Osiris | Danburg Seized!

[Klaus Devestatorie]

What is "equally flammable"? I can gush about the old days before Halcones ruined everything with his spreadsheets, but even I can't remember raider groups not playing favourites, or not being influenced into some level of moderation by less willing allies. You'd have to go back to pre-influence and/or pre-founder days for that.

"Equally flammable" means every target was burned. No matter how big or how small, they were all gone in the end; a statue dedicated to their ruthlessness. A symbol of why every defender absolutely needed to show up. Because something was actually at stake every single update. Every region mattered. Even the dead ones. Now, I really hate to say it, most of them don't matter. Most of them just to have to scrub the walls and they're back to business as usual.

Never happened in my lifetime, except maybe Halcones/TBR. You have to go much further back than me. Unknown's method of operation was to occupy, defeat the defender liberation (back when there wasn't a rate limit to banjections), and then leave so we could hit something else next week. The internal guidelines even said we should detag it on the way out unless they were really unpleasant about it. Forced refounds were saved for places we actually had a grudge against.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Raiders ejected a native in A Liberal Haven literally an hour ago.

Oh yeah, that one time how many weeks ago? There was a time when everything burned. No exceptions. Raiding has evolved so much now, right? Raiders compromise. They spare so many wide-eyed natives because they're not important enough to give raiders that PR they crave so much. How exciting....

You have some serious rose-tinted spectacles on. You're harking back to a state of play that never existed.

Also A Liberal Haven has literally just two natives.

[Quebecshire]

It does not matter if a region has 1 or 100 natives. Raiding is and always will be an act that, at its core, represents the degradation of the regional unit and of community. This trend will fade and the regions that have chosen to make petty griefers of themselves will be met with either inactivity or brutal regime change.

[The Church of Satan]

except maybe Halcones/TBR.

That's what I'm talking about. They were the monster that made showing up so important. How they did it was bad and nobody should repeat that. However, they did something that made a difference. Every region they went after was either going to be destroyed or it was going to be saved. There was no in-between. Is TBR what made raiders become so soft? Are they worried that they're going to end up just like them? You don't have to repeat the worst part to do what they did at their core. The only thing that's gonna shake R/D up is another region crasher. A military that does it every time, because they can. A military that says to defenders "Go ahead and stop me if you can." Bring chaos to order. And there's a lot of order out there that could use a little chaos.

[Zizou]

It does not matter if a region has 1 or 100 natives. Raiding is and always will be an act that, at its core, represents the degradation of the regional unit and of community. This trend will fade and the regions that have chosen to make petty griefers of themselves will be met with either inactivity or brutal regime change.

16 years in operation and 200 endos beg to differ

[Lord Dominator]

CoS, if you very much want a certain type of raider to exist that doesn’t presently, have you considered starting it yourself?

[Wascoitan]

It does not matter if a region has 1 or 100 natives. Raiding is and always will be an act that, at its core, represents the degradation of the regional unit and of community. This trend will fade and the regions that have chosen to make petty griefers of themselves will be met with either inactivity or brutal regime change.

lol, k bud. just keep on waiting for that day when there is finally no more raiding, hasn't happened in the last 20 years but I promise you, it'll happen eventually any day now.

[Quebecshire]

It does not matter if a region has 1 or 100 natives. Raiding is and always will be an act that, at its core, represents the degradation of the regional unit and of community. This trend will fade and the regions that have chosen to make petty griefers of themselves will be met with either inactivity or brutal regime change.

16 years in operation and 200 endos beg to differ

I can make IRLs pile too, but you'll have to wait for the Day of Reckoning in a few years to figure that out. I seem to remember the better part of May through October being dead updates where tumbleweeds rolled across the tag fields. Don't worry, we'll be back to that soon enough.

[The Church of Satan]

CoS, if you very much want a certain type of raider to exist that doesn’t presently, have you considered starting it yourself?

In the past, yes. Many times. But my thrill comes from fighting it, as I had done before. I came to terms with that years ago. Being that brand of villain isn't who I am. I wouldn't enjoy it as much. Surely there's some raider maverick out there willing to upstage the likes of today's corporate raiders.

[Lord Dominator]

16 years in operation and 200 endos beg to differ

I can make IRLs pile too, but you'll have to wait for the Day of Reckoning in a few years to figure that out.

Planning a raid on TBH certainly is ambitious.

