Just got invaded by DEN

[Jocospor]

My region was recently invaded by DEN. I have reset everything, and revoked all privileges for WA delegates. How can we bring them to justice? They seem to be running rampant, taking over both small and large nations. Honestly, I can see many players getting frustrated with invaders. I want people to join my nation, but not destroy it. Is there any was to give them a badge or label, or even just keep them from entering nations without submitting a request to the officers?

I have just published a proposal in the World Assembly Security Council which CONDEMNS DEN.

All anti-DEN supporters should rally behind this proposal so that DEN can be universally condemned.

The proposal can be found here:

I look forward to your cooperation. DEATH TO DEN!

[Reploid Productions]

I honestly never really understood Max Barry's staunch support of raiding in NationStates.

I can probably explain it.

The short version: It's less about staunch support and more that there is no way to ban it without also destroying a very large part of the game's ability for players to engage in politicking with one another.

The much longer version: Raiding exists as an unconventional use of a standard part of the game's system. There is no systematic, programmable way to draw a line between "raiding", "inter-regional political struggle", "internal coup", "internal coup with external support," and "regular old jockeying for power in a region." As far as the game's code can tell, these are all the same thing: a tally of WA endorsements in the region.

Calling in the mods to make subjective determinations between all of the above has been tried in an attempt before Influence was introduced to mitigate the far more disastrous effects of early raiding after regional controls were added. It was a miserable failure that barely limped us along until the subjective element was removed with the introduction of Influence. The old pre-Influence invasion rules left a lot of players extremely unhappy, and a lot of the entire mod team immensely frustrated with tons of time spent wasted trying to judge these highly subjective situations.

These are the sorts of changes that could eliminate raiding, and I'm sure you'll immediately see why any of these changes would completely and totally suck for the vast majority of players who aren't engaged in R/D gameplay:

• Remove the ability to change regions. If nations can't relocate, raiding cannot happen. (This was how the ill-fated Nationstates 2 made by Jolt/OMAC started out. Many people were not happy about being unable to relocate to be in the same region as their friends.)
• Eliminate regions. No regions, no raiding. (Would kinda fuck up the entire World Assembly proposal system though. Plus everybody would be all lumped into one massive dogpile, effectively destroying the many varied and sometimes incredibly complex regional government systems players have created.)
• Remove regional controls. Without those, raiders can't do anything to harm regions. (Regions couldn't handle their own governing or do much of anything, either.)

Several tools have been added over the years to give players the ability to effectively opt-out of being raidable. You can password-lock your region to prevent people from entering. Even more effective is the ability of a founder to deny the region's WA delegate executive access to the regional controls. A region with an active founder is already not a very attractive target for anything worse than a tag raid, which is mostly harmless, albeit irritating. A region with an active founder and a non-executive WA delegate is basically untouchable, even if they don't have the region password protected. While it remains true that founders can cease to exist and end up leaving the region vulnerable, an active and coordinated region can still make themselves a difficult target for raiders; and there is always the option of founding a new region to relocate into so that a group can retain the protection of a founder.

Given politics is a thing strewn with challenges and fraught with dangers, the boss' goal is to strike a balance between the two styles of play. Those who really want to can easily protect themselves and stay out of R/D gameplay; those who are more careless run the risk of leaving themselves open to attack.

[Sentinel Optik]

I honestly never really understood Max Barry's staunch support of raiding in NationStates.

There is no systematic, programmable way to draw a line between "raiding", "inter-regional political struggle", "internal coup", "internal coup with external support," and "regular old jockeying for power in a region." As far as the game's code can tell, these are all the same thing: a tally of WA endorsements in the region.

These are all the same thing. Those who think their own internal revolution is more moral or more worthy of being permitted than a "raid" are deluding themselves. The nation with the highest endorsement count is the delegate, period. The delegate has all the powers given to them by the founder, period. A region where the founder has CTEd has no single person with any right to determine the direction of the region other than the current delegate, period.

A region which is unable to defend itself does not deserve self-determination, and it definitely does not deserve to have NS coded in a way to protect founders from themselves who are somehow, after all these years, still surprised when an executive delegate is overthrown.

