Osiris | Danburg Seized!

[Escade]

This discussion is not about Cormac. It's not about Cormac. It's not about Cormac. It's not about Cormac.

Isn't this discussion literally about Cormac though... like I get the "deeper meaning" vibe, but this literally all started out of a discussion about Cormac

Here's hoping TNP cuts their bullshit, though I ain't holding my breath. Good on Osiris for calling them out on it publicly. Despite some people arguing that this could/should have been resolved behind closed doors, TNP seems to be more keen on a snail-pace approach to controversies against them unless there's some kerosene thrown into the mix. I imagine a public statement help resolve this and bring it to light far more effectively.

I think the whole point was that we need to have better community standards regardless of who the player in question is (in this case both Cormac and Altino were impacted by this). The tendency to have a "Have you ever felt victimized by Regina George" moment only exacerbates this problem. NSGP is not the place because - at least right now - it lends itself to certain patterns and behaviors.

The slippery slope of "X player was a dick to me so that justifies me and my ten friends trashing them and their friends in a public government situation" basically means you can never say, "Here are community standards that are applicable to any player." It's why I bring up Onder or have brought him up whenever these discussions come up whether here or on Discord. Regardless of how much you like or dislike a player - the same set of standards should apply to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Picking and choosing means that there won't be consistent standards for anyone. Otherwise this is just part of the growing insipid trend of players in NSGP to use toxicity as a weapon.

Also, I'm not hating on TNP here nor encouraging it as no region or group is really blameless in this situation - we created and normed this culture as a group. If anything my political affiliations have nothing to do with this discussion. I'm banned from Osiris, love players closely associated with the NPO and also like players (including some of the "troublemakers" as it were) from TNP.

The goal is not castigate or blame or shame any one particular person or region. It's more of "Hey this has been happening since 2000 whatever. Players keep complaining but nothing is ever done. For those who want to change the atmosphere, what concrete things would you like to see change that are applicable from henceforth to all players." Put up or shut up as it were.

The only way to stop the weaponization of "toxicity" is to make it clear, transparent and applicable to all. I'm not talking about minor disputes either like calling someone a dick in a heated argument. There's been a real fear from several players of being targeted for blacklisting with "toxicity" being used as the form of attack.

I also think that there are things that players have done that require more serious actions (sexual harassment for example) and then things that don't. Right now how those players are treated varies greatly. So players that have been excised from the game (like Pergamon or Yuno) for whatever issues (sometimes based on circumstantial evidence or lacking information or context) have an avenue for clarifying and coming back to the game without vitriol or other nonsense (such as false and unproven accusations).

Having some clear, transparent standards that apply to everyone would help make our culture and system less one about fear and the "gotcha" attitude that's been growing more and more prevalent. It would be awesome if leaders, without major baggage, from all the regions involved or invested could put away the political theater for a bit and work on this.

To avoid any more detractions, going to link to this thread here by Cataluna: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=462978

I'll think of a more detailed response to that post that encapsulates a lot of the above.

[Pallaith]

As the current delegate of TNP, I have spent a lot of time making a case for a TNP more engaged with the interregional community. I want us to be part of these conversations, and I want all players to work towards improving this game and breaking the cycle that makes this game less fun and more stressful, the cycle the recent NPO and OOC posts are a part of.

A big part of the problem in gameplay is that people are often looking for something to do, so any conflict is seized. These conflicts tend to be OOC more than IC, as major IC events are infrequent these days. A lack of IC conflict should not be replaced with OOC sniping. This includes using OOC misconduct of some to characterize an entire region. Osiris has had that happen to them in this thread, and they have done the same to my region in their posts and conversations about this incident. I do not believe this was completely intentional, but I do want to correct the record in a few places.

Firstly, our Vice Delegate did not claim that he would ignore complaints brought to him regarding OOC misconduct. The Vice Delegate was referring to complaints about the RA vote on his rejection of Cormac’s citizenship application.

