The Invaders | Ego Sum Ideo Vici

[Libetarian Republics]

This isn't the first time

viewtopic.php?p=29245727#p29245727

Of course. Vrolondia's outrage, a person that hardly participates in the R/D dichotomy, was ignored.

[Sandaoguo]

It's not the Reichsadler. It's literally the Nazi Party emblem with a fist photoshopped into it.

"The Reichsadler ("Imperial Eagle") was the heraldic eagle, derived from the Roman eagle standard, used by the Holy Roman Emperors and in modern coats of arms of Germany, including those of the Second German Empire (1871-1918), the Weimar Republic (1919-1933) and the "Third Reich" (Nazi Germany, 1933-1945)."

So, you're wrong. If it was "literally the Nazi Party emblem" it would be a tiled Swastika, the universally recognized symbol of Nazism. Serious, how do you not know that?

What amuses about the old Invaders Army flag is that it appears to have a black power symbol below the Reichsadler. So, if what Funk and Glen say is true and somehow the inclusion of the Reichsadler makes all inderations of Invaders since 2005 into "Nazis", then the inclusion of the Black Power symbol must mean that Invaders Army were Black Power Nazis. Black Skin Heads, if you would.

And let's not even get into the bad Latin of the Motto, which I can only guess is suppose to very roughly translate to "I am therefore I conquer". So maybe Invaders Army, and therefore The Invaders, are Black Skinhead Nazis who love Julius Caesar and René Descartes? This is all getting so confusing.

Another possibility exists however. Is it possible, and follow me on this now, that maybe, just maybe, we're all reading into this far too much and being completely silly?

Nah, I didn't think so either.

This stuff is so easy to google, I honestly don't know why you think you're right here.

These are the Reichsadler:





This is the Parteisadler, aka the official emblem of the Nazi Party:



And here's the flag of The Invaders:

Regardless of the intention, using this flag, especially after these facts have been pointed out, is grossly inappropriate and offensive.

Hell has frozen over. We agree on something.

[Scardino]

This stuff is so easy to google, I honestly don't know why you think you're right here.

This is really getting to be pedantic but he was quoting the Wikipedia article that he linked to in his comment.

The eagle used by The Invaders in their flag (back in, what, 2004?) was a design based on the version of the Reichsadler used by Nazi Germany. The question here is not, as far as I can tell, whether this symbol was inspired by the one used by Nazi Germany as it obviously is (Inspired because of differences that include the wings, feather patterns, the head, feet, and - most obviously - the contents of the wreath) but whether this eagle actually represents racism. That is a legitimate question, all outrage aside, because it is not clear that every symbol used by Hitler's government is automatically to be considered racist by association. While my opinion is clearly not shared by all here, it seems to me that the racist element of the emblem was the swastika, which is not present in this logo. As swastikas were still allowed on this site at the time of the logo's introduction, they could have simply had the swastika as part of the logo if they really wanted to embrace or glorify Nazism.

Allow me to further illustrate my point. Am I to assume that every person on NationStates who flies the hammer and sickle that was used by the Soviets is a proponent of the mass murder of academics, religious people, artists, members of the bourgeois, and dissenters? That would be an absurd assumption. Yet some would have us believe that flying an eagle designed after or derived from this one marks support for the atrocities carried out under Hitler.

Perhaps they had more appreciation for contrast and minimalist design than mass murder and racial prejudice. That would explain further minimizing the design elements of the eagle. This all seems to be an example of some people working very hard to be upset.

It is no secret that Lone Wolves United is perpetual enemies with fascist and Nazi regions in NationStates. With that in mind, Lone Wolves United enjoyed close relations with The Invaders from the inception of our organization to the demise of theirs. The Invaders, too, was a relentless enemy of Nazi regions. Making these accusations now long after the founders have been gone for some time seems a cruel way to tarnish their legacy.

[RiderSyl]

I'd rather there not be any Nazi imagery on NationStates, but that's something to call Max about.

If The Invaders want to keep the modified Parteisadler, then that's their decision to make. Nothing anyone else can really do about it.

Regardless of the intention, using this flag, especially after these facts have been pointed out, is grossly inappropriate and offensive.

I personally share Onderkelkia's opinion on this.