[Eastern Equestria]

Sucks for you. Should have password-protected your region if you cared about it so much.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

I have just published a proposal in the World Assembly Security Council which CONDEMNS DEN.

All anti-DEN supporters should rally behind this proposal so that DEN can be universally condemned.

The proposal can be found here:

I look forward to your cooperation. DEATH TO DEN!

Which has since been removed from the floor.

[RiderSyl]

Sucks for you. Should have password-protected your region if you cared about it so much.

Hey, wait, that signature...
TBR never tried to occupy your region.

[We Are Not the NSA]

I have just published a proposal in the World Assembly Security Council which CONDEMNS DEN.

All anti-DEN supporters should rally behind this proposal so that DEN can be universally condemned.

The proposal can be found here:

I look forward to your cooperation. DEATH TO DEN!

Which has since been removed from the floor.

Looks like the proposal wasn't the only thing that was removed from the WA...

[The United Republic of the Helghan Race]

The United Federation of Planets just got raided. An embassy between my region and theirs just closed. I feel so bad for them and am offering them a place to stay.

However, to the main point of this article, what I hate is how people think its ok to ruin others gameplay. They think its funny to do so, but I find it disgusting that someone takes pride in harming others. However they are essentially trolls, however you wish to look at it. Since Max allows raiding since he won't put in a war system, we have to put up with the bs. Regardless, we need to unite against these people if we want change. Otherwise, just brace yourself for the many wars they rage.

I have a puppet I use to raid I just do it cause ITS PART OF THE GAME IF YOU DONT LIKE IT WHO CARES ITS NOT GOING ANYWHERE IT NEVER WILL AND PASSWORDS ARE USELESS SOMEONE COULD JUST GIVE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE THEN THAT REGION STILL DIES!!!!!!!!! I use to do that a lot before this nation got barred from the WA

Also DEN has mods in it trying to condemn it is useless.

[We Are Not the NSA]

The United Federation of Planets just got raided. An embassy between my region and theirs just closed. I feel so bad for them and am offering them a place to stay.

However, to the main point of this article, what I hate is how people think its ok to ruin others gameplay. They think its funny to do so, but I find it disgusting that someone takes pride in harming others. However they are essentially trolls, however you wish to look at it. Since Max allows raiding since he won't put in a war system, we have to put up with the bs. Regardless, we need to unite against these people if we want change. Otherwise, just brace yourself for the many wars they rage.

I have a puppet I use to raid I just do it cause ITS PART OF THE GAME IF YOU DONT LIKE IT WHO CARES ITS NOT GOING ANYWHERE IT NEVER WILL AND PASSWORDS ARE USELESS SOMEONE COULD JUST GIVE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE THEN THAT REGION STILL DIES!!!!!!!!! I use to do that a lot before this nation got barred from the WA

Also DEN has mods in it trying to condemn it is useless.

We don't have mods...

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Which has since been removed from the floor.

Looks like the proposal wasn't the only thing that was removed from the WA...

Yeah, I did notice that.

[Ambroscus Koth]

I find it hilarious that folks like the delegates of Forest and Antarctica have made statements to the effect of "Oh well, at least it's over with" in response to their streak breaking raids, but bleeding hearts such as Morndul are here contradicting the natives' own feelings in order to oppose me.

Which is it? Did it affect them or did it not? Your word against the natives', Morndul.

[Morndul]

I find it hilarious that folks like the delegates of Forest and Antarctica have made statements to the effect of "Oh well, at least it's over with" in response to their streak breaking raids, but bleeding hearts such as Morndul are here contradicting the natives' own feelings in order to oppose me.

Which is it? Did it affect them or did it not? Your word against the natives', Morndul.

I don't know what their actual words were, but the way you tell it their statements are consistent with what I'm saying. "At least it's over with" sounds to me like the words of someone who, ya'know, would prefer that it didn't happen. Who would react differently? You and Syl seem keen on acting like I'm painting it as some great tragedy. I've tried to choose my words carefully. What it actually is, I say again, is a dick move.

And the point stands: it is something a raider can do to a foundered region that cannot be undone in seconds.