Secondly, two individuals in our Discord server stepped out of line in how they handled Altino’s complaint. This was inappropriate and has been treated as such by our moderators. The two individuals involved in the incident were dealt with by Discord moderation and reprimanded. I have spoken with both individuals: each apologized for their involvement and assured me this will never occur again. Altino’s original complaint was heard and the quiz she objected to was taken down without issue.

Lastly, a specific remark (referenced in Osiris’s statement as “wild and unfounded accusations”) made by one of these individuals is based on a misunderstanding, which I have explained to Altino. It involves personal details that should not have been brought up in that conversation. I was surprised that this remark was referenced in their statement despite my explanation. I agree that serious allegations of OOC misconduct should not be casually thrown around in angry conversation. I do not agree that this remark fits that description, and this kind of thing can easily be explained in precisely the fashion I explained it. It is regrettable that in making a reasonable and much-needed statement about these sorts of matters, Osiris fell into the same trap they are trying to help all of us climb out of.

The statement also refers to trust in TNP’s ability to keep itself free of toxicity is “already shaky” and “must be won back.” The event that the statement refers to is completely different in nature to what happened the other night, and irrelevant to responding to the conduct of our citizens when they go too far in a debate with another player.

I appreciate Altino acknowledging the efforts we made to address the situation. We run a tight ship, and we have a good team. I understand that a core part of Altino’s complaint as well as this statement is the idea that individuals who overstep the line and express anger and resentment like what we saw the other night is inevitably shaped by their environment. In all of our communities, we learn about people and places we have not met or been to ourselves through the members of our community. We hear stories, we are colored by the experiences of others, and we internalize those things. This is true in all of our regions, which is why Osiris is emphasizing that this is something every region has to be mindful of. My understanding is Altino believed that the people arguing with her were only going off of what they learned and understood from others in TNP. Regardless of veracity, it did not excuse their language. And it does not mean in general than the culture of TNP is one that encourages and fosters the kind of behavior they engaged in.

‘Gameplay’ is often seen negatively in TNP, to the point where few of us wish to have anything to do with it. When Gameplay arrives on our shore, it is rarely for good reason. This played a role in the events Osiris described, and is precisely why I want things to be different. I believe that they can be, but that has to start with trust.

Altino, fair or not, did not trust the culture in TNP, and believed a couple of angry people represented dozens of members of our community. Some in this thread evidently feel the same way, and - just as Altino felt some unfairly judged Cormac without knowing him based on the opinions of others - assumed the worst about us without necessarily even knowing what actually happened. Past grievances have been used to draw a parallel to this situation, and to pontificate how we will operate in the future. Lots of bad stuff happened in the past, and there’s more than enough hypocrisy to go around. This should be about the future, one where GP is not a place to be avoided. A future where we can fight about the IC things that don’t matter, because those things are the most fun. Fights that do not stop us from the proverbial after-hours drink while we sit and relax after a day’s work. And that starts when we stop scoring points about OOC stuff and being the people who fight about how we play the game, instead of just playing it.

[Big Bad Badger]

I would like to advocate for a TL;DR of the entirety of this situation.

[Sylven]

I would like to advocate for a TL;DR of the entirety of this situation.

Praetor makes a quiz thing in TNP with like Cormac quotes and stuff and I think like the comments section got kinda ugly? (correct me if I'm wrong people, it was taken down.. or maybe im too incompetent to find that part)

then that altino lady b like "RAWR, u guys makin fun o' that dude cormac like what up brothahs?? uncool" in TNP's discord

and people were sayin stuff back like "it's fine cuz he's cormac and that dude lame bro and i think ur hairdo looks bad tbh lady"

and then I guess like people started apologizing to corm+altino and then osi be like "woahowah tnp get ur act together like these problems, man, problems"

and gp people be like "erm u got problems, no u!" but other people say "eeeyyyy, let the past go folks we be like entering this new sparklin age or smthn shiny mebbe"

then tnp delegate dude, i forget his name show up and say "like, it's a thing but not this like a big evil tnp thing and was like dealt with so chill plz"

but then you showed up so idk what's gonna happen now i hope you're doing well

[Greater Moldavi]

I would like to advocate for a TL;DR of the entirety of this situation.