[Brunhizzle]

I'd rather there not be any Nazi imagery on NationStates, but that's something to call Max about.

If The Invaders want to keep the modified Parteisadler, then that's their decision to make. Nothing anyone else can really do about it.

We can continue not to work with organizations that don't understand the bad taste that is operating with Nazi imagery.

[RiderSyl]

We can continue not to work with organizations that don't understand the bad taste that is operating with Nazi imagery.

From my past experience as a raider, I learned about the attitude that military-only raider regions have towards other region's policies. It's typically very apathetic.
I see it as bad taste too. I would change the flag, but I'm not in any position to do so. No-one that feels that way here is in any position to do so.

If you want, you can believe that you can dictate internal policy with Knot and company.
I'd rather accept that it's out of my control and not waste any more time complaining about it.

[Cormactopia II]

I'd rather there not be any Nazi imagery on NationStates, but that's something to call Max about.

If The Invaders want to keep the modified Parteisadler, then that's their decision to make. Nothing anyone else can really do about it.

We can continue not to work with organizations that don't understand the bad taste that is operating with Nazi imagery.

Would Europeia have worked with them anyway?

[Brunhizzle]

[
Would Europeia have worked with them anyway?

Trinnien mentioned earlier that Europeia withdrew from Singapore because of the Nazi imagery but beyond that we had worked with both KGB and TCB in the past.

Personally, I don't believe we can ask anyone with Jewish heritage to ignore the obvious heritage that TI's flag owns simply because they maintain that it isn't that big of a deal. This isn't a matter of working with another region's military despite drama and outside pressure but wanting to create an environment in which all non-discriminatory groups can enjoy their stay.

[Cormactopia II]

Trinnien mentioned earlier that Europeia withdrew from Singapore because of the Nazi imagery but beyond that we had worked with both KGB and TCB in the past.

I'm talking about specifically The Invaders, not The Kingdom of Great Britain or The Communist Bloc. Would Europeia have even worked with them before the flag issue came up? My understanding is that Europeia was already averse to working with Ivo (Knot/T E Lawrence).

Personally, I don't believe we can ask anyone with Jewish heritage to ignore the obvious heritage that TI's flag owns simply because they maintain that it isn't that big of a deal. This isn't a matter of working with another region's military despite drama and outside pressure but wanting to create an environment in which all non-discriminatory groups can enjoy their stay.

I think this can go too far, and in this case it has gone too far. The Invaders don't intend to embrace Nazism with their flag, despite the shared imagery. They're being equated with Nazis by some participants in this thread, and there are calls to shun them and refuse to work with them. Where does that end? Should Osiris be equated with fascists because Fedele is our Marshal General, his flag is an anarcho-fascist joke flag, and we won't either force him to remove his flag or remove him from office? Should we also be shunned?

I think what the South Pacific and Europeia actually want is to create an environment in which everyone plays by their rules, and anything that offends them is disallowed. That has repercussions far beyond this issue. Why should The Invaders, or anyone else, be dictated to by the South Pacific or Europeia? If The Invaders were actually fascist, I would be right there with you on this issue, but they aren't and you all know it. That you are offended is not sufficient reason to shun a region.

[RiderSyl]

Looking back, when The Invaders reboot by Knot was introduced to Gameplay in early June, the very first comment brought this whole issue up.

I must say, your flag does still look fascist as hell

The comment that LR pointed out at the top of this page brought this whole issue up again in early July.

But nobody cared. That makes me suspicious of whether this stuff right now is a natural reaction to the flag, manufactured controversy, or both.

EDIT: ALL THE EDITS!

[Cormactopia II]

Looking back, when The Invaders reboot by Knot was introduced to Gameplay in early June, the very first comment brought this whole issue up.

I must say, your flag does still look fascist as hell

But nobody cared then. That makes me suspicious of whether this is now a natural reaction to the flag, manufactured controversy, or both.

Yeah, it's definitely suspicious that this issue has been pointed out at least twice before this, and it has only become a controversy after The Invaders sent a little gameplay taunting Funkadelia's way, and after Europeia got angry that The Invaders were included in the Singapore raid without Europeia's knowledge or consent.

There is no question in my mind that this is a politically motivated smear campaign. I'm sure there are some participating in this controversy who are genuinely offended by The Invaders flag because they actually care about this imagery, but I don't think that's what drove this to become a controversy in the first place.

