The Invaders | Ego Sum Ideo Vici

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Ah, Moderate. I know who that one's pointed at. You're not the first and won't be the last. Rather be a moderate than an extremist

I'm not going to argue with your entire post, even though I strongly disagree with just about all of it -- especially the part about Europeia being allies and partners of raiders -- because I just called for raiders to stop bickering in public. So I'm not going to turn around and start publicly bickering with you.

But I am going to clarify, as I've already clarified to you in private, that when I referred to moderates I was referring to moderates in regions like the South Pacific and Europeia. I thought this was self-evident because I said "defenders and moderates in non-raider regions."

Yes, just to certify, we've discussed this, and I read through it becuase most who name us moderates also name us not true raiders, and I and TBH specifically have been accused of exactly what you said there. Can thank its usage by Cora and 94 among others for this one Bottom line, it's been clarified as a misunderstanding.

[Tano]

Moderate is such a bullshit term anyways. Can we all stop using it like it actually has use or meaning?

[Fedele]

Moderate is such a bullshit term anyways. Can we all stop using it like it actually has use or meaning?

Found the moderate.

[Glen-Rhodes]

The eagle used by The Invaders in their flag (back in, what, 2004?) was a design based on the version of the Reichsadler used by Nazi Germany.

Given the direction the eagle is facing, it's 100% the emblem of the *Nazi Party*, and not the Reichsadler.

The question here is not, as far as I can tell, whether this symbol was inspired by the one used by Nazi Germany as it obviously is (Inspired because of differences that include the wings, feather patterns, the head, feet, and - most obviously - the contents of the wreath) but whether this eagle actually represents racism.

The question is not whether The Invaders is a white supremacist group. The question is why on earth raiders are so fascinated with Nazi iconography. Though I would argue that thinking it's ok to use a slightly edited version the Nazi Party's emblem as their official logo is probably rooted in a base level of racism that most white people in the world share. (I'll wait to be attacked as an "SJW" for this.) I don't think a person of color or a Jew would've thought, "Hey, let's Google the Nazi Party for inspiration!"

The simple demand here is to stop using symbols that dog whistle to Nazis to the average person.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tano]

Moderate is such a bullshit term anyways. Can we all stop using it like it actually has use or meaning?

Found the moderate.

Guilty as charged

[T E Lawrence]

This is a preliminary assessment, as I haven't had the chance to talk to all parties involved.

At the time, Hydra Command still had not informed us of their decision, so I confronted them about it. Hydra Command's reasoning behind the decision was not made by insight or inference from myself, but by their leadership itself. According to them, Europeia and the LKE will not work with them if they continue to work with us. Furthermore, while they don't agree with the flag dispute, Europeia and the LKE are valuable allies because Hydra Command lacks a sizable support army.

These two statements are incorrect in multiple ways, as clarified by Onder.

I don't know Europeia's position, but this appears to be a misunderstanding of the situation on Hydra Command's part, at least for the LKE. I also don't know who twisted reality for Hydra Command, whether it be an inexperienced statesman or a "friendly" Grey Warden.

So much for that highly-vaunted 'Raider Unity'.

There is no Raider Unity, dear little offender.

Admitting to spying on similarly-aligned allies is sure to make people scramble to cooperate in the future, one would imagine.

Did I admit to spying? No.

I prefer diverting nearly all my "spying" efforts into collecting DKPs.

-- Lawrence.

[Guy]

What would be great is if people wouldn't dismiss the concerns of descendants of victims of the Nazi regimes, and ongoing victims of anti-Semitism perpetrated by neo-Nazis, as "self-serving lies" by "[NS] moderates" or 'butthurt defenders' or whatever the latest accusation is.

I don't think that anyone posting in this thread is a fascist, but I still think there is no good reason to utilise Nazi iconography. It would be better if The Invaders changed their flag, and I think everyone would be satisfied.

I accept that much of the 'escalation' in tone has come from those opposed to the flag, including by making at times unhelpful comments, but the underlying issue is still there.

