Official Embassy of The South Pacific

[Cormactopia II]

First of all, while it's certainly true that I've changed alignments in the past, I've been raider far longer than your nation has even existed. You're in no way qualified to talk about my past in NationStates like you know something about it.

That's elitist even for you Cormac. It's a perfectly valid argument that a former defender turning raider on a dime might have ulterior motivations, especially considering Osiris' unstable history.

He's conflating my personal alignment history with Osiris adopting a raider alignment, and so are you, which isn't a valid argument. I've been personally raider for quite a while before Osiris officially adopted a raider alignment recently; in turn, Osiris has consistently leaned raider since late 2013, even when I have not personally leaned in that direction. None of this happened "on a dime." Osiris has consistently leaned raider for over two and a half years, and I've been raider for quite a while as well. For months before my current term as Pharaoh, I was involved in raider regions and was participating in raids.

There is no ulterior motivation here. Osiris is raider for the reasons we've stated, reasons that were recently made official but have endured for years. Unlike in the South Pacific, we have no need for ulterior motives in Osiris because our government doesn't need to engage in political pretense and misdirection in order to maintain power through manipulation.

Returning to the issue at hand: It's encouraging to hear from Imki that the SPSF hasn't completely submitted to the will of Glen-Rhodes and his defenderist faction, and I look forward to seeing them participating in raids soon!

[Glen-Rhodes]

Defenders think a military is too raider, and complain about it, if that military raids at all.

I know it's really hard for you guys to believe, but TRR, Lazarus, Spiritus, etc., have never actually complained about the SPSF participating in a raid. Our defender allies have been pretty good about that.

As for the rest of your rant: quelle suprise! A defender is happy their military is participating in defense ops!!

The point, which you seem to have missed, is that raiders raid.

No, we get the point, which you've just driven home in your response. The best argument you guys can make about allying with raiders is, hey, they won't try to topple us if we do! Alliances are built on trust, not fear. The proper response to a potential threat is to build up defense against it, not to cower and prostrate yourself in the hopes they'll decide to not attack you.


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[Cormactopia II]

Defenders think a military is too raider, and complain about it, if that military raids at all.

I know it's really hard for you guys to believe, but TRR, Lazarus, Spiritus, etc., have never actually complained about the SPSF participating in a raid. Our defender allies have been pretty good about that.

Yes, it's defenderists in the South Pacific -- like yourself -- who complain when the military raids. Not foreign defenders. That would look too unseemly.

The point, which you seem to have missed, is that raiders raid.

No, we get the point, which you've just driven home in your response. The best argument you guys can make about allying with raiders is, hey, they won't try to topple us if we do! Alliances are built on trust, not fear. The proper response to a potential threat is to build up defense against it, not to cower and prostrate yourself in the hopes they'll decide to not attack you.

I mean, the best argument I can make about raiding and aligning with raiders is that raiding is a lot of fun and most raiders are a lot of fun to hang out with. Raid chats, banter on the RMB, etc., are some of the most fun I've had in NationStates. The competitive aspect with defenders who don't make it all super political and moralistic, and can actually have fun with R/D, can also be a lot of fun.

The reason I brought up that the South Pacific is more likely to be raided if it's defender aligned has more to do with knowing how a lot of people in the South Pacific think, and less to do with how most raiders think. The hyper-political atmosphere of the South Pacific leads to thinking in terms of what is politically expedient, not what is fun and beneficial to the community. Raiding is fun and can build community, but I think there are quite a few people in the South Pacific who don't care much about that. What some, though clearly not all, probably do care about is that becoming defender aligned -- especially if you take a political and moralistic approach to it -- will make the South Pacific quite a few enemies, and will turn the region into a target.

[Glen-Rhodes]

There you go again. "Ally with raiders or you'll be a target!"


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[Funkadelia]

There you go again. "Ally with raiders or you'll be a target!"

It's happened to me before. Don't worry, it's not so bad.

[Tim-Opolis]

I know it's really hard for you guys to believe, but TRR, Lazarus, Spiritus, etc., have never actually complained about the SPSF participating in a raid. Our defender allies have been pretty good about that.

Yes, it's defenderists in the South Pacific -- like yourself -- who complain when the military raids. Not foreign defenders. That would look too unseemly.

So what you're saying is it's long-time TSP natives complaining, perhaps out of the fact that they're not fans of their military alignment, when the SPSF performs offensive operations. That does seem within their rights as citizens, aye. It's certainly very different from what we've been seeing from a fair few people on the invader side who have for the most part been entirely outside forces complaining about what TSP is doing.

TSP is independent, is it not? That means they do what they believe is in their interests. Their interests, not the interests outsiders decide for them. Afterall, was it not our Osiris Fraternal Order that spoke so actively with rhetoric against outside subversives trying to dictate foreign and internal policy? The South Pacific's military direction is for those within The South Pacific to decide, and The Grey Wardens are happy to continue working with our friends in the SPSF wherever our interests may overlap. Were TSP's policies to change, we'd respect its right as its own sovereign region to have those policies.