[Quebecshire]

I can make IRLs pile too, but you'll have to wait for the Day of Reckoning in a few years to figure that out.

Planning a raid on TBH certainly is ambitious.

You might want to double check the thread we're in.

[Lord Dominator]

Planning a raid on TBH certainly is ambitious.

You might want to double check the thread we're in.

Ah right, forgot about your “plan” to coup the raider region that typically does the least raiding. Truly, it shall be a great reckoning when that happens.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

except maybe Halcones/TBR.

That's what I'm talking about. They were the monster that made showing up so important. How they did it was bad and nobody should repeat that. However, they did something that made a difference. Every region they went after was either going to be destroyed or it was going to be saved. There was no in-between. Is TBR what made raiders become so soft? Are they worried that they're going to end up just like them? You don't have to repeat the worst part to do what they did at their core. The only thing that's gonna shake R/D up is another region crasher. A military that does it every time, because they can. A military that says to defenders "Go ahead and stop me if you can." Bring chaos to order. And there's a lot of order out there that could use a little chaos.

TBR, powered by illegally effective recruitment that massively absued manual telegrams to recruit pilers + an unhealthy cult culture to retain them, and facing next to no sizable defender resistance/liberation beachhead/influence drain, still took months at a time to try and clear out regions.

What's happened since? Defenders have 180 updaters. Fewer founderless regions exist at all, and those that do have several years more influence. Raiding still doesn't have those numbers, and more people are legally recruting their share of new people than ever. Anyone who's been able to help contribute those numbers, i.e. independents, have expressedly not wanted that. Etc, etc.

Raiders want to have fun. Clearing a region or being feared are fun things, yeah, but you know what isn't fun? Spending 6+ months sitting on our ass in ALH to ban *two* total ancient nations, and uh.... not be able to attempt a refound or anything anyways because it's liberated, and once again, the vast majority of gcr's and large ucr's don't support such things and will prevent it through the SC?

If this was 2012 with 2022's numbers, or if there was a big red "burn region" button, maybe these things would be possible. But instead, you have a serious reality break with the very core math of the game and the state of founderless regions on NS.

Even frontiers, which will encourage founderless targets, aren't a guarantee to lead to more destruction - as long as the SC gets to stop the change back to a stronghold, is the majority of the WA going to *endorse* destruction?

[Zizou]

16 years in operation and 200 endos beg to differ

I can make IRLs pile too, but you'll have to wait for the Day of Reckoning in a few years to figure that out. I seem to remember the better part of May through October being dead updates where tumbleweeds rolled across the tag fields. Don't worry, we'll be back to that soon enough.

A heavy promise coming from a faction that's sustained a month long L in ALH

[Wascoitan]

Planning a raid on TBH certainly is ambitious.

You might want to double check the thread we're in.

right, cause you're definitely gonna coup osiris. remind me again whose org couldn't even successfully del bump LWU and TBH even when we weren't bothering to defend ourselves? as a proud osiran, I'm not concerned about you.

[The Church of Satan]

TBR, powered by illegally effective recruitment that massively absued manual telegrams to recruit pilers + an unhealthy cult culture to retain them, and facing next to no sizable defender resistance/liberation beachhead/influence drain, still took months at a time to try and clear out regions.

What's happened since? Defenders have 180 updaters. Fewer founderless regions exist at all, and those that do have several years more influence. Raiding still doesn't have those numbers, and more people are legally recruting their share of new people than ever. Anyone who's been able to help contribute those numbers, i.e. independents, have expressedly not wanted that. Etc, etc.

Raiders want to have fun. Clearing a region or being feared are fun things, yeah, but you know what isn't fun? Spending 6+ months sitting on our ass in ALH to ban *two* total ancient nations, and uh.... not be able to attempt a refound or anything anyways because it's liberated, and once again, the vast majority of gcr's and large ucr's don't support such things and will prevent it through the SC?

If this was 2012 with 2022's numbers, or if there was a big red "burn region" button, maybe these things would be possible. But instead, you have a serious reality break with the very core math of the game and the state of founderless regions on NS.

Even frontiers, which will encourage founderless targets, aren't a guarantee to lead to more destruction - as long as the SC gets to stop the change back to a stronghold, is the majority of the WA going to *endorse* destruction?

