Osiris | Danburg Seized!

[Cormactopia Prime]

I don't agree with the exclusion of the Rejected Realms from Sinkerism, because I don't believe there are as many differences as there may appear. True, TRR doesn't receive refounded nations looking for an opportunity for "rebirth," but it receives ejected nations that may be looking for a similar opportunity of rebirth. True, it doesn't have an eject/ban button, but it nonetheless has many of the same activity and security issues mentioned in the article.

That said, I'm glad to see the development of an ideology that applies specifically to the Sinkers. I'd just like to see it apply to all four.

[Glacikaldr]

I don't agree with the exclusion of the Rejected Realms from Sinkerism, because I don't believe there are as many differences as there may appear. True, TRR doesn't receive refounded nations looking for an opportunity for "rebirth," but it receives ejected nations that may be looking for a similar opportunity of rebirth. True, it doesn't have an eject/ban button, but it nonetheless has many of the same activity and security issues mentioned in the article.

That said, I'm glad to see the development of an ideology that applies specifically to the Sinkers. I'd just like to see it apply to all four.

To build on this, Lazarus didn't get Border Controls until they requested for them. I guess TRR could try requesting for them as well - especially if that is going to be the arbitrary barrier of entry in your new semi-sinker definition that you're trying to make up - but I'll only ever suggest such a thing if TRR's Border Controls sent 'rejected rejects' to Osiris!

If you'd like to know my thoughts on sinkers and the made-up Sinkerism ideology, or whatever the kiddos are calling it these days, you can find them here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispa ... TICLETHREE

Furthermore, I welcome the opportunity for us to discuss 'sinkerism' together and advise against trying to keep TRR out of something that we evidently are if you look at our game-applied tags (https://www.nationstates.net/page=tag_s ... tag=sinker).

Let's try to move away from dabbling in ridiculousness.

[Devi Vytherin]

I don't agree with the exclusion of the Rejected Realms from Sinkerism, because I don't believe there are as many differences as there may appear. True, TRR doesn't receive refounded nations looking for an opportunity for "rebirth," but it receives ejected nations that may be looking for a similar opportunity of rebirth. True, it doesn't have an eject/ban button, but it nonetheless has many of the same activity and security issues mentioned in the article.

That said, I'm glad to see the development of an ideology that applies specifically to the Sinkers. I'd just like to see it apply to all four.

To build on this, Lazarus didn't get Border Controls until they requested for them. I guess TRR could try requesting for them as well - especially if that is going to be the arbitrary barrier of entry in your new semi-sinker definition that you're trying to make up - but I'll only ever suggest such a thing if TRR's Border Controls sent 'rejected rejects' to Osiris!

If you'd like to know my thoughts on sinkers and the made-up Sinkerism ideology, or whatever the kiddos are calling it these days, you can find them here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispa ... TICLETHREE

Furthermore, I welcome the opportunity for us to discuss 'sinkerism' together and advise against trying to keep TRR out of something that we evidently are if you look at our game-applied tags (https://www.nationstates.net/page=tag_s ... tag=sinker).

Let's try to move away from dabbling in ridiculousness.

Did you read the bit in the article where Syb explicitly acknowledged the gameside tags' existence?

[Cormactopia Prime]

in your new semi-sinker definition that you're trying to make up . . .

If you'd like to know my thoughts on sinkers and the made-up Sinkerism ideology, or whatever the kiddos are calling it these days . . .

All ideologies, particularly in NationStates, are made up. I'm not sure why you keep referring to Sinkerism as "made up," as though that's a bad thing. Development of an ideology to suit the Sinkers and their particular circumstances, and to demonstrate that Sinkers have more in common than they do differences would, in my view, be a welcome development. Sinkers badly need something to define their identities other than competing userite interests.

Again, I do agree with you regarding the exclusion of TRR. But I don't think that's any reason to deride the whole concept. It's certainly no reason to disrespectfully refer to the Pharaoh of Osiris, whose time in NationStates and in the Sinkers predates your own, as a "kiddo." While I disagree with his exclusion of TRR from Sinkerism, he's made clear the reasons behind it and they're thoughtful reasons that should be subject to thoughtful debate.

[Syberis]

For those offended;

Allow me to restate that the reason that I didn't mention The Rejected Realms as a Sinker specifically for the purpose of this piece and the other coming essays is that, as the only mechanically democratic GCR in Nation-states (not being able to ban in defense potentially changes a lot politically, as I'm sure we all know well), a lot of what I'll be referring to in coming pieces when it comes to rule and mindset in a Sinker won't necessarily apply to The Rejected Realms. Only respect is meant by the exclusion, surprisingly; I'm not a Reject, and I didn't want to touch on TRR because of it. As the game stands now, I believe that ruling strategies and ideas of class and role are different between The Rejected Realms and the other tagged Sinkers.

To some extent, lumping them in with the... (Phoenix Regions? Refounding Regions? What are we going with) Others, considering what I intend to say in future essays is doing them a disservice at best, and would require half my points to be derailed with a detailed explanation of why it doesn't work in TRR.

