My thoughts

[North East Somerset]

While we're all sharing, here's some of my thoughts:

How do we prevent future recurrences, as the raiding community has proven twice now that its members are willing to flaunt the rules in such an egregious manner? Do we make it less tool-accessible? Completely randomize the update order to render any such timing scripts useless?

As long as Admin is operating an honor system for script usage, there will be more cheating.

I agree. And furthermore I think R/D would be better off without scripts at all. In fact I can't think of anything in NS Gameplay which has been improved* as a result of allowing scripts and increased access to site data logs through API etc.

* Lots of things have been made easier, but have they improved the game as an experience? No, imo.

---

Now as for the OP, I can understand the disappointment and frustration, and there is no way that can be remedied by talk. Talk is cheap, action is required to restore trust. But equally its important to direct it at those who are responsible, not just turn it into a blanket excuse to attack everyone who has engaged in raiding during the period.

I've been involved in the planning and execution of some of the largest military operations in R/D over the past few years, including in their timing - and I can say categorically I've never used or authorized the use of this Predator tool - but that we have succeeded time and time again in major update confrontations. Despite not having super accurate sub-second timing abilities, the end result has nearly always been victory, and that's because of the tactical approaches we've taken. When you have 27 updaters, like in Belgium earlier this year, super accurate timing is not relevant because the closer you make it the more units will miss, and that will offset any gains from defenders not noticing. I can tell you right now that was timed manually. And yet the end result was a successful, large scale occupation. And thus my point is that the outcome of these specific large scale operations would have been the same regardless of the existence of Predator, and thus that defenders cannot blame all their malaise on Predator, nor credit Predator with the success of all raiding activities.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I remember years ago, I used to be a proud raider.
Now I'm a raider.

Can confirm.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I will say this, because someone on the raider side needs to say it, and when something uncomfortable needs said I'm usually that guy: No other regions should be working with DEN right now, and the well-meaning and innocent members of DEN who don't want any part in cheating should be looking for more respectable regions that are committed to fair and responsible gameplay. DEN High Command needs to be held accountable for this, not just by Moderation but by their fellow players.

Any reason why you picked on DEN specifically? We may be the flavour of the year tagging group, but we are not by any stretch of the imagination the only region guilty. We likely do have marginally more ex-Predator users, but that is generally due to dual membership and the larger size of the organisation. I'm not going to call out other regions by name like some of my fellow raiders have due to a much decried concept that means different things to different people, but have a quick look at your own raiding region (and really any active significant raiding region) before going on a crusade against DEN for Predator usage.

If this is intended to be a shot at TBH, please do not assume that every one of our members who had access to this program used it under us. I can count exactly two people who I, as a member of command, know used it in a TBH raid, ever - Festavo and Kleo. Kleo has been using it for a long time, from previous regional involvements, and Fest picked it up very recently in an effort to spur activity in our region by being able to do tag runs without larger pre-update preparation. Beyond that, we have a few of our own sheets, most of which we haven't even bothered to fix post-ns-update that broke them, and are firm supporters of manual activity, as we always have been.

Personally I think the most fitting punishment would be for the mods to delete both the regions of DEN and The Black Riders, and refound them under moderations control so they can't be refounded again. While they may just claim they are placeholder regions, where they put their nations, in the end it would still be a major blow. Also a six month recruiting ban on newly founded region that takes over would fir the bill as well.

Hey, some of us worked hard to lock the latter one down I'll note as well, publicly for once - the only three nations in there are me, We Are Not the NSA, and Syl, following an operation not at all approved and in fact directly against the last orders of TBR leaders under that organization and largely carried out by people who were not members of TBR, and the regional password has been randomly scrambled. Personally, my motivation for doing so was to prevent the native attempt at flouting a felled raider region by building a democratic government and defender military in its husk.

Since I don’t use scripts, I couldn’t care less if they’re banned. It would level the playing field considerably—as would randomizing update order to render such scripts useless. The latter will probably prompt some raiders to take their marbles and go home, but maybe a serious wing-clipping is what’s in order to begin the healing process and restore trust.

In what is probably a first, I completely agree with Woodhouse. This is exactly what should happen, on the site administrative end, to ensure this never happens again and level the playing field. The proliferation of scripts has been bad for R/D even without cheating. R/D shouldn't be reduced to a game between script developers of "who can make the best script", but that is what it has largely become.

My main objection to this is the obvious - it greatly affects the ability to update, kills tagging dead, gives defenders a massive update advantage (could be an hour before we get a hit/miss, lots of time to pile in response), kills update execution of a good sleeper mission, and in essence reduces raiding to one scenario that is reliable - gaining an executive role in a region prior to the "raid."

[G-Tech Corporation]

You mean a group of players whose entire form of "gameplay" involves abusing a feature in order to engage in disruption and harassment would cheat?