[Falapatorius]

I think this can go too far, and in this case it has gone too far. The Invaders don't intend to embrace Nazism with their flag, despite the shared imagery. They're being equated with Nazis by some participants in this thread, and there are calls to shun them and refuse to work with them. Where does that end? Should Osiris be equated with fascists because Fedele is our Marshal General, his flag is an anarcho-fascist joke flag, and we won't either force him to remove his flag or remove him from office? Should we also be shunned?

They may not have intended that, but it is what it is. Offense has been taken.

I think what the South Pacific and Europeia actually want is to create an environment in which everyone plays by their rules, and anything that offends them is disallowed. That has repercussions far beyond this issue. Why should The Invaders, or anyone else, be dictated to by the South Pacific or Europeia? If The Invaders were actually fascist, I would be right there with you on this issue, but they aren't and you all know it. That you are offended is not sufficient reason to shun a region.

You have a point there. I would argue, however, that toxicity (relative to the observer) is no reason to coup a region.

[T E Lawrence]

Regardless of the intention, using this flag, especially after these facts have been pointed out, is grossly inappropriate and offensive.

I personally share Onderkelkia's opinion on this.

With all due respect, given that I am not aware of any real-life personal circumstances, how qualified are you (and everyone else) to be able to make the claim on why this is "grossly inappropriate and offensive?"

I can tell you what's on my side. Both The Invaders and The Invader Network contain members of Antifa, both in-game and in real life, who are aware of the message (or lack thereof) behind this symbolism that was being flown before any naysayers here began their NationStates career. The ideology of an apolitical military organization goes without say and stands in stark contrast to the blind accusations pf neo-Nazism and fascism from Funkadelia and Glen-Rhodes. The fact that Invaders Army has conducted offensive operations in Nazi regions further magnifies this disparity.

I am aware that there are two types of antagonists in this thread. Defenders who are upset about losing are not included in the group I'd like to continue to talk to regarding this subject.

Thank you to the individuals and organizations who stand in solidarity with us, because they recognize this self-evident fact and will not cave in to the appeasement demands of influential regions, which is an epidemic that has apparently struck quite a few formerly-powerful regions of late.

Personally, I don't believe we can ask anyone with Jewish heritage to ignore the obvious heritage that TI's flag owns simply because they maintain that it isn't that big of a deal. This isn't a matter of working with another region's military despite drama and outside pressure but wanting to create an environment in which all non-discriminatory groups can enjoy their stay.

I'm... absolutely astounded. See my above comments.

-- Lawrence.

[Brunhizzle]

Personally, I don't believe we can ask anyone with Jewish heritage to ignore the obvious heritage that TI's flag owns simply because they maintain that it isn't that big of a deal. This isn't a matter of working with another region's military despite drama and outside pressure but wanting to create an environment in which all non-discriminatory groups can enjoy their stay.

I'm... absolutely astounded. See my above comments.

-- Lawrence.

My opinion comes not from a dislike of fascism or from a position of power in Europeia, despite attempts to say that I'm trying to exert influence over your internal policies as such, but rather as someone that has suffered from antisemitism repeatedly. I don't believe you or your organization are Nazis, I just think you're unwilling to change a flag that you have history with. While I understand that position, I don't support it, and it's not in me to ignore that part of my life in order to say that others should support it while I cannot.

Despite what has been said, Europeia doesn't want to create a NS that "plays by their rules." It's ridiculous to believe that we're trying to accomplish that by refusing to work with TI. Our interest lies purely in not associating with any Nazi imagery, regardless of the intention behind it.

[T E Lawrence]

Quick informal announcement here.

We no longer hold relations with Hydra Command. Due to the fact that members of the Department of Intelligence had discovered their quiet decision to cut ties a few days ago, The Invaders Command Council has begun the preemptive demolition of embassies today.

In addition to this, friends of the organization have passed along messages regarding attempts to poach talented Invaders into Hydra Command before their decision was presented to the Command Council.

We cannot allow such actions to pass without consequence.

This decision was made due to the fact that Hydra Command seeks to appease their political allies in Europeia and the LKE by forfeiting our relationship. Under the threat of the withdrawal of imperialist and independent support from their invasions, they have chosen to side with their non-raider friends.

