We Are Not Predators, and You Are Not Prey

[GreatNazis]

For what it's worth, NE has not had access to Predator and consequently never used it or any similar tool in our operations. Our recent operations in The Free Land for All, WorldFascistAlliance, Persian Empire and Alliance Against Nazis were all carried out using manual triggering.

Personally, I dislike the use of such tools as I feel they take away an element of the fun in R/D gameplay - those nailbiting seconds after a jump and before the update, both offensively and defensively. I've always enjoyed the intense nature of a piling race in the seconds up to an update, for instance. I wouldn't be in particular support of a 'legal tool'.

[ChingisOtchigin]

As far as I know all large scale ops are triggered manually. (Or at least their vast majority)

[RiderSyl]

In a time of despair for both sides of R/D, you choose making a tired partisan potshot over showing class.
Good to know where you stand, Delegate of Lazarus.

Loft's opinions are Loft's opinions not the opinion of Lazarus as a whole, don't make it regional.

And speaking of where players stand, you were TBR Syl. Did you have access to Predator?

Yes, I had access. Never used it. It was giving me API connection errors every time I tried to use it, so I just kept using the sheets.
The fact I never used Predator personally doesn't change the fact I participated in raids where Predator was used, though.
It wasn't intentional, but I took part in the cheating by supplying those using Predator with a willing updater.

I'm sorry.

[The Eastern Antarctic State]

So you're telling me that my first region The United Study Group, is practically the way it is because of a bunch of cheaters? Thanks guys, much class on display.

[Trick Shot]

So you're telling me that my first region The United Study Group, is practically the way it is because of a bunch of cheaters? Thanks guys, much class on display.

Most large scale ops are triggered manually and legally iirc

[Ayvari]

I'm angry that I'm going to be lumped in with cheating, despite never using Predator. I'm angry that some of Predator's most avid users don't even consider me a real raider because of how many times I've changed alignments, but because I'm a raider now, I'll be lumped in with cheating just like any other raider.

I thought about this for a day or so. I considered not saying anything, and then realized, especially after Cormac's post, that I do have a lot to say on the subject.

I have never used Predator. I have hated Predator since I learned who made it. I didn't like it before I found out that Halcones was responsible for it, and after I did, I outright hated it. You can ask people in TBH, and a few of them can tell you that I was lightly arguing about its use. I didn't say anything because I had hoped that it was possible to talk people out of using it over time. I was told that Predator was the way of the future by one particular person, and we would fall behind if we didn't use it. To that person, I was tempted to ask "How does the future feel?" I won't, because they are among the to-be-punished and I think that punishment will suffice more than any "I told you so," no matter how well deserved.

I'm happy that someone finally reported it and got the evidence to get it investigated, because it means it will finally be gone, and Halcones loses his last shred of active relevancy in our community.

As a defender, I had heard rumors of some great tool that TBR had for triggering. By the time Predator was developed, however, I was already virtually in my WAD seat in TEP. I never really got to feel the full effects of Predator on the R/D field from the defender side. When I left defending, I thought they were doing well enough that my WA wouldn't even be missed. Chasing was always a tricky art in the first place, so I didn't think too much on why it was so much harder now than it was when I started R/D.

I'm like Cormac. I'm incredibly annoyed that I switched only to have the organization I left the military I grew up in and spent my first year and half in R/D dedicating myself to in order to join it with Sev branded a home to cheating. Shortly after switching, I learned what Predator was. It wasn't until a while later that I learned Halcones was actively maintaining it. I didn't like it at all, because I resent what Halcones has done to hurt raiderdom more than I care to appreciate what he has done. Plus, he's DoS, and he deserved it.

I was all for Predator being reported to the Moderators, not only because I didn't believe it could be entirely legal now that Halcones was actively editing the code, but because I wanted it to be gone. I'm sure that won't make me popular, but I don't care. I wanted Predator gone from the minute I learned Halcones was behind it. I was sick of DoS players influencing the raider sphere. I still am.

