My thoughts

[Pierconium]

Ever heard of Puppetmaster? If not, do a bit of research. Defenders used illegal tactics in the past and once they were declared illegal [...]

I'm not familiar with any ruling that declared the Puppetmaster Attack illegal after the TNP liberation (which, as has already been pointed out by a prior poster, was declared legal by Max Barry personally.) Since I made sure to follow the Technical and Moderation fora meticulously back then, and my personal involvement in the Puppetmaster Attack, I'm convinced I'd remember if the concept had been declared illegal afterwards. I do know that, as was noted when it was declared legal back in 2004, the game coding was eventually altered to make it conceptually impossible.

As one of the people with access to what actually occurred behind the scenes, I can say that when it was attempted a second time it was after discussions of its legality had begun and several prominent players at the time went out of their way to make certain it wasn't detected beforehand.

I do not remember a second attempt. I do remember you kicking out an huge number of nations from a feeder region when nothing whatsoever was actually going on.

I'm not equating the two, but [...]

Yes, yes, you are... That's how you brought it up... That's also why that sentence continued with a 'but'.

I've always made every attempt at playing honestly, and when in doubt I asked. Without an explicit nod I always stayed well away from any gray area. Had I not received a response to my request, I would not have executed Puppet Master.

To hopefully bring this back to Predator: I would hope players learn that the same meticulous approach applies to script usage. Make every effort that your scripts are legal. When in doubt, ask for clarification. Only use a script when you're absolutely certain it abides by the rules. Not doing so risks the situation we are in now, which is horrible for absolutely everyone.

Can one even tell which tag-raid records stand, and which are now to be scratched for cheating? Does the raider community know / agree on what still counts as an achievement to them and what doesn't?

Ballotonia

You are misremembering then. Puppetmaster II: the Wrath of Ivan I believe it was labelled by Unistrut. The plans were copied over from a spy within the ADN and on the night of the launch I ejected them as they arrived and gained WA status in TNP. It was after this that a ruling was made.

While I did not state that Free4All was pushing the boundaries some others most definitely were after the fact.

[Drop Your Pants]

You are misremembering then. Puppetmaster II: the Wrath of Ivan I believe it was labelled by Unistrut. The plans were copied over from a spy within the ADN and on the night of the launch I ejected them as they arrived and gained WA status in TNP. It was after this that a ruling was made.

While I did not state that Free4All was pushing the boundaries some others most definitely were after the fact.

You're arguing over a decade old incident and not he issue at hand. If you have nothing relevant to say beyond reminding people you're an old player then please, sod off.

[Pierconium]

You are misremembering then. Puppetmaster II: the Wrath of Ivan I believe it was labelled by Unistrut. The plans were copied over from a spy within the ADN and on the night of the launch I ejected them as they arrived and gained WA status in TNP. It was after this that a ruling was made.

While I did not state that Free4All was pushing the boundaries some others most definitely were after the fact.

You're arguing over a decade old incident and not he issue at hand. If you have nothing relevant to say beyond reminding people you're an old player then please, sod off.

Actually, sheep, that is not what occurred.

I stated that I do not believe it appropriate to label all raiders as cheaters, as has been done several times. I pointed out a possible historic incident of a similar (albeit non-equivalent) scenario in which participants were not wholly aware of the possible ethical questions and people decided to come in and not focus on my point but discuss the example I used instead.

So no, you are wrong. Do you have anything to contribute besides talking about whether or not my example is relevant without commenting on the actual point being made? If not, feel free to 'sod off' anytime.

[ChingisOtchigin]

Can one even tell which tag-raid records stand, and which are now to be scratched for cheating? Does the raider community know / agree on what still counts as an achievement to them and what doesn't?

Quite simple to answer. There was never really a "tag-raiding" record, to begin with. Obviously people who triggered tag raids manually, never had a chance against those who used Predator. Same goes for ELITE users. That's why we prefer to split things up into "manual triggered record", "tool triggered record". Now that Pred has been ruled illegal, our achievements with that tool will obviously become a subcategory of their own, as it is unlikely anyone will ever make anything quite like it. It's wrong to point to a group of people who all "cheated" as you all like to cry loudly, and say "the best of them isn't the best of them, because he's a cheater, just like them all" (Note: by "them all" I don't mean all raiders, merely all pred users). It's also wrong to say, "your record is better than anything legal, but there was once an illegal tool that did better, so its not actually a record". What will be done instead, is as described above, a line will be drawn, to specialize achievements in the future.