In the past, it has always been the raiders that dictate imperialist/independent policy towards them. It is disappointing to see that the tide has changed.

In the interest of raiding, there will be no further sanctions taken. The Cause, as defined by Domination6, is a vital part of our Code: "Do what is best for invading/raiding no matter of rank, region, or faction."

Signed,

The Invaders Command Council

[Tim-Opolis]

Given that The Invaders themselves are admitting this news was gleaned by their intelligence department, it would seem that HydraCom clearly aren't losing much from a relationship in which one party was spying on the other. I must say, however, that Hydra Command's planned actions are refreshing to hear and it's nice to see other invader groups following the standard towards The Invaders set by The Black Hawks. The fascist symbologies in the flag of of Ivo's region, I'm sure are not the only reason Hydra had.

The follow-up rhetoric from The Invaders in regards to dictating independent and imperialist military policy only confirms that groups along the likes of The Invaders view groups like LKE and ERN as militaries with policies to be dictated rather than military partners. It's truly a disappointing admission, and I certainly would hope other invader regions don't harbor similar beliefs.

Either way, HydraCom, you kids are alright.

[Rare Steakman Medium]

I am a little disappointed with Hydra. Surely they of all people know that deserting allies for fair weather friends is, even if a good short term move, a frankly idiotic long term one. Hopefully our regions can move past this so the vultures who are already sniffing around this thread don't gain the solid upper hand.

[Onderkelkia]

This decision was made due to the fact that Hydra Command seeks to appease their political allies in Europeia and the LKE by forfeiting our relationship. Under the threat of the withdrawal of imperialist and independent support from their invasions, they have chosen to side with their non-raider friends.

Following a query from The Invaders regarding whether we wished to establish a military relationship, the LKE notified you on 8th July that we could not participate in operations involving The Invaders (barring special circumstances, such as large anti-Nazi missions drawing on a wide range of regions). We explained that we had confirmed that The Invaders' flag is a modified version of the emblem of the Nazi Party and that we believe it is inappropriate.

At no point has the LKE demanded or even suggested that HYDRA Command (or any other region) cease all cooperation with The Invaders as a condition of receiving support from the Imperial Army. Our position is merely that the LKE will not ordinarily deploy in any other region's missions if The Invaders are also participants. As such, when the Lord High Steward and the Chief of the Imperial General Staff were each approached with requests to support a HYDRA Command-led operation where The Invaders were deployed in the last few days, they declined to order an LKE deployment, in line with our earlier decision.

The issue was solely about how the LKE's own forces are deployed. We feel that The Invaders flag, as a modified version of the emblem of the Nazi Party, risks causing grave offence and we do not want our forces working alongside units associated with it. We have not sought to pressure any other regions.

The LKE has not stated or even implied that The Invaders are a Nazi or Fascist region. For anyone familiar with the details, such a claim would clearly be absurd and preposterous, although natives in raided regions and others outside of the Gameplay community may well make that assumption once they see the flag. However, that does not make it acceptable for you to use Nazi symbolism, even if there is historical precedent for doing so. The LKE believes the use of the Nazi Party emblem as a regional flag, regardless of the underlying motivation, to be unacceptable. That is what our position amounts to.

You refer to the 'political allies' of HYDRA Command in your statement. The LKE is not an ally of HYDRA Command, either by treaty or in the informal sense that they are a regular military partner - indeed, I do not recall any occasion where the LKE has provided support to a HYDRA Command-led mission before this recent situation. As such, given the absence of a prior relationship between the LKE and HYDRA Command, it is ridiculous to suggest we have threatened to withdraw support from their invasions over this issue, because we have never committed to support their invasions in the past. The LKE most likely would provide reinforcements to HYDRA Command, as part of a mutual relationship, provided that the operations concerned did not violate our policies. If we had supplied reinforcements to HYDRA Command in Singapore, we would have been going against our previously stated position.

