Osiris | Danburg Seized!

[Altinsane]

Confirming Mike's statement. The insinuation that he may have gone rogue and declared war without my consent is frankly grasping at straws, but I'm unsurprised to see the distrust NPO would try to breed in my region. Classic. Fortunately, I very publicly asked him to make a statement on my behalf. I'm very sick right now - as in, haven't been able to eat anything for days kind of sick - and he's been helping me out with FA things. That's his job anyway. <.<

Appreciate you, Mike.

First, sorry you are unwell.

Second, it was not an insinuation. It was a question that another member of your government sidestepped and could not confirm.

From my perspective this progression went a bit like this:

A. You told a member of the Pacifican Senate that any official statements regarding action against the Pacific would come from you directly. Or at least you would clearly indicate support for the statements.

B. A statement was posted without your signature by a member of the Osiris government.

1. Upon seeing B and being informed of A, I asked for clarification.
2. Another member of your government posted that the person making B could do so but they could not confirm A.
3. Derp*
4. You log on to confirm, which does not necessarily alleviate the issues between A and B but is at least a clear statement from Osiris.

* The lack of confirmation on the part of your government after my question was eventually alluded to as ‘snark’ but remained unconfirmed. This could be because said member actually did not know if the statement was official, was just being an ass, or backroom conversations about the person posting B were taking place to fix a public screw up. While I am inclined at this stage to just go with Syberis being intentionally obtuse, in the moment it was unclear. In the interim the NationStates Windmill Tilting Society decided to start posting as well, likely because they knew me to already be offline for the evening.

Regardless, most of this could have been avoided with either an actual signature on the statement (which I believe is a fairly common activity for official statements, even those made by proxy) or a simple ‘yes’ in response to my initial question.

Any internal distrust that was created within Osiris as a result of this is firmly and completely your government’s fault and responsibility because of sloppy communication and unprofessional diplomatic behaviour.

M'kay. Well, I am not going to spend days arguing with you over this. Thank you for your opinion, but it is a detail. However, I made an announcement in this thread that I had petitioned the Guardians to war. A follow-up announcement from the Chairman of the Guardians was not inappropriate. Even if it were, it is not your place to tell me how it is appropriate to handle my government. That is the kind of thinking that got you into this mess.

Happy to! Can you redirect me to those questions, please?

I'm sorry Osiris, but if anything, this is confusing.

Each and all bans in NS can be undone at a later time. There is no discussion about it: is just the way our world works. Had Ale choose to ban the individuals immediately, would you still have come up with this non-sense statement about "There [being] no assurance that in a year, or sooner, the bans will remain in place." ?

I mean, let's get things clear here: you are basically saying something along the lines of "We are disgusted by the fact that the NPO is incapable - as are all other NS regions - of imposing a perma-ban on Perg - due to the technical limitations of our realms." Is this it?

What was the point then?

I'm kind of disappointed. Let's be honest here: had I been the Emperor, I would have apologized to Perg for having to do what I had to do, and would have banned him. It is harsh, and I would have infuriated and alienated the community of my region. And then you would have said "Oh is not enough" and still come out with this joke... To what end?

Here, Alti

Thank you, Ele. ❤️ If you had been the Emperor, things would've been very different, and I know that. I was halfway hoping they would drag you back into the seat so I could spend more time taking naps and less time at war. I feel like you have a proven history of not standing down to chumps. But we don't always get what we want. Anyway.

NPO's FA Office assured us very heavy-handedly that no promises they made today could be guaranteed tomorrow. If this was a concern to you, naturally it would have to be a concern to us. We told them that would lack accountability. As a solution they did offer us the option to enter into a treaty with TSP, TWP, and TEP essentially offering them as collateral against further damages done by NPO, so that if NPO did anything to unban Perg&co, the three of us would automatically be in a state of war. I have no idea if they had actually discussed this idea with those regions or were just sort of throwing caution to the wind, but either way I was uncomfortable with the idea of pressing Osiris' grievances on other regions, especially on an uncertain, permanent basis that could mean anything in the future. That isn't something that I would ever ask of them myself. Also: all that would do for us is deescalate the issue in the present so that it could be made again later, once the rest of the game cools off about it, leaving us without outside support. We would just have to wager our chances that these allies would really like to go to war on behalf of Osiris because NPO unbanned a guy months later. In any case, knowing this, knowing that NPO's dedication to appeasing Osiris was largely at the behest of outside forces, and knowing that other wronged regions were being entirely ignored didn't give me any confidence of NPO's sincerity. Now I'm watching NPO suddenly happy to make contact with those wronged regions. What's happening is a stage-by-stage presentation of the bare minimum that it takes to get everyone off your back and not a penny more than that. It is not really about how capable you are of keeping your promises. It is about whether or not you will continue to pose the same threat to our regions that you have insisted on posing all these years. Maybe you won't in the future. I hope that you won't! But right now, NPO goes on worshipping Perg to the point that there would be riots if he got banned despite the fact that Perg is just as guilty as Feux and AMOM, and that is a mindset that the government encourages and punishes any clarification on, and that's not even the bottom of the bucket. Not safe. Not sincere. Not in Osiris' interests to let slide.

