Osiris Fraternal Order: Abdication of the Pharaoh

[Cormactopia II]

I don't have particularly strong opinions on recruitment by sinkers, but some feeders felt strongly enough about it to suggest a treaty to ban it completely, or responding with counter-recruitment, or several other ideas that were initially floated. Certainly, it was enough of an issue to have a Conference about it.

Again, Osiris' intention was to recruit only from two Feeders, without any regard for how those particular two Feeders felt about it. Recruiting from all five Feeders was an unfortunate error, and we don't intend to recruit from all five Feeders again without the agreement of TEP, NPO, and TWP. We don't care if TNP or TSP agree to it. We would be happy to participate in a conference if the three Feeders friendly to us would prefer a conference setting, and if TNP and TSP are invited to participate, that's fine by us. But ultimately we're only looking for agreement from the three Feeders I've cited. If that agreement doesn't come, we won't be further recruiting.

As a side note, counter-recruitment is not a very compelling deterrent, to be honest. The Feeders aren't going to have anymore luck with respawned -- or in TRR's case, ejected -- nations than we do. This idea that we could be doing better with getting respawned nations active is confined to the imaginations of some Feeder politicians, and isn't reality. No one has anymore success with respawned nations than we do, which is why most user-created regions write off Sinker recruitment as a waste of time and resources.

[The Dourian Embassy]

As a side note, counter-recruitment is not a very compelling deterrent, to be honest. The Feeders aren't going to have anymore luck with respawned -- or in TRR's case, ejected -- nations than we do. This idea that we could be doing better with getting respawned nations active is confined to the imaginations of some Feeder politicians, and isn't reality. No one has anymore success with respawned nations than we do, which is why most user-created regions write off Sinker recruitment as a waste of time and resources.

Hey now, let's not disabuse anyone of that notion so quickly. It'd be entertaining to watch the dead telegrams land.

[Sandaoguo]

Well, no, what we wanted to do is recruit. We didn't care if we offended TNP or TSP, which is different from actively wanting to offend TNP or TSP. It's a subtle difference, sure, but an important one, in that actively wanting to offend TNP or TSP would imply that we care a lot more about TNP or TSP than we actually do. We consider both regions largely irrelevant despite their superiority complexes. Useful only for recruitment purposes. Etc.

You're anything but subtle, Cormac. You think recruitment bombs would garner a negative reaction, so much so that you want to get special permission from Osiris' "friends" before doing it to them. Osiris' actions against TNP and TSP are utterly insignificant, but your mens rea is clear.

I look forward to proving you wrong, as I frequently do. Stay tuned!

I haven't been proven wrong for the past 4 years, so the return on that bet would probably be amazing.

By the way, would you care to provide a list of TSP's Cabinet officials over the past twelve months? Seems I recall quite a bit of reshuffling. How many times have you served as Minister of Foreign Affairs, again?

Feirmont
Arbiter08
Farengeto
Siberian Districts
Kringalia
Hileville
Scylla
Sam
Sopo
Tsunamy
Drugged Monkeys
Awe
Resentine
Punchwood
Roavin
Imkihca
and myself, of course

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

I suppose, from a certain point of view "useful only for recruitment purposes" is less hostile than "a drama horse" that's "fun to participate in their wars".

[Tim-Opolis]

You think recruitment bombs......

Just jumping in to point out this in no way qualifies as a recruitment bomb. Recruitment bombs are when someone telegrams the entire region, this is just telegramming newly founded nations and is as such just normal recruitment.

[Sandaoguo]

You think recruitment bombs......

Just jumping in to point out this in no way qualifies as a recruitment bomb. Recruitment bombs are when someone telegrams the entire region, this is just telegramming newly founded nations and is as such just normal recruitment.

