My thoughts

[Benevolent Thomas]

So all in all fols, this has been fun. May I step down off the stand now? I was going to remain silent on the matter, but since it seems like a huge issue to you, I will file a GHR WITH those IRC logs, so moderation can peruse them.

Please do. Your 1v1 battles with people in all of these threads is very distracting. I made one massive post that explained my thoughts in a nutshell. Now that I've said what I've wanted to say, I want to listen to what others have to say. Your constant hounding of people is just giving people ammunition to turn this into a hyper-partisan conversation, which unfortunately distracts from the general self-evaluation that is taking place in the gameplay community in this somber moment.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Indeed, for someone advocating " STOP! By coming out and making public denials, or trying to shift blame, even before the final judgment has come down, you are only drawing more suspicion on to yourself," you seem to be falling victim to the same thing you're advising against.


...and also, I'll add, ignoring the third option in addition to denial or silence - owning up, and presenting a plan of action to move forward from the wrong.

[The Silver Sentinel]

So all in all fols, this has been fun. May I step down off the stand now? I was going to remain silent on the matter, but since it seems like a huge issue to you, I will file a GHR WITH those IRC logs, so moderation can peruse them.

Please do. Your 1v1 battles with people in all of these threads is very distracting. I made one massive post that explained my thoughts in a nutshell. Now that I've said what I've wanted to say, I want to listen to what others have to say. Your constant hounding of people is just giving people ammunition to turn this into a hyper-partisan conversation, which unfortunately distracts from the general self-evaluation that is taking place in the gameplay community in this somber moment.

Fair enough. I will let nature run its course. I was trying my level best to ask people to keep the thread civil yesterday, and it was working, until an attack was inevitabley made. But it is your OP and I will respect your wishes on the matter.

Indeed, for someone advocating " STOP! By coming out and making public denials, or trying to shift blame, even before the final judgment has come down, you are only drawing more suspicion on to yourself," you seem to be falling victim to the same thing you're advising against.

...and also, I'll add, ignoring the third option in addition to denial or silence - owning up, and presenting a plan of action to move forward from the wrong.

But I didn't make a public denial. I was subjected to a very bad faith attack, and I responded to the questions I was being asked. I find the fact that this whole thing was turned around on me to be somewhat amusing though.

As for for your last option? It sure is an option, just not one I would reccomend, until we see how much damage is yet to come.

[The Stalker]

None of this really surprises me, situations like these are merely symptoms of the greater R/D imbalance that has been allowed to fester for years now. Like many I hoped the R/D conference would help things, but we all know how that turned out.

The whole War mechanics of this game need a real change, it's not fun for the majority of NS. It's not fun for the masses who get run over by raider organizations like these, founderless regions who endure month long occupations, and for defenders, jeez, de-tagging is basically work and planning a liberation while a massive pile up occurs, very aggravating. And I hardly blame raiders, waring should be apart of the game, I would just like something where the majority of people could participate and was happy with the mechanics. Instead of a handful who can be on for the narrow window of time the update occurs and then can stampede across dozens of regions.

[Benevolent Thomas]

TSS you're welcome to keep posting. I just don't want rapid fire line-by-line responses to every other post made in this thread. It leads to the type of bickering that you were warning against yesterday. I want people to feel comfortable enough so that they can post their true and honest feelings, so we can all understand how we feel as a community. Many of the posts here are fairly emotional. I don't want to lose that emotion to robotic point scoring we see all other threads devolve into.

[We Are Not the NSA]

More than most people do. I always own up to what I have done. And this looks an awful lot like a personal attack.

Report it to moderation then.

As I have always said, I do what needs to be done. I don't hide behind some veil of moralistic virtue.

And I respect you for that.

And your point being? It's not like it absolutely requires Halcones' permission to activate the script or anything. Change a couple of like of code and you're in. I merely wanted to see what it actually did. That's what we call investigating.

So what you're saying, is that you investigated the script, and didn't find anything worth sending to moderation? I thought it was the responsibility of everyone who used it to check the script to make sure it was legal. Isn't that what defenders have been saying since this started? If you guys couldn't find anything, why should raiders be expected to find something?

Feel what you like. You were the one that stated:

On August 14, 2015, I sent Halcones a message via Skype asking if I could have access to Predator. I never received a response, which has kept my "I have never actually had a conversation with Halcones" streak alive. At the time, Predator was the go to script for triggering, and there was no reason to question its legality. To be entirely honest, I had no idea what it was, or how scripts work, and I am convinced that had I accessed it I would not have been able to get it to work, let alone figure out what it does. So, tl;dr: I've never used a script before, let alone an illegal one.