[The Seeker of Power]

Thanks for your reply Alti. I hope you are better now, ma'am.

[Pierconium]

M'kay. Well, I am not going to spend days arguing with you over this. Thank you for your opinion, but it is a detail. However, I made an announcement in this thread that I had petitioned the Guardians to war. A follow-up announcement from the Chairman of the Guardians was not inappropriate. Even if it were, it is not your place to tell me how it is appropriate to handle my government. That is the kind of thinking that got you into this mess.

I do not believe stating the general tradition of actually signing off on official statements is attempting to tell you how to handle your government. But, considering that your government is currently seeking to dismantle mine, I'll offer you the same response.

[Xoriet]

Thank you, Ele. ❤️ If you had been the Emperor, things would've been very different, and I know that. I was halfway hoping they would drag you back into the seat so I could spend more time taking naps and less time at war. I feel like you have a proven history of not standing down to chumps. But we don't always get what we want. Anyway.

NPO's FA Office assured us very heavy-handedly that no promises they made today could be guaranteed tomorrow. If this was a concern to you, naturally it would have to be a concern to us. We told them that would lack accountability. As a solution they did offer us the option to enter into a treaty with TSP, TWP, and TEP essentially offering them as collateral against further damages done by NPO, so that if NPO did anything to unban Perg&co, the three of us would automatically be in a state of war. I have no idea if they had actually discussed this idea with those regions or were just sort of throwing caution to the wind, but either way I was uncomfortable with the idea of pressing Osiris' grievances on other regions, especially on an uncertain, permanent basis that could mean anything in the future. That isn't something that I would ever ask of them myself. Also: all that would do for us is deescalate the issue in the present so that it could be made again later, once the rest of the game cools off about it, leaving us without outside support. We would just have to wager our chances that these allies would really like to go to war on behalf of Osiris because NPO unbanned a guy months later. In any case, knowing this, knowing that NPO's dedication to appeasing Osiris was largely at the behest of outside forces, and knowing that other wronged regions were being entirely ignored didn't give me any confidence of NPO's sincerity. Now I'm watching NPO suddenly happy to make contact with those wronged regions. What's happening is a stage-by-stage presentation of the bare minimum that it takes to get everyone off your back and not a penny more than that. It is not really about how capable you are of keeping your promises. It is about whether or not you will continue to pose the same threat to our regions that you have insisted on posing all these years. Maybe you won't in the future. I hope that you won't! But right now, NPO goes on worshipping Perg to the point that there would be riots if he got banned despite the fact that Perg is just as guilty as Feux and AMOM, and that is a mindset that the government encourages and punishes any clarification on, and that's not even the bottom of the bucket. Not safe. Not sincere. Not in Osiris' interests to let slide.

I'll start with "Feel better, Alti."

What I have been operating from when speaking with you was post being informed that Osiris as a region did not trust us to keep them banned. This is an understandable sentiment from any perspective given that the previous Senate revoked bans or restored titles as soon as the initial outcry had died down. What I wanted to avoid in this situation was trouble at home, not because Pergamon was worshipped, but because he was highly respected and liked. Transgressions against the greater community aside, he is a comrade to us, not an idol. They were already unhappy about Svez. Given that it was in our (NPO's) best interests to both give you an assurance that there were no plans and would be no plans to go back on this as well as to avoid trouble within the NPO itself, I suggested an alternative that would ideally give you a guarantee that this would never happen while also avoiding turning this into a troublesome situation internally. When that could not happen, we banned Pergamon instead, if not exactly the way Osiris demanded.

I had been told repeatedly by Osirans that you did not trust us to not unban them, so I said exactly what you and your region were already thinking while presenting this. I had not brought this up with the other regions at the time because it would only be effective if Osiris, the main wronged party by the NPO other than Lazarus, agreed. It was a proposal, not a confirmed plan of action. I never confirmed to you that we could not be trusted, simply stated that via Osiris' own belief that there was no guarantee. We meant the apology and the bans and still do, but Osiris did not believe it. I would have personally preferred if we could have found a diplomatic way to ensure that there would be no breaking this on our end so that you could both see and believe our intentions were sincere. You declaring war is regrettable but understandable nonetheless.

