Osiris | Danburg Seized!

[Altino]

In TNP's defense, many of their most vocal aggressors have apologized to me and some of them to Cormac as well, and I have spoken with one of their admins who I trust will make genuine efforts to turn the atmosphere in TNP around.

I think that the reactions that I got in TNP are indicative of a long-time issue with older players that's leeching into a probably unintentional culture of the place with their newer folks. Newer nations see older people that they trust talking certain ways and saying certain things and they accept that as the correct way to be acting. Older people know to keep their heads down, but newer people don't, and that's why it has come to light now.

I hold hope that this will be an experience for all of us that sheds light in dark places and makes a kinder community for all of us. Osiris certainly understands what having an unkind community feels like, and we understand what it feels like when it seems like the world is against you so you want to center in on yourself and spit at others. But we understand too that change is possible and that it is so much healthier and so much freer. That's just my opinion. But I have confidence that at least some members of TNP see these problems for what they are and will work hard to see positive growth in their home.

[Syberis]

I hope TNP will take this opportunity to change their OOC behavior towards players they disagree with . I know it's an easy trap to fall into, and one that I'll openly admit I've fucked up from time to time (Particularly Glen, tbh. I do apologize for any fuckery, and wish I could have phrased the apology as more than a parenthetical, but I'll address it between him and I soon, I hope).

My concern is that this is a lot of the same stuff I've seen from TNP before, and I've heard from their admins before that this time things will improve. The last time it got this bad, it exploded when one of their admins at the time did their damndest to run a player from the game. I hope they fix it permanently this time. The region deserves better. The community deserves to hold themselves to a higher standard considering their pedigree.

[Cormactopia Prime]

In TNP's defense, many of their most vocal aggressors have apologized to me and some of them to Cormac as well, and I have spoken with one of their admins who I trust will make genuine efforts to turn the atmosphere in TNP around.

I think that the reactions that I got in TNP are indicative of a long-time issue with older players that's leeching into a probably unintentional culture of the place with their newer folks. Newer nations see older people that they trust talking certain ways and saying certain things and they accept that as the correct way to be acting. Older people know to keep their heads down, but newer people don't, and that's why it has come to light now.

I hold hope that this will be an experience for all of us that sheds light in dark places and makes a kinder community for all of us. Osiris certainly understands what having an unkind community feels like, and we understand what it feels like when it seems like the world is against you so you want to center in on yourself and spit at others. But we understand too that change is possible and that it is so much healthier and so much freer. That's just my opinion. But I have confidence that at least some members of TNP see these problems for what they are and will work hard to see positive growth in their home.

I really agree with everything Altino said here, and I genuinely wish people in TNP the best regardless of the outcome of my citizenship application.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

In TNP's defense, many of their most vocal aggressors have apologized to me and some of them to Cormac as well, and I have spoken with one of their admins who I trust will make genuine efforts to turn the atmosphere in TNP around.

I think that the reactions that I got in TNP are indicative of a long-time issue with older players that's leeching into a probably unintentional culture of the place with their newer folks. Newer nations see older people that they trust talking certain ways and saying certain things and they accept that as the correct way to be acting. Older people know to keep their heads down, but newer people don't, and that's why it has come to light now.

I hold hope that this will be an experience for all of us that sheds light in dark places and makes a kinder community for all of us. Osiris certainly understands what having an unkind community feels like, and we understand what it feels like when it seems like the world is against you so you want to center in on yourself and spit at others. But we understand too that change is possible and that it is so much healthier and so much freer. That's just my opinion. But I have confidence that at least some members of TNP see these problems for what they are and will work hard to see positive growth in their home.

I really agree with everything Altino said here, and I genuinely wish people in TNP the best regardless of the outcome of my citizenship application.

Well, I know we've had some bad relations but I'm happy to say I voted in favour of it today. Best of luck.

[Imperium of Josh]

I am personally glad to see messages of encouragement and support in response to this. Treating this like the same old dogpile type approach GP has often used will likely get us nowhere as a community. By no means is this an issue that only TNP has ever faced; we all face the ongoing struggle in our communities to keep everything as kind and welcoming as possible. As such, the NationStates community as a whole must work together to prevent OOC toxic behaviour.

Apologies are certainly a good thing, and it's heartwarming to hear that several have been made, especially hearing from those who were wronged in the first place. I'm given hope by Altino's belief that there are elements within TNP who see the issue and will work hard to mitigate it. For my part, I wish TNP the best of luck in doing so

[Drop Your Pants]

It's amusing that Osiris decided to bring this to GP to get people on their side. All of this could have been sorted diplomatically between your two regions (or just even between Cormac and TNP).

However, it isn't ever okay in real life or on NS to spread unfounded rumours about a person, or to treat them as deserving of contempt and mistreatment.