At the end of the day, more of the blame probably falls on the one using Nazi iconography after being called out on it, than being falsely labelled a fascist for doing so.

[Cormactopia II]

It would be better if The Invaders changed their flag, and I think everyone would be satisfied.

Until Funkadelia gets mentioned in a raid report again, at least. Then who knows what smear campaign will be launched next.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Both The Invaders and The Invader Network contain members of Antifa, both in-game and in real life, who are aware of the message (or lack thereof) behind this symbolism that was being flown before any naysayers here began their NationStates career.

This is basically the "I have black friends" argument.

[Fedele]

...but I still think there is no good reason to utilise Nazi iconography. It would be better if The Invaders changed their flag, and I think everyone would be satisfied...

Fortunately, they are only using a design similar to the eagle used by Nazi Germany with the head, torso, wings, feet, wreath, and feather patterns all being different and the offensive element, being the swastika, having been removed and replaced with a fist icon, which is used to generally represent uprising or rebelliousness.

If they begin using the Nazi party's emblem, I would like to see it changed but would discuss it with them privately. As it is now, if they change the flag, they will be giving decision-making control over to defenders and demonstrating how easily they can be bullied.

[Tom Vasentius HYDRA]

Well I might as well say my piece. Ivo contacted me at 2 am asking if I intended to cut relations with The Invaders and after I confirmed that I did he asked me if I planned to notify him beforehand which I said I had planned to do. He wanted a reason and I think I said something along the lines of Euro and the LKE don't want to work with us if we work with you which was worded poorly due to my 2 AM brain, to explain that better Euro and the LKE won't support operations that The Invaders are involved in which was a part of my decisionto cut ties with The Invaders. So there indeed was no pressure to sever relations from The LKE or Europeia, it's simply a communication error I my part which I apologize for. However that combined with some troubling things I've heard about Ivo's conduct are what led me to decide to sever relations with The Invaders. I planned on writing an announcement about it sometime today or tomorrow but it looks like Ivo was nice enough to make his post before I made mine after our little chat on skype.

[Cormactopia II]

Well I might as well say my piece. Ivo contacted me at 2 am asking if I intended to cut relations with The Invaders and after I confirmed that I did he asked me if I planned to notify him beforehand which I said I had planned to do. He wanted a reason and I think I said something along the lines of Euro and the LKE don't want to work with us if we work with you which was worded poorly due to my 2 AM brain, to explain that better Euro and the LKE won't support operations that The Invaders are involved in which was a part of my decisionto cut ties with The Invaders. So there indeed was no pressure to sever relations from The LKE or Europeia, it's simply a communication error I my part which I apologize for. However that combined with some troubling things I've heard about Ivo's conduct are what led me to decide to sever relations with The Invaders. I planned on writing an announcement about it sometime today or tomorrow but it looks like Ivo was nice enough to make his post before I made mine after our little chat on skype.

So you're confirming that you did, in fact, terminate relations with a fellow raider region primarily because you were concerned about lack of support from two non-raider regions in the future?

[Tom Vasentius HYDRA]

Well I might as well say my piece. Ivo contacted me at 2 am asking if I intended to cut relations with The Invaders and after I confirmed that I did he asked me if I planned to notify him beforehand which I said I had planned to do. He wanted a reason and I think I said something along the lines of Euro and the LKE don't want to work with us if we work with you which was worded poorly due to my 2 AM brain, to explain that better Euro and the LKE won't support operations that The Invaders are involved in which was a part of my decisionto cut ties with The Invaders. So there indeed was no pressure to sever relations from The LKE or Europeia, it's simply a communication error I my part which I apologize for. However that combined with some troubling things I've heard about Ivo's conduct are what led me to decide to sever relations with The Invaders. I planned on writing an announcement about it sometime today or tomorrow but it looks like Ivo was nice enough to make his post before I made mine after our little chat on skype.

So you're confirming that you did, in fact, terminate relations with a fellow raider region primarily because you were concerned about lack of support from two non-raider regions in the future?