Praetor makes a quiz thing in TNP with like Cormac quotes and stuff and I think like the comments section got kinda ugly? (correct me if I'm wrong people, it was taken down.. or maybe im too incompetent to find that part)

then that altino lady b like "RAWR, u guys makin fun o' that dude cormac like what up brothahs?? uncool" in TNP's discord

and people were sayin stuff back like "it's fine cuz he's cormac and that dude lame bro and i think ur hairdo looks bad tbh lady"

and then I guess like people started apologizing to corm+altino and then osi be like "woahowah tnp get ur act together like these problems, man, problems"

and gp people be like "erm u got problems, no u!" but other people say "eeeyyyy, let the past go folks we be like entering this new sparklin age or smthn shiny mebbe"

then tnp delegate dude, i forget his name show up and say "like, it's a thing but not this like a big evil tnp thing and was like dealt with so chill plz"

but then you showed up so idk what's gonna happen now i hope you're doing well

Okay, I know this is a serious situation for the most part to some people, but this made me laugh.

[Roavin]

Sylven, can you henceforth describe all GP events in that way?

[RiderSyl]

Sylven, can you henceforth describe all GP events in that way?

Hear, hear.

[Escade]

And that starts when we stop scoring points about OOC stuff and being the people who fight about how we play the game, instead of just playing it.

Thanks, Pallaith - that was an excellent statement. One thing I appreciate about TNP is while, like most of NSGP, it has made mistakes (like all of us) - you all have been great at rectifying them and being reasonable.

The above I think is the key take away here.

[Blight-Bane]

I would like to advocate for a TL;DR of the entirety of this situation.

Cormac applies for citizenship in TNP, fails checks, drama ensues, GP hears about it, salt is struck.

[Wabbitslayah]

I would like to advocate for a TL;DR of the entirety of this situation.

Cormac applies for citizenship in TNP, fails checks, drama ensues, GP hears about it, salt is struck.

Not sure it's salt, and sure It's about serious issues that's consistent in NSGP.

[Anabelle I]

On Concern for The East Pacific

For too long, we watched from the sidelines at the unsettling progression of events happening in The East Pacific and said nothing.

We watched as The East Pacific's nation count rapidly dropped below even the numbers of the Sinkers.

We watched as The East Pacific's elected Delegate said their own Constitution was "dumb and hopelessly broken."

We watched as players whose biggest claim to fame in the relevant present is couping their home and reducing the place to inactivity, crowd into positions of power.

We watched officers of the Delegate's cabinet sarcastically mocked their treatied allies for voicing their concerns rather than listen and consider a change or friendly explanation.

Now, we can watch and remain silent no longer.

Osiris is friendly with The East Pacific and, although there are times we don't agree, we're proud to have been able to maintain a positive relationship with the region as a whole. Therefore as a friend, we urge them to consider their actions. And how they affect not just the residents who have been removed from their home region, but also the citizens of the East Pacific. Who now must watch as their elected leader make the moves not of an upstanding leader of their community, but as an authoritarian putting his own goals and regime above the peace and prosperity of The East Pacific.

We urge them to resist avoidable upheaval and unnecessary stress to a region that only wants to exist stably and peacefully.

[Wymondham]

Hear hear. As a citizen of Osiris I am delighted to see that our government is making a cool, calm and collected statement to our friends in TEP that perhaps they should reconsider their actions

[Cormactopia II]

I'm glad to see this statement from Osiris. Anabelle is showing the world what kind of Pharaoh she is, and Osiris is fortunate to have her.

I hope the natives of TEP will recover their region for their native community, as we once recovered ours in 2013 under similarly unfortunate circumstances. TEP and Osiris share many common themes in our history, and I hope TEP will come out of this crisis stronger than it was before, as Osiris often has.