Gotta say, this is the reaction of most of the people who have been talking to me from the RP communities; what is considered a bunch of malicious individuals who exploit the forebearance of Max cheated to more effectively kick over sand castles- color nobody surprised.

Not that I share that view, but this debacle combined with Halcones means Raiding/Raiders are viewed as even more loathsome than usual by those who don't R/D.

That said, I have to give major respect to BT and other 'fendas who actually gave the illegal script a run for its money.

[Mad-eye Jack]

My main objection to this is the obvious - it greatly affects the ability to update, kills tagging dead, gives defenders a massive update advantage (could be an hour before we get a hit/miss, lots of time to pile in response), kills update execution of a good sleeper mission, and in essence reduces raiding to one scenario that is reliable - gaining an executive role in a region prior to the "raid."

What is so bad about giving defenders a more frequent use of piling? Right now a majority of defenders can't mobilize during live raids at update but all the non updaters in raiding are used to pile regions to a point where it is near impossible for us to gather enough updaters to liberate the region?

And still you're only talking about an hour's worth of piling that we may or may not be able to do. Instead of 12 hours or more.

Anyway as far as this thread is concerned as a whole, BT made a lot of good points in the OP and first and foremost trust has to be restored although how that can happen I don't know. A strong response from moderation will be the first step, but also changing the culture within raiding as Cormac and others have talked about will be necessary. It seems like there was a time when raiding cared about winning a fair and legal battle and the competition that entailed and then at some point it became all about winning by any means necessary for a large subset of people. How deep this all runs, I guess we'll find out, but something has to change.

[Benevolent Thomas]

My main objection to this is the obvious - it greatly affects the ability to update, kills tagging dead, gives defenders a massive update advantage (could be an hour before we get a hit/miss, lots of time to pile in response), kills update execution of a good sleeper mission, and in essence reduces raiding to one scenario that is reliable - gaining an executive role in a region prior to the "raid."

[violet] forbid that invaders ever suffer from any disadvantage. May I remind you that a few years ago now that gameplayers from all corners of the spectrum met up to discuss the unbalance in r/n-d. Everyone agreed that things had to be changed. On top of that, people on the invader side of gameplay, who already had the acknowledged advantage, cheated in order to have an even greater advantage. Not once, might I add, but twice.

Now tell me, why shouldn't the game be made harder on you? Even if admin implemented the changes that Woodhouse, Cormac and NES have gotten behind, do you honestly believe that the game will be as remotely difficult for you as its been for me this past few years? Maybe its your turn to try harder.

[McMannia Squared]

I've entirely avoided posting here, both because I haven't participated in a tag or occupation raid in around two years (in fact I haven't tagged ever, I prefer sneaky stealth raiding) and because I am enduring a personal family tragedy that has left me jaded the past week. But seeing as how I am now leading a (small) raiding region and I am a long term player (on one account or another for over 9 years) I felt I should give my two cents.

Those of you who know me know what I am like. I tend to act a little immature (ADHD and OCD are a bitch) and I have a sense of humor that is ...colorful. Nothing racist or anything I just like to make crude jokes, usually of a sex nature because I am an immature college student who drinks too much. I can be a bit of an asshole and I don't always consider the implications of my words before I say them and it occasionally offends people, which I apologize for. I am many things, but I am not a cheater. I do not support or endorse cheating in any way, it violates both my moral code and my sense of enjoyment to cheat.

The past few days have been eye opening. I am sad to see that this tool (which I was not aware existed until this whole thing happened) has caused so much anger, pain, and has splintered trust in the NS community. I hope that a sense of trust and comradery can be rebuilt in the future and will attempt to play a part in that rebuilding.

I've been a member of multiple raiding groups, I was in the black riders, I am in DEN, I joined feuers BR revival mostly for the lols, I participated in BoSS, and am now a leader in its successor HYDRA COMMAND. I do not intend to allow this kind of rule flaunting and cheating take place within Hydra. Anti-Cheating rules will be strictly enforced, and any tools used will be ones that have been confirmed to be legal and rule following.

I am planning to make my own tool, an update time tool. I plan to work on it with a coder who has no connection to this game and has never played it. He is a personal friend of mine who I have known since childhood. The tool will follow all established rules and I will submit it to moderation before it is put into use to ensure it is legal and meets their guidelines.

I may be an asshole, inappropriate, and I do take pleasure in being a nuisance for others, but i am NOT A CHEATER, and I don't plan on becoming one. I'd rather quit the game than be a cheater, knowingly or unknowingly.

[The Silver Sentinel]

You know, I considered making a new thread for what I am about to say, but this seems like the more appropriate place. Also let me preface what I am about to say as I do not consider what has or hasn't gone on to be criminal in nature, so please lets not go there with that okay?