And now, I'm proven to be right, because a DoS player has officially screwed raiderdom over for the second time in not even a year. Another round of DoS and whatever else the Moderators and Admins decide on for users of Predator. I'm angry that, despite my opposition to Predator, my home, and by extension I, will get the label.

I didn't think I had switched to lose a reputation I worked hard for to a few people who couldn't let go of Halcones' shiny bauble.

Sorry, Kleo, Fest, I respect and like you both, but that's how I feel about TBH and Predator.

I'm sorry BT, Jack, Rav, Guy, Dyr, Fratt, and Elu, and everyone else on the defender side. I'm sorry to all the natives who were affected by this. I believe in a competitive game, not a one-sided cheat. Having been in any way party to this makes me sick. I'm sorry that I didn't get more active in opposing Predator. I should have set aside my belief that I was openly biased (I was) and I didn't like Halcones professionally or personally (I really don't) and made more of an effort to see if it was legal at all. My personal dislike of everything to do with Predator blinded me to the idea that things could be wrong with it aside from Halcones' direct influence, and I wish it hadn't, now.

[Stalker Queen]

So you're telling me that my first region The United Study Group, is practically the way it is because of a bunch of cheaters? Thanks guys, much class on display.

From what I can tell, the refound was sniped in July 2014 before Predator was developed.

[RiderSyl]

So you're telling me that my first region The United Study Group, is practically the way it is because of a bunch of cheaters? Thanks guys, much class on display.

From what I can tell, the refound was sniped in July 2014 before Predator was developed.

That's cutting it pretty close on the date. However, The United Study Group was a stolen refound, which the cheat program wasn't used for.

[Raionitu]

Just wanted to put my personal piece in on this matter. I am speaking for myself, no one else, individual or group.
First off, to the few people who are trying to degrade raiders on this thread, I really don't get what you are trying to do. I hear natives complaining about how raiders always destroy and never apologize and such, but when some raiders finally apologize, you just scorn them. This makes fewer people want to open up, I almost decided to not post this because it seems like the only people who would take the time to read it would be people who cannot look past personal bias.

Now, the real reason I am posting. I have only been playing NationStates since sometime last summer, and have only really been active in raiding this year. I did not know much about Halcones or why he is DOS, in fact, I did not even get told he was DOS until the issue with Predator came up. I have never triggered, and do not know how to trigger.

This does not excuse the fact that I at some point most likely went on a tag run where Predator was used for triggering, although I never asked. I did not, and honestly still do not, understand enough about the triggering tools to know if a tool is legal or not. I was once accused of being a "blind follower of raider leaders, never questioning what I was told". This has taught me that, to some extent, it was true, I just accepted that what we were doing was legal, and from now on I plan to be more vigilant about what I do, and to try to hold other raiders accountable as best as I can.

I just wanted to apologize to the natives and defenders I may have faced in a tag run where Predator was used. Despite what many seem to think, I find the most fun in R/D in the same place as GreatNazis, in those moments between the jump and the update, and in the challenge of fighting the defenders. My favorite moment in my time as a raider was when I was acting as point in an occupation, in those moments before an update, waiting for the next liberation attempt to start. My favorite part is the struggle, and to know that the struggle was been removed or decreased illegally makes me almost sad. In the end, I view this as a game, and a game where you can never loose gets stale.

Basically, I'm sorry for anything I may have done to support this, it was not fair to natives, defenders, or the other raiders like myself, who find fun in the challenge.

[Almonaster Nuevo]

Well said.

If more operated in that spirit, I think the game would be the better for it.

Also speaking purely as an individual, but classifiable as a native in this context: apology accepted and appreciated.

[Ikania]

I don't think it's fair to blame all the people that used Predator. Most raiders didn't have a clue it was illegal but its creator, who is now, of course, gone. There doesn't seem to have been much of a dispute about it until a few days ago.