[Ambroscus Koth]

it is unlikely anyone will ever make anything quite like it.

I wouldn't be so sure

[ChingisOtchigin]

Ooooh, sounds interesting

As for not being so sure, 112 is the number to beat.

And why is there a random pic above my post.

[Aurum Rider]

Ooooh, sounds interesting

As for not being so sure, 112 is the number to beat.

And why is there a random pic above my post.

I barely survived doing a 50some hit raid. I don't know how anyone could possibly survive doing 112

[Eluvatar]

And why is there a random pic above my post.

There is no pic above your post.

[G-Tech Corporation]

And why is there a random pic above my post.

There is no pic above your post.

There never was any picture.

[Giovenith]

There is no pic above your post.

There never was any picture.

[Aurum Rider]

And why is there a random pic above my post.

There is no pic above your post.

You can delete the post from the site, but you can't delete the screencap of it from my hard drive

[ChingisOtchigin]

Don't jinx it. We don't need the mods evolving to their final form just yet.

[Vandoosa]

I've been trying to avoid this topic but a voice in my head is pressuring me to come clean and apologies..

I am sowwy for my involvement in this epic disaster! Both the use of predator a few times and the apparent past two years of cheating. I've only used predator 3 times to lead raids but I have been point man/switcher for thousands of raids where trigger was using predator since joining The Black Riders in 2014.

Also sorry if this seems to short of an apology I am not a very wordy person and tend to just say things bluntly and simple.

There I have now cleared my continence and the voice in my head named Atrulia can put a sock in it! Public apologies are not an east thing for tsunderes.. "It's not like I sorta feel bad about cheating for two years or anything.. BAKA!"

With that out of the way I saw someone mention in this thread about tag records and which ones are legit. I just realized most of my achievements as a raider including holding 80 delegate positions in a single update are now all rendered moot due to this scandal. My "badge of honor" now just seems like a reminder to everyone that I was involved in this cheating business. It is no longer a condemnation badge that I earned..

If I am not DoS or puppet swept when the conclusion to this happens I can't decide if I should try to earn a new legit condemnation or retire from Gameplay all together.

I will now go back to hiding in my bunker from the angry mods of defenders and natives. Waiting for the apocalypse that will no doubt reduce the world population by a few thousand nations..

[YoriZ]

Appology accepted

[Gin Rummy]

If I am not DoS or puppet swept when the conclusion to this happens I can't decide if I should try to earn a new legit condemnation or retire from Gameplay all together.

I will now go back to hiding in my bunker from the angry mods of defenders and natives. Waiting for the apocalypse that will no doubt reduce the world population by a few thousand nations..

I take it this is a little bit of an exaggeration? Because even when you're not involved, that's still a scary thought.

[Bubblekirby]

If I am not DoS or puppet swept when the conclusion to this happens I can't decide if I should try to earn a new legit condemnation or retire from Gameplay all together.

I will now go back to hiding in my bunker from the angry mods of defenders and natives. Waiting for the apocalypse that will no doubt reduce the world population by a few thousand nations..

I take it this is a little bit of an exaggeration? Because even when you're not involved, that's still a scary thought.

Honestly, I doubt the mods will go that far. Now, if there is another incident they'll probably go zero-tolerance, but for now so many people were involved it seems excessive to DOS them all... especially considering, though they made horrendously poor judgement in trusting a tool made by a DOS'd member, most didn't know the tool was illegal.

[Crushing Our Enemies]

The broad speculation that I've heard from raiders is that some predator users will have their main nations deleted, and others may be puppet swept. Some who didn't cooperate with the investigation via GHR might get DOS'd. This seems like a realistic estimate to me. Given that there were 18ish users with access to predator at the time it was revealed to be illegal, and many others have had access over its lifetime, whether the deleted nations hit the thousands would depend on how many people got puppetswept, but it's certainly in the realm of possibility, considering how many puppets many predator users have.

[Canton Empire]

I take it this is a little bit of an exaggeration? Because even when you're not involved, that's still a scary thought.