[ADST World]

Sucks for you. Should have password-protected your region if you cared about it so much.

That's the thing, I didn't want to, because I wanted to make a free, fun region where people could come, join, and rise to power or leave when they wanted. I feel as though being raided for wanting other people to have freedom in my region, and not be crushed by a dictatorship, is not something that any group should be able to condemn and harm.

[Reploid Productions]

Also DEN has mods in it trying to condemn it is useless.

No mods are currently members of DEN. And even if there were, those mods would be prohibited from making any rulings on DEN-related actions or proposals. Your insinuation that one or more moderators are deliberately abusing their authority in such a manner is inaccurate and unwelcome.

[Almonaster Nuevo]

As a raider, the best idea is to join the defenders. There is 10000 Islands, Texas, Belgium, Gay, Philosophy 115, and maybe Canada.

Canada has been a non r/d neutral since 2005. Philosophy 115 was a school region, now pretty much dead. Belgium is not tagged as defender, although I don't know enough of their history to be sure.

Gay and 10000 Islands are defenders, though. 2/5 ain't bad.

[Severisen]

As a raider, the best idea is to join the defenders. There is 10000 Islands, Texas, Belgium, Gay, Philosophy 115, and maybe Canada.

Canada has been a non r/d neutral since 2005. Philosophy 115 was a school region, now pretty much dead. Belgium is not tagged as defender, although I don't know enough of their history to be sure.

Gay and 10000 Islands are defenders, though. 2/5 ain't bad.

Belgium is pretty defender, and Texas, which you failed to address, also is. 4/6... which is 2 outta 3...

And... well... Two out of three ain't bad

[Phydios]

Sucks for you. Should have password-protected your region if you cared about it so much.

That's the thing, I didn't want to, because I wanted to make a free, fun region where people could come, join, and rise to power or leave when they wanted. I feel as though being raided for wanting other people to have freedom in my region, and not be crushed by a dictatorship, is not something that any group should be able to condemn and harm.

Then set up the region properly. Take a look at my region; open, free, safe.

[ADST World]

That's the thing, I didn't want to, because I wanted to make a free, fun region where people could come, join, and rise to power or leave when they wanted. I feel as though being raided for wanting other people to have freedom in my region, and not be crushed by a dictatorship, is not something that any group should be able to condemn and harm.

Then set up the region properly. Take a look at my region; open, free, safe.

What I ended up doing was removing WA delegate rights. I will make officers as they earn the title, I guess. I just wanted a small location for people to join. Why don't raiders just leave us alone? Is it really necessary to annoy and disturb others for the integrity of the game to be upheld?

[Ayvari]

What I ended up doing was removing WA delegate rights. I will make officers as they earn the title, I guess. I just wanted a small location for people to join. Why don't raiders just leave us alone? Is it really necessary to annoy and disturb others for the integrity of the game to be upheld?

Good move. Non-executive delegacies are only raided when you have a very long term delegate (i.e., ten years), making it worth something (see: Antarctica). Unless they aren't paying attention and hit a non-exec anyways. Even so, raiders can't do anything in a non-exec delegacy.

Be happy now!

And no, it's not necessary to annoy others. Disturb can't be helped - a region without nations isn't much of a target to me. Including yours, really. But tagging is fairly indiscriminate.

We don't control your reactions, though, so annoyance isn't our objective.

[RiderSyl]

<snip>

Well said.

[Nayba Collective]

- Raiding is fun. You think being a raider means you have no respect for anyone? You think I need to learn respect, because of what I do on a game? You need a healthy dose of perspective if that's what you genuinely believe.

That's just a softer version of the general internet troll faux justification, where no one is ever allowed to take anything seriously or like anything unironically, because how dare they. Raiding is about feeling good by annoying people. It's pretty much inherently disrespectful, and while not "legally" considered trolling on NS... it's basically just trolling.

If someone was to tell me that the loss of a label next to their delegate seat was emotionally harmful to them, I would tell them it's not worth caring that much about and that there are way, way more important things in life.

Morndul, why are you making such a small, insignificant part of the game seem so important?