And as much as you may disrespect raiders, most of them stopped using Predator as soon as it was clearly illegal. There was one who defiantly refused to stop, who is now, of course, gone. I think it's good that the people who used it have apologized, and I don't think screaming more vitriol about how angry you are will accomplish much.

This thread belongs to others.

I don't think thread ownership is a thing, unless that's changed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

This thread belongs to others.

I don't think thread ownership is a thing, unless that's changed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Pretty sure it was more of a "this isn't welcome" statement than a moderation one. No one can tell you to not post here, but CoE asked that this remain a place with a specific purpose, of reconciliation, not of confrontation.

Full quote for reference:

Oh noes, I've upset a native! Woe is me!

Loftegen, would you mind refraining from expressing your feelings in this thread? There is a time and a place for us to share our thoughts and feelings as Delegates of Feeders and Sinkers, but that is not here. This thread belongs to others.

My apologies to General COE, for this.

[Ikania]

I don't think thread ownership is a thing, unless that's changed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Pretty sure it was more of a "this isn't welcome" statement than a moderation one. No one can tell you to not post here, but CoE asked that this remain a place with a specific purpose, of reconciliation, not of confrontation.

Well if it's reconciliation then hugs are always free

[Zaolat]

I don't think it's fair to blame all the people that used Predator. Most raiders didn't have a clue it was illegal but its creator, who is now, of course, gone. There doesn't seem to have been much of a dispute about it until a few days ago.

And as much as you may disrespect raiders, most of them stopped using Predator as soon as it was clearly illegal. There was one who defiantly refused to stop, who is now, of course, gone. I think it's good that the people who used it have apologized, and I don't think screaming more vitriol about how angry you are will accomplish much.

This thread belongs to others.

I don't think thread ownership is a thing, unless that's changed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think Raven meant that in spirit, not literally.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

I did, yes.

[Mad-eye Jack]

I realize that I'm not a raider but I feel like this thread has gone on long enough that raiders and raider-aligned folks have had time to say their piece as CoE originally intended. But I do want to respond, to give my thoughts on your thoughts and maybe steer things to the next stage.

There are good number of you who have expressed feelings of regret, feelings of anger generated by betrayal, and some of you even apologized. These sentiments are natural reactions to where things stand now that the Predator-- for lack of a better term-- "Scandal" has been brought to light. And personally I'm appreciative of those who are expressing genuine regret and are dishing out sincere apologies, but in the back of my mind I'm worried that nothing is really going to change after this.

Obviously we're all waiting to see what punishments moderation will hand out, but I get the feeling, and you can call me biased, that whatever punishments they hand out will probably not be sufficient for the scope of the damage done. Countless regions were harassed and destroyed, organizations reaped the benefits of the activity and exposure enabled by Predator, and people were put at risk of punishment for offenses they weren't entirely aware of. I think it'd be a mistake by raiderdom, the imperialist sphere, and independitism (not sure what they go by), to see what punishments moderation gives out and close the book on this ugly chapter of Gameplay history.

For the sake of argument let's say that moderation makes all avid Predator users DoS (even that might be a stretch), but what about those high ranking officials in DEN and other organizations that didn't directly use Predator, but encouraged its use by other people? I doubt moderation is going to erase them from the game, which is just my speculation, but should they be allowed to carry on in the raiding community, the Gameplay community, as if nothing ever happened? Even if a random DEN officer/commander never used Predator, are we going to act like they didn't know the true nature of Predator? Are we going to act like they didn't know that a DoS player created Predator and was a point of access to Predator. Whether or not they knew the coding in the script was illegal, they knew it was controlled by a DoS player. It seems like many of the raiders in this thread from all different organizations knew this information.

So what is going to happen to these people who maybe didn't use Predator personally, but were high ranking officers who encouraged or tacitly endorsed its use and benefited from its use? If organizations like DEN continue on, will they continue to see the support of their current allies? If DEN folds, will their non DoS'd officers be allowed to parachute into other organizations and land in cushy high ranking jobs? If they try to create spin off regions like TBR went to DEN will the slate be wiped clean once again?