We have also repeatedly stated here and to everyone that we are aware that trust is not something that can be earned with a simple apology, nor do we operate on the hope that this is the case. Even if we appeased Osiris and the others with legitimate grievances, the Pandora's box of hostility remains open. If we thought a simple apology would suffice, we would have issued a general statement on Gameplay and holed up completely after that until this passed. Instead we have reached out individually to the specific harmed parties and gone against our own usual policies to assure people that we are not simply mouthing expected words and thinking this would finish everything. This included individuals such as Souls and shortly Tim, as both of them were endangered by the members who are now banned. We are not going to justify any of it, or whitewash it.

[Altinsane]

M'kay. Well, I am not going to spend days arguing with you over this. Thank you for your opinion, but it is a detail. However, I made an announcement in this thread that I had petitioned the Guardians to war. A follow-up announcement from the Chairman of the Guardians was not inappropriate. Even if it were, it is not your place to tell me how it is appropriate to handle my government. That is the kind of thinking that got you into this mess.

I do not believe stating the general tradition of actually signing off on official statements is attempting to tell you how to handle your government. But, considering that your government is currently seeking to dismantle mine, I'll offer you the same response.

That is fair.

[Syberis]

What I wanted to avoid in this situation was trouble at home, not because Pergamon was worshipped, but because he was highly respected and liked. Transgressions against the greater community aside, he is a comrade to us, not an idol. They were already unhappy about Svez. Given that it was in our (NPO's) best interests to both give you an assurance that there were no plans and would be no plans to go back on this as well as to avoid trouble within the NPO itself, I suggested an alternative that would ideally give you a guarantee that this would never happen while also avoiding turning this into a troublesome situation internally. When that could not happen, we banned Pergamon instead, if not exactly the way Osiris demanded.

Ah yes, those banned players who can hang out with your general community that's shared between games. That level of ban?

Also, why is "But this is hard for us, please take pity" something that the community should give a shit about? They have their demands, if they were easy, they wouldn't have had to make them, you would have just... done it, I'd assume. You're complaining about potential trouble in the NPO (for taking basic disciplinary actions) when the NPO is hugely responsible for a lot of trouble in other regions. I've never thought I'd receive the narcissist's reply from a region's foreign affairs on this blatant a level.

"Yeah, but consequences for actions are inconvenient to me" is not a defense, it's missing the fucking point.

[Kurnugia]

What I wanted to avoid in this situation was trouble at home, not because Pergamon was worshipped, but because he was highly respected and liked. Transgressions against the greater community aside, he is a comrade to us, not an idol. They were already unhappy about Svez. Given that it was in our (NPO's) best interests to both give you an assurance that there were no plans and would be no plans to go back on this as well as to avoid trouble within the NPO itself, I suggested an alternative that would ideally give you a guarantee that this would never happen while also avoiding turning this into a troublesome situation internally. When that could not happen, we banned Pergamon instead, if not exactly the way Osiris demanded.

Ah yes, those banned players who can hang out with your general community that's shared between games. That level of ban?

Also, why is "But this is hard for us, please take pity" something that the community should give a shit about? They have their demands, if they were easy, they wouldn't have had to make them, you would have just... done it, I'd assume. You're complaining about potential trouble in the NPO (for taking basic disciplinary actions) when the NPO is hugely responsible for a lot of trouble in other regions. I've never thought I'd receive the narcissist's reply from a region's foreign affairs on this blatant a level.

"Yeah, but consequences for actions are inconvenient to me" is not a defense, it's missing the fucking point.

Going after other games goes kinda in the OOC realm imo. Which seems a bit too much.

[Syberis]

Ah yes, those banned players who can hang out with your general community that's shared between games. That level of ban?

Also, why is "But this is hard for us, please take pity" something that the community should give a shit about? They have their demands, if they were easy, they wouldn't have had to make them, you would have just... done it, I'd assume. You're complaining about potential trouble in the NPO (for taking basic disciplinary actions) when the NPO is hugely responsible for a lot of trouble in other regions. I've never thought I'd receive the narcissist's reply from a region's foreign affairs on this blatant a level.

"Yeah, but consequences for actions are inconvenient to me" is not a defense, it's missing the fucking point.

Going after other games goes kinda in the OOC realm imo. Which seems a bit too much.

I've considered that mindset. And here's where it begins to fall apart, in my eyes.