Partial reasoning, "that combined with some troubling things I've heard about Ivo's conduct are what led me to decide to sever relations with The Invaders."

[Guy]

...but I still think there is no good reason to utilise Nazi iconography. It would be better if The Invaders changed their flag, and I think everyone would be satisfied...

Fortunately, they are only using a design similar to the eagle used by Nazi Germany with the head, torso, wings, feet, wreath, and feather patterns all being different and the offensive element, being the swastika, having been removed and replaced with a fist icon, which is used to generally represent uprising or rebelliousness.

If they begin using the Nazi party's emblem, I would like to see it changed but would discuss it with them privately. As it is now, if they change the flag, they will be giving decision-making control over to defenders and demonstrating how easily they can be bullied.

What matters is the perception, not whether it's a pixel-by-pixel replica. I recognise that some of the elements are different, although not to the extent that you make them out to be. That doesn't mean that the overall iconography is not a Nazi one.

And again, dismissing this issue as NS politics should honestly be beneath you.

[Cormactopia II]

Partial reasoning, "that combined with some troubling things I've heard about Ivo's conduct are what led me to decide to sever relations with The Invaders."

Right, I did catch that. But it's fairly clear that the primary reason was you didn't want Europeia to be mad at you.

I have to admit I find that more than a little concerning.

[Tom Vasentius HYDRA]

Partial reasoning, "that combined with some troubling things I've heard about Ivo's conduct are what led me to decide to sever relations with The Invaders."

Right, I did catch that. But it's fairly clear that the primary reason was you didn't want Europeia to be mad at you.

I have to admit I find that more than a little concerning.

If that's what you think okay, if you'd like to talk more about the other reason I stated feel free to shoot me a message over discord or skype and I'd be glad to talk about it.

[T E Lawrence]

Hydra Command has done a little explaining.

Director Tom Vasentius has admitted that the reasoning given to me behind Hydra Command's decision, on how the LKE and Europeia will no longer work with them if they continue to work with us, is incorrect. This sentiment has been further expressed by LKE and Europeian officials, in that no "external pressure" was placed on Hydra Command and the only thing brought up is that they will not work with The Invaders.

As such, on behalf of The Invaders, I offer a full apology to the LKE and Europeia for our harsh comments regarding both the external pressure placed on Hydra Command and the relationship of the imperialist and independent sphere with raider regions.

There are apparently other reasons for this severance of relations as well. Given The Black Hawks' stance on any region that either Vaculatestar and I lead, Hydra Command believes that cutting us off with alleviate the problem to this so-called "Raider Unity". Furthermore, Tom Vasentius alleges that I utilize the same Frak-designed script that Bob Moran used to grab IP addresses, despite having no evidence whatsoever.

No person hates scripts more than me. I was a defender when I first began delving into the world of intelligence under my mentors. This is the "troubling conduct" that Tom Vasentius is mentioning. Is it time for Hydra Command to break off relations with all established raiding regions because a few individuals in each organization work to maintain informational security?

-- Lawrence.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Fun fact -

That specific eagle design, specifically the top bar of the wings and the < > shape of the wing tips (instead of \ / ) are fairly rare among images, making it somewhat easy to trace.

I dig a little internets digging, and as far as I can trace it back, cleaned up variants and remakes of that specific design trace back to a 2007 thread I found on a forum, and the oldest instance of that specific design I've found to date - http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... -VW-emblem

There, you'll see it's adapted as a Volkswagen emblem, funny enough. In the thread, someone claims to be the original maker, and someone else references a thread for stickers in an older version of said forum I can't find. It's recognized that it's based on the a Nazi symbol, and some posters seem to indicate that this is a prank of some kind that's been around that forum a few times. Without knowing exactly when the original Invaders flag was created, I wouldn't be surprised if the mentioned older thread was the actual source, since we're definitely getting closer in terms of going back through the years - or if, vice versa, the flag was originally shopped by the invaders (adding the fourth bar not present in similar images to the top of the wings and changing the shape of the wingtips), that forum stole it from them instead

Not really making a point, just got bored and decided to trace it back.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

There are apparently other reasons for this severance of relations as well. Given The Black Hawks' stance on any region that either Vaculatestar and I lead, Hydra Command believes that cutting us off with alleviate the problem to this so-called "Raider Unity".