I think these are fair questions that many in the Gameplay community and native communities at large who might peruse here have popping into their heads. I know how I would answer these questions and maybe, because I'm a defender, it's too easy to share that I think raiders should answer no. But I see raiders in here that seem to care about how they are perceived and care that victory is achieved fairly. They want to create a better culture within the raiding community.

There are a good number of you, who have said that you could have done more to stamp out Predator sooner. It makes me wonder what held people back from doing the more they wish they did? Was it fear of rocking the boat? Fear of retribution? Fear of losing numbers on the battlefield? Whether intended or not, the lack of action gives off the perception that when it came to Predator, for a long time, the benefits of silence were greater than speaking out and that essentially, Raider Unity trumped Site Legality. And here you are in this thread today feeling betrayed or wishing you did more, sooner.

I hope that this thread has shown those of you who felt more could have been done that you were not alone with your unease with regards to Predator and perhaps knowing that now it can inspire you to take action to right some wrongs and help prevent future incidents from ever happening. I know I have no sway in the raiding community, but I would hope these are the conversations that raiders are having behind closed doors with each other right now and together will enact appropriate changes to restore trust.

[Lady Isolde]

Whether or not they knew the coding in the script was illegal, they knew it was controlled by a DoS player. It seems like many of the raiders in this thread from all different organizations knew this information.

I've been reading through much of the information/evidence presented about the scandal the past few days. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't many people, not just raiders, know that Predator was controlled by a DoS player? Public conversations on this very forum often included snippets about this "mysterious tool" that General Halcones controlled, if I recall correctly.

[Severisen]

It's a gray area at best. Yes, many people knew this was created and tightly controlled by Halcones. He was not DOS when it was created. Inquiries were filed as to the legality of using a tool created by a player who later became DOS. It was stated that using the tool wasn't in and of itself illegal by virtue of its creator's standing on the site. So, there were some measures taken to fall in line with site rules. As I've said elsewhere, his post-DOS maintenance was enough of a gray area that some users stopped altogether. I did raise some concerns, even though I was a defender at the time, but when your "proof" amounts to little more than a gut feeling, it's hard to blame people for not taking you seriously. We can't change what happened, but we can put policies in place to prevent situations like this from occurring in the future. There are conversations happening, and there is hope, from my point of view, that we will move in the right direction and gain the trust of NS again, no matter how long that takes.

[Raionitu]

Whether or not they knew the coding in the script was illegal, they knew it was controlled by a DoS player. It seems like many of the raiders in this thread from all different organizations knew this information.

I've been reading through much of the information/evidence presented about the scandal the past few days. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't many people, not just raiders, know that Predator was controlled by a DoS player? Public conversations on this very forum often included snippets about this "mysterious tool" that General Halcones controlled, if I recall correctly.

Yes. I believe there was even at least one defender who was able to look over Predator code, and did not find a fault (see viewtopic.php?f=12&t=362288&p=26944459#p26944459 , there were later discussion but I cannot find the post at the moment, I believe they are somewhere in Benevolent Thomas's thread "my thoughts")

That also shows all the people who said raiders "should have done more" that it was not just raiders. At least one defender has stated they had access to Predator, and they did not report it either. Trying to point blame at the raiders is, quite frankly, pointless. If you know someone who specifically broke rules, send a GHR, don't sit here and repeatedly talk about how horrible raiders were for not knowing Predator was bad.

EDIT: Some people have misinterpreted this as me pushing blame onto defenders. I was answering a question, and giving my opinion, which is that ALL parties could have done more. Read my later posts on this thread for more about what I think if you want.

[Cormactopia II]

I'll preface this by saying that I speak only for myself, and not for other raiders, nor in any official capacity for any region or group. I have had discussions with other raiders in regard to these issues, and that does inform my opinion in this post, but I'm speaking only for myself nonetheless.

