Illegal Script Usage "Predator": Punishments

[Wolf]

And all I'm saying is that DEN is no longer DEN because The Black Riders hijacked the region.

And all I'm saying is that my region still isn't DEN and the false logic of "sounds similar, therefore close enough" is an unjust and unfair punishment for someone who didn't even commit a crime. This goes the same for the old long retired DENers who lost The DEN HQ (originally founded in 2004), The DEN Base (originally founded in 2005), and The DEN Central Command (originally founded in 2009).

None of these regions have anything to do with Predator other than Guilt By Association Fallacy.


Are we going to now start blaming The Black Hawks for the illegal actions The Black Riders committed? After all, both groups have three words as part of the name, were once lead by Halc at one point or another in their history, and start with "The Black".

That's close enough for a punishment, right?

[We Couldnt Agree On A Name]

So what happens now that all these raiders are in the rejected realms?

[Zacherie]

What den is and is not at this point does not matter. It has been deleted, and it's key members have been slapped with a WA ban.
Like it or not, the region is gone and it's name is tarnished, not that it had a good one as a raider to begin with.

The mods have handed down their punishments, and I believe they are fair. They do not outright kill raiding, and we can still act as trigger and lead on raids. It's time to move forward from this.

- Aurum Rider, now Zacherie

[Lockdownn]

I hope they realize that since your nation is a wolf that it resides in a den. I don't know what other home someone would think a wild wolf would live in but apparently I'm not one to judge.

Allow me to reference this quote once more....

[Wolf]

I hope they realize that since your nation is a wolf that it resides in a den. I don't know what other home someone would think a wild wolf would live in but apparently I'm not one to judge.

Allow me to reference this quote once more....

Well, to be clear, the final judgement in my case has not been returned, but I think anyone who confuses my region, and the numbers historical DEN region, with the "DEN" that TBR fled to and used out of convince and name recognition are the type of people who can't distinguish between the World Wrestling Federation and the World Wildlife Fund.

[Eluvatar]

They do not outright kill raiding, and we can still act as trigger and lead on raids.

Just as a point of clarification: WA banned players may not take point on invasions or occupations.

(I realize lead may be being used differently from the usual meaning, in the above post).

[Siniarus]

So what happens now that all these raiders are in the rejected realms?

From what I've seen, a lot of things. What you have to remember is that DEN, and raiderdom in general, isn't a homogenous mass but a group of people with hugely varying outlooks, goals, and ideas of what's fun and not.

Some people, especially those who already were tied to other raiding regions, will be participating more heavily in them. It's pretty common to hold ranks in multiple regions, and although I myself am only in TBH (since I am one of the newer members), there are several DEN officers who already have enlisted ranks in TBH, and at least one has expressed the possibility of becoming affiliated more fully with the Hawks.

A lot of people, from DEN and TBH alike, are leaving. Some are becoming more involved with the political side of gameplay rather than the military, and others just don't know, or if they do they aren't saying and we respect that.

Ultimately, I don't think that raiding is over, or if it is, this isn't the death blow. Keep in mind that I'm speaking from an inexperienced and junior standpoint, but from what I've seen there are a lot of us, at least in TBH, who are not letting this stop us, myself included. New regions will rise and fall, and the balance of power will shift dramatically, since DEN was undoubtedly highly influential, but after everything settles I expect (and hope) that R/D gameplay will resume as it has, just minus the illegal parts that damaged it so much in the first place.

[Vrolondia]

And all I'm saying is that DEN is no longer DEN because The Black Riders hijacked the region.

And all I'm saying is that my region still isn't DEN and the false logic of "sounds similar, therefore close enough" is an unjust and unfair punishment for someone who didn't even commit a crime. This goes the same for the old long retired DENers who lost The DEN HQ (originally founded in 2004), The DEN Base (originally founded in 2005), and The DEN Central Command (originally founded in 2009).

None of these regions have anything to do with Predator other than Guilt By Association Fallacy.