Any offense is utterly not meant, and if this game can come up with new terminology for the three Refounding regions, I'm more than happy to edit that in. Until then, qualification is necessary.

I apologize for any offense. Offense is not meant; merely a respect for unique circumstances requiring unique thinking.

[Tim-Opolis]

You should spend less time writing and more time tarting, Syberis

[The Sygian]

You should spend less time writing and more time tarting, Syberis

Be happy that he's leaving the shitposting to you

[Altinsane]

Cheekybois. New material!

I feel like if you read this, Syb's reasoning behind TRR's exclusion from essay and ideology was reasonable and respectful. Sinkerism is necessary, in my opinion, because Feederism does not cover many of the problems that we face. TRR doesn't need yet another ideology applied to them which neglects to address the biggest issues that they deal with. Perhaps a kinder and more helpful approach for Rejects to take would be to start a discussion on our similarities? Syb can't write on something he knows nothing about. It would be presumptuous of him to even try. But a lending hand from Rejects who do know what they're talking about could bring a much more well-rounded and inclusive angle to Sinkerism as an idea.

Rather than just complaining that Osiris is being big, dumb meanies, I mean.

[Devi Vytherin]

Cheekybois. New material!

I feel like if you read this, Syb's reasoning behind TRR's exclusion from essay and ideology was reasonable and respectful. Sinkerism is necessary, in my opinion, because Feederism does not cover many of the problems that we face. TRR doesn't need yet another ideology applied to them which neglects to address the biggest issues that they deal with. Perhaps a kinder and more helpful approach for Rejects to take would be to start a discussion on our similarities? Syb can't write on something he knows nothing about. It would be presumptuous of him to even try. But a lending hand from Rejects who do know what they're talking about could bring a much more well-rounded and inclusive angle to Sinkerism as an idea.

Rather than just complaining that Osiris is being big, dumb meanies, I mean.

Wait, Osiris aren't big, dumb meanies?

[Altinsane]

Wait, Osiris aren't big, dumb meanies?

Well you've got me there. ;-;

[Unibot III]

Well, I mean for starters - the distinction doesn't make much sense, TRR and Osiris both have re-integration as a core part of their mandate. The difference is that TRR gets an additional influx of victims from crises - refugees from the Great War and the Lazarene Civil War make up a disproportionate part of our region's leadership (e.g., Zyonn, Crazygirl, Church, Canton Empire.) But I don't think that distinction is substantive in terms of what the essay is discussing: as hubs for re-integration, none of the sinker regions are in a position to search for 'feederite purity' - it's not consistent with the role of sinkers.

On those grounds, TRR has long rejected regionalism, embracing a kind of liberal individualistic cosmopolitanism instead that is not far from being diametrically opposed to Francoism.

I think the distinction that Sy is trying to make between TRR and Osiris is more about justifying Osiran autocracy. However, such a distinction is wrongheaded. Despite the assumptions of Peacezone theory, TRR wasn't a democracy until 2011. A constitutional democracy didn't come any more natural to TRR than any other GCR, even though TRR had no ejection button. I would theorize that peacezones, like TRR, equilibriumize around popular benign sovereigns; benignity and popularity are necessary conditions of peacezone leadership, but constitutionality is not. People are just as happy endorsing kind dictators in TRR as they are anywhere else.

Democracy requires hard work and integrity from its leaders, it's not an easy task to maintain and safeguard a democracy in any GCR. We do it, though, because it's the best way we know of to ensure that a region's leadership is committed to serving the interests of a region and its natives. Autocrats cannot be held accountable to the public they serve.

[Lord Dominator]

Lovely piece Osiris

[Roavin]

I didn't really see an argument for autocracy in the text. That may come in a follow-up (I don't know), but not in what was presented there.

I do understand the justification for separating TRR and Laz/Osi/Balder. Yes, there are many similarities, so I can understand that they are all Sinkers in several definitions of the word, but there are real differences too and it's not unreasonable or (in my mind) disrespectful to be aware of them. I don't have a dog in the fight, however.

In general, I think Syb's article was incredibly well-written and a great read, and depending on what the follow-ups will be, it seems to me (as somebody not in a Sinker by either definition) like a great set of basic guiding principles to anybody that is.

[Canton Empire]

EDIT: N/A

[Canton Empire]

I thought Syb was very respectful in his essay, and there are arguments for both sides

[Altinsane]

Pulling an argument for autocracy out of here is a bit of a stretch. Osiris is an autocracy, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. (That's a really gross metaphor. ;-;) Anyway, thanks for all your comments and support! ❤️

[Cormactopia Prime]

I didn't really see an argument for autocracy in the text. That may come in a follow-up (I don't know), but not in what was presented there.