Who are you to define what is and isn't a recruitment bomb? Osiris blasted out recruitment TGs to TSP and TNP. Sounds like one to me. Let's not pretend like this is some well-established area of inter-regional conflict lol

[Solorni]

"I haven't been proven wrong for the past 4 years, so the return on that bet would probably be amazing."
You're one of the most consistently wrong NSers in the game when it comes to analysis and predictions in the game. If we were allowed to bet on this, we would make a ton of money. Except for the fact that we wouldn't win that much money each time because we'd be betting on the expected outcome. Remember when you said that Osiris would be the next region couped and it was really TSP? On a more serious note, Osiris should be using this for this project:

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

Just jumping in to point out this in no way qualifies as a recruitment bomb. Recruitment bombs are when someone telegrams the entire region, this is just telegramming newly founded nations and is as such just normal recruitment.

Who are you to define what is and isn't a recruitment bomb? Osiris blasted out recruitment TGs to TSP and TNP. Sounds like one to me. Let's not pretend like this is some well-established area of inter-regional conflict lol

Actually, The North Pacific has a fairly consistently applied policy of recruiting from regions which 'recruitment bomb' it by Tim's definition. The North Pacific obviously has no such policy for regions which merely seek to recruit new nations. As far as I know, The North Pacific has not previously encountered regions recruiting newly founded nations specifically from The North Pacific.

"I haven't been proven wrong for the past 4 years, so the return on that bet would probably be amazing."
You're one of the most consistently wrong NSers in the game when it comes to analysis and predictions in the game. If we were allowed to bet on this, we would make a ton of money. Except for the fact that we wouldn't win that much money each time because we'd be betting on the expected outcome. Remember when you said that Osiris would be the next region couped and it was really TSP?

Is off by one really that bad, for online punditry?

[Sandaoguo]

"I haven't been proven wrong for the past 4 years, so the return on that bet would probably be amazing."
You're one of the most consistently wrong NSers in the game when it comes to analysis and predictions in the game.

So place the bet! Will Osiris be vibrant and active a year from now? Can Osiris go a whole year without some kind of disruptive regime change?

Btw thx. At least you're calling Hileville's coup a coup!

Who are you to define what is and isn't a recruitment bomb? Osiris blasted out recruitment TGs to TSP and TNP. Sounds like one to me. Let's not pretend like this is some well-established area of inter-regional conflict lol

Actually, The North Pacific has a fairly consistently applied policy of recruiting from regions which 'recruitment bomb' it by Tim's definition. The North Pacific obviously has no such policy for regions which merely seek to recruit new nations. As far as I know, The North Pacific has not previously encountered regions recruiting newly founded nations specifically from The North Pacific.

I think specifically targeting regions who aren't your "friends" (because you want to make sure your "friends" aren't offended!) counts a recruitment bomb! These are uncharted waters, so I'm defining it that way

[Solorni]

Is off by one really that bad, for online punditry?

In fairness, nearly punditry online or not tends to be really bad and inaccurate. So it's not that bad as far as punditry standards go.

NB: The following was punditry.

[Sedgistan]

We could really do with a thread to keep track of bets/bold predictions people make. It's the kind of thing Codger might track.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I think specifically targeting regions who aren't your "friends" (because you want to make sure your "friends" aren't offended!) counts a recruitment bomb! These are uncharted waters, so I'm defining it that way

I'ma call bullshit on this too. It's, by nature, subtractive, not additive. You start with a wide body (in this case, tag:new, though for the purpose of this thought, others like tag:wa or tag:world would count as well), and subtract regions you consider allied/friendly. For example, if I was to send a tag:wa tg, I'd probably exempt regions that raid with us, such as Europeia, HYDRA, or any one of a dozen others. Does that mean I specifcally intend to offend every other region hit? Preposterous. This case is merely a more selective initial body - tag:new, by nature of foundings, only targets five region (initially at least - with the queue and/or API delay, many nations no longer reside in the Pacifics by the time telegrams are delivered. Are they attempting to offend all those regions too?), so when you subtract three of them, there's only two left.