Are we going to now start blaming The Black Hawks for the illegal actions The Black Riders committed? After all, both groups have three words as part of the name, were once lead by Halc at one point or another in their history, and start with "The Black".

That's close enough for a punishment, right?

Close enough for me, shouldn't have used all caps.

On a more serious note though:

They used The DEN Central Command as a refuge when TBR fell, used it to organize, launch, and eventually refound The DEN HQ.
They used the same insignias, ranks, officers, regions, and took occupation credit for DEN missions, effectively reenergizing DEN from DEN.

After the refound the DEN regions became satellites, allies, or cross raiding partners. The DEN was the title in every region in order to distinguish them, and it was the name of your region, typed in the same way to distinguish it, which may or may not have shared the above as well.

tldr; it had the same name and association with an illegal org, not a far stretch to assume that it would get hit in the crossfire.

[Wolf]

They used The DEN Central Command as a refuge when TBR fell, used it to organize, launch, and eventually refound The DEN HQ.

No, they didn't.

Gest had possession of "DEN" before TBR died and directed all his followers to that region specifically. He could have picked any region, but he used DEN purely because it was a famous raider group that had mostly died and simply because he already controlled the region via a refounding.

At no point did DEN CC, DEN HQ, or least of all, The DEN, play any role. You're lying through your teeth to try and justify this lunacy.

[Vrolondia]

They used The DEN Central Command as a refuge when TBR fell, used it to organize, launch, and eventually refound The DEN HQ.

No, they didn't.

Gest had possession of "DEN" before TBR died and directed all his followers to that region specifically. He could have picked any region, but he used DEN purely because it was a well known raider group that had mostly died.

At no point did DEN CC, DEN HQ, or least of all, The DEN, play any role. You're lying through your teeth to try and justify this lunacy.

May be wrong then, but I was one of the occupiers of TBR and watched DEN Central swell up from single to triple digits due to TBR Refugees.

Must be a coincidence.

* Edit looking at populations, DEN HQ wasn't the refound; my mistake, thought it was.
Also, triple was a stretch. Double digits. I'm bad apparently.

[Lockdownn]

Close enough for me, shouldn't have used all caps.

Is the all caps DEN trademarked rule breaking or something? Is there something I missed?

The DEN was the title in every region in order to distinguish them, and it was the name of your region, typed in the same way to distinguish it, which may or may not have shared the above as well.

Again...wolves live in dens what part of this specific fact are people missing???

tldr; it had the same name and association with an illegal org, not a far stretch to assume that it would get hit in the crossfire.

I'd like to assume that people would know the facts before outright destroying anything and everything that has DEN (not trade marked but apparently is??) in the title. One would think a bit of research ought to be put into it before ruining someone's region. But again, that's apparently none of my business.

[Vrolondia]

Close enough for me, shouldn't have used all caps.

Is the all caps DEN trademarked rule breaking or something? Is there something I missed?

The DEN was the title in every region in order to distinguish them, and it was the name of your region, typed in the same way to distinguish it, which may or may not have shared the above as well.

Again...wolves live in dens what part of this specific fact are people missing???

tldr; it had the same name and association with an illegal org, not a far stretch to assume that it would get hit in the crossfire.

I'd like to assume that people would know the facts before outright destroying anything and everything that has DEN (not trade marked but apparently is??) in the title. One would think a bit of research ought to be put into it before ruining someone's region. But again, that's apparently none of my business.

if The Black Hawks got deleted in this scale, they would delete the regions that have Black Hawk flags, motto, and titles, because those are justifiably black hawk regions. Same with DEN. Same with Any region.

[Lockdownn]

Is the all caps DEN trademarked rule breaking or something? Is there something I missed?


Again...wolves live in dens what part of this specific fact are people missing???


I'd like to assume that people would know the facts before outright destroying anything and everything that has DEN (not trade marked but apparently is??) in the title. One would think a bit of research ought to be put into it before ruining someone's region. But again, that's apparently none of my business.

if The Black Hawks got deleted in this scale, they would delete the regions that have Black Hawk flags, motto, and titles, because those are justifiably black hawk regions. Same with DEN. Same with Any region.