Plus, if the best argument one can make about invading is that it's a lot of fun, then someone hasn't checked out how lit the defender chats (and voice chats, I should note) are before, during, and after update.

[Cormactopia II]

So what you're saying is it's long-time TSP natives complaining, perhaps out of the fact that they're not fans of their military alignment, when the SPSF performs offensive operations. That does seem within their rights as citizens, aye. It's certainly very different from what we've been seeing from a fair few people on the invader side who have for the most part been entirely outside forces complaining about what TSP is doing.

Glen-Rhodes has been complaining about the South Pacific's military alignment since the minute he arrived in the South Pacific, long before he was a "long-time TSP native." Before him, and of course later in cooperation with him, Unibot was the one who constantly complained about the South Pacific's alignment. I'm not sure you can really consider Unibot a native of any region, given that his loyalty is to the defenderist ideology and not to any particular region, as he has repeatedly demonstrated when a region he's participating in comes into conflict with his ideology and he's willing to engage in all manner of subversion -- including espionage -- against them.

I don't think any raider, in making observations about the South Pacific's recent military activities, is seeking to force them to change. I know I'm not. What they do is up to them, I'm just pointing out to them that they're needlessly alienating a large section of gameplay, something they haven't wanted to do in the past. If they've determined that it's now in their regional interests to alienate raiders and to take the defender side, that's entirely up to them. I'm just pointing out the practical consequences of that decision, as I've also pointed out that there are practical consequences for a region adopting a raider alignment. Osiris could as easily be invaded by the Grey Wardens for our alignment as the South Pacific could be by The Invaders for their alignment.

In fact, I'm somewhat surprised the South Pacific has found itself embracing the Grey Wardens, an organization committed to invading any raider region -- presumably including Osiris, and whichever other Feeders and Sinkers the extremist leadership of the Grey Wardens may decide they consider "raider." Do the Grey Wardens consider Balder raider? How about the West Pacific? Which Feeders and Sinkers would the Grey Wardens be willing to invade in order to rid NationStates of "darkspawn" who contribute to just about every Feeder and Sinker, including the South Pacific? Given that the Grey Wardens are committed to invading raider regions, it's probably best if we all get a clear definition of what that means, so regions like the South Pacific can know which Feeders and Sinkers might be Thomas' target when he next feels like invading a raider region.

[Deadeye Jack]

I needed a good laugh. Thanks for that Cormac. Would have loved to see your face while you were typing that up.

The Warden stance on the South Pacific and other independent regions out there seems pretty clear and is in no way extreme. As Tim said we will continue to work with the South Pacific when they have defending interests, and we will meet them in the battlefield when they want to raid. We're not afraid of a little competition and we certainly won't be couping them when they "dare" to march to the beat of their own drum.

But lets get back to the topic you are making desperate posts to escape from which has been a discussion about the South Pacific, its military and how there are significant raider-aligned politicians criticizing and making vague threats at the stability of the region simply because they don't want to raid all the time.

[Cormactopia II]

I needed a good laugh. Thanks for that Cormac. Would have loved to see your face while you were typing that up.

The Warden stance on the South Pacific and other independent regions out there seems pretty clear and is in no way extreme. As Tim said we will continue to work with the South Pacific when they have defending interests, and we will meet them in the battlefield when they want to raid. We're not afraid of a little competition and we certainly won't be couping them when they "dare" to march to the beat of their own drum.

And what about independent regions that raid much more often than they defend, such as Balder, or regions that are explicitly raider, such as Osiris? Given the South Pacific's longtime commitment to Feeder and Sinker sovereignty, I would think it would be important for them to know whether you intend to invade any Feeder or Sinker. The Grey Wardens' stated ideology would seem to imply that Osiris, at the very least, would be a target for you. Yes? No?

But lets get back to the topic you are making desperate posts to escape from which has been a discussion about the South Pacific, its military and how there are significant raider-aligned politicians criticizing and making vague threats at the stability of the region simply because they don't want to raid all the time.

I've been discussing the South Pacific and its military at length. There have been no threats made, vague or otherwise. Acknowledging the reality that aligning themselves with defenders may make the South Pacific a target of certain raiders isn't a threat, it's just acknowledging reality.

This isn't about raiding "all the time." Raiders work with plenty of regions that also engage in defensive operations. This discussion started because the SPSF has been defending all the time, after Glen-Rhodes has systematically destroyed the South Pacific's relations with non-defender regions to the point that only two remain, Europeia and The North Pacific. There's a difference between becoming defender aligned and being independent and engaging in different types of operations.

[Sandaoguo]

There have been no threats made, vague or otherwise.

We don't see it that way.

[Unibot III]

Acknowledging the reality that aligning themselves with defenders may make the South Pacific a target of certain raiders isn't a threat, it's just acknowledging reality.

Osiris is a raider region, you've made that declaration officially. So, if you are who you say you are, then we've got no reason not to take your word for it that invaders, including Osiris, are a threat to TSP for as long as TSP doesn't act 'invader-ish' enough to please yourself and present company. A threat is a threat is a threat, as far as I can see.