Cut the bullshit. You and everyone else in Gameplay know what targeted recruitment bombing is, and that this ain't it.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

I think specifically targeting regions who aren't your "friends" (because you want to make sure your "friends" aren't offended!) counts a recruitment bomb! These are uncharted waters, so I'm defining it that way

I'ma call bullshit on this too. It's, by nature, subtractive, not additive. You start with a wide body (in this case, tag:new, though for the purpose of this thought, others like tag:wa or tag:world would count as well), and subtract regions you consider allied/friendly. For example, if I was to send a tag:wa tg, I'd probably exempt regions that raid with us, such as Europeia, HYDRA, or any one of a dozen others. Does that mean I specifcally intend to offend every other region hit? Preposterous. This case is merely a more selective initial body - tag:new, by nature of foundings, only targets five region (initially at least - with the queue and/or API delay, many nations no longer reside in the Pacifics by the time telegrams are delivered. Are they attempting to offend all those regions too?), so when you subtract three of them, there's only two left.

Cut the bullshit. You and everyone else in Gameplay know what targeted recruitment bombing is, and that this ain't it.

That argument is somewhat muddled when the body of regions excluded is greater than the body of regions that remain included, is it not?

[Cormactopia II]

Well, no, what we wanted to do is recruit. We didn't care if we offended TNP or TSP, which is different from actively wanting to offend TNP or TSP. It's a subtle difference, sure, but an important one, in that actively wanting to offend TNP or TSP would imply that we care a lot more about TNP or TSP than we actually do. We consider both regions largely irrelevant despite their superiority complexes. Useful only for recruitment purposes. Etc.

You're anything but subtle, Cormac. You think recruitment bombs would garner a negative reaction, so much so that you want to get special permission from Osiris' "friends" before doing it to them. Osiris' actions against TNP and TSP are utterly insignificant, but your mens rea is clear.

The point is that we want to recruit, and in the case of The North Pacific and the South Pacific, we don't care about the reaction. We would welcome a reaction of "we don't care if you recruit." But if we get a negative reaction, we don't really care about that. We have no relations at all with The North Pacific, by their own choice, and we have -- to paraphrase your words -- de facto relations with the South Pacific because you've never conclusively decided to terminate relations with us due to the constant chaos and upheaval in your political system. We have no reason to care how either region would react to recruitment.

On the other hand, we're on friendly terms with The East Pacific, The Pacific, and the West Pacific. Obviously, we don't want to offend them by recruiting. That doesn't mean we're actively looking to offend TNP or TSP by recruiting, it just means in your cases we don't care, and in the cases of TEP, NPO, and TWP, we do care. You have only the flaws in your regions' foreign policies to blame for having such a terrible relationship with Osiris that we don't care how either region would react to us recruiting from them. Both regions chose, of their own free will, to repeatedly meddle in internal Osiran affairs, to bash Osiris at every opportunity, and to keep their distance from Osiris because we don't abide by their ideological and political preferences. We don't care if TNP or TSP are offended by our recruitment because they've given us no reason to care.

By the way, would you care to provide a list of TSP's Cabinet officials over the past twelve months? Seems I recall quite a bit of reshuffling. How many times have you served as Minister of Foreign Affairs, again?

Feirmont
Arbiter08
Farengeto
Siberian Districts
Kringalia
Hileville
Scylla
Sam
Sopo
Tsunamy
Drugged Monkeys
Awe
Resentine
Punchwood
Roavin
Imkihca
and myself, of course

That's a pretty short list for a Feeder. Seems that probably involved a lot of the same people returning to the same Cabinet positions, or taking on new ones ("reshuffling"). Pot calling the kettle black?

I suppose, from a certain point of view "useful only for recruitment purposes" is less hostile than "a drama horse" that's "fun to participate in their wars".

