Illegal Script Usage "Predator": Punishments

[Belgium fighters]

You guys have completely the wrong end of the stick when it comes to my views on invading. I can understand why, since you don't have behind the scenes access, but that doesn't change the fact you've got this wrong.

I was a defender for a little over 3 years. I've been a mod for 5 1/2. During that time, I've been the biggest defender (poor choice of words, but whatever) of invading on the team. Don't believe me? Ask Mall - I don't think he'll mind me quoting him from shortly after he joined the team:

<Mall> After my first year or so of raiding I came to suspect that you and CG were the only people keeping raiding from getting wiped out by the moderation staff. After reading the invading/griefing thread in the M/A forums that thought has been pretty much confirmed. I gotta say thank you on behalf of raiders and gameplayers everywhere for that, if raiders knew just how balanced you actually would be once modded they would never have given you shit.
<Mall> Little did they know you'd be the only friend they had on the staff heh

Drop him a TG and check, if you doubt me.

It's no secret that the invading game has been a cause of strife within the team. There are many mods who dislike invading for the disruption it does to players from communities they represent, seeing it as little more than "legalised trolling", and others who retain a dislike from the days of enforcing the griefing rules. You'll find many of them would happily see invading curtailed, whether through unfavourable technical changes, restrictive rules, and even stricter moderation of how you can celebrate your victories. I've spent years, and a lot of energy, pushing back against that. I've clashed with plenty of mods on this, and it's not made me popular. That's not to say the mod team is entirely made up of raider-haters, but there's a sizeable number who would be pleased to see invading gone for good.

If I come across as harsh or exasperated at the moment, it's because the Predator situation has made my job that much harder. Every time I say again that invaders aren't bad people - they're decent, rules-abiding players, with no more "bad eggs" than any other community - someone will point to the year and a half of solid cheating we've seen from TBR/DEN. When I argue it's fair for invaders to celebrate their victories the way you'd expect players in a competitive PvP environment to do so - someone is going to point to the "defenders/natives aren't trying hard enough" gloating that took place during that year and a half of Predator-assisted cheating. If I claim that invading adds dynamism to the game - well look at those hundreds of regions spammed through illegal script usage, and the opposite side completely demoralised as they couldn't compete through legal means.

This simply cannot happen again. If it does, I'll wager that Moderation would take a long, hard look at the invading game, and judge it not worth keeping. That's what is at stake here, and that's why I've supported some of the strictest punishments possible. It's what is needed for the invading game to have a chance of recovering any sort of integrity and surviving into the future.

The best post I've read here thusfar...

As I said, we as a raider community should condemn cheating. I, in my days as Field Marshall of DEN, have never ever endorsed cheating or faulplay. We abided by the rules. I have spent many hours back in my time talking to General Tommy R Franks en Powell and never ever have they encouraged me to cheat. Franks would however always go to the edge to try and broaden the border which resulted in quite a few deletions. I knew that at the time but saw no harm in talking to him. He was a leader and an inspiration to our generation. But again, we never ever had the intention to cheat.

I would say to the mod team that they should SEVERLY punish all those players who joined in on the cheating but please, leave the regions and organisations alone. They had no hand in them, nor can you write a clear history of 'DEN' saying we have a culture of cheating. I beg of you, do not erradicate DEN from NS history, for it is a part of it...

[Guy]

It's no secret that the invading game has been a cause of strife within the team. There are many mods who dislike invading for the disruption it does to players from communities they represent, seeing it as little more than "legalised trolling", and others who retain a dislike from the days of enforcing the griefing rules. You'll find many of them would happily see invading curtailed, whether through unfavourable technical changes, restrictive rules, and even stricter moderation of how you can celebrate your victories. I've spent years, and a lot of energy, pushing back against that. I've clashed with plenty of mods on this, and it's not made me popular. That's not to say the mod team is entirely made up of raider-haters, but there's a sizeable number who would be pleased to see invading gone for good.

I appreciate that, Sedge. I figured some folks would have taken on a more 'for the betterment of activity and gameplay' sort of thing, and that's awesome, but heck, if it's that big of a strife and that big of a division in the community, I don't know, get more mods that appreciate that facet of gameplay to vouch for it. It's not about personal opinion - it's about what keeps people coming to this game. And the R/D game is one of those facets.