If I may point out, you were contacting a DOS player for access to a script, conceived by and maintained my a DOS player, and you have the audacity to turn this around on me, and accuse me of collusion?

I have the audacity to do lots of things, but usually I wouldn't be stupid enough to make this accusation. And I'm not denying anything. I attempted to do something illegal but failed, and it was a stupid decision. I could have just not said anything, and since I've never used Predator before, no one would have been any the wiser. But I felt that I owed it to the rest of the site to admit to it, and if moderation thinks it is worthy of punishment I will not object.

Like I have said multiple times, I was given to be by a source.

Still not entirely happy with that answer.

As much as you do.

But I have never actually seen the code for the script, and you have. Pretty sure that means you know more.

Why does it fucking matter? No one is required to out their puppets. I felt like I had run the course with the "Chester" personae, and decided on a new one. Is this now a DOSable offence? It is also completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand, and is nothing but a petty strawman, which is far less than I expected from you.

Yeah, I'm not particularly proud of that sentence, but the goal was get you on the defensive and I figured it couldn't hurt.

Get a warrant or become a mod and I will tell you everything you want to know about that source. Until then, I am required to tell you nothing.

That's okay, I wasn't expecting you to answer that one...

Like I said, i have a source.

Although it probably would have helped you make a better answer here.

Explained. But by all means keep turning this around on me or someone else.

Nah, I'm good. I came out of this with exactly what I was angling for. To be entirely honest, I didn't actually believe you used it, but I figured publicly accusing you of using it would be the easiest way to figure out how you had access to it, or who gave you access to the source code for it. Looking at the evidence I have compiled elsewhere, and adding your responses here to it, I'm pretty sure I figured out how you got it. Thanks. o7

[Drop Your Pants]

Nah, I'm good. I came out of this with exactly what I was angling for. To be entirely honest, I didn't actually believe you used it, but I figured publicly accusing you of using it would be the easiest way to figure out how you had access to it, or who gave you access to the source code for it. Looking at the evidence I have compiled elsewhere, and adding your responses here to it, I'm pretty sure I figured out how you got it. Thanks. o7

So your entire reason for posting here was a regional thing and not about the problem this whole mess has caused?

[Cormactopia II]

Nah, I'm good. I came out of this with exactly what I was angling for. To be entirely honest, I didn't actually believe you used it, but I figured publicly accusing you of using it would be the easiest way to figure out how you had access to it, or who gave you access to the source code for it. Looking at the evidence I have compiled elsewhere, and adding your responses here to it, I'm pretty sure I figured out how you got it. Thanks. o7

Really? That's your concern?

You get the definite sense that DEN has learned nothing from this and isn't remotely sorry, which is the same sense one got after the TBR recruitment script debacle. It's honestly shocking, the level of indifference you have, as a region, toward some of the worst and most unimaginable site rules violations. It's almost like you have nothing but contempt for anyone else playing NationStates, including other raiders.

[We Are Not the NSA]

Nah, I'm good. I came out of this with exactly what I was angling for. To be entirely honest, I didn't actually believe you used it, but I figured publicly accusing you of using it would be the easiest way to figure out how you had access to it, or who gave you access to the source code for it. Looking at the evidence I have compiled elsewhere, and adding your responses here to it, I'm pretty sure I figured out how you got it. Thanks. o7

So your entire reason for posting here was a regional thing and not about the problem this whole mess has caused?

No, I've spent half the day trying to compile a list of people who have/had access to Predator. I figured that whoever gave SS access to it could have given it to others as well. Plus, I am genuinely suspicious of his source. We are having a discussion about an illegal script, that is probably going lead to a few DOS's and some puppet sweeps. Holding back relevant information on that script seems weird to me.

[The Silver Sentinel]

So your entire reason for posting here was a regional thing and not about the problem this whole mess has caused?

No, I've spent half the day trying to compile a list of people who have/had access to Predator. I figured that whoever gave SS access to it could have given it to others as well. Plus, I am genuinely suspicious of his source. We are having a discussion about an illegal script, that is probably going lead to a few DOS's and some puppet sweeps. Holding back relevant information on that script seems weird to me.

