Just got invaded by DEN

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Absolutely NONE OF US are using ANY scripting! Please stop falsely accusing raiders of breaking rules.

PREDATOR DOES NOT USE SCRIPTING.

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. It is a script, like an API client is, or TBH's sheets, or any one of dozens of perfectly legal chunks of code used every day in relation to NS. The issue here seems to be, if I'm reading moderation correctly, between the fact that they're not sure if Predator really is legal (following the scripting rules listed on site), and the fact that using it requires direct interaction (at least on the machine level) and permission from a DOS user, therefore giving him an impact on the game.

[Queen Yuno]

It totally follows the scripting rules listed on this site o~o So it's legal, scripting-wise. The only issue is the DOS part (Which should be left to moderatorn's judgment.)

[Eluvatar]

It totally follows the scripting rules listed on this site

Why are you so certain of this?

[The Silver Sentinel]

I will. What was legal by design when making, remains legal by design when using.

Random UDL cannonfodder cannot change that.

The UDL dude in moderation can change my legal status, but not change Predator's legal programming.

I stand on this line. If I must die, ok, Predator is still legal.

Raiding was also against the rules at one time, now it's not. Rules change Cora. Players either learn to adapt to them, or they find a different way to spend their time. Just because you say Predator is legal, does not make it so....

So no one is using Predator any longer?

PREDATOR DOES NOT USE SCRIPTING.

Wrong! Perhaps you should start listening to the people with coding experience instead of plugging your ears instead? I am almost certain Predator will be declared illegal, and anyone who gets DEAT'ed for using it afterwards has no one to blame but themselves.

It totally follows the scripting rules listed on this site o~o So it's legal, scripting-wise. The only issue is the DOS part (Which should be left to moderatorn's judgment.)

When you you appointed to the moderation team, let alone the Administration team? You don't get to make the rules, the owner of the site does. If Max, or the Admins say no, then that is the way it is. Also have you seen the code of Predator? Have you dissected the code of Predator? I have.

[Mousebumples]

It totally follows the scripting rules listed on this site

Why are you so certain of this?

I'm guessing that there are probably some people in both sides of the R/D camp that are like me. I can follow idiot-proof instructions on how to run a script (i.e. keeping my puppets alive is my main use), but I wouldn't have the first clue about how to check if a script is legal. Blaat asked the other day if I used his login script, which is apparently a perl script, to which I said, "Yeah, I don't know what to do with that."

For those who can't remember where the Scripting Rules are, they are here - in the OSRS thread. Additionally, as mentioned by a few other mods before me, coordinating with DOS players regarding NS activities is against the rules. This isn't new, and this shouldn't be news. As other mods have said before me, the time is now to file a GHR if you have any activities you'd like to own up to before it's too late.

[Ultimate Sacrifice]

Raiding was also against the rules at one time, now it's not. Rules change Cora. Players either learn to adapt to them, or they find a different way to spend their time. Just because you say Predator is legal, does not make it so....

I can't remember raiding being illegal at any point. Can you show me when it was?

Have you seen the code of Predator? Have you dissected the code of Predator? I have.

Did you file your GHR? I mean, you said anyone who used it or had seen it got it directly from Halc, right? Including you? I kind of find it implausible that you have the connections to have done this. Perhaps you could give us your analysis of the code then? Does it follow the script rules? If not, what do you see as illegal in it?

[Mousebumples]

Raiding was also against the rules at one time, now it's not. Rules change Cora. Players either learn to adapt to them, or they find a different way to spend their time. Just because you say Predator is legal, does not make it so....

I can't remember raiding being illegal at any point. Can you show me when it was?

I don't know that Raiding itself was technically illegal, but Region Griefing definitely was. In the days before influence, there were set limits on how many "natives" could be ejected by a new/raider delegate and the like. When Influence was introduced, those went away. If you have enough influence to do [action] (passwording, banning, ejecting), it was legal.

[Ultimate Sacrifice]

Yes, I'm quite aware

[The Silver Sentinel]

Have you seen the code of Predator? Have you dissected the code of Predator? I have.

Did you file your GHR? I mean, you said anyone who used it or had seen it got it directly from Halc, right? Including you? I kind of find it implausible that you have the connections to have done this. Perhaps you could give us your analysis of the code then? Does it follow the script rules? If not, what do you see as illegal in it?

No I haven't filed a GHR, as I did not get the code from Halc. I gained access to the code from someone else, who is not DOS. If the mods would like to contact me about it, they know how.

[Flanderlion]

I'm guessing that there are probably some people in both sides of the R/D camp that are like me. I can follow idiot-proof instructions on how to run a script (i.e. keeping my puppets alive is my main use), but I wouldn't have the first clue about how to check if a script is legal. Blaat asked the other day if I used his login script, which is apparently a perl script, to which I said, "Yeah, I don't know what to do with that."

http://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=361367

I think this is one of the best explanations for Blaat's script (as well as including the links to the original thread etc.). I think there was something a little wrong with the dispatch that was easily fixed (through the launching/saving bit), and I launch scripts in a different way and through a completely different sort of directory system, so it's not striking me when I glanced at it. Give it another shot, it's quite a good small script. A good way to open the scripts is to double click on it in the file which automatically runs it through the Perl interpreter, but initially when you run it, you want to be sure it works, so run it through command prompt so the error messages don't vanish near instantly.

And if you had found anything illegal in Predator Silver Sentinel, you'd be crying it from the roof tops. I don't know if its legal or not (I'm guessing it is - but the DOS maintaining is probably what has tainted it to unusability) - I wrote the rest of the reply, then deleted it, that's why this