I will state, and have never denied the fact that I am a member of law enforcement. In fact I am actually involved in criminal investigations. Now what I am seeing is individuals an organizations trying their level best to distance themselves from the Predator scandal, and going out of their way to make sure they are not implicated in any way. My question is, why are you doing this publicly? So far, the focus has been on one organization in particular. Whether or not the justification for that narrow focus is justified or not, is likely to be revealed soon enough, by those that are conducting the official investigation on this. To all those that were not implicated, I offer this piece of advice. STOP! By coming out and making public denials, or trying to shift blame, even before the final judgment has come down, you are only drawing more suspicion on to yourself.

See when I am conducting an investigation, I go out of my way to ensure the person I am investigating can truly prove their innocence, if they are in fact innocent, or were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I always advise people, not to make public denials of anything. The more they come out and say "I have no knowledge of that", or " we knew nothing like that was going on", only lead me to believe they did know far more than they are willing to admit to, and either trying to cover their asses, or truly have something to hide. It make me go out of my way to look into those people with a very fine tooth comb. If someone questions you about it, or throws accusations around, and are not in a position to have the ability to back those claims up say "No comment" and move on.

There is likely to be major fallout from this, but I urge, if you are going to deny things, do it in private for the time being, until we have an official judgement on the matter. Talk to those conducting the investigation. Help them to the absolute very best of your ability. In the court of public opinion, are all raiders likely to be suspected? Probably? Is that in any way remotely fair? No. But the simple fact is a lot of people hate raiders, and are going to glom on to this nugget like they have just hit the entire goldmine. Ignore it. As long as you can be reasonably confident you have done nothing wrong, just stay silent about it for now. In the end after final judgement has been passed, attempt to distance yourselves all you want, but until we have see an official ruling, it is likely you are only casting more doubt upon yourselves, than you are actively dispelling, and are likely to have very bright light shone upon you, when it could have been avoided by publicly staying silent on the matter.

Thank you.

[Ambroscus Koth]

You know, I considered making a new thread for what I am about to say, but this seems like the more appropriate place. Also let me preface what I am about to say as I do not consider what has or hasn't gone on to be criminal in nature, so please lets not go there with that okay?

I will state, and have never denied the fact that I am a member of law enforcement. In fact I am actually involved in criminal investigations. Now what I am seeing is individuals an organizations trying their level best to distance themselves from the Predator scandal, and going out of their way to make sure they are not implicated in any way. My question is, why are you doing this publicly? So far, the focus has been on one organization in particular. Whether or not the justification for that narrow focus is justified or not, is likely to be revealed soon enough, by those that are conducting the official investigation on this. To all those that were not implicated, I offer this piece of advice. STOP! By coming out and making public denials, or trying to shift blame, even before the final judgment has come down, you are only drawing more suspicion on to yourself.

See when I am conducting an investigation, I go out of my way to ensure the person I am investigating can truly prove their innocence, if they are in fact innocent, or were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I always advise people, not to make public denials of anything. The more they come out and say "I have no knowledge of that", or " we knew nothing like that was going on", only lead me to believe they did know far more than they are willing to admit to, and either trying to cover their asses, or truly have something to hide. It make me go out of my way to look into those people with a very fine tooth comb. If someone questions you about it, or throws accusations around, and are not in a position to have the ability to back those claims up say "No comment" and move on.

There is likely to be major fallout from this, but I urge, if you are going to deny things, do it in private for the time being, until we have an official judgement on the matter. Talk to those conducting the investigation. Help them to the absolute very best of your ability. In the court of public opinion, are all raiders likely to be suspected? Probably? Is that in any way remotely fair? No. But the simple fact is a lot of people hate raiders, and are going to glom on to this nugget like they have just hit the entire goldmine. Ignore it. As long as you can be reasonably confident you have done nothing wrong, just stay silent about it for now. In the end after final judgement has been passed, attempt to distance yourselves all you want, but until we have see an official ruling, it is likely you are only casting more doubt upon yourselves, than you are actively dispelling, and are likely to have very bright light shone upon you, when it could have been avoided by publicly staying silent on the matter.

Thank you.

Potentially underrated post.

[McMannia Squared]

I understand that, I tend to ramble when I post things (the ADHD). I had originally intended to just post my support for the idea of raiders keeping their own in line, enforcing a strict no cheating policy within ranks, and it's an idea I intend to implement within Hydra. And then the rambling happened.

[McMannia Squared]

Plus after all these problems caused by secrets and lies, I thought a dose of honesty would be a nice change of pace. Honesty is always the best policy.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Plus after all these problems caused by secrets and lies, I thought a dose of honesty would be a nice change of pace. Honesty is always the best policy.

I agree honesty is the best policy, after the official judgement has come down. Being honest with those conducting the investigation would be far more helpful at the moment, than public statements trying to save face. At the moment there is little to no reason for anyone to say anything public on this, as it is still being investigated.