The R/D game has been a huge part of NS for quite some time now and is one of the few facets that can affect anyone in the game, even if they only answer issues or only roleplay.

Even if this does happen again (I hope I am wrong), it needs to be fostered and allowed to grow. NS is one of those unique games where it is what it is and you can play it however you like, provided there's nothing illegal going on in accordance to the rules. I think it'd be a shame if we saw raiding lost and, consequently, defending lost as well.

The R/D game is an overall disruptive part of the game that ought to play no part in it, at least in its present form. It generates extremely little activity for players (just a whole lot of in-game nation movements) while putting others off the game completely. R/D reform is possible, but would require a fundamental rethink of the game that Admin probably will not want to go forward with.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

..... Is said, as the Gameplay forum writhes with activity surrounding the Osiris coup, and multiple military attempts are being made at reclaiming it, driving commentary, statements, and actions on both NationStates and regional forums for at least a dozen regions.

[Grenartia]

1. Arguably, it isn't. Again, the only introduction anyone gets to R/D is after they've already made their nation and get bombarded by 10 billion TGs every hour for 24 hours.

Except you're totally wrong. It's mentioned plain as day in the FAQ, in fact, it's brought up even before the topics of Issues & Politics, Regions, and the World Assembly are broached.

Is willful ignorance really an excuse?

Hardly a prominent display of R/D. How many new people even read the FAQ before making a nation?

[Evil Wolf]

Hardly a prominent display of R/D. How many new people even read the FAQ before making a nation?

Well, if they want to know anything at all about the game before starting, then I'm willing to say quite a few. Otherwise they are entering this game totally blind and with little to no expectations.

Again, I'm not seeing how you can reasonably say that R/D is just sprung upon new players any more than every other element of the game. Yeah, it may not have a tab in the left bar but, then again, neither does Role Play.

In any case, this is pretty off topic. I just hate it whenever Grenartia and others like them roll into a topic and start with their "R/D isn't really part of the game, is legalized trolling, and shouldn't be allowed" nonsense.

[Of crazed]

You guys have completely the wrong end of the stick when it comes to my views on invading. I can understand why, since you don't have behind the scenes access, but that doesn't change the fact you've got this wrong.

I was a defender for a little over 3 years. I've been a mod for 5 1/2. During that time, I've been the biggest defender (poor choice of words, but whatever) of invading on the team. Don't believe me? Ask Mall - I don't think he'll mind me quoting him from shortly after he joined the team:

Drop him a TG and check, if you doubt me.

It's no secret that the invading game has been a cause of strife within the team. There are many mods who dislike invading for the disruption it does to players from communities they represent, seeing it as little more than "legalised trolling", and others who retain a dislike from the days of enforcing the griefing rules. You'll find many of them would happily see invading curtailed, whether through unfavourable technical changes, restrictive rules, and even stricter moderation of how you can celebrate your victories. I've spent years, and a lot of energy, pushing back against that. I've clashed with plenty of mods on this, and it's not made me popular. That's not to say the mod team is entirely made up of raider-haters, but there's a sizeable number who would be pleased to see invading gone for good.

If I come across as harsh or exasperated at the moment, it's because the Predator situation has made my job that much harder. Every time I say again that invaders aren't bad people - they're decent, rules-abiding players, with no more "bad eggs" than any other community - someone will point to the year and a half of solid cheating we've seen from TBR/DEN. When I argue it's fair for invaders to celebrate their victories the way you'd expect players in a competitive PvP environment to do so - someone is going to point to the "defenders/natives aren't trying hard enough" gloating that took place during that year and a half of Predator-assisted cheating. If I claim that invading adds dynamism to the game - well look at those hundreds of regions spammed through illegal script usage, and the opposite side completely demoralised as they couldn't compete through legal means.

This simply cannot happen again. If it does, I'll wager that Moderation would take a long, hard look at the invading game, and judge it not worth keeping. That's what is at stake here, and that's why I've supported some of the strictest punishments possible. It's what is needed for the invading game to have a chance of recovering any sort of integrity and surviving into the future.

The best post I've read here thusfar...

As I said, we as a raider community should condemn cheating. I, in my days as Field Marshall of DEN, have never ever endorsed cheating or faulplay. We abided by the rules. I have spent many hours back in my time talking to General Tommy R Franks en Powell and never ever have they encouraged me to cheat. Franks would however always go to the edge to try and broaden the border which resulted in quite a few deletions. I knew that at the time but saw no harm in talking to him. He was a leader and an inspiration to our generation. But again, we never ever had the intention to cheat.