Not one that should be apparently different. Wolves live in dens...

[The Anacreon Empire]

is this region going to be deleted as well?

http://www.nationstates.net/region=the_den_army


It doesn't look like much, and I don't know the history. Just asking out of curiosity.

[Wolf]

May be wrong then, but I was one of the occupiers of TBR and watched DEN Central swell up from single to triple digits due to TBR Refugees.

Must be a coincidence.

So you admit that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. As far as exact numbers go, here, let me pull those for you.

Oh, will you look at that. During the entire down fall and occupation of TBR, DEN Central Command's population stayed fixed...at three nations.

[Septalon]

Well, shit.

[Vrolondia]

May be wrong then, but I was one of the occupiers of TBR and watched DEN Central swell up from single to triple digits due to TBR Refugees.

Must be a coincidence.

So you admit that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. As far as exact numbers go, here, let me pull those for you.

Oh, will you look at that. During the entire down fall and occupation of TBR, DEN Central Command's population stayed fixed...at three nations.

Well god damn, which region am I thinking of then?

And yeah, I'd assume that region would be banned too.

[Wolf]

Well god damn, which region am I thinking of then?

Well, as the person making the claim, you hold the burden of proof.

So you tell me.

[Vrolondia]

Well god damn, which region am I thinking of then?

Well, as the person making the claim, you hold the burden of proof.

So you tell me.

Gaaaaah this is going to bother me until I can find it now. I know it wasn't DEN and I thought it was CC, apparently it's not.

I don't want to start pulling evidence out of thin air, so I admit defeat. I was wrong, apparently.

[Minoa]

FURTHER EDIT: Funen if I recall was founded by Charlotte Ryberg/Minoa?

Hola,

I can confirm that as Charlotte Ryberg, I was until June 2015 the original founder of the region that had nothing to do with raiding (and in fact, opposed it).

In its second incarnation before becoming a DEN puppet (as far as I know), Charlotte Ryberg was a ceremonial Queen of what was then a Viking-themed raider region for the reasons above, but never took part in any raids due to my beliefs, and it saw little other activity other than the map thing and polls.

CR left Funen in late-November 2015 to look after Hinduism following a tag raid, because I earlier decided to make Minoa the founder of the region of the same name.

In the aftermath of the Predator script controversy, NationStates invited me to resume ownership of Funen today, which I did under a new nation called Joana for managerial reasons (CR is active but archived, and Minoa is now my main nation and the founder of the region of the same name).

I hope this clears things up.

-- Minoa (writing while the Hôtel Plaza Athénée teddy massages my head).

[Zaolat]

They used The DEN Central Command as a refuge when TBR fell, used it to organize, launch, and eventually refound The DEN HQ.

No, they didn't.

Gest had possession of "DEN" before TBR died and directed all his followers to that region specifically. He could have picked any region, but he used DEN purely because it was a famous raider group that had mostly died and simply because he already controlled the region via a refounding.

At no point did DEN CC, DEN HQ, or least of all, The DEN, play any role. You're lying through your teeth to try and justify this lunacy.

Besides there was at one point Two separate DENs.

[General Knot]

The creation or development of DEN or Cimmeria themed successor regions is equally prohibited until such time as we determine otherwise.

What I'm perhaps the most disheartened about after this whole affair is the state we're leaving the name of DEN in. A lot of people will view us as stomping in to take the name of the most (in)famous invader organization during a time of difficulty and then screwing it up big time. It makes my heart ache that so many people, from those who allowed us to carry on the namesake to those that worked hard to develop an identity, will now be sorely disappointed. A shameful day indeed.

In the future, I hope that a qualified group of people will be given the chance to repair this.

[General Karl Von Hoffmann]

Well shouldn't have they thought about that before violating the rules and cheating?

Raiding is one thing, cheating is another.

[Belschaft]

Indeed. TBR only has TBR to blame for what they've done cto DEN's legacy.

[Ransium]

Will the WA delegates who's streaks were snapped by region crashing have their streaks restored?