I'm not particularly good with equations and making spreadsheets. Despite all your explanations, a region crasher military would simply turn those "fewer founderless regions" into even fewer founderless regions. And you can't discount the noobs in many of those regions with founders. I see them all the time. They have so much power in their home regions and yet if someone ejected them, many of them wouldn't know they still had it if they were sent to TRR. It's astounding, but it's the truth. Human error accounts for far more than some would like to admit.

[Quebecshire]

You might want to double check the thread we're in.

Ah right, forgot about your “plan” to coup the raider region that typically does the least raiding.

Since when does this change anything? I seem to recall Miravana gloating about raiding Warzone Europe since it is "defender aligned" - when one of its members had attended one liberation.

Osiris is a raider region.
It has the invader tag and supports invasions.
It is run, nay, vassalized, by raiders.
It is piling for a griefing operation as we speak.
It shares a base of operations with three other griefing regions.

The infrequency by which it raids, which is inversely related to the competence and activity of its government at a given moment, is irrelevant. If The Black Hawks, Lone Wolves United, or The Brotherhood of Malice went founderless tomorrow, I would raid it. BoM hadn't raided since 2015 until very recently, and I still would've raided it if given the opportunity between then and its revival. Why should Osiris be given special treatment? It won't be.

A raider region is a raider region, and a griefer region is a griefer region. Osiris is no exception.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

except maybe Halcones/TBR.

That's what I'm talking about. They were the monster that made showing up so important. How they did it was bad and nobody should repeat that. However, they did something that made a difference. Every region they went after was either going to be destroyed or it was going to be saved. There was no in-between. Is TBR what made raiders become so soft? Are they worried that they're going to end up just like them? You don't have to repeat the worst part to do what they did at their core. The only thing that's gonna shake R/D up is another region crasher. A military that does it every time, because they can. A military that says to defenders "Go ahead and stop me if you can." Bring chaos to order. And there's a lot of order out there that could use a little chaos.

Nobody is going to be that villain for you. There's simply not enough difference between what happens to someone prepared to be that person, and what happens to people accused of the kind of OOC stuff we can't talk about here. It's not a natural state of mind for anyone and the rhetoric, even entirely IC, eventually becomes exhausting.

[King Nephmir II]

The underlying problem here is how difficult it is to make impactful and meaningful raids now. Influence was added as a mechanic long ago without the invision of what NationStates would be like many years in the future. That said, every time Raiders gain an advantage, a technical feature is implemented to nerf them, often suggested by defenders. The most recent one that comes to mind is the banjection rate limit, but I'm sure there's a more recent example than that. What kind of motivation is it to make meaningful raids when every time raiders gain the upper hand there's a new feature added to nerf them? When has a feature been added to specifically *help* raiders?

As much as I think tagging in and of itself is fruitless, it still has the ability to maintain activity and engagement in the raider community, and honestly I've been enjoying it since my return. It doesn't feel meaningful, but it's still fun to work with so many raiders across different organizations regardless.

[The Church of Satan]

Nobody is going to be that villain for you. There's simply not enough difference between what happens to someone prepared to be that person, and what happens to people accused of the kind of OOC stuff we can't talk about here. It's not a natural state of mind for anyone and the rhetoric, even entirely IC, eventually becomes exhausting.

That's simply not true. I played that role several years ago in another game. It was fun. Our "Salt the Land" policy garnered many enemies, and yet our vast territory, coupled with the widespread destruction, inspired many to join the fight against us. It was glorious! Then again, I was a different person back then.

The underlying problem here is how difficult it is to make impactful and meaningful raids now. Influence was added as a mechanic long ago without the invision of what NationStates would be like many years in the future. That said, every time Raiders gain an advantage, a technical feature is implemented to nerf them, often suggested by defenders. The most recent one that comes to mind is the banjection rate limit, but I'm sure there's a more recent example than that. What kind of motivation is it to make meaningful raids when every time raiders gain the upper hand there's a new feature added to nerf them? When has a feature been added to specifically *help* raiders?

As much as I think tagging in and of itself is fruitless, it still has the ability to maintain activity and engagement in the raider community, and honestly I've been enjoying it since my return. It doesn't feel meaningful, but it's still fun to work with so many raiders across different organizations regardless.

See? This guy gets it!

[Pterodaxtyl]

Ah right, forgot about your “plan” to coup the raider region that typically does the least raiding.