I would say to the mod team that they should SEVERLY punish all those players who joined in on the cheating but please, leave the regions and organisations alone. They had no hand in them, nor can you write a clear history of 'DEN' saying we have a culture of cheating. I beg of you, do not erradicate DEN from NS history, for it is a part of it...

Sorry BF, you are not part of DEN history according to the moderation staff. We are actually the best known as habitual cheaters in the game because by moderator logic only events they cherry pick count as DEN history. Thank you for your service, but your time as FM does not exist in the DEN history according to moderation. Don't feel too bad, my time is ignored as well.

[Of Leben]

This whole situation is kind of odd. Why have scripts been banned when they were used for so long and seemingly approved by moderators?

[Guy]

This whole situation is kind of odd. Why have scripts been banned when they were used for so long and seemingly approved by moderators?

Scripts are not banned. There were script rules always in place, which were easily accessible. The script in question broke them.

[Of Leben]

This whole situation is kind of odd. Why have scripts been banned when they were used for so long and seemingly approved by moderators?

Scripts are not banned. There were script rules always in place, which were easily accessible. The script in question broke them.

What rule did it break?

[Evil Wolf]

What rule did it break?

Read and learn.

[Grenartia]

Hardly a prominent display of R/D. How many new people even read the FAQ before making a nation?

Well, if they want to know anything at all about the game before starting, then I'm willing to say quite a few. Otherwise they are entering this game totally blind and with little to no expectations.

1. Again, I'm not seeing how you can reasonably say that R/D is just sprung upon new players any more than every other element of the game. Yeah, it may not have a tab in the left bar but, then again, neither does Role Play.

2. In any case, this is pretty off topic. 3. I just hate it whenever Grenartia and others like them roll into a topic and start with their "R/D isn't really part of the game, is legalized trolling, and shouldn't be allowed" nonsense.

1. Because you can ignore literally every other element of the game, unlike R/D. For fuck's sakes, you don't even have to answer issues if you don't want to.

2. Hardly. In any discussion of R/D, the validity of R/D is ALWAYS a legitimate topic of discussion.

3. Truth hurts.

[Crazy girl]

2. Hardly. In any discussion of R/D, the validity of R/D is ALWAYS a legitimate topic of discussion.

Not here. Back on topic.

[Guy]

I don't think we've been 'on topic' for about 12 pages, really. To clamp down on this particular topic is meh.

[The Will of Kane]

I don't think we've been 'on topic' for about 12 pages, really. To clamp down on this particular topic is meh.

It's quite welcome actually, there's plenty of qualified threads you guys can toss around your dislike for R/D. I've been wondering what you folks have been doing here for about 12 pages now.

[Emrys Mercer]

I'm glad to see those abusing the script punished and to see the culture of rule-breaking take a hit by this action.

[Liddell Hart]

I'm glad to see those abusing the script punished and to see the culture of rule-breaking take a hit by this action.

I don't think that's the issue people are contesting in regards to the moderation team's decision. The problem is that in addition to punishing the nations involved in using the script, many innocent players are being punished by having their region and community (many players from present and previous iterations) nuked as well.

[The Will of Kane]

A necessary escalation of severity in response to the previous penalties not acting as a deterrent.
Sadly.

[95 block]

I honestly feel like quitting the game over how this event was handled. But I'm still here to stick it to the man, as I feel like I have personally done no wrong.

[Zacherie]

I don't think that's the issue people are contesting in regards to the moderation team's decision. The problem is that in addition to punishing the nations involved in using the script, many innocent players are being punished by having their region and community (many players from present and previous iterations) nuked as well.

I think it's pointless to argue the point now. Moderation has a track record of not backing down after being called out by the community, which in some cases is good. I am well aware of the fact that no matter what the decision was, it'd piss off a lot of people.

That said, the track record that is not good, is the lack of transparency they have in some cases. They may not be obligated to, but some form of explanation on why they deleted X region would go a long way.
Even in the list of people receiving punishments the level of it seems arbitrary without some form of explanation. 94 Block received the 3 month WA ban and the DEAT despite being literally incapable of running Predator. Why were several people that used the tool just as much as others on the list (Ridersyl in particular) spared from any mod action at all despite being just as cooperative as others on the list?