You do realize that Feurer Ritter posted a link to it on the forums back in July, and it was up for almost a day before that thread was taken down. There could be an unreal amount of people that have access to that code. Did this come up in your investigations anywhere?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

No, I've spent half the day trying to compile a list of people who have/had access to Predator. I figured that whoever gave SS access to it could have given it to others as well. Plus, I am genuinely suspicious of his source. We are having a discussion about an illegal script, that is probably going lead to a few DOS's and some puppet sweeps. Holding back relevant information on that script seems weird to me.

You do realize that Feurer Ritter posted a link to it on the forums back in July, and it was up for almost a day before that thread was taken down. There could be an unreal amount of people that have access to that code. Did this come up in your investigations anywhere?

I could be wrong, but I recall that just being sheets.

[The Silver Sentinel]

You do realize that Feurer Ritter posted a link to it on the forums back in July, and it was up for almost a day before that thread was taken down. There could be an unreal amount of people that have access to that code. Did this come up in your investigations anywhere?

I could be wrong, but I recall that just being sheets.

Nope. It was the Predator application. It is just that most people at the time had no idea what it did.

[We Are Not the NSA]

No, I've spent half the day trying to compile a list of people who have/had access to Predator. I figured that whoever gave SS access to it could have given it to others as well. Plus, I am genuinely suspicious of his source. We are having a discussion about an illegal script, that is probably going lead to a few DOS's and some puppet sweeps. Holding back relevant information on that script seems weird to me.

You do realize that Feurer Ritter posted a link to it on the forums back in July, and it was up for almost a day before that thread was taken down. There could be an unreal amount of people that have access to that code. Did this come up in your investigations anywhere?

I was aware of that thread's existence, but I had no idea that the script he had linked to was Predator. I remember at the time someone in the DEN chat said that it wasn't a big deal, because it wasn't _____. I though they said Predator, but I guess it was Elite. Shit, that's really bad.

[Ultimate Sacrifice]

I'm 99.9% sure it was just sheets. I downloaded the folder. I'll check it when I get to my computer later.

You also said you got it from a source. Now you're saying you got it from FR?

[The Silver Sentinel]

I'm 99.9% sure it was just sheets. I downloaded the folder. I'll check it when I get to my computer later.

You are mistaken.

You also said you got it from a source. Now you're saying you got it from FR?

I am not saying anything at all. I simply pointed out that FR did post a thread in Gameplay which contained the code.

[Aurum Rider]

I don't think that this thread was made for arguing about who has and doesn't have predator.

[Shadoke]

I could be wrong, but I recall that just being sheets.

Nope. It was the Predator application. It is just that most people at the time had no idea what it did.

I'll call bullshit on that one, I downloaded it from there and it was nothing but sheets. Try covering your ass with something less transparent.

[We Are Not the NSA]

I'm 99.9% sure it was just sheets. I downloaded the folder. I'll check it when I get to my computer later.

You are mistaken.

You also said you got it from a source. Now you're saying you got it from FR?

I am not saying anything at all. I simply pointed out that FR did post a thread in Gameplay which contained the code.

I'm sorry SS, it was unfair of me to try to coax information out of you, especially when I did so by pseudo insulting you. I'm getting tired and the way you kept dodging questions was getting on my nerves. This whole debacle has been stressing me out a lot, and I took my frustration about this out on you. I just can't believe how many people were cheating, and not knowing who was and was not doing it willfully is killing me.

[The Silver Sentinel]

You are mistaken.


I am not saying anything at all. I simply pointed out that FR did post a thread in Gameplay which contained the code.

It's not Predator.
Feuer Ritter never recieved a copy of Predator source code because
A: Halcones never would have given out Predator source code
B: Even if Frak Wrote it, Frak dpesn't share source code either
C: Halcones and Frak hated Feuer Ritter enough that they tried to DOS him on their way out, and took bob down with them because he was siding with Feuer

This leaves 2 obvious conclusions
1: You either colluded with a DOS player and gained access to the closed source program, Predator
2: You do not have access to Predator

1. My source is not DOS. There are several people with access to the Predator application, and that is all one needs.

2. It's not closed source at all. Use a Python editor, and you can change the code.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I'm 99.9% sure it was just sheets. I downloaded the folder. I'll check it when I get to my computer later.

You are mistaken.

You also said you got it from a source. Now you're saying you got it from FR?

I am not saying anything at all. I simply pointed out that FR did post a thread in Gameplay which contained the code.

No, I'm confident now that you are. I fired up my old laptop where I swore I had that folder downloaded to see what he "leaked," and I still did. There were two folders and several assorted files within the downloaded folder.