Since when does this change anything? I seem to recall Miravana gloating about raiding Warzone Europe since it is "defender aligned" - when one of its members had attended one liberation.

Osiris is a raider region.
It has the invader tag and supports invasions.
It is run, nay, vassalized, by raiders.
It is piling for a griefing operation as we speak.
It shares a base of operations with three other griefing regions.

The infrequency by which it raids, which is inversely related to the competence and activity of its government at a given moment, is irrelevant. If The Black Hawks, Lone Wolves United, or The Brotherhood of Malice went founderless tomorrow, I would raid it. BoM hadn't raided since 2015 until very recently, and I still would've raided it if given the opportunity between then and its revival. Why should Osiris be given special treatment? It won't be.

A raider region is a raider region, and a griefer region is a griefer region. Osiris is no exception.

A little odd to be plotting a GCR coup in their own thread, but okay.

Nobody is going to be that villain for you. There's simply not enough difference between what happens to someone prepared to be that person, and what happens to people accused of the kind of OOC stuff we can't talk about here. It's not a natural state of mind for anyone and the rhetoric, even entirely IC, eventually becomes exhausting.

That's simply not true. I played that role several years ago in another game. It was fun. Our "Salt the Land" policy garnered many enemies, and yet our vast territory, coupled with the widespread destruction, inspired many to join the fight against us. It was glorious! Then again, I was a different person back then.

The underlying problem here is how difficult it is to make impactful and meaningful raids now. Influence was added as a mechanic long ago without the invision of what NationStates would be like many years in the future. That said, every time Raiders gain an advantage, a technical feature is implemented to nerf them, often suggested by defenders. The most recent one that comes to mind is the banjection rate limit, but I'm sure there's a more recent example than that. What kind of motivation is it to make meaningful raids when every time raiders gain the upper hand there's a new feature added to nerf them? When has a feature been added to specifically *help* raiders?

As much as I think tagging in and of itself is fruitless, it still has the ability to maintain activity and engagement in the raider community, and honestly I've been enjoying it since my return. It doesn't feel meaningful, but it's still fun to work with so many raiders across different organizations regardless.

See? This guy gets it!

Its funny to me that you're so invested in how raiding should be when you're not a raider. Things are not and likely will not be like "the good old days" again. The game has changed so much since then.
But as LD said, by all means if you're so insistent that a raider org should work how you think it should, feel free to join an org and try to make the change yourself

[King Nephmir II]

I mean that also means that detagging is even more "pointless", considering most of the regions get tagged don't even have natives, so maybe stop detagging

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Nobody is going to be that villain for you. There's simply not enough difference between what happens to someone prepared to be that person, and what happens to people accused of the kind of OOC stuff we can't talk about here. It's not a natural state of mind for anyone and the rhetoric, even entirely IC, eventually becomes exhausting.

That's simply not true. I played that role several years ago in another game. It was fun. Our "Salt the Land" policy garnered many enemies, and yet our vast territory, coupled with the widespread destruction, inspired many to join the fight against us. It was glorious! Then again, I was a different person back then.

Then play it yourself. We're not obligated to make this game fun for you, just as defenders have no obligation to make raiding easy for us.

[The Church of Satan]

Its funny to me that you're so invested in how raiding should be when you're not a raider. Things are not and likely will not be like "the good old days" again. The game has changed so much since then.
But as LD said, by all means if you're so insistent that a raider org should work how you think it should, feel free to join an org and try to make the change yourself

Then play it yourself. We're not obligated to make this game fun for you, just as defenders have no obligation to make raiding easy for us.

To quote the wisdom of Moltar,

"Alright, listen up. Today, we are talking about something very important. Villains, bad guys, the heavies. Webster defines a villain as "truly malicious, a scoundrel." We don’t get enough credit. What’s a hero without a villain? Bad guys make life more interesting. My favorite bad guy (besides myself) is Lotor. Remember him? He seems kind of wimpy, but he’s got personality. And let’s not forget Mumm-ra. Another one of my favorites. You know it’s not easy going out there to make the world unsafe for superheroes. They always seem to come out on top. Being a villain is a thankless job, but we always have more fun along the way. That’s what being bad is all about."

I'm the "good guy" at heart. The good guys need a truly bad villain to inspire them and future good guys. You're our motivation, raiders! Without you, what point is there to us and everything we do? Our voraciousness is derived from your own.

[Minskiev]

Why can't we all just be friends