[McMannia Squared]

I don't have anything to contribute to the investigation itself. I don't tag raid, nor have I ever, and I've been retired from occupation raiding since before TBR fell, as I had transitioned to solely stealth raiding, which is still where I am apart from administrative duties in Hydra skype chat. I just wanted to offer my two cents and it ended up a lot longer than I intended due to previously mentioned rambling problems.

[Victor Borge]

I read a lot of things about how moderators can't ban all people that ever used Predator because it would completely destroy the raider community. And while this may be true consider this, because of the predator drone we defenders have lost a great deal of good people as well, maybe even more than would be deleted if mods would go all the way.

Predator killed some of my best NS friends.

I agree. And furthermore I think R/D would be better off without scripts at all. In fact I can't think of anything in NS Gameplay which has been improved* as a result of allowing scripts and increased access to site data logs through API etc.

Completely banning scripts shouldn't be necessary, scripts that just provide update times can be usefull and when used correctly and only for update times can improve gameplay.
R/D should be a game of skill nothing more, not who has the best coders in their camp, but who can jump faster/ manually trigger better.

[We Are Not the NSA]

Plus after all these problems caused by secrets and lies, I thought a dose of honesty would be a nice change of pace. Honesty is always the best policy.

I agree honesty is the best policy, after the official judgement has come down. Being honest with those conducting the investigation would be far more helpful at the moment, than public statements trying to save face. At the moment there is little to no reason for anyone to say anything public on this, as it is still being investigated.

Honesty? That's cute SS. What do you know about honesty? That's rhetorical by the way. You know, I've been sitting here all day, trying to assist with the investigation in anyway I could, and I thought you were doing the same, just in your own way. At first, I assumed that you were doing the thing you are known for, trying to combat raiders in anyway you could. Then I said to myself "You know what NSA, SS seems a little too invested in this 'search for the truth' of his. He's working an angle somehow."

So I did a little digging. And you would not believe what I found under the mud you've been flinging all day (emphasis mine):

I guess we'll have to let the mods decide if your tool is legal or illegal then. Considering you won't prove its authenticity, one would have to assume you are colluding with known DoS players. If I recall correctly, wasn't Halc made DoS for exactly the same thing?

Edit: What would it matter anyway? I have access to Predator, and it doesn't help defenders one iota. Sure I can generate target lists, but unless I know what targets are being attacked, the target lists do me no good.

Posted on December 8th, 2015, in The Black Riders - Here we go again!

So, I'm a little bit confused: how could someone so selflessly devoted to finding "the truth" fail to mention something as important as the fact that YOU have used Predator in the past? Based off of what you said here it is fairly clear you a) had access to it b) experimented with it, which I imagine involved using it and c) intended to use it if you could find a way to. Yet, you have neglected to mention any of this, instead dedicating your Sunday afternoon to complaining about unfair it is that raiders used an illegal script (because defenders using it is sooooo much better).

Now, at first I was shocked upon finding this. Frankly, I felt a little betrayed. Then some questions started forming.

How did you get access to a raider-controlled script?
How do you know so much about Predator?
Why did you try to hide your identity for the first several months you used this nation?
Who is this “source” you have been referring to all day?
Why is it that you seem to be so sure that Frak wrote Predator, despite the fact that it is generally accepted that Halcones wrote it?
How did you convince Halcones to give you access? Oh, I’m sorry, how did you convince Frak to give you access?

I await your explanation, as I’m sure things must not be the way they seem, right? Or maybe you’ll dismiss this like you always do when things are getting a little bit too hot.

EDIT: Which reminds me: have you submitted a GHR yet, or are you lying to moderation as well?

[Knot II]

Given this interesting tidbit, I am curious to know how many other defenders who have been on a holier-than-thou crusade in recent days knew of Chester's involvement with Predator and/or have actively utilized information gained from the script. It certainly implies that other defender higher-ups may have been involved in the investigation of how effective this tool could be used for defending purposes.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Oh thank god. Maybe he will stop talking now.

[ROM]

Given this interesting tidbit, I am curious to know how many other defenders who have been on a holier-than-thou crusade in recent days knew of Chester's involvement with Predator and/or have actively utilized information gained from the script. It certainly implies that other defender higher-ups may have been involved in the investigation of how effective this tool could be used for defending purposes.

Really? What evidence do you have that I wouldn't that would suggest that we are using this tool. As you say, we are too incompetent and if this illegal tool is as effective as it supposed to be, wouldn't we be better at defending if we are using Predator, which I can tell you right now we are not.

[Knot II]

Really? What evidence do you have that I wouldn't that would suggest that we are using this tool. As you say, we are too incompetent and if this illegal tool is as effective as it supposed to be, wouldn't we be better at defending if we are using Predator, which I can tell you right now we are not.

As Chester already concluded in his December 8th statement, "[Predator] doesn't help defenders one iota."