Honestly, I doubt the mods will go that far. Now, if there is another incident they'll probably go zero-tolerance, but for now so many people were involved it seems excessive to DOS them all... especially considering, though they made horrendously poor judgement in trusting a tool made by a DOS'd member, most didn't know the tool was illegal.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

[Aurum Rider]

Honestly, I doubt the mods will go that far. Now, if there is another incident they'll probably go zero-tolerance, but for now so many people were involved it seems excessive to DOS them all... especially considering, though they made horrendously poor judgement in trusting a tool made by a DOS'd member, most didn't know the tool was illegal.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

Ignorance of the law and being deceived by someone into breaking it are two completely different matters, please refrain from mistaking the two.

[Canton Empire]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

Ignorance of the law and being deceived by someone into breaking it are two completely different matters, please refrain from mistaking the two.

Is that really an excuse????? To be honest, i see no difference.

[Ayvari]

Honestly, I doubt the mods will go that far. Now, if there is another incident they'll probably go zero-tolerance, but for now so many people were involved it seems excessive to DOS them all... especially considering, though they made horrendously poor judgement in trusting a tool made by a DOS'd member, most didn't know the tool was illegal.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

Yes, it is an excuse. One that few people are attempting to make on their behalf. That statement is always factually inaccurate because even if you say it is no excuse, you can't enforce that it is or isn't. You can't dictate the actuality of excuses, because it's an excuse by definition no matter what you say.

It is not, however, a Moderation-accepted excuse, which is what matters here. Your opinion on the subject is yours and can be dictated by you. It cannot, however, dictate anyone else.

[Canton Empire]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

Yes, it is an excuse. One that few people are attempting to make on their behalf. That statement is always factually inaccurate because even if you say it is no excuse, you can't enforce that it is or isn't. You can't dictate the actuality of excuses, because it's an excuse by definition no matter what you say.

It is not, however, a Moderation-accepted excuse, which is what matters here. Your opinion on the subject is yours and can be dictated by you. It cannot, however, dictate anyone else.

So what? Its a bad excuse even if you consider it an excuse. Most raiders are old and smart enough to figure out that was predator was doing is wrong

[Gest]

Honestly, I doubt the mods will go that far. Now, if there is another incident they'll probably go zero-tolerance, but for now so many people were involved it seems excessive to DOS them all... especially considering, though they made horrendously poor judgement in trusting a tool made by a DOS'd member, most didn't know the tool was illegal.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

In real life that axiom isn't exactly true. Ignorance of a law, i.e I don't know that strangling people is a crime, no defense. However mistake of fact is a defense, i.e I strangled a person believing they were about to attack me.

No, the distinction is not applicable NS where they can rule based on whatever they want and yes some RL crimes (child porn for example) don't even have a mistake of facts defense. That axiom has just always bugged me.

[Ayvari]

Yes, it is an excuse. One that few people are attempting to make on their behalf. That statement is always factually inaccurate because even if you say it is no excuse, you can't enforce that it is or isn't. You can't dictate the actuality of excuses, because it's an excuse by definition no matter what you say.

It is not, however, a Moderation-accepted excuse, which is what matters here. Your opinion on the subject is yours and can be dictated by you. It cannot, however, dictate anyone else.

So what? Its a bad excuse even if you consider it an excuse. Most raiders are old and smart enough to figure out that was predator was doing is wrong

See, bad excuse is the right way to phrase it. Good work!

Also, you silly goose. It has nothing to do with age or intelligence. It has to do with trust. Halcones was the mentor to generations of raiders. He created several invader organizations. They trusted him to do the right thing for raiderdom.

He lied to them and screwed them all over with this. Cora, assuming he was telling the truth about knowing, lied and screwed them all over with this. They trusted the wrong person, and they know that now. Saying "You should have known better" is a stupid thing to say. Trust makes blind men (or women) of us all, Canton. Trust in someone they all respected as a great raider is what caused all this, not ignorance of the law.

You clearly know very little about the results of trust gone astray, Canton. I suppose you've never made a mistake before because you believed the wrong person. If that's the case, may we all strive to reach your level of omniscience.

[Aurum Rider]

So what? Its a bad excuse even if you consider it an excuse. Most raiders are old and smart enough to figure out that was predator was doing is wrong

You bring up a good point. If predator wasn't a black box that gave out update times, you would be correct. However nobody knew anything about the requests predator was making. You are now on the same page as everyone else on the gameplay forum.

Raiders thought tool was legal, and had no idea of the illegalities the tool, nor did they have the means to see if it was legal. Suddenly we learn that the tool is illegal because moderation has access to data that we have no means of accessing.

You would be correct if you said that it was our fault for using predator, but saying that we knew how predator worked is factually inaccurate.