*looks at Osiris members attacks on NPO in recent months* Good one

[Bowzin]

It's amusing that Osiris decided to bring this to GP to get people on their side. All of this could have been sorted diplomatically between your two regions (or just even between Cormac and TNP).

However, it isn't ever okay in real life or on NS to spread unfounded rumours about a person, or to treat them as deserving of contempt and mistreatment.

*looks at Osiris members attacks on NPO in recent months* Good one

It was pointed out pretty clearly in the post that its not just a TNP issue, but rather an issue many communities have, and was something Osiris felt needed addressing on a larger scale, which seems to be the reason they posted in GP.

Also, pretty sure Osiris never spread unfounded rumors about anyone or thought they deserved mistreatment. It was just an in-character political war, targeted at a regions entire government, not a single person. Bit of a different situation

[Rockina]

I am very furious with TNP, I suggest action(s) must be held. And this isn't the first time TNP has done this.

[Imperium of Josh]

It's amusing that Osiris decided to bring this to GP to get people on their side. All of this could have been sorted diplomatically between your two regions (or just even between Cormac and TNP).

However, it isn't ever okay in real life or on NS to spread unfounded rumours about a person, or to treat them as deserving of contempt and mistreatment.

*looks at Osiris members attacks on NPO in recent months* Good one

This isn't meant to be some diplomatic points scoring thing, and TNP is far from being the only place with OOC issues. We need to draw attention to the fact that these problems do exist within the game, and ensure that the community works towards improvement.

On the other note, Osiris' issues with NPO are IC, and are not related to this issue.

[Kurnugia]

It's amusing that Osiris decided to bring this to GP to get people on their side. All of this could have been sorted diplomatically between your two regions (or just even between Cormac and TNP).


*looks at Osiris members attacks on NPO in recent months* Good one

This isn't meant to be some diplomatic points scoring thing, and TNP is far from being the only place with OOC issues. We need to draw attention to the fact that these problems do exist within the game, and ensure that the community works towards improvement.

On the other note, Osiris' issues with NPO are IC, and are not related to this issue.

Block and Vetelo are IC situations?

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Kudos to the NPO talking heads who decided to class up this thread by devolving it into petty political bullshit.

I'll just repeat what I've said in discord on the TNP thing - it wasn't acceptable and the elitist "we don't have care about anything other than us" attitude that's been bred in my home region needs to end, and will end. Its the ns form of xenophobia and no longer has a place in TNP.

[Ghostfox]

Block and Vetelo are IC situations?

This was answered on discord, but I think it's necessary to reemphasize the point here so it's understood. Our issues with NPO are currently IC because as far as I'm concerned, NPO handled the problems with Block and Attero. But those situations aren't in the same vein as this one, and to dive into this concern by comparing this and that situation over half a year misses the point.

This isn't just a TNP problem, it's an NS problem. It just so happens that the incident that brought it to our attention happened in TNP. It could have happened anywhere. But the issue is with players who are unable to separate the game with real life, formulate awful emotions about rivals in an OOC manner, and then push that negativity in the community.

You wanna try and score points for NPO vs. Osiris using OOC stuff as ammunition, I guess I can't stop you. But don't obfuscate the actual issue here please.

[Escade]

I think we might have to acknowledge that NSGP culture is trying to change. We can also be clear that the culture, for a very long time as far back as 2013 from my memory, is not unique to TNP at all.

As recent as 2018, which for some may be far in the past, NSGP including prominent players has dogpiled on players and sometimes even regions whether on here onsite or on Discord.

I think it's good and exemplary to set standards (some players have been asking for these standards for some time now) and to want to improve the culture of the entire community. Standards work though when they are applicable to everyone and aren't bent for friends. There have been several calls for players to actually create a public set of standards that are for the entire community. It's not an impossible task and yet... we're still here.

What would creating public and clear standards do? It starts by holding everyone and their friends accountable to the same public and visible standards. Then, by stating, "We understand things were run a certain way for a long time but NOW we are changing for the better" can keep players from pulling into posts as old as last year and beyond to provide examples that were not policed as it were or didn't get any attention from the community. It also prevents the use of "sudden" standards to prosecute the past or present. Making up the laws as you go doesn't work well.

I do hope TNP will look into this issue on the administration\moderation side. While regions can choose to reject players based on any reason (and should work on diplomatically stating these reasons, it's not that hard), we no longer - as a community - find it acceptable to dogpile on one player (as of April 2019).

[The Holy Principality of Saint Mark]

Well said.
While we are mimicking real politics, we don't have to behave the way real life politicians do.
We can be better.

[Yokiria]

It's amusing that Osiris decided to bring this to GP to get people on their side. All of this could have been sorted diplomatically between your two regions (or just even between Cormac and TNP).

Interesting. I did not realize you were privy to the decision-making process in Osiris. What other insights do you have, Drop Your Pants?

However, it isn't ever okay in real life or on NS to spread unfounded rumours about a person, or to treat them as deserving of contempt and mistreatment.