Obviously we're all waiting to see what punishments moderation will hand out, but I get the feeling, and you can call me biased, that whatever punishments they hand out will probably not be sufficient for the scope of the damage done. Countless regions were harassed and destroyed, organizations reaped the benefits of the activity and exposure enabled by Predator, and people were put at risk of punishment for offenses they weren't entirely aware of. I think it'd be a mistake by raiderdom, the imperialist sphere, and independitism (not sure what they go by), to see what punishments moderation gives out and close the book on this ugly chapter of Gameplay history.

I do have to take a little bit of issue with this. I don't want defenders to refrain from expressing their feelings about this crisis, but I think there is language in many of these posts that goes overboard and some of that language is in this paragraph.

"Countless regions were harassed and destroyed"? No, they weren't. You're taking the rules violations associated with the Predator tool -- which were script rules violations, and violations related to giving a DoS player access to site data -- and trying to tie raiding itself to these rules violations. Regions were not "harassed"; they were tagged, and the tag raiding was completely legal, it was only the use of Predator to do it that was a rules violation. Regions were not "destroyed"; they were re-founded, and the re-founding was completely legal, and there isn't any evidence yet that Predator was ever used in any re-found attempt given that it was used primarily, if not exclusively, for tag raiding. But even if Predator was used in a re-founding attempt, it is still the use of Predator that is the rules violation, not the re-founding.

Raiding is not harassment. Raiding is not a violation of site rules. The use of Predator does not make raiding any worse than it was before Predator. Please, for the sake of an honest and constructive conversation, don't seize upon this scandal as an opportunity to pretend that raiding itself is on trial. It isn't. This is not a time for political point scoring by either side, and the insistence of some defenders to try to put raiding itself on trial is just going to end up politicizing this to a point that there will be no more room for honest conversation, until it becomes "us vs. them" and raiders wrap themselves in the security blanket of raider unity and resist any pressure to reform. Which brings me to the points you've made with which I largely agree...

For the sake of argument let's say that moderation makes all avid Predator users DoS (even that might be a stretch), but what about those high ranking officials in DEN and other organizations that didn't directly use Predator, but encouraged its use by other people? I doubt moderation is going to erase them from the game, which is just my speculation, but should they be allowed to carry on in the raiding community, the Gameplay community, as if nothing ever happened? Even if a random DEN officer/commander never used Predator, are we going to act like they didn't know the true nature of Predator? Are we going to act like they didn't know that a DoS player created Predator and was a point of access to Predator. Whether or not they knew the coding in the script was illegal, they knew it was controlled by a DoS player. It seems like many of the raiders in this thread from all different organizations knew this information.

So what is going to happen to these people who maybe didn't use Predator personally, but were high ranking officers who encouraged or tacitly endorsed its use and benefited from its use? If organizations like DEN continue on, will they continue to see the support of their current allies? If DEN folds, will their non DoS'd officers be allowed to parachute into other organizations and land in cushy high ranking jobs? If they try to create spin off regions like TBR went to DEN will the slate be wiped clean once again?

I think these are fair questions that many in the Gameplay community and native communities at large who might peruse here have popping into their heads. I know how I would answer these questions and maybe, because I'm a defender, it's too easy to share that I think raiders should answer no. But I see raiders in here that seem to care about how they are perceived and care that victory is achieved fairly. They want to create a better culture within the raiding community.

This question -- what are we going to do with individual Predator users, and perhaps more importantly, the leaders who authorized and encouraged its use -- is still very much unsettled, from what I can tell, among raiders. It will probably remain unsettled until after we see what Moderation is going to do, but that doesn't mean it isn't being discussed. It's just that we do need to see what Moderation does first, because there may be players we will prepare to hold accountable who will literally cease to be able to use the site anymore. There's no point in jumping the gun before Moderation acts.

What I believe we should do, frankly, is as follows:

1. DEN should be isolated from the rest of the raider community pending the resignation and replacement of DEN High Command, in its entirety, and demonstration over the course of time to the satisfaction of the raider community that DEN is prepared to really embrace fair and responsible gameplay.