The NPO utilizes a shared discord for all of its games, one that Pergamon is not banned from. It's not attacking a group of individuals who happen to play multiple games together, but is functionally instead an org that is a collaborative effort (Except when it's convenient for them not to be, their response to Pergamon is a huge example of this.) I'd consider it as going after them OOC if it was an OOC group of individuals, friends, who also played this other game. But this is a multi-game organization, similar to interregional organizations, and one that has called people across games before, are going to do it again.

[Kurnugia]

Going after other games goes kinda in the OOC realm imo. Which seems a bit too much.

I've considered that mindset. And here's where it begins to fall apart, in my eyes.

The NPO utilizes a shared discord for all of its games, one that Pergamon is not banned from. It's not attacking a group of individuals who happen to play multiple games together, but is functionally instead an org that is a collaborative effort (Except when it's convenient for them not to be, their response to Pergamon is a huge example of this.) I'd consider it as going after them OOC if it was an OOC group of individuals, friends, who also played this other game. But this is a multi-game organization, similar to interregional organizations, and one that has called people across games before, are going to do it again.

All right I guess that's a fair analysis.
PS: I still disagree with the conclusion.

[Syberis]

I've considered that mindset. And here's where it begins to fall apart, in my eyes.

The NPO utilizes a shared discord for all of its games, one that Pergamon is not banned from. It's not attacking a group of individuals who happen to play multiple games together, but is functionally instead an org that is a collaborative effort (Except when it's convenient for them not to be, their response to Pergamon is a huge example of this.) I'd consider it as going after them OOC if it was an OOC group of individuals, friends, who also played this other game. But this is a multi-game organization, similar to interregional organizations, and one that has called people across games before, are going to do it again.

All right I guess that's a fair analysis.
PS: I still disagree with the conclusion.

And I respect your disagreement. My view is rather firm on this because I don't believe a nation is actually required to have an impact on the game world in this era. I'm aware it can be frustrating to some.

[Cormactopia Prime]

As Syberis said: When the NS NPO not only shares a Discord server with the NPO on other games, but also calls in players from other games to provide pilers, and now has even imported their new Emperor from another game, the distinction between "NS NPO" and "other NPO" has completely broken down. I don't think anyone is calling for action against the other games' versions of the NPO, but rather the concern is that by not banning Pergamon from all three, he is going to maintain a foothold of influence over the culture of NS NPO due to the interconnected nature of the NPO across various games.

This is about trying to make sure Pergamon doesn't keep influencing this NPO through other games, not damaging the NPO in other games.

It doesn't really matter now. The bottom line is Osiris doesn't trust the NPO to keep up any terms, and war has been declared. What they do with Pergamon is now irrelevant to Osiris, though the other regions wronged by the NPO should probably regard the very soft "ban" of Pergamon with skepticism as well.

[The Seeker of Power]

I'm sorry, but your comment is total BS Cormac. "I'm not trying to have him banned from other games, I just want him banned from other games". Come on. Laughable.

Yes, the greater NPO community shares a single Discord server. But, each branch has separate accesses, completely separate. And players banned from the NS branch can't get access to the NS channels. I should know: I was banned from NS channels for about 2 years, lol.

The rest is all smoke and mirrors in your side to try to push a very disgusting OOC agenda, which you supposedly oppose.

I'm disappointed on you.

Syb analysis, tbh, has more merit in certain aspects, even if I don't agree with it.

[Glen-Rhodes]

At this point, I'm not sure how either party here can claim to support any principles of sovereignty.

If you're going to go to war, then just shut up and go to war. All of these demands are just nonsense at this point. It's piss poor diplomacy, and that's coming from me. Osiris is completely shattering whatever semblance of trustworthiness it's tried building up, because it's made demands that were met, and now they're trying to find any reason to renege. Why should any region ever negotiate with Osiris, after this? You're clearly just going to renege anyways.

The NPO did shitty things and violated sovereignty left and right. The way Osiris has responded is violating the principles of sovereignty just as much. Frankly, I'm surprised the NPO has put up with it this far. You're demanding they dismantle their community, which is a direct attack on sovereignty. And Cormac and Syb are taking things crazily far, by demanding NPOers be deleted from the internet entirely, apparently. Anti-NPOers have tried pressuring other regions to adopt their hard-line stance, both IC and OOC. I'm not seeing how Osiris is behaving any better than the NPO.

Just go to war, duke it out over innocent regions like you always do. Stop trying to one-up yourselves on the drama factor.

[The Seeker of Power]

Just go to war, duke it out over innocent regions like you always do. Stop trying to one-up yourselves on the drama factor.

Fair enough. Thanks GR.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Glen-Rhodes hates Osiris. News at 11.