Pulling an argument for autocracy out of here is a bit of a stretch. Osiris is an autocracy, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. (That's a really gross metaphor. ;-;)

I think the assumption is that since future essays will discuss "rule and mindset in a Sinker," Osiris is autocratic, and Syberis has said the Rejected Realms is the only region in which democracy can truly work without being at the whim of the government, it's likely that future essays will propose Osiris' autocratic model of government as the preferable model for Sinkers. I don't know that future essays actually will do that, but I can understand the assumption.

In regard to TRR, I continue to believe that TRR is more similar to the other Sinkers than it is different, and that excluding it from the definition of Sinkers is therefore unnecessary. I worry that isolating TRR in such a way that it is considered unique unto itself, while good intentioned, primarily serves the interests of its enemies. If TRR is considered neither a Feeder nor a Sinker, in this era in which Feederism and Sinkerism are again being promoted, then it follows that TRR would be ignored by Feeders and Sinkers and would be diplomatically isolated. Again, I don't think that's the intended effect, but it could nonetheless be the outcome whether intended or not. So I would urge more consideration of the similarities between TRR and the other Sinkers.

I think the development of Sinkerism as an ideology is also going to have to address the elephant in the room, which is the unique obstacle that Balder, with its large population of people dedicated to UCRs and its multiple acts of aggression toward Feeders and other Sinkers, poses to any concept of Sinkerism. If there is a Sinker that should be isolated from Sinkerism, it's Balder, not TRR. Unfortunately, given Balder's alliances, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Syberis]

I didn't really see an argument for autocracy in the text. That may come in a follow-up (I don't know), but not in what was presented there.

Pulling an argument for autocracy out of here is a bit of a stretch. Osiris is an autocracy, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. (That's a really gross metaphor. ;-;)

I think the assumption is that since future essays will discuss "rule and mindset in a Sinker," Osiris is autocratic, and Syberis has said the Rejected Realms is the only region in which democracy can truly work without being at the whim of the government, it's likely that future essays will propose Osiris' autocratic model of government as the preferable model for Sinkers. I don't know that future essays actually will do that, but I can understand the assumption.

You'll have to tune in next week, but you may be surprised.

[Gibraltarica]

I think the assumption is that since future essays will discuss "rule and mindset in a Sinker," Osiris is autocratic, and Syberis has said the Rejected Realms is the only region in which democracy can truly work without being at the whim of the government, it's likely that future essays will propose Osiris' autocratic model of government as the preferable model for Sinkers. I don't know that future essays actually will do that, but I can understand the assumption.

You'll have to tune in next week, but you may be surprised.

Spoilers:

It turns out Syberis was actually Tim all along.

[Razzle Dazzle]

You'll have to tune in next week, but you may be surprised.

Spoilers:

It turns out Syberis was actually Tim all along.

And Tim was secretly controlled by the NPO! Suddenly, Gameplay all makes sense.

[Gibraltarica]

Spoilers:

It turns out Syberis was actually Tim all along.

And Tim was secretly controlled by the NPO! Suddenly, Gameplay all makes sense.

I told you not to press. SMH.

[Razzle Dazzle]

And Tim was secretly controlled by the NPO! Suddenly, Gameplay all makes sense.

I told you not to press. SMH.

It's too late. I know too much.

[Glacikaldr]

My bad for not staying active here after my post. I'll try to summarise my responses as they would have changed as I read different people's opinions.

I accept some of the critiques of my claims: they're fair and have changed my opinions on a couple of things.

After reading both of Syb's replies and Uni's reply, I think I know where I stand on this.

I don't want TRR to become diplomatically isolated but I'm not sure I stand by your reasoning on TRR needing to oppose 'userites' Cormac. I think TRR is probably the region that is naturally closest with UCRs as a result of primarily being for banjected/ejected nations. Entryism is also weak in TRR due to our strong democracy in my opinion.

I'm happy if a 'Phoenix' ideology or something like that was used, but I find a Sinkerism ideology that excludes TRR offensive. You don't seem like you're intending to offend Syb. Maybe we should discuss this amongst one another in private.

[Syberis]

I'm happy if a 'Phoenix' ideology or something like that was used, but I find a Sinkerism ideology that excludes TRR offensive. You don't seem like you're intending to offend Syb. Maybe we should discuss this amongst one another in private.

I'm a reasonable man and can see the backlash as valid. So, here's how we're going to move forward; I'm going to rewrite the beginning of the piece when I have time to distinguish between two groups of regions.

1.) Sinkers - The Tagged Regions (TRR, Osiris, Lazarus, and Balder)
2.) The Refounder Regions - (Osi, Laz, Balder).

And, of course, TRR by name when needed. I will post again here when it is updated appropriately. However, do not expect a lot of my philosophy to address any of TRR's unique differences adequately; I would urge any Reject who feels able to do so to communicate with me in regards to it, however, or to create their own take.

Would this work for everyone involved? DIscussion is good, even of wording; challenging ideas and philosophies is how these ideas solidify and become valid, or crumble away if they should.

[Cormactopia Prime]

<snip>

That all seems reasonable. If I can help with historical perspective as a bit of an NS history buff, let me know!