2. If DEN folds as a result of the resignation of its High Command, or as a result of failing to do this, any regions that arise from DEN should be thoroughly scrutinized and put on strict probation with the rest of the raider community. Any region(s) founded by current members of DEN High Command shouldn't be welcomed into the raider community at all, and should High Command members try to join an existing raider region, they should begin at a non-officer rank.

3. Marselesk (Kleo) should resign as Field Marshal of The Black Hawks and from the Council of the Hawks, and both he and Festavo should be demoted -- Marselesk a rank below the lowest officer rank, and Festavo a rank lower than his current rank. I will not go as far as to say The Black Hawks should be isolated if they don't do this, because unlike DEN they are not the epicenter of Predator use, but they should do this and I am confident they will do the right thing for their own reputation and to make amends for the wrongdoing associated with Predator use.

4. Osiris should ensure that nobody who used Predator, and no one involved in leadership that encouraged the use of Predator, is elected Pharaoh in the upcoming election or appointed to leadership of the Sekhmet Legion following the upcoming election.

5. I'm not even sure the extent to which smaller raider regions used Predator, but that should be determined and they should be held to similar standards.

So that is what I believe the raider community should do, on the record. I've privately encouraged some of these steps already. I'm publicly going on the record so the gameplay community can see that there are raiders who believe this shouldn't just be swept under the rug -- and I'm not the only one, either -- and so that anyone who thinks they can just sweep this under the rug will see that they will meet resistance from within the raider community. We already largely let The Black Riders get away with illegal script use once without serious repercussions beyond those that Moderation imposed, and then allowed them to migrate to DEN, Cimmeria, etc., and gave them a clean slate they didn't deserve. That lack of consequences has directly lead to this situation. We shouldn't, and in my view, can't, repeat those mistakes. There must be consequences within the raider community this time, beyond whatever consequences Moderation imposes.

What I would ask, though, is that the gameplay community be patient. As I said, we are already discussing these issues, but for the most part we're waiting to take action within our community until after Moderation takes action in regard to rules violations. Even aside from waiting for Moderation, this is a serious crisis and it isn't something that should be rushed. The goal shouldn't just be punitive, it should be corrective. We not only want to make sure there are consequences for the people who deserve to face consequences, but we also want to make sure that this doesn't happen again. Coming up with a strategy for that takes time and deliberation. Most, if not all, of us were taken as much by surprise as anyone else in the gameplay community by the eruption of this crisis.

There are a good number of you, who have said that you could have done more to stamp out Predator sooner. It makes me wonder what held people back from doing the more they wish they did? Was it fear of rocking the boat? Fear of retribution? Fear of losing numbers on the battlefield? Whether intended or not, the lack of action gives off the perception that when it came to Predator, for a long time, the benefits of silence were greater than speaking out and that essentially, Raider Unity trumped Site Legality. And here you are in this thread today feeling betrayed or wishing you did more, sooner.

I hope that this thread has shown those of you who felt more could have been done that you were not alone with your unease with regards to Predator and perhaps knowing that now it can inspire you to take action to right some wrongs and help prevent future incidents from ever happening. I know I have no sway in the raiding community, but I would hope these are the conversations that raiders are having behind closed doors with each other right now and together will enact appropriate changes to restore trust.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, and for some others I've talked to, it was a failure to understand how seriously illegal Predator was. Yes, we did know that Halcones was maintaining it, which should have raised red flags for us -- and for many of us, it did, but we didn't know for sure that it was illegal just for him to maintain a script, and we didn't at all know that Predator was violating script rules. Now, obviously, we should have been asking questions and insisting on discontinuation of Predator use until we had answers to those questions. That was a significant failure, and all of us who knew about Predator and knew that Halcones was maintaining it were extremely negligent in that regard. There is no justifying that negligence.

