entertaining the fabrication of issues that do not exist.

The only issue that has been "fabricated" is any suggestion that the change to IJCC Standing Orders, proposed by Balder in order to avoid damage to our own missions or those of our allies, undermines sovereign control of regional militaries or results in a breach of the Balder-Europeia Treaty by either party.

The interpretation of IJCC Standing Orders is squarely within Balder's remit as a member of IJCC. If any party makes a statement about IJCC Standing Orders, in particular a statement alleging that they undermine regional sovereignty, it is natural for Balder to explain why that is not the case.

The Balder-Europeia Treaty is likewise a matter in which Balder's interests are implicated, including if the violation is only alleged on Europeia's part. In any case, however, if IJCC Standing Orders did prevent Europeia from withdrawing their forces from IJCC operations on "ethical" grounds, they would also prevent the LKE or Balder from doing so, even if the LKE or Balder do not currently have such rules. In legal terms, the impact on their sovereignty would be equal. As it happens, IJCC Standing Orders do no such thing. Each region retains full discretion to withdraw IJCC forces from any operation as they wish.

Balder is not "willing to overlook WritingLegend inappropriately using your troops" and Balder did not advise you that we were. Rather, Balder ensured that a change to IJCC Standing Orders was put in place to prevent repetition of the incident and ensure that our troops could not be inappropriately used again. Furthermore, in relation to the allegation that Writinglegend edited a log to conceal his actions, we advised you that it was a matter for us to deal with and we would address it. The allegation is still being pursued as an IJCC matter between Balder, Europeia and the LKE. There is no cover-up of any matters.

[Syberis]

If this is how Balder acts when we cut off one of their friends for misconduct, perhaps we should all have a very serious sitdown there.

Frankly, it is Balder and not Osiris which could have the only legitimate complaint about how either region has treated the other over this incident.

.......

I don't even have any snark for this. That is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard. I cannot wrap my head around the assertion that our Pharaoh was ignored by the government of Euro is not a "legitimate complaint" and that Balder is somehow the only region with a potential grievance when the treaty broken was between Euro and Osiris. The assertion that Balder is the only one that should be offended by that takes another mental leap that I don't understand at all.

There's no arguing it because it comes from a totally different planet than the one we live on. There's no arguing it the same as there's no arguing with the assertion that the sky is green. To assume that's the case requires such a disconnect from reality that to argue it is impossible.

[Onderkelkia]

Frankly, it is Balder and not Osiris which could have the only legitimate complaint about how either region has treated the other over this incident.

.......

I don't even have any snark for this. That is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard. I cannot wrap my head around the assertion that our Pharaoh was ignored by the government of Euro is not a "legitimate complaint" and that Balder is somehow the only region with a potential grievance when the treaty broken was between Euro and Osiris.

You are reading this wrongly.

I never stated anything about complaint that Osiris might justifiably have about the actions of Europeia. Indeed, earlier I observed that two Europeian presidents clearly handled their communications with Osiris very badly.

In response to your own comment about Balder's reaction, my statements specifically pertained to any complaint that Balder or Osiris might have against each other (i.e. not Europeia).

Just because Europeia may have treated Osiris badly does not give Osiris the right to show disregard for the concerns and interests of Balder.

[Jar Wattinree]

.......

I don't even have any snark for this. That is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard. I cannot wrap my head around the assertion that our Pharaoh was ignored by the government of Euro is not a "legitimate complaint" and that Balder is somehow the only region with a potential grievance when the treaty broken was between Euro and Osiris.

You are reading this wrongly.

I never stated anything about complaint that Osiris might justifiably have about the actions of Europeia. Indeed, earlier I observed that two Europeian presidents clearly handled their communications with Osiris very badly.

In response to your own comment about Balder's reaction, my statements specifically pertained to any complaint that Balder or Osiris might have against each other (i.e. not Europeia).

Just because Europeia may have treated Osiris badly does not Osiris the right to show disregard for the concerns and interests of Balder.

I don't recall Osiris having problems with Balder when it was Euro it has problems with. That's the subject of all of the hoopaloo right now.

[Syberis]

You are reading this wrongly.

I never stated anything about complaint that Osiris might justifiably have about the actions of Europeia. Indeed, earlier I observed that two Europeian presidents clearly handled their communications with Osiris very badly.

In response to your own comment about Balder's reaction, my statements specifically pertained to any complaint that Balder or Osiris might have against each other (i.e. not Europeia).

Just because Europeia may have treated Osiris badly does not Osiris the right to show disregard for the concerns and interests of Balder.

I don't recall Osiris having problems with Balder when it was Euro it has problems with. That's the subject of all of the hoopaloo right now.

^
The problem I have is with Balder making it about them when the details about Balder were mere window-dressing and really minor details so that people understand the situation as a whole.

We published this, and Euro went "yeah, our bad." Balder went "This isn't technically illegal look at all this you have no right to interpret these weird and contradictory laws and..."

Literally the only thing you could have accomplished with your behavior is trying to make this about Balder. Which, fine, I guess. Makes my life easier. You have changed, rather fundamentally, my view on Balder and my own approach going forward.