[RiderSyl]

A threat is a threat is a threat, as far as I can see.

... what.

[Glen-Rhodes]

A threat is a threat is a threat, as far as I can see.

... what.

If it walks like a threat, talks like a threat.... And other common sayings.

[Evil Wolf]

... what.

If it walks like a threat, talks like a threat.... And other common sayings.

...what?

The logic of the argument being employed has devolved into Hallmark card themed babble speak.

[Syberis]

This is where I'd lIke to point out that Unibot is using "We" in regards to TSP again. Makes you wonder how much of Glen's rhetoric is his own.

[Cormactopia II]

There have been no threats made, vague or otherwise.

We don't see it that way.

Acknowledging the reality that aligning themselves with defenders may make the South Pacific a target of certain raiders isn't a threat, it's just acknowledging reality.

Osiris is a raider region, you've made that declaration officially. So, if you are who you say you are, then we've got no reason not to take your word for it that invaders, including Osiris, are a threat to TSP for as long as TSP doesn't act 'invader-ish' enough to please yourself and present company. A threat is a threat is a threat, as far as I can see.

If you're waiting for me to fall all over myself to convince you there was no threat, you're going to be waiting a very long time. I've already stated there was no threat made against the South Pacific, either by me personally or on behalf of Osiris. If you choose to believe a threat was made anyway, that's up to you. I'm not going to lose sleep over a region that has been hostile to Osiris for years indulging their world-renowned paranoia.

[Belschaft]

I'm thrilled at all the interest people have in TSP right now. I just wish you were paying more attention to the groundbreaking work we're doing in devolving power from forum government to the in-game region and expanding democracy, rather than obsessing with how many raids and defences we've done this week.

[Cormactopia II]

I'm thrilled at all the interest people have in TSP right now. I just wish you were paying more attention to the groundbreaking work we're doing in devolving power from forum government to the in-game region and expanding democracy, rather than obsessing with how many raids and defences we've done this week.

Hasn't that expansion of "democracy" seen you elected to represent the in-game region? Belschaft getting elected to something in the South Pacific is hardly groundbreaking news.

[Belschaft]

I'm thrilled at all the interest people have in TSP right now. I just wish you were paying more attention to the groundbreaking work we're doing in devolving power from forum government to the in-game region and expanding democracy, rather than obsessing with how many raids and defences we've done this week.

Hasn't that expansion of "democracy" seen you elected to represent the in-game region? Belschaft getting elected to something in the South Pacific is hardly groundbreaking news.

I think regional WA members directly electing the Delegate and having votes in the Assembly is pretty groundbreaking, personally. The reluctance of forum based governments to give up their monopoly on power is understandable, but in TSP we're handing it back to the region at large as fast as game mechanics allow.

[RiderSyl]

If it walks like a threat, talks like a threat.... And other common sayings.

...what?

The logic of the argument being employed has devolved into Hallmark card themed babble speak.

Exactly. What's next? "The more threatening they are, the more threatening they fall?"

[Roavin]

But why wouldn't raiders participate in a coup or invasion against the South Pacific absent any ties to the South Pacific

If the South Pacific offers nothing of value to raiders, why not raid it?

This, on its own, is a warning.

Osiris has consistently leaned raider for over two and a half years

This makes it a threat.

Well, "threat", rather. But still - nicely formulated yet threatening language. I don't see how that's not obvious.

[Cormactopia II]

Hasn't that expansion of "democracy" seen you elected to represent the in-game region? Belschaft getting elected to something in the South Pacific is hardly groundbreaking news.

I think regional WA members directly electing the Delegate and having votes in the Assembly is pretty groundbreaking, personally. The reluctance of forum based governments to give up their monopoly on power is understandable, but in TSP we're handing it back to the region at large as fast as game mechanics allow.

This new "handing it back" has resulted in the retention of the same Delegate you had before and the election of forum politicians to represent the in-game region. A cursory glance at a few key areas of your forum indicates that this new system is resulting in business as usual, which is you and Glen-Rhodes and the factions that support each of you engaging in a power struggle with each other and Tsunamy getting trapped in the middle. You can change up the routine, Bel, but at the end of the day it's still just a song and dance.

Well, "threat", rather. But still - nicely formulated yet threatening language. I don't see how that's not obvious.

I take it you missed my post in which I clearly stated that I'm not going to waste time trying to convince you that no threat has been made. If you want to perceive my words as threatening, and take me out of context to "prove" your point, feel free.

[Glen-Rhodes]

...what?

The logic of the argument being employed has devolved into Hallmark card themed babble speak.

Exactly. What's next? "The more threatening they are, the more threatening they fall?"

That's actually a good one. I'm gonna bookmark this.


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[Cormactopia II]

Exactly. What's next? "The more threatening they are, the more threatening they fall?"

That's actually a good one. I'm gonna bookmark this.

If Osiris were as paranoid as the South Pacific, we might perceive that as a threat.

[Sandaoguo]

If Osiris were as paranoid as the South Pacific, we might perceive that as a threat.

Nobody needs to attack Osiris for it to fall. You do a good job of ensuring that at least once a year.