I'm not sure who you're quoting there, but I don't think I've ever used the phrase "drama horse" in my life, so just to clarify, that isn't a quote from me. I didn't find anything particularly fun about participating in TSP's internal conflicts, or participating in TSP in general.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I'ma call bullshit on this too. It's, by nature, subtractive, not additive. You start with a wide body (in this case, tag:new, though for the purpose of this thought, others like tag:wa or tag:world would count as well), and subtract regions you consider allied/friendly. For example, if I was to send a tag:wa tg, I'd probably exempt regions that raid with us, such as Europeia, HYDRA, or any one of a dozen others. Does that mean I specifcally intend to offend every other region hit? Preposterous. This case is merely a more selective initial body - tag:new, by nature of foundings, only targets five region (initially at least - with the queue and/or API delay, many nations no longer reside in the Pacifics by the time telegrams are delivered. Are they attempting to offend all those regions too?), so when you subtract three of them, there's only two left.

Cut the bullshit. You and everyone else in Gameplay know what targeted recruitment bombing is, and that this ain't it.

That argument is somewhat muddled when the body of regions excluded is greater than the body of regions that remain included, is it not?

As I pointed out, you're assuming that tag:new tgs are only targeting the pacifics, when they're merely the regions in which most nations targeted reside. tag:new is not at all a regional target (like a recruitment bomb would be), it's a national target, just as tag:wa or tag:all are. I can go pull up our new targeting API right now and show you dozens of nations that resided in regions other than the pacifics by the time they got sent a new targeted TG (our API places several other targets ahead of new in our internal queue), and then there's many more that move by the time the NS queue delivers our message. tag:new ultimately hits nations residing in hundreds of regions.

[Roavin]

The point is that we want to recruit, and in the case of The North Pacific and the South Pacific, we don't care about the reaction. We would welcome a reaction of "we don't care if you recruit." But if we get a negative reaction, we don't really care about that. We have no relations at all with The North Pacific, by their own choice, and we have -- to paraphrase your words -- de facto relations with the South Pacific because you've never conclusively decided to terminate relations with us due to the constant chaos and upheaval in your political system. We have no reason to care how either region would react to recruitment.

Emphasis mine. You're the Pharaoh of Osiris, fresh in on a coup that's 3 months old. Pot calling the kettle black?

Feirmont
Arbiter08
Farengeto
Siberian Districts
Kringalia
Hileville
Scylla
Sam
Sopo
Tsunamy
Drugged Monkeys
Awe
Resentine
Punchwood
Roavin
Imkihca
and myself, of course

That's a pretty short list for a Feeder. Seems that probably involved a lot of the same people returning to the same Cabinet positions, or taking on new ones ("reshuffling"). Pot calling the kettle black?

That's 17 individuals, in a time frame containing 25 total individual elected terms. How exactly is that reshuffling?

[Cormactopia II]

The point is that we want to recruit, and in the case of The North Pacific and the South Pacific, we don't care about the reaction. We would welcome a reaction of "we don't care if you recruit." But if we get a negative reaction, we don't really care about that. We have no relations at all with The North Pacific, by their own choice, and we have -- to paraphrase your words -- de facto relations with the South Pacific because you've never conclusively decided to terminate relations with us due to the constant chaos and upheaval in your political system. We have no reason to care how either region would react to recruitment.

Emphasis mine. You're the Pharaoh of Osiris, fresh in on a coup that's 3 months old. Pot calling the kettle black?

What you refer to as a "coup" addressed the chaos and upheaval in our political system. When given the opportunity to do the same thing when Hileville dissolved the Coalition and declared the Transitional Government, the South Pacific refused to do so, opting instead for more chaos and upheaval. When again given the opportunity to address the chaos and upheaval in its political system, this time through a legal constitutional convention, the South Pacific opted to make the chaos and upheaval in its system worse. Your current system is likely to be even more chaotic and even less stable than the previous system, and that is the system you selected.

The difference between Osiris and the South Pacific is that we have finally done something to bring order to Osiris. The South Pacific prefers to embrace even greater chaos and instability rather than trying to bring order to the region. The chaos and instability benefits your manipulative demagogues, like Glen-Rhodes and Belschaft.