The LKE does not see the issue of whether The Invaders flag is acceptable as a 'political' one in a gameplay sense of the word. Our objection is that use of the flag is inappropriate in real-life terms. I do not believe that there is any reason whatsoever why concern about The Invaders flag would be confined to Independent and Imperialist regions; I imagine all sorts of regions find the Nazi emblem objectionable. Ultimately, the only people who are seeking to create a divide between raider regions and Imperialist/Independent regions are those who are trying to portray political regions negatively within the raider community. If raiders start using the term 'political' as a term of abuse, it is inevitably going to offend political regions. There have been some comments about Europeia in this thread. I have seen nothing in any remarks by Europeian officials to suggest they believe The Invaders are a Nazi or Fascist region. Having discussed this issue with the President of Europeia on 15th July, I can confirm that his position on this is solely to do with The Invaders flag being inappropriate and that nothing about Ivo as an individual was a factor. To my knowledge, the only region who would not work with The Invaders on the grounds that Ivo is unacceptable as an individual are The Black Hawks, given the statement they released following the "Predator" scandal, and they are the most illustrious and distinguished raider region in the game. So any attempt to create a Raider/Independent divide on this issue is downright ridiculous.

In the past, it has always been the raiders that dictate imperialist/independent policy towards them. It is disappointing to see that the tide has changed.

The first sentence of this quote is the single most bewildering statement I have ever read in the Gameplay forum.

If you think that LKE policy has ever been 'dictated' - or even particularly influenced - by raiders, at any point in our nearly eleven years of existence, then you are grievously wrong. The LKE has always enjoyed mutually beneficial relations with the set of raider regions with which we have worked, but that has never extended to either group influencing the gameplay policies of the other. Precisely the same applies to Europeia and TNI when it was active.

From the outset, the LKE and TNI have always driven our own agenda against the FRA and other super-regional organisations. At many points in history, our own military power (in terms of non-updater resources) has exceeded that of most raider regions, so they would not have been in a position to dictate to us even if they had wished to do so or we had been willing to let them. More fundamentally than that, our entire approach to the Gameplay word is based around amassing power for our regions, so we would hardly be willing to let our interests be subordinated to those of other regions. If you spoke to people who were in the leadership of The Black Hawks and The Black Riders, and suggest to them that they dictated TNI or LKE policy in the 2011-14 period, when we cooperated the most, I am sure that they would advise you this was not the case. The idea that they could or would have dictated to us is comical.

If you think "the tide has changed", then you simply need to look at history. For instance, I can recall ordering TNI and LKE forces out of a Lone Wolves United occupation of Anarchy because The Greater German Reich were present in the mission - I do not suggest that The Invaders are comparable to GGR, but the point is that the LKE and TNI have always been willing to cross raider regions when they have worked with parties we have objected to.

"It is disappointing" that you think in this way, as if the policies or Independent and Imperialist regions should or could be "dictated" by raider regions. I had previously given you the benefit of the doubt in this respect, despite evidence presented to me by others that you held independent regions in less than stellar regard. I am genuinely disappointed to discover that your attitude towards Independent regions is as insulting as the evidence suggested it was.

[Leafish]

So much for that highly-vaunted 'Raider Unity'.

Admitting to spying on similarly-aligned allies is sure to make people scramble to cooperate in the future, one would imagine.

[Cormactopia II]

I must say, however, that Hydra Command's planned actions are refreshing to hear and it's nice to see other invader groups following the standard towards The Invaders set by The Black Hawks...

Either way, HydraCom, you kids are alright.

If you're being praised by defenders for your disruption(s) to raider unity, you're doing something wrong.

You all -- all of you who are doing this bickering, not just The Invaders, not just HYDRA -- need to get your acts together. Cutting relations with fellow raiders because of pressure from defenders and whatever Europeia even is these days? Spying on each other? Attacking each other in public? It's absolutely ridiculous, as a raider region trying to stay above the feuds, trying to navigate the tangled web of raider regions that are bickering with each other right now. Raiders are better than this, and the raider sphere is being utterly demolished by defenders and moderates in non-raider regions who are dictating the terms of raider capitulation to their demands. And most raiders are surrendering to their demands, for some reason. Knock it off. You're disgracing the raiders who came before you.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I am a little disappointed with Hydra. Surely they of all people know that deserting allies for fair weather friends is, even if a good short term move, a frankly idiotic long term one. Hopefully our regions can move past this so the vultures who are already sniffing around this thread don't gain the solid upper hand.