[ROM]

Really? What evidence do you have that I wouldn't that would suggest that we are using this tool. As you say, we are too incompetent and if this illegal tool is as effective as it supposed to be, wouldn't we be better at defending if we are using Predator, which I can tell you right now we are not.

As Chester already concluded in his December 8th statement, "[Predator] doesn't help defenders one iota."

I mean, that kinda is an obvious deduction, is it not? Even I, who does not have access to Predator could tell you that - it is designed for raiding, and giving precise update times for regions, and spitting out lists of regions to be tag raided. The only use, and this is without a doubt a stretch, is the accurate update times is can deliver. However, we have FT for that, a nd FT does not violate any game rules.

[Mad-eye Jack]

Given this interesting tidbit, I am curious to know how many other defenders who have been on a holier-than-thou crusade in recent days knew of Chester's involvement with Predator and/or have actively utilized information gained from the script. It certainly implies that other defender higher-ups may have been involved in the investigation of how effective this tool could be used for defending purposes.

Really? What evidence do you have that I wouldn't that would suggest that we are using this tool. As you say, we are too incompetent and if this illegal tool is as effective as it supposed to be, wouldn't we be better at defending if we are using Predator, which I can tell you right now we are not.

Right? As far as I know every defender commander uses Friar Tuck or Shiz's tool for regional update times. Obviously though TSS has some explaining to do. But more than anything it's a nice deflection from a DEN commander who at the very least probably knew that Predator interacted with a DoS player even if he didn't know the coding was illegal too, and still supported its use by his organization. You can't try and equate what is known about DEN and other raiders' use of the Predator tool to some manufactured theory.

[El Namaco]

Perspective, perspective, perspective.

It's that simple.

[The Silver Sentinel]

I agree honesty is the best policy, after the official judgement has come down. Being honest with those conducting the investigation would be far more helpful at the moment, than public statements trying to save face. At the moment there is little to no reason for anyone to say anything public on this, as it is still being investigated.

Honesty? That's cute SS. What do you know about honesty?

More than most people do. I always own up to what I have done. And this looks an awful lot like a personal attack.

That's rhetorical by the way. You know, I've been sitting here all day, trying to assist with the investigation in anyway I could, and I thought you were doing the same, just in your own way. At first, I assumed that you were doing the thing you are known for, trying to combat raiders in anyway you could.

As I have always said, I do what needs to be done. I don't hide behind some veil of moralistic virtue.

Then I said to myself "You know what NSA, SS seems a little too invested in this 'search for the truth' of his. He's working an angle somehow."

I thought that would have been obvious from the start.

So I did a little digging. And you would not believe what I found under the mud you've been flinging all day (emphasis mine):

I guess we'll have to let the mods decide if your tool is legal or illegal then. Considering you won't prove its authenticity, one would have to assume you are colluding with known DoS players. If I recall correctly, wasn't Halc made DoS for exactly the same thing?

Edit: What would it matter anyway? I have access to Predator, and it doesn't help defenders one iota. Sure I can generate target lists, but unless I know what targets are being attacked, the target lists do me no good.

Posted on December 8th, 2015,[/quote]
And your point being? It's not like it absolutely requires Halcones' permission to activate the script or anything. Change a couple of like of code and you're in. I merely wanted to see what it actually did. That's what we call investigating.

So, I'm a little bit confused: how could someone so selflessly devoted to finding "the truth" fail to mention something as important as the fact that YOU have used Predator in the past? Based off of what you said here it is fairly clear you a) had access to it b) experimented with it, which I imagine involved using it and c) intended to use it if you could find a way to. Yet, you have neglected to mention any of this, instead dedicating your Sunday afternoon to complaining about unfair it is that raiders used an illegal script (because defenders using it is sooooo much better).

I haven't used Predator. Like I said, I wanted to see what it did. I had little desire to use it, as it would not have helped us in any way. I don't detag, and that is all it would have been good for. And even if it was my job to set triggers, I am fully aware of how to do it manually thanks.

Now, at first I was shocked upon finding this. Frankly, I felt a little betrayed.

Feel what you like. You were the one that stated:

On August 14, 2015, I sent Halcones a message via Skype asking if I could have access to Predator. I never received a response, which has kept my "I have never actually had a conversation with Halcones" streak alive. At the time, Predator was the go to script for triggering, and there was no reason to question its legality. To be entirely honest, I had no idea what it was, or how scripts work, and I am convinced that had I accessed it I would not have been able to get it to work, let alone figure out what it does. So, tl;dr: I've never used a script before, let alone an illegal one.

If I may point out, you were contacting a DOS player for access to a script, conceived by and maintained my a DOS player, and you have the audacity to turn this around on me, and accuse me of collusion?

Then some questions started forming.

I expected no less.

How did you get access to a raider-controlled script?

Like I have said multiple times, I was given to be by a source.