[Altinsane]

Do we have a problem then, Onder? Balder and Osiris? Thank you for repeating your barely related opinion. I'm not going to repeat mine - I'm not fond of arguing in circles. Thank you also for finally acknowledging the realistic upset in Osiris on this issue, aside from the focus that you for some reason have attempted to press on it. I feel this is progress. But it is not progressive to create problems where they do not exist. I can only work in the realm of what is right and what is reasonable, and it's neither to follow any line of logic to some sort of interregional diplomatic tragedy based on the opinion of a region that is not involved in the root cause of this upset when the region that I'm actually dealing with here has already apologized and promised that if not for Osiris, then for their other allies, they will make an effort to run things differently. An admirable reply, if you ask me. My region felt disrespected and slighted by Europiea and had no love for the place as a result only days ago. Today they have a respect for Euro's response and honesty. Look what a difference reality makes. They agree that our complaint was legitimate, your queen agrees that our complaint was legitimate. Any assertion that your sole opinion delegitimizes our complaints or overrules the opinions of literally everyone else involved is silly. And I'm getting really tired of hearing that things that happened to me aren't my concern. WL misled Osiris and deleted evidence of that in my DMs. The only reference to his doing so is in my raid server. I'm glad that your secret stealth investigation is ongoing, but it's not going to be much of an investigation with me on the outside of it, since all evidence of the occurrence happened with me and my raid was the one affected by it. My region was the one publicly ridiculed for it. My hours were the ones spent explaining the situation to not only IJCC members, but our other friends and allies present as well. My troops were disoriented when they lost half of their forces and had to figure out how to make their raids work. The person who triggered that raid has now quit Legion and as far as I'm aware entirely quit raiding. In what world is that not my concern. In what world is a dispute solely between Osiris and Europeia not legitimate and replaced by the only one, true legitimate complaint: someone was mean to Balder.

You don't make any sense. Osiris does not have a problem with Balder. Or we didn't, anyway, before we were forced into alternate universe arguments. If you would like to begin having problems, that will be something that you chose. Our alliance means that I would prefer to work diplomatically with you. It does not mean that I will be tricked, spat on, or pushed around and just nod my head while it happens.

[The Sygian]

Aren't government officials supposed to serve their respective region to their best interests? That should include doing the opposite of beefin it up with their oldest ally, should it not? As Statsminister of Balder, you're really not doing your job pal.

[Benjabobaria]

Just because Europeia may have treated Osiris badly does not give Osiris the right to show disregard for the concerns and interests of Balder.

The vast majority of the problems that Osiris has with Balder originated because you started running your mouth in this thread.

[Th Empire of Wymondham]

Aren't government officials supposed to serve their respective region to their best interests? That should include doing the opposite of beefin it up with their oldest ally, should it not? As Statsminister of Balder, Osiris' beloved sister sinker, you're really not doing your job pal.

Imperialists in general have never been out to do the right by allies, all their interested in is advancing the imperialist sphere's best interests, it just lays bare the true nature of the imperialist sphere, they reinterpret there treaties as and when it suits them and care not for alliances or other regions unless it serves there own interests, their sole goal is the manipulation of other regions for there own gain.
On another point i just wanted to say how impressed I am by onder's ability to write a wall of text and somehow manage to say absolutely nothing of substance or meaning

[The Sygian]

The Osirans have spoken!

Hail Osiris!

[Potchen]

Aren't government officials supposed to serve their respective region to their best interests? That should include doing the opposite of beefin it up with their oldest ally, should it not? As Statsminister of Balder, Osiris' beloved sister sinker, you're really not doing your job pal.

Imperialists in general have never been out to do the right by allies, all their interested in is advancing the imperialist sphere's best interests, it just lays bare the true nature of the imperialist sphere, they reinterpret there treaties as and when it suits them and care not for alliances or other regions unless it serves there own interests, their sole goal is the manipulation of other regions for there own gain.
On another point i just wanted to say how impressed I am by onder's ability to write a wall of text and somehow manage to say absolutely nothing of substance or meaning

This is a rather lofty tone from someone who attained Citizenship in Europeia apparently for the sole purpose of disseminating information which was protected by the citizenship masking. I find it rather funny that Europeia had been accused of spying in this thread when you were called on it as your post was discovered in a publicly viewable space of the Osiris Forum.

As a side-note: the "(c.)" in treaties is a holdover from Invisionfree forums which resulted in "(c)" displaying the copyright symbol and it is also present in some of the older laws of Europeia.

[Syberis]

Imperialists in general have never been out to do the right by allies, all their interested in is advancing the imperialist sphere's best interests, it just lays bare the true nature of the imperialist sphere, they reinterpret there treaties as and when it suits them and care not for alliances or other regions unless it serves there own interests, their sole goal is the manipulation of other regions for there own gain.
On another point i just wanted to say how impressed I am by onder's ability to write a wall of text and somehow manage to say absolutely nothing of substance or meaning

This is a rather lofty tone from someone who attained Citizenship in Europeia apparently for the sole purpose of disseminating information which was protected by the citizenship masking. I find it rather funny that Europeia had been accused of spying in this thread when you were called on it as your post was discovered in a publicly viewable space of the Osiris Forum.

As a side-note: the "(c.)" in treaties is a holdover from Invisionfree forums which resulted in "(c)" displaying the copyright symbol and it is also present in some of the older laws of Europeia.

Are you saying your treaties are classified? That's a joke.

[Tim-Opolis]

It's quite clear who the Statsminister of Balder seems to value more as an ally between Europeia and Osiris, and that's just based on what was said in this thread alone. If you go beyond the GP forum, most people have known this for quite a while, but seeing it all in public is quite amusing.

[Roavin]

38 minutes ago: Onder Kelkia ordered the closure of embassies between Balder and Osiris.