[Roavin]

What you refer to as a "coup" addressed the chaos and upheaval in our political system. When given the opportunity to do the same thing when Hileville dissolved the Coalition and declared the Transitional Government, the South Pacific refused to do so, opting instead for more chaos and upheaval. When again given the opportunity to address the chaos and upheaval in its political system, this time through a legal constitutional convention, the South Pacific opted to make the chaos and upheaval in its system worse. Your current system is likely to be even more chaotic and even less stable than the previous system, and that is the system you selected.

The difference between Osiris and the South Pacific is that we have finally done something to bring order to Osiris. The South Pacific prefers to embrace even greater chaos and instability rather than trying to bring order to the region. The chaos and instability benefits your manipulative demagogues, like Glen-Rhodes and Belschaft.

Neither you or I can claim whether the changes to our respective system are more or less stable than what preceded them, because they are still too new that anybody could tell at this point. In TSP we've made some pretty innovative changes that are worth following, and while I admit I haven't followed Osiris' progress, I wish for peace and stability for Osirans just as much as I do for South Pacificans.

Now, of course TSP hasn't explicitly chosen greater chaos, even though you say we did. I suspect this was rhetoric and that I know what you meant - that the two persons you mentioned wrote the laws to bring in the chaos to benefit themselves. Well, you can't just idly dismiss what the South Pacific is doing based on only two of the people that contribute. It's insulting to the variety of other members that have significantly contributed that don't happen to be well-known and well-hated here in GP: Tsunamy, Drugged Monkeys, Griff, Kringle, Farengeto, Awe, Henn, Omega, Resentine, myself, ...

That'd be like me passing judgement on Osiris' current reforms just because you're involved, of whom many wouldn't hesitate to also say a negative thing or two (frequent R/D flipflopper, outrage opportunist, and likewise demagogue). I'm not going to do that, not just because I don't feel like name-calling, but also because I assume there are many dedicated Osiran natives unknown to me working on continually improving Osiris as well. Hey, just like in TSP.

[Kringalia]

By the way, would you care to provide a list of TSP's Cabinet officials over the past twelve months?

Since I'm a total junkie when it comes to the history of the South Pacific, here goes a little something.

[Unibot III]

By the way, would you care to provide a list of TSP's Cabinet officials over the past twelve months?

Since I'm a total junkie when it comes to the history of the South Pacific, here goes a little something.

You should include the old jobs like Minister of Justice.

The constitution really didn't change all that much.

[RiderSyl]

Since I'm a total junkie when it comes to the history of the South Pacific, here goes a little something.

You should include the old jobs like Minister of Justice.

The constitution really didn't change all that much.

See, even Unibot agrees the constitution didn't really change

[Kringalia]

You should include the old jobs like Minister of Justice.

Uni!
We actually did do research on that at MoRA, but I still need to find some time to double check the dates and turn it all into a table. If you want to check the raw data, it was archived here, along with much of our historical research.

[The Dourian Embassy]

Statement from the Osiris Fraternal Order
On Termination of Relations with the South Pacific

---

It has been evident for some time that Osiris and the South Pacific lack the shared values and common interests necessary to provide the foundation for a mutually beneficial diplomatic relationship. Moreover, the persistent dysfunction in the South Pacific's constitutional system has made clear that the South Pacific is not a reliable diplomatic partner. For these reasons Osiris has terminated relations with the South Pacific.

We wish residents of the South Pacific who seek a functional government and cooperative community all the best in pursuit of those goals. We hope one day that circumstances in the South Pacific will change, and that Osiris and the South Pacific may once again find common ground to serve as the foundation for a more reliable and mutually beneficial diplomatic relationship.

~ From the Office of Osiran Affairs

[Kringalia]

I'll be completely honest and say I had no idea TSP and Osiris still had diplomatic relations.

[Altmoras]

I'll be completely honest and say I had no idea TSP and Osiris still had diplomatic relations.

Yeah, I'm surprised embassies weren't closed after the coup.