How do you know so much about Predator?

As much as you do.

Why did you try to hide your identity for the first several months you used this nation?

Why does it fucking matter? No one is required to out their puppets. I felt like I had run the course with the "Chester" personae, and decided on a new one. Is this now a DOSable offence? It is also completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand, and is nothing but a petty strawman, which is far less than I expected from you.

Who is this “source” you have been referring to all day?

Get a warrant or become a mod and I will tell you everything you want to know about that source. Until then, I am required to tell you nothing.

Why is it that you seem to be so sure that Frak wrote Predator, despite the fact that it is generally accepted that Halcones wrote it?

Like I said, i have a source.

How did you convince Halcones to give you access? Oh, I’m sorry, how did you convince Frak to give you access?

I didn't.

I await your explanation, as I’m sure things must not be the way they seem, right? Or maybe you’ll dismiss this like you always do when things are getting a little bit too hot.

Explained. But by all means keep turning this around on me or someone else.

Given this interesting tidbit, I am curious to know how many other defenders who have been on a holier-than-thou crusade in recent days knew of Chester's involvement with Predator and/or have actively utilized information gained from the script. It certainly implies that other defender higher-ups may have been involved in the investigation of how effective this tool could be used for defending purposes.

I don't know Ivo. You have been monitoring #jump all this time. You should have the IRC logs, from when my source gave me access to the Predator code. And yes for the record there was a few higher up investigating Predator as well, to see what it did, so it could be reported if found illegal. I am sure that info will come out eventually though, but I am not at liberty to discuss it at the moment, as it is currently under investigation by the administration of this site.

Oh thank god. Maybe he will stop talking now.

Who me? You were present in that IRC conversation as well.

Given this interesting tidbit, I am curious to know how many other defenders who have been on a holier-than-thou crusade in recent days knew of Chester's involvement with Predator and/or have actively utilized information gained from the script. It certainly implies that other defender higher-ups may have been involved in the investigation of how effective this tool could be used for defending purposes.

Really? What evidence do you have that I wouldn't that would suggest that we are using this tool. As you say, we are too incompetent and if this illegal tool is as effective as it supposed to be, wouldn't we be better at defending if we are using Predator, which I can tell you right now we are not.

They have nothing Rom. This is nothing but a pathetic attempt to glom on to whatever they can, and turn this around on he defender camp.

Really? What evidence do you have that I wouldn't that would suggest that we are using this tool. As you say, we are too incompetent and if this illegal tool is as effective as it supposed to be, wouldn't we be better at defending if we are using Predator, which I can tell you right now we are not.

As Chester already concluded in his December 8th statement, "[Predator] doesn't help defenders one iota."

I doesn't. We don't tag raid.

Really? What evidence do you have that I wouldn't that would suggest that we are using this tool. As you say, we are too incompetent and if this illegal tool is as effective as it supposed to be, wouldn't we be better at defending if we are using Predator, which I can tell you right now we are not.

Right? As far as I know every defender commander uses Friar Tuck or Shiz's tool for regional update times. Obviously though TSS has some explaining to do. But more than anything it's a nice deflection from a DEN commander who at the very least probably knew that Predator interacted with a DoS player even if he didn't know the coding was illegal too, and still supported its use by his organization. You can't try and equate what is known about DEN and other raiders' use of the Predator tool to some manufactured theory.

Thank you Jack.

So all in all folks, this has been fun. May I step down off the stand now? I was going to remain silent on the matter, but since it seems like a huge issue to you, I will file a GHR WITH those IRC logs, so moderation can peruse them.

[El Namaco]

Honesty? That's cute SS. What do you know about honesty?

More than most people do. I always own up to what I have done. And this looks an awful lot like a personal attack.

That's rhetorical by the way. You know, I've been sitting here all day, trying to assist with the investigation in anyway I could, and I thought you were doing the same, just in your own way. At first, I assumed that you were doing the thing you are known for, trying to combat raiders in anyway you could.

As I have always said, I do what needs to be done. I don't hide behind some veil of moralistic virtue.

Then I said to myself "You know what NSA, SS seems a little too invested in this 'search for the truth' of his. He's working an angle somehow."

I thought that would have been obvious from the start.

So I did a little digging. And you would not believe what I found under the mud you've been flinging all day (emphasis mine):


Edit: What would it matter anyway? I have access to Predator, and it doesn't help defenders one iota. Sure I can generate target lists, but unless I know what targets are being attacked, the target lists do me no good.

Posted on December 8th, 2015,

And your point being? It's not like it absolutely requires Halcones' permission to activate the script or anything. Change a couple of like of code and you're in. I merely wanted to see what it actually did. That's what we call investigating.