Obviously, if your purpose isn't solely to amuse yourself by annoying others, then raiding should be a small, insignificant part of the game to you. So why is it so important to you? And if it isn't really something important to you, then why do you bother doing it, and why not just quit doing it?

We don't control your reactions, though, so annoyance isn't our objective.

If it didn't elicit a reaction, if nations all over NS just left the raid tags up and completely ignored them, you wouldn't do it, which is why raiders don't just make tiny one-nation regions to spam tags on.

So yes, it seems it really is about annoying people. Which, "legally" on NS isn't considered trolling, but don't kid yourself, we aren't fooled.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

- Raiding is fun. You think being a raider means you have no respect for anyone? You think I need to learn respect, because of what I do on a game? You need a healthy dose of perspective if that's what you genuinely believe.

That's just a softer version of the general internet troll faux justification, where no one is ever allowed to take anything seriously or like anything unironically, because how dare they. Raiding is about feeling good by annoying people. It's pretty much inherently disrespectful, and while not "legally" considered trolling on NS... it's basically just trolling.

We don't control your reactions, though, so annoyance isn't our objective.

If it didn't elicit a reaction, if nations all over NS just left the raid tags up and completely ignored them, you wouldn't do it, which is why raiders don't just make tiny one-nation regions to spam tags on.

So yes, it seems it really is about annoying people. Which, "legally" on NS isn't considered trolling, but don't kid yourself.

You can take us seriously. We're playing the asshole side of things. The point is that it's like camping in COD, backstabbing someone in DayZ, that realm of ideas - we're being assholes, in a game. We find it fun, apparently, because we keep doing it. There are ways to have our fun not affect you, as expressed even within this thread. The fact that we play a game in a certain way does have a reflection on our lives - but that reflection, I swear to you, is almost entirely of good people blowing off a little steam by being the asshole for once, because they refuse to be that person in person. Being a raider does not make you an entitled 13 year old troll (though that's not to say we haven't seen them, gotten annoyed by them, and kicked them out before). It does not mean we're akin to rapists, as has been said, or want to make your lives miserable. We're playing a game. You are too. What Syl is saying is that if our actions in a game affect you that much, you need to take a step back and realize you may be a bit too invested in a game. If someone PvP's you while you were minding your own business in WoW and you lose all your stuff, do you have a breakdown and complain to staff that the practice shouldn't be allowed, or do you pick up the pieces and start again - maybe this time in a play area where you can't be affected?

It's not like we're trying to convince people the world is flat, dude. And people would absolutely continue to tag with zero response. Most tags never even get looked at for responses! Most taggers do it for numbers. They want to hit 60, 100, more. No, they don't make fodder, but that's more because they don't need to, and they also wouldn't reset themselves to be hit another day. And on the side of big raids, plenty do have little reaction, or a "okay guys everyone move here" one. We still do them.

[Nayba Collective]

In fact, I do stay only in foundered regions just to avoid you guys. Much like I don't play games in PvP areas - I don't want to deal with people like you wasting my time by essentially trolling, and why should I waste my time on you? I'm not here to be annoyed for your amusement.

Mostly, however, I'm annoyed by the high horse most raiders put themselves on. "Oh, we're rescuing you from taking the game seriously!" - like, I'm aware that it's a game, bro. (And yeah, I get it, you don't say it quite so literally, but that is what your arguments mean.) But I'm allowed to immerse myself in things, to enjoy them unironically, and you're not actually doing me or the world a service by saying "lolo why so serious?" And does a hobby become less worthy of respect because it's digital rather than physical, anyway? Do hours of writing fiction on a computer not count as compared to a typewriter? Time and effort are scarce, including the time for leisure. Wasting time is a real cost, really, not just a fake one. (Make us all immortal and I'll change my tune.)

So it's not the full truth to admit you're playing the annoying side of things. Also, your goal of "why so serious?" isn't meaningful either.

[ChingisTan]

--NVM--

[ChingisOtchigin]

Raiders hardly get the biggest kick out of your reaction when going tag raiding. It's kinda like, pro soccer players are super happy when they score a goal, because they scored a goal, not because the opposition goalkeeper threw a tantrum (though that's always nice to see).