*looks at Osiris members attacks on NPO in recent months* Good one

It is troubling that you cannot tell the difference between IC criticism and OOC misbehavior, even after spending over a decade on this site.

[Kurnugia]

Block and Vetelo are IC situations?

This was answered on discord, but I think it's necessary to reemphasize the point here so it's understood. Our issues with NPO are currently IC because as far as I'm concerned, NPO handled the problems with Block and Attero. But those situations aren't in the same vein as this one, and to dive into this concern by comparing this and that situation over half a year misses the point.

This isn't just a TNP problem, it's an NS problem. It just so happens that the incident that brought it to our attention happened in TNP. It could have happened anywhere. But the issue is with players who are unable to separate the game with real life, formulate awful emotions about rivals in an OOC manner, and then push that negativity in the community.

You wanna try and score points for NPO vs. Osiris using OOC stuff as ammunition, I guess I can't stop you. But don't obfuscate the actual issue here please.

DYP brought the point of the NPO. Not me.

[Armaros]

However, it isn't ever okay in real life or on NS to spread unfounded rumours about a person, or to treat them as deserving of contempt and mistreatment.

*looks at Osiris members attacks on NPO in recent months* Good one

It is more then concerning to see that you can't differentiate IC from OOC.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

However, it isn't ever okay in real life or on NS to spread unfounded rumours about a person, or to treat them as deserving of contempt and mistreatment.

*looks at Osiris members attacks on NPO in recent months* Good one

Among many others. I haven't forgotten the accusations that were made up to run Biyah out of the game- sparked entirely by internal Osiris politics. The fact that he wasn't immediately made permanently unwelcome after they were proven false is utterly disgusting.

[RiderSyl]

*looks at Osiris members attacks on NPO in recent months* Good one

Among many others. I haven't forgotten the accusations that were made up to run Biyah out of the game- sparked entirely by internal Osiris politics. The fact that he wasn't immediately made permanently unwelcome after they were proven false is utterly disgusting.

What are you talking about?

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Among many others. I haven't forgotten the accusations that were made up to run Biyah out of the game- sparked entirely by internal Osiris politics. The fact that he wasn't immediately made permanently unwelcome after they were proven false is utterly disgusting.

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about something that sadly, can't be discussed on this forum.

[Pierconium]

Only because it has been mentioned, the NPO has no official position on this situation between Osiris and TNP and has not expressed one here.

[RiderSyl]

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about something that sadly, can't be discussed on this forum.

Okay.

So after an announcement admonishing people for spreading unfounded rumors about Cormac, you decided it would be a good idea to accuse Cormac of doing OOC things while being unable to provide any evidence. Knowing you couldn't provide any evidence, even.

You're only contributing to the problem.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

I'm talking about something that sadly, can't be discussed on this forum.

Okay.

So after an announcement admonishing people for spreading unfounded rumors about Cormac, you decided it would be a good idea to accuse Cormac of doing OOC things while being unable to provide any evidence. Knowing you couldn't provide any evidence, even.

You're only contributing to the problem.

Glasshouses and stones, stones and glasshouses, glasshouses and stones. Literally everyone in this utterly reprehensible corner of the wider NationStates community has done nothing but throw stones through each others glasshouses for the last 3 to 5 years. Do we even have an actual geopolitical landscape anymore? Do the latest generations of players just think that throwing stones is how the game works? If someone rolls a big enough boulder through TBH tomorrow, does R/D as we know it even continue to exist? At this point, nothing about our stone throwing culture changes until moderation forces that change.

[Drop Your Pants]

Kudos to the NPO talking heads who decided to class up this thread by devolving it into petty political bullshit.

It was just me Was just making an observation, it could easily have been ignored as the spouting of a mad sheep.

[RiderSyl]

Okay.

So after an announcement admonishing people for spreading unfounded rumors about Cormac, you decided it would be a good idea to accuse Cormac of doing OOC things while being unable to provide any evidence. Knowing you couldn't provide any evidence, even.

You're only contributing to the problem.

Glasshouses and stones, stones and glasshouses, glasshouses and stones. Literally everyone in this utterly reprehensible corner of the wider NationStates community has done nothing but throw stones through each others glasshouses for the last 3 to 5 years. Do we even have an actual geopolitical landscape anymore? Do the latest generations of players just think that throwing stones is how the game works? If someone rolls a big enough boulder through TBH tomorrow, does R/D as we know it even continue to exist? At this point, nothing about our stone throwing culture changes until moderation forces that change.

You came into this thread, stone in hand, with Cormac's name written on it, and threw it as hard as you could. You're not the person to be complaining about a "stone throwing culture". And where do you get off calling the GP community "utterly reprehensible", exactly? What have you done that's so angelic, Avakael? Fuck, your whole shtick is bragging about the stones you've thrown and how badass it was when you threw them. Now you're the woke one? Not buying it.