Folder one is called "New Folder," and contains the files "ELITE tool," "ELITE update tools," and "Updating Sheet," all of which are excel spreadsheets.

Folder two is called "other stuff" and contains the word doc "autofill puppet maker," the .txt files "iMacro issue answerer" and "iMacro Auto-login," and the excel spreadsheet "updating target selection."

The assorted files are six spreadsheets and one word doc - the latter being "update tool guides" and the former six being "ADVANCED update tool," "BASIC update tool," "ELITE update tool," "INTERMEDIATE update tool," "Target list with times," and "Updating tool."

Nothing in there is a .exe client-side predator program or predator source code.

I'll be happy to prove this any way you wish - screenshots, re-uploading the folder somewhere, etc.

[Shadoke]

You are mistaken.


I am not saying anything at all. I simply pointed out that FR did post a thread in Gameplay which contained the code.

No, I'm confident now that you are. I fired up my old laptop where I swore I had that folder downloaded to see what he "leaked," and I still did. There were two folders and several assorted files.

Folder one is called "New Folder," and contains the files "ELITE tool," "ELITE update tools," and "Updating Sheet," all of which are excel spreadsheets.

Folder two is called "other stuff" and contains the word doc "autofill puppet maker," the .txt files "iMacro issue answerer" and "iMacro Auto-login," and the excel spreadsheet "updating target selection."

The assorted files are six spreadsheets and one word doc - the latter being "update tool guides" and the former six being "ADVANCED update tool," "BASIC update tool," "ELITE update tool," "INTERMEDIATE update tool," "Target list with times," and "Updating tool."

Nothing in there is a .exe client-side predator program or predator source code.

Can confirm I had the same exact folder

[The Silver Sentinel]

You are mistaken.


I am not saying anything at all. I simply pointed out that FR did post a thread in Gameplay which contained the code.

I'm sorry SS, it was unfair of me to try to coax information out of you, especially when I did so by pseudo insulting you. I'm getting tired and the way you kept dodging questions was getting on my nerves. This whole debacle has been stressing me out a lot, and I took my frustration about this out on you. I just can't believe how many people were cheating, and not knowing who was and was not doing it willfully is killing me.

For the most part I do somewhat agree with you guys. Most of the people using Predator would have had zero indication the program was illegal. That being said, there are those select few who knew exactly what they were doing, and they know who they are. I didn't take what you said personally by any stretch. You were utilizing a tactic that I may have tried. You did a pretty good bad cop routine.

[Reploid Productions]

Okay, timeout!

Given the scope of the Predator scandal and the realization that one or more raiding groups have been cheating their way to victory in some capacity for roughly two years, it's understandable that emotions are going to be running high on all sides, whether raider, defender, or native.

This is neither the time nor the place for purely points-scoring nastiness and scrambling to scapegoat one another. If you suspect someone's been using an illegal script, scoring cheap points in the Gameplay forum is NOT what you should be doing with this information. We have had numerous reports filed via the Getting Help page, from people coming clean to us about having used the script, sharing information they have about the script, data generated by the script, suspicions about people who are using the script or have helped develop it, and so on.

The cheap digs stop, end of. This situation goes beyond "Ha ha, $group is in deep crap now!" or "I knew X was cheating!" or "Well, why didn't Y figure it out sooner?" and so on.

Feel free to express your frustration, your disappointment, your sense of betrayal, and even your anger; but remember that the site rules still apply, and this is a time for people to start discussing solutions. Cheap shots and tit-for-tat bickering do not move the discussion toward solutions. If these threads continue to degenerate, they will be locked.

Leave the matter of who is getting modbombed and how badly to the mods/admins.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Admin
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[ChingisOtchigin]

BASIC is ELITE without the macro, ADVANCED and INTERMEDIATE are the in betweeners which never really stuck. Updating Sheet is literally BASIC, but oriented to make updating ELITE maximally easy (just replace the spreadsheet and off you go). This is just in case, anyone has uncertainities about what all those names EWS listed are.

[The Mighty Warrior Horse]

It does explain in my overall lack of success in preventing the vast majority of their raids over the past few years. It wasn't for a lack of effort though, I just wasn't playing the same game as TBR/DEN.

Predator enables a player to cheat.

Made us faster defenders BT. Put it this way, we still got the odd delegate even against a script

Yeah that
I'm pretty happy we still did what we did against scripts
We beat robots sometimes
Consider