Funny term, that. Fair weather friends. Last time I heard it, Europeia and TBH were being called it by DEN command for helping Moderation investigate Predator and taking a strong stance against it, rather than participate in the mentality of "if we don't say anything, they'll never know." If being a responsible member of Gameplay that strives to preserve our reputation and style of play is being a fair weather friend, so be it. Oh, and on top of that - at least in my experience, everyone I've seen accused of a being a fair weather friend has been far more straightforward, willing to work through issues, and reliable than the accusing party. Even I f Hydra is indeed specifically choosing Europeia over you as accused, even that would be fairly understandable - they're larger, less controversial, and have less overlapping members. There are times when diplomatic choices must be made that may not be easy, but they must be made nonetheless. Perhaps a few instances of losing the support of other allies and the stress of organizing around that pushed a choice to be made? And I f you're speaking of long term moves, I think the "alternatives" have been around longer, and if history is to show, may well continue to be ... But I supose I'll let HYDRA answer to that, as I've drifted in topic a bit.

Given that The Invaders themselves are admitting this news was gleaned by their intelligence department, it would seem that HydraCom clearly aren't losing much from a relationship in which one party was spying on the other. I must say, however, that Hydra Command's planned actions are refreshing to hear and it's nice to see other invader groups following the standard towards The Invaders set by The Black Hawks. The fascist symbologies in the flag of of Ivo's region, I'm sure are not the only reason Hydra had.

The follow-up rhetoric from The Invaders in regards to dictating independent and imperialist military policy only confirms that groups along the likes of The Invaders view groups like LKE and ERN as militaries with policies to be dictated rather than military partners. It's truly a disappointing admission, and I certainly would hope other invader regions don't harbor similar beliefs.

Either way, HydraCom, you kids are alright.

Unfortunately, inter-raider intelligence matters seem to be all too common today.

I think you're right about other factors in the decision. (Hey Tim, don't forget we're in bed together ;P)

Ding ding. You see, some of us actually view them as allies and partners.

In the interest of raiding, there will be no further sanctions taken. The Cause, as defined by Domination6, is a vital part of our Code: "Do what is best for invading/raiding no matter of rank, region, or faction."

Signed,

The Invaders Command Council

Council? THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

... In seriousness, that code sounds like something straight out of a Cora dispatch, and similar thoughts have been extended to the point of "no matter of moderation policy." Strong rhetoric and impressionable kids, great mix eh? Point is, what's ultimately best for raiding is continuing to exist, and extremist rhetoric, edging on the rules, and creating fanatics are not supporting factors thereof.

If we had supplied reinforcements to HYDRA Command in Singapore, we would have been going against our previously stated position.

To my knowledge, the only region who would not work with The Invaders on the grounds that Ivo is unacceptable as an individual are The Black Hawks, given the statement they released following the "Predator" scandal, and they are the most illustrious and distinguished raider region in the game. So any attempt to create a Raider/Independent divide on this issue is downright ridiculous.

I know the feeling.

<3

I must say, however, that Hydra Command's planned actions are refreshing to hear and it's nice to see other invader groups following the standard towards The Invaders set by The Black Hawks...

Either way, HydraCom, you kids are alright.

If you're being praised by defenders for your disruption(s) to raider unity, you're doing something wrong.

You all -- all of you who are doing this bickering, not just The Invaders, not just HYDRA -- need to get your acts together. Cutting relations with fellow raiders because of pressure from defenders and whatever Europeia even is these days? Spying on each other? Attacking each other in public? It's absolutely ridiculous, as a raider region trying to stay above the feuds, trying to navigate the tangled web of raider regions that are bickering with each other right now. Raiders are better than this, and the raider sphere is being utterly demolished by defenders and moderates in non-raider regions who are dictating the terms of raider capitulation to their demands. And most raiders are surrendering to their demands, for some reason. Knock it off. You're disgracing the raiders who came before you.

Unity is as intact as it has been for years so long as no one is openly fighting each other's occupations. These comments and rhetoric towards allIes have long been around in certain circles, just in regional chats and command level chats instead of in the open. Frankly, I'd rather have people insulting "allies" in public then behind their backs. Least this way we're letting it all out

Some of us cut relations entirely of our own accords, thank you very much.