So, I'm a little bit confused: how could someone so selflessly devoted to finding "the truth" fail to mention something as important as the fact that YOU have used Predator in the past? Based off of what you said here it is fairly clear you a) had access to it b) experimented with it, which I imagine involved using it and c) intended to use it if you could find a way to. Yet, you have neglected to mention any of this, instead dedicating your Sunday afternoon to complaining about unfair it is that raiders used an illegal script (because defenders using it is sooooo much better).

I haven't used Predator. Like I said, I wanted to see what it did. I had little desire to use it, as it would not have helped us in any way. I don't detag, and that is all it would have been good for. And even if it was my job to set triggers, I am fully aware of how to do it manually thanks.

Now, at first I was shocked upon finding this. Frankly, I felt a little betrayed.

Feel what you like. You were the one that stated:

On August 14, 2015, I sent Halcones a message via Skype asking if I could have access to Predator. I never received a response, which has kept my "I have never actually had a conversation with Halcones" streak alive. At the time, Predator was the go to script for triggering, and there was no reason to question its legality. To be entirely honest, I had no idea what it was, or how scripts work, and I am convinced that had I accessed it I would not have been able to get it to work, let alone figure out what it does. So, tl;dr: I've never used a script before, let alone an illegal one.

If I may point out, you were contacting a DOS player for access to a script, conceived by and maintained my a DOS player, and you have the audacity to turn this around on me, and accuse me of collusion?

Then some questions started forming.

I expected no less.

How did you get access to a raider-controlled script?

Like I have said multiple times, I was given to be by a source.

How do you know so much about Predator?

As much as you do.

Why did you try to hide your identity for the first several months you used this nation?

Why does it fucking matter? No one is required to out their puppets. I felt like I had run the course with the "Chester" personae, and decided on a new one. Is this now a DOSable offence? It is also completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand, and is nothing but a petty strawman, which is far less than I expected from you.

Who is this “source” you have been referring to all day?

Get a warrant or become a mod and I will tell you everything you want to know about that source. Until then, I am required to tell you nothing.

Why is it that you seem to be so sure that Frak wrote Predator, despite the fact that it is generally accepted that Halcones wrote it?

Like I said, i have a source.

How did you convince Halcones to give you access? Oh, I’m sorry, how did you convince Frak to give you access?

I didn't.

I await your explanation, as I’m sure things must not be the way they seem, right? Or maybe you’ll dismiss this like you always do when things are getting a little bit too hot.

Explained. But by all means keep turning this around on me or someone else.

Given this interesting tidbit, I am curious to know how many other defenders who have been on a holier-than-thou crusade in recent days knew of Chester's involvement with Predator and/or have actively utilized information gained from the script. It certainly implies that other defender higher-ups may have been involved in the investigation of how effective this tool could be used for defending purposes.

I don't know Ivo. You have been monitoring #jump all this time. You should have the IRC logs, from when my source gave me access to the Predator code. And yes for the record there was a few higher up investigating Predator as well, to see what it did, so it could be reported if found illegal. I am sure that info will come out eventually though, but I am not at liberty to discuss it at the moment, as it is currently under investigation by the administration of this site.

Oh thank god. Maybe he will stop talking now.

Who me? You were present in that IRC conversation as well.

Given this interesting tidbit, I am curious to know how many other defenders who have been on a holier-than-thou crusade in recent days knew of Chester's involvement with Predator and/or have actively utilized information gained from the script. It certainly implies that other defender higher-ups may have been involved in the investigation of how effective this tool could be used for defending purposes.

Really? What evidence do you have that I wouldn't that would suggest that we are using this tool. As you say, we are too incompetent and if this illegal tool is as effective as it supposed to be, wouldn't we be better at defending if we are using Predator, which I can tell you right now we are not.

They have nothing Rom. This is nothing but a pathetic attempt to glom on to whatever they can, and turn this around on he defender camp.

Really? What evidence do you have that I wouldn't that would suggest that we are using this tool. As you say, we are too incompetent and if this illegal tool is as effective as it supposed to be, wouldn't we be better at defending if we are using Predator, which I can tell you right now we are not.

As Chester already concluded in his December 8th statement, "[Predator] doesn't help defenders one iota."

I doesn't. We don't tag raid.

Really? What evidence do you have that I wouldn't that would suggest that we are using this tool. As you say, we are too incompetent and if this illegal tool is as effective as it supposed to be, wouldn't we be better at defending if we are using Predator, which I can tell you right now we are not.

Right? As far as I know every defender commander uses Friar Tuck or Shiz's tool for regional update times. Obviously though TSS has some explaining to do. But more than anything it's a nice deflection from a DEN commander who at the very least probably knew that Predator interacted with a DoS player even if he didn't know the coding was illegal too, and still supported its use by his organization. You can't try and equate what is known about DEN and other raiders' use of the Predator tool to some manufactured theory.

Thank you Jack.