[Imperium of Josh]

My support to the above sentiment.

[The Church of Satan]

I must say I greatly applaud Osiris and more specifically Annabelle for their willingness to step forward and speak their mind when they see an injustice happening right before their eyes. You refuse to deny the truth of what you see.

[Malphe]

A solid statement. Glad that Osi isn't holding back from commenting on TEP.

[Lukatonia]

Excellent statement Anabelle. I am glad to see Osiris issue a response about what is happening in TEP.

[Yokiria]

The ongoing situation in The East Pacific certainly warranted a response, and this was the right one. I am hopeful that more voices will join ours in the future, if the alarming behavior continues.

Those currently in positions of power in the East Pacific have shown themselves lacking both the benevolence that an autocracy requires, and the flexibility that a democracy requires.

[North Prarie]

Awesomesauce. Nice job Osi.

I hope other regions follow TSP and Osiris’ (TSP and Osi agreeing? ) and express their concern over Fedele and his administrations’ actions.

[Altino]

Awesomesauce. Nice job Osi.

I hope other regions follow TSP and Osiris’ (TSP and Osi agreeing? :o) and express their concern over Fedele and his administrations’ actions.

Eek! Don't jinx it. @_@

[Lord Dominator]

Awesomesauce. Nice job Osi.

I hope other regions follow TSP and Osiris’ (TSP and Osi agreeing? ) and express their concern over Fedele and his administrations’ actions.

Eek! Don't jinx it. @_@

Lol, like TSP & Osi don't have this tendency to oddly agree in principle with each other (recently) despite opposing alignments, governments, and central pillar leadership that generally dislike each other.

Or maybe I'm having some memory bias, who knows.

[United States of Vietnam]

We have had a tsundere relationship lately.

[Bosanquet]

The ongoing situation in The East Pacific certainly warranted a response, and this was the right one. I am hopeful that more voices will join ours in the future, if the alarming behavior continues.

Those currently in positions of power in the East Pacific have shown themselves lacking both the benevolence that an autocracy requires, and the flexibility that a democracy requires.

NPO Delenda Est?

How did the first screeching attempt to stay relevant work out for Osiris? Some statements about empty victories were made. Osirans patted themselves on the back endlessly for headless squawking.

TEP is not without fault. What has TEP done to purge the region of all members associated with and in support of a regime that enabled and protected predatory behavior?

[Miporin]

The ongoing situation in The East Pacific certainly warranted a response, and this was the right one. I am hopeful that more voices will join ours in the future, if the alarming behavior continues.

Those currently in positions of power in the East Pacific have shown themselves lacking both the benevolence that an autocracy requires, and the flexibility that a democracy requires.

NPO Delenda Est?

How did the first screeching attempt to stay relevant work out for Osiris? Some statements about empty victories were made. Osirans patted themselves on the back endlessly for headless squawking.

TEP is not without fault. What has TEP done to purge the region of all members associated with and in support of a regime that enabled and protected predatory behavior?

Luckily, I imagine most Osirans don't give a damn about vitriol from an anonymous puppet nation with a clear bone to pick

[Yokiria]

NPO Delenda Est?

NPO stands for New Pacific Order, the government in The Pacific. The statement, and my comment, refer to The East Pacific. It is a different region, with a different government. I hope this explanation cleared up your confusion.

How did the first screeching attempt to stay relevant work out for Osiris?

I would not describe it as an "attempt to stay relevant", but to answer your question, what you are referring to worked out well for Osiris.

Some statements about empty victories were made. Osirans patted themselves on the back endlessly for headless squawking.

Inaccurate descriptions.

TEP is not without fault. What has TEP done to purge the region of all members associated with and in support of a regime that enabled and protected predatory behavior?

The East Pacific has done well in that regard. The current diplomatic hubbub is over in-character events, not OOC events.

Luckily, I imagine most Osirans don't give a damn about vitriol from an anonymous puppet nation with a clear bone to pick

Correct.