I assure anyone reading that TBH has made no pressure along these lines. We've been quite clear that we hold nothing against anyone who does choose to work with those we will not work with - we simply will not participate on those operations where regions led by the listed individuals are present.

Furthermore, Tom Vasentius alleges that I utilize the same Frak-designed script that Bob Moran used to grab IP addresses, despite having no evidence whatsoever. No person hates scripts more than me.

Regardless of whether or not it's the same one Frak has been known to use, for which there's really no possible proof either way, you apparently didn't hate scripts enough not to use an image-in-signature based IP collection tool to secretly scrape IP's off at least the Spiritus and Ainur forums, along with who the hell knows where else.

[T E Lawrence]

Furthermore, Tom Vasentius alleges that I utilize the same Frak-designed script that Bob Moran used to grab IP addresses, despite having no evidence whatsoever. No person hates scripts more than me.

Regardless of whether or not it's the same one Frak has been known to use, for which there's really no possible proof either way, you apparently didn't hate scripts enough not to use an image-in-signature based IP collection tool to secretly scrape IP's off at least the Spiritus and Ainur forums, along with who the hell knows where else.

I did not. Your ignorance on this subject is mortifying.

-- Lawrence.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Regardless of whether or not it's the same one Frak has been known to use, for which there's really no possible proof either way, you apparently didn't hate scripts enough not to use an image-in-signature based IP collection tool to secretly scrape IP's off at least the Spiritus and Ainur forums, along with who the hell knows where else.

I did not. Your ignorance on this subject is mortifying.

-- Lawrence.

I'm pretty sure you did, but I don't really have a dog in this fight.

[Tim-Opolis]

Regardless of whether or not it's the same one Frak has been known to use, for which there's really no possible proof either way, you apparently didn't hate scripts enough not to use an image-in-signature based IP collection tool to secretly scrape IP's off at least the Spiritus and Ainur forums, along with who the hell knows where else.

I did not. Your ignorance on this subject is mortifying.

-- Lawrence.

Given that I vividly remember having to edit your signature due to that, as well as limiting profile-editing capabilities of our Free Spirit mask to further counter potential security risks, I'm pretty sure it's your feigned ignorance that is, as you say, mortifying.

[Greyghost]

Regardless of whether or not it's the same one Frak has been known to use, for which there's really no possible proof either way, you apparently didn't hate scripts enough not to use an image-in-signature based IP collection tool to secretly scrape IP's off at least the Spiritus and Ainur forums, along with who the hell knows where else.

I did not.

-- Lawrence.

You seem to have amnesia... You did in Ainur.

[T E Lawrence]

I did not. Your ignorance on this subject is mortifying.

-- Lawrence.

I'm pretty sure you did, but I don't really have a dog in this fight.

You seem to have amnesia... You did in Ainur.

I did not "scrape IPs" to catch Greyghost. If you'd like to hear it from a more credible source, ask Severisen.

Given that I vividly remember having to edit your signature due to that, as well as limiting profile-editing capabilities of our Free Spirit mask to further counter potential security risks, I'm pretty sure it's your feigned ignorance that is, as you say, mortifying.

But did you find anything in the signature? No you did not, because there was nothing there. You limited profile-editing capabilities because Kemi said that I scraped her IP off the Spiritus forum, when in reality, I discovered her involvement through private conversations.

-- Lawrence.

[Tim-Opolis]

But did you find anything in the signature? No you did not, because there was nothing there. You limited profile-editing capabilities because Kemi said that I scraped her IP off the Spiritus forum, when in reality, I discovered her involvement through private conversations.

-- Lawrence.

Funny enough, Ivo, I did find stuff in the signature, hence why I then had to limit editing capabilities due to existing potential risks of keeping it unlimited. I mean, feel free to keep this narrative up, doesn't change the facts of the situation.