I find it even more uncomfortable that the drop of the moderation hammer hit people that didn't even use the tool after Halcones was DoS, or that literally could not use the tool.
This is like Eluvatar somehow getting DoS, waiting a year, then banning everyone who's ever used NS++ regardless of whether they uninstalled it or not, then banning a few people who posted in the API thread for good measure.

Obviously the argument is 'you are not privy to the information Moderation has' but in that case what was the point of letting there be a discussion here at all?
I've got no intention of letting this get swept under the rug, or letting it get buried under the mindless ranting of people that hate my game, and letting these 19 'fair punishments' fade out of mind until I've seen at least a bare minimum of an explanation.

[The old wildlife pen pal]

Even in the list of people receiving punishments the level of it seems arbitrary without some form of explanation.

You either know most of these people yourself, or know people who do. Is it so hard to (roughly) find out who said/did what - in private and to the mods? Even with just publicly posted information here, you can put a rough picture together.

I find it even more uncomfortable that the drop of the moderation hammer hit people that didn't even use the tool after Halcones was DoS, or that literally could not use the tool.

As I understand, the tool has always been illegal, even before any DoSes, so that has no bearing. As for the second part, I imagine you're referring to 94 Block - who it appears was punished for colluding/working with a DoS player rather than using predator.

This is like Eluvatar somehow getting DoS, waiting a year, then banning everyone who's ever used NS++ regardless of whether they uninstalled it or not, then banning a few people who posted in the API thread for good measure.

This is not even remotely comparable. NS++ does not break any rules, so no one could be punished for using it.

And, as the mods seemed to indicate some time ago, the author of a script being DoS does not automatically make that script illegal to use. Although aspects around that - talking to the user about updates, the script sending info back to the user, helping them code it etc. - was also deemed a no no.

[Guy]

The outrage is real. The cheating is realer.

[Ultimate Sacrifice]

I liken it to a speed limit. Some probably didn't know the speed limit and just kept pace with the others. Some probably knew and sped anyway. Neither make the action legal, nor should there be a lessening of the punishment. But continuing to vilify both class of users equally isn't exactly fair, either.

At the end of the day, a solid act of contrition on the part of those who were dragged along for the ride would go a long way, in my opinion. Just because you didn't know it was wrong at the time doesn't make it right.

It's the only way that Gameplay can pick itself up by the bootstraps and move forward.

[Drasnia]

-snip-
This is like Eluvatar somehow getting DoS, waiting a year, then banning everyone who's ever used NS++ regardless of whether they uninstalled it or not, then banning a few people who posted in the API thread for good measure.

A better analogy than Elu would be Afforess, who did get DOS, and then banning anybody who ever used NS++

[Lyra and Bon Bon]

I'm glad to see those abusing the script punished and to see the culture of rule-breaking take a hit by this action.

I don't think that's the issue people are contesting in regards to the moderation team's decision. The problem is that in addition to punishing the nations involved in using the script, many innocent players are being punished by having their region and community (many players from present and previous iterations) nuked as well.

Well I think it has been said before, but regardless if was actively cheating or not, or was unaware of what they were doing by using the program was cheating, It would be very unfair to allow the collective group to retain the gains made through the cheating that was going on the last year and a half, thus the group 'punishment' for the actions of some.

That, and as others have also mentioned, this is the second time this has happened and the second time the same group was involved. So obviously the punishment from last time was not much of a deterrent, so logically moderation team actions where escalated this go around in hopes that there is not going to be a third time.

On a personal aside, the raiders already benefit from both having a captive playerbase forced to participate in their gameplay, regardless if they wish to or not; and also having a distinct advantage as a raider against defenders. I am not sure why when the system is already stacked in their favor, that cheating for a little extra edge has such an appeal? The raider reputation is not so great to start with for a lot of players, repeated events like these hardly help their cause much I would think.

[Ultimate Sacrifice]

-snip-
This is like Eluvatar somehow getting DoS, waiting a year, then banning everyone who's ever used NS++ regardless of whether they uninstalled it or not, then banning a few people who posted in the API thread for good measure.

A better analogy than Elu would be Afforess, who did get DOS, and then banning anybody who ever used NS++

The analogy didn't fall short because of Elu, but because NS++ was never illegal. Predator always was.