So all in all fols, this has been fun. May I step down off the stand now? I was going to remain silent on the matter, but since it seems like a huge issue to you, I will file a GHR WITH those IRC logs, so moderation can peruse them.[/quote]






Did you not say this?:

You know, I considered making a new thread for what I am about to say, but this seems like the more appropriate place. Also let me preface what I am about to say as I do not consider what has or hasn't gone on to be criminal in nature, so please lets not go there with that okay?

I will state, and have never denied the fact that I am a member of law enforcement. In fact I am actually involved in criminal investigations. Now what I am seeing is individuals an organizations trying their level best to distance themselves from the Predator scandal, and going out of their way to make sure they are not implicated in any way. My question is, why are you doing this publicly? So far, the focus has been on one organization in particular. Whether or not the justification for that narrow focus is justified or not, is likely to be revealed soon enough, by those that are conducting the official investigation on this. To all those that were not implicated, I offer this piece of advice. STOP! By coming out and making public denials, or trying to shift blame, even before the final judgment has come down, you are only drawing more suspicion on to yourself.

See when I am conducting an investigation, I go out of my way to ensure the person I am investigating can truly prove their innocence, if they are in fact innocent, or were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I always advise people, not to make public denials of anything. The more they come out and say "I have no knowledge of that", or " we knew nothing like that was going on", only lead me to believe they did know far more than they are willing to admit to, and either trying to cover their asses, or truly have something to hide. It make me go out of my way to look into those people with a very fine tooth comb. If someone questions you about it, or throws accusations around, and are not in a position to have the ability to back those claims up say "No comment" and move on.

There is likely to be major fallout from this, but I urge, if you are going to deny things, do it in private for the time being, until we have an official judgement on the matter. Talk to those conducting the investigation. Help them to the absolute very best of your ability. In the court of public opinion, are all raiders likely to be suspected? Probably? Is that in any way remotely fair? No. But the simple fact is a lot of people hate raiders, and are going to glom on to this nugget like they have just hit the entire goldmine. Ignore it. As long as you can be reasonably confident you have done nothing wrong, just stay silent about it for now. In the end after final judgement has been passed, attempt to distance yourselves all you want, but until we have see an official ruling, it is likely you are only casting more doubt upon yourselves, than you are actively dispelling, and are likely to have very bright light shone upon you, when it could have been avoided by publicly staying silent on the matter.

Thank you.

We need some kind of proper "court" ruling to get evidence from both sides on Predator.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Did you not say this?:

You know, I considered making a new thread for what I am about to say, but this seems like the more appropriate place. Also let me preface what I am about to say as I do not consider what has or hasn't gone on to be criminal in nature, so please lets not go there with that okay?

I will state, and have never denied the fact that I am a member of law enforcement. In fact I am actually involved in criminal investigations. Now what I am seeing is individuals an organizations trying their level best to distance themselves from the Predator scandal, and going out of their way to make sure they are not implicated in any way. My question is, why are you doing this publicly? So far, the focus has been on one organization in particular. Whether or not the justification for that narrow focus is justified or not, is likely to be revealed soon enough, by those that are conducting the official investigation on this. To all those that were not implicated, I offer this piece of advice. STOP! By coming out and making public denials, or trying to shift blame, even before the final judgment has come down, you are only drawing more suspicion on to yourself.

See when I am conducting an investigation, I go out of my way to ensure the person I am investigating can truly prove their innocence, if they are in fact innocent, or were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I always advise people, not to make public denials of anything. The more they come out and say "I have no knowledge of that", or " we knew nothing like that was going on", only lead me to believe they did know far more than they are willing to admit to, and either trying to cover their asses, or truly have something to hide. It make me go out of my way to look into those people with a very fine tooth comb. If someone questions you about it, or throws accusations around, and are not in a position to have the ability to back those claims up say "No comment" and move on.

There is likely to be major fallout from this, but I urge, if you are going to deny things, do it in private for the time being, until we have an official judgement on the matter. Talk to those conducting the investigation. Help them to the absolute very best of your ability. In the court of public opinion, are all raiders likely to be suspected? Probably? Is that in any way remotely fair? No. But the simple fact is a lot of people hate raiders, and are going to glom on to this nugget like they have just hit the entire goldmine. Ignore it. As long as you can be reasonably confident you have done nothing wrong, just stay silent about it for now. In the end after final judgement has been passed, attempt to distance yourselves all you want, but until we have see an official ruling, it is likely you are only casting more doubt upon yourselves, than you are actively dispelling, and are likely to have very bright light shone upon you, when it could have been avoided by publicly staying silent on the matter.

Thank you.

We need some kind of proper "court" ruling to get evidence from both sides on Predator.

I sure did say that, and it has zero bearing on the conversation we were just having. In the future if you are going to quote a massive wall of text, please spoiler it. As for a court ruling? The mods are the only court on this site, and will give us a ruling in good time I am sure.