[Armaros]

snip

Ehm, what? I like how you manage to make an entire text wall, and still have nothing of substance in it. Osiris here gave the NPO terms. Harsh terms, yes, but it was a chance to avoid war. "Semblance of trustworthiness"? Really? Osiris has been way more trustworthy then the NPO.

The NPO violated Osiran sovereignty, and Osiris responded. Quit your bullshit, Osiris is demanding the banjection of those who harmed them, not to "dismantle their community" or some other bullshit.

That all being said: go google what the words "sovereignty" and "diplomacy" mean

[Yokiria]

The NPO did shitty things and violated sovereignty left and right. The way Osiris has responded is violating the principles of sovereignty just as much.

If you truly believe that Osiris has violated the principles of sovereignty just as much as the NPO has, then you have lost your mind.

[Imperium of Josh]

The NPO did shitty things and violated sovereignty left and right. The way Osiris has responded is violating the principles of sovereignty just as much.

If you truly believe that Osiris has violated the principles of sovereignty just as much as the NPO has, then you have lost your mind.

Did he ever have it anyway?

Gotta love all the NPO apologism that pops up from people just to serve the agenda of "ah well, don't actually care about any of this, but I gotta screw with Osiris or TBH or whatever." We've hardly seen what I'd call mindful and thought out criticisms, more random grasping at straws more often than not plucked from the NPO apologosphere's collective imagination.

[Syberis]

And Cormac and Syb are taking things crazily far, by demanding NPOers be deleted from the internet entirely, apparently. Anti-NPOers have tried pressuring other regions to adopt their hard-line stance, both IC and OOC. I'm not seeing how Osiris is behaving any better than the NPO.

I mean, your hateboner for Osiris is a known quantity, so it makes sense that you're unwilling to read what I'm actually saying, instead going for blind populism. Additionally, you're doing that thing where you assume Cormac and I speak for Osiris again, instead of for ourselves as individuals. (Never mind that Cormac and I have actually argued rather extensively over this matter, to pretend we're coordinating or on the same page is a fucking joke) I swear you and Onder share a playbook.

My biggest concern is that an individual has easy and continued access to the NPO's NS resources and NS players. I don't believe one needs a nation to have influence over players, there's a prominent person back in the game right now who's absolutely evidence of that. I don't want him deleted from the internet entirely, but giving him ready access to the NPO's infrastructure is... not really a ban, in my eyes. The NPO might claim it's a substantially different thing, but I'm skeptical for what I hope the NPO recognizes as obvious reasons.

Is the NPO telling me that there's no channel of communication, whether discord or forum, shared between all the game members, no easy way for people to coordinate between games? I'd be shocked, but pleasantly so.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Look, just to reiterate, I really couldn't care less whether Pergamon plays other games. My concern is solely that the interconnected nature of the NPO across game platforms might give him continued access and influence over the NS NPO. Syberis is right that you don't need a nation to influence this game.

But I think the broader point I was making got a bit lost: None of this matters anymore. Osiris has declared war. None of these demands matter now, because the ship has sailed. So my point here really is that while it may still be relevant to other regions what happens to Pergamon, it isn't relevant to Osiris anymore. Osiris as a community has made a decision that the NPO can't be trusted, and should be smashed. Hence the war declaration.

[The Seeker of Power]

Look, just to reiterate, I really couldn't care less whether Pergamon plays other games. My concern is solely that the interconnected nature of the NPO across game platforms might give him continued access and influence over the NS NPO. Syberis is right that you don't need a nation to influence this game.

But I think the broader point I was making got a bit lost: None of this matters anymore. Osiris has declared war. None of these demands matter now, because the ship has sailed. So my point here really is that while it may still be relevant to other regions what happens to Pergamon, it isn't relevant to Osiris anymore. Osiris as a community has made a decision that the NPO can't be trusted, and should be smashed. Hence the war declaration.

Aye, I agree with you. War has been declared. And my apologies if my previous comments were seemingly constructed as an OOC attack: it was not the intended meaning.

Anyway...

[2SDOATS]

I call for a vote of no confidence in Altinos leadership.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I call for a vote of no confidence in Altinos leadership.

[Lord Dominator]

I call for a vote of no confidence in Altinos leadership.

It'd lose, badly. Which ignores that you're not a citizen and there is no function to remove the Pharaoh.
Please don't speak on topics you're uneducated on.

[2SDOATS]

I call for a vote of no confidence in Altinos leadership.

It'd lose, badly. Which ignores that you're not a citizen and there is no function to remove the Pharaoh.
Please don't speak on topics you're uneducated on.

I am a citizen in Osiris, with a puppet but thanks for telling me what I am.