The sense I've gotten is that for many people, and certainly for me, the scale of these rules violations was unthinkable. It just wasn't something we could imagine. It wasn't so much that we trusted Halcones, because many of us don't now that he is DoS, and quite a few of us didn't before that. But a lot of us did trust Gest. A lot of us did trust Kknight. A lot of us did trust Knot (Ivo). Even those of us who aren't personally close with them respected them and believed they were professional and took site rules seriously. A lot of us did trust that the people who almost certainly knew Predator was illegal, or at least certainly should have known, would not authorize or encourage use of a tool that so flagrantly violates site rules. That trust was obviously misplaced, but I think it was what lead many of us not to raise the questions and red flags we should have raised. I can say with near certainty that blind trust and deference to authority will never again lead to a situation like this, because for better or for worse, absolute trust and deference of raider leadership largely no longer exists. Those who have lost trust will have to work damn hard to earn it back, and even those less tainted by this scandal and still trusted will not be blindly trusted in the future -- because we have all been burned by too much trust in and deference toward our leaders.

I apologize for the length of this post, but I hope this is the kind of response you were looking for and I hope it offers some reassurances that this is being taken seriously and thoroughly discussed in the raider community.

[Raionitu]

We already largely let The Black Riders get away with illegal script use once without serious repercussions beyond those that Moderation imposed, and then allowed them to migrate to DEN, Cimmeria, etc., and gave them a clean slate they didn't deserve. That lack of consequences has directly lead to this situation.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, and for some others I've talked to, it was a failure to understand how seriously illegal Predator was.

I disagreed with several parts of your post, but these were the main two.
Predator was in use before the recruitment issue as far as I know(I could be wrong, someone please fact check that), so saying that the recruitment issue lead to the Predator issue is wrong, if anything, it was getting away with using Predator that encouraged TBR to use another illegal script.

You claim a sort of immunity from punishment because you did not understand "how seriously illegal Predator was", then want to punish people who used it, even though many of them did not realize it was illegal. I'm sorry, but I see this as a double standard and hypocrisy, and I don't believe people like Kleo and Festavo should be demoted when they did not understand what Predator was doing.

[Cormactopia II]

I disagreed with several parts of your post, but these were the main two.
Predator was in use before the recruitment issue as far as I know(I could be wrong, someone please fact check that), so saying that the recruitment issue lead to the Predator issue is wrong, if anything, it was getting away with using Predator that encouraged TBR to use another illegal script.

It isn't that the illegal recruitment script lead to use of Predator, but letting TBR get away with that without any real repercussions beyond those imposed by Moderation did, I think, make DEN, Cimmeria, et al., feel that the only risk they were running by using another illegal script was intervention by Moderation. We need to correct the perception that raiders can get away with extreme rules violations and get a clean slate in the raider community.

You claim a sort of immunity from punishment because you did not understand "how seriously illegal Predator was", then want to punish people who used it, even though many of them did not realize it was illegal. I'm sorry, but I see this as a double standard and hypocrisy, and I don't believe people like Kleo and Festavo should be demoted when they did not understand what Predator was doing.

The difference is that they opted to use the script without checking its legality, and the other difference, in Kleo's case especially, is that they are our leaders. They are the ones who should be setting an example and ensuring that everything is on the up and up. They failed in their leadership roles, and all of us will endure consequences for that now. They should have to work their way back into leadership roles after so significantly failing. I understand they didn't know what Predator was doing, but as both raider leaders and Predator users, they more than anyone else should have been the ones finding out what it was doing.

I will add that your posts (especially this one), in which you try to evade any responsibility for the raider community and even try to point the finger at defenders, aren't helpful and are just making raiders look worse. You should perhaps leave this to COE or someone else from the Council of the Hawks, because your posts are not representative of the views of your leadership based on what I've been hearing, and you're making The Black Hawks look unprofessional, to say the least, by flying that flag while you evade and point fingers. That flag is better than this -- I think perhaps you'd look better in blue and gold.