Not all "defender pressure" is bad - you're right that those involved should be wary of comments being made to intentionally divide their opponent, but forgetting they're also players that sometimes just speak their mind is a folly as well. Forms of defender pressure have forced us to be better updaters, and it's defender-originated pressure that pushed at least a half dozen people to file a GHR about Predator rather than remain silent.

Tangled web? Now that Firehelm is out of their little temporary hot water (which as I recall you were equally a part of), I think it's just Invaders. After all, only other one I can think of is KGB, which isn't "raider," and if anything, their repeated attempts to claim Vac is not their military leader then him continuing to gain new tanks and rolls and lead their forces is the most open manipulation I've seen going either way.

Ah, Moderate. I know who that one's pointed at. You're not the first and won't be the last. Rather be a moderate than an extremist Funny story, I see us beating defender more than we're "destroyed" by them. *shrug*

---

I await HYDRA's statements on all this to see what they have to say .... and already look forward to more times I can just say "yeah we'll help" without first asking "who's going?"

[Sygian II]

You all -- all of you who are doing this bickering, not just The Invaders, not just HYDRA -- need to get your acts together. Cutting relations with fellow raiders because of pressure from defenders and whatever Europeia even is these days?

This^

Also no, Ivo did Knot admit to spying on Hydra Command. I would believe that the dual membership going on between raider organizations would be the product of hearing somebody in the chat mention not working with The Invaders anymore. All it takes is someone that is a member of both organizations to run back to the other and tell them what they found. Even if The Invaders were spying on Hydra Command, I am not going to make such an assumption until I find it's true.

I would believe it if I heard that Hydra Command wanted to impress their defender friends OOC by cutting ties with The Invaders, and I'm sure that contributes to part of the situation. It's a quite disappointing situation indeed, as raider unity doesn't seem to be completely sticking around these days. In no way am I criticizing the choice that Hydra Command is making, but I hope I don't see another organization doing the same thing in the future to impress their Warden buddies. I would say that they wished to impress The Black Hawks (who quite frankly but Knot on their blacklist of people they wouldn't work with) by doing this but the amount of disgust I have witnessed from both groups about the other wouldn't suggest saying that.

All in all, good luck to Hydra Command and good luck to The Invaders. It was definitely cool seeing everyone work together in the Singapore operation. 'Grats, by the way.

[Revall]

Allow me to further illustrate my point. Am I to assume that every person on NationStates who flies the hammer and sickle that was used by the Soviets is a proponent of the mass murder of academics, religious people, artists, members of the bourgeois, and dissenters? That would be an absurd assumption. Yet some would have us believe that flying an eagle designed after or derived from this one marks support for the atrocities carried out under Hitler.

Perhaps they had more appreciation for contrast and minimalist design than mass murder and racial prejudice. That would explain further minimizing the design elements of the eagle.

An excellent point which won't be addressed by anybody here because it won't fit into the self serving bullshit being peddled by those with a vested interest in weakening the raider sphere. Its' unfortunate that raiders are allowing this to happen.

@TI How exactly did you discover HYDRA would be cutting ties did you spy on them or did you find out through other channels? Did your leadership talk to HYDRA about this before posting it here?

@HYDRA I'm sure your reasons for cutting ties go beyond a flag so I'll wait to hear those reasons.

This all seems to be an example of some people working very hard to be upset.

In this case they seem to be working quite a bit harder to get upset than they did when Fedele was rocking that totally fash flag

[Klaus Devestatorie]

I'm genuinely disappointed in you all. You know better than to be party to a shitty meme debate as old as Nazi Iconography vs Soviet Iconography. Please admit that you never liked each other anyway and move on.

[Cormactopia II]

Ah, Moderate. I know who that one's pointed at. You're not the first and won't be the last. Rather be a moderate than an extremist

I'm not going to argue with your entire post, even though I strongly disagree with just about all of it -- especially the part about Europeia being allies and partners of raiders -- because I just called for raiders to stop bickering in public. So I'm not going to turn around and start publicly bickering with you.

But I am going to clarify, as I've already clarified to you in private, that when I referred to moderates I was referring to moderates in regions like the South Pacific and Europeia. I thought this was self-evident because I said "defenders and moderates in non-raider regions."