[Mad-eye Jack]

I've been reading through much of the information/evidence presented about the scandal the past few days. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't many people, not just raiders, know that Predator was controlled by a DoS player? Public conversations on this very forum often included snippets about this "mysterious tool" that General Halcones controlled, if I recall correctly.

Yes. I believe there was even at least one defender who was able to look over Predator code, and did not find a fault (see viewtopic.php?f=12&t=362288&p=26944459#p26944459 , there were later discussion but I cannot find the post at the moment, I believe they are somewhere in Benevolent Thomas's thread "my thoughts")

That also shows all the people who said raiders "should have done more" that it was not just raiders. At least one defender has stated they had access to Predator, and they did not report it either. Trying to point blame at the raiders is, quite frankly, pointless. If you know someone who specifically broke rules, send a GHR, don't sit here and repeatedly talk about how horrible raiders were for not knowing Predator was bad.

I don't want to get sidetracked here but the post you linked to does not say what you think it did. The poster in question said that the Predator tool was not useful for defender purposes not that it was a legal tool. I'm also willing to bet that the poster in question has been in contact with moderation for some time now with regards to Predator.

As for your post Cormac, I'm sorry if my post gave off the impression that I was making a case that raiding is illegal or should be illegal. Tag raiding is not illegal, but tag-raiding exploded in scope due to Predator. Now is it possible to achieve much of what Predator did with a legal scripts and thus do similar amounts of tag raiding, sure probably. I'm not much of a coder but I could believe it. That's not what happened though. Predator seems to be the impetus for that seismic shift in focus and as such more regions were affected and were victims of the completely legal by site rules-- but one they found annoying and detrimental to their game experience-- action of tag raiding.

I think your post is thoughtful and provides enlightening insight to what is going on in raider circles right now with respect to the Predator issue. I'm glad to hear that people like you and others with some sway are having these tough conversations about how to proceed from here and agree with many of the steps you would like to see taken. I agree that the goal isn't purely a punitive response, but setting up a framework in which situations like this one don't occur in the future. I take heart in the fact that there are now raiders and raider-aligned organizations coming out against this and evaluating which elements of the culture they want to improve upon, and hope that when the dust settles the R/D game can return to a state in which people have faith that corners aren't being cut and we can go back to being respected foes on the battle field.

[Raionitu]

I have not been trying to evade or point fingers.
I had simply been pointing out that while so many people have been pointing blame at raiders, it is not the sole fault of raiders who did not check, as others also had means of checking the legality of the tool. My link to a quote was showing that fact, and my post never claimed any sort of innocence of raiders. I also stated there was further discussion after that, but that I was unable to find the post.

I stand by my original statement, as Predator was in use before the recruitment script, so the recruitment script could not have caused the use of it, although it may have contributed to the spread of it among those who knew it was illegal, if that's what you are trying to say.

I have already posted in this thread that I am sorry about anything I did to support Predator, and that I am speaking for myself, not the Black Hawks.
I do not appreciate your final comment Cormac, as in it you are essentially calling me a liar or cheater, and saying that everyone involved in DEN is a liar and or cheater. With your comment you are acting little better than the people who are overreacting and saying that this makes all raiders bad. I find it hard to take advice from people who will turn to comments and insults like that, while claiming to have good solutions. It's a little thing called respect.

[Cormactopia II]

I do not appreciate your final comment Cormac, as in it you are essentially calling me a liar or cheater, and saying that everyone involved in DEN is a liar and or cheater. With your comment you are acting little better than the people who are overreacting and saying that this makes all raiders bad. I find it hard to take advice from people who will turn to comments and insults like that, while claiming to have good solutions. It's a little thing called respect.

I'm neither calling you a liar nor a cheater, and I apologize if that seemed to be what I was saying. I'm saying that the responsibility for Predator lies with raiders, and we shouldn't be saying defenders should have been checking to see if Predator was legal -- that was on us, it was our triggering tool. Trying to include anyone else in responsibility for this is way off base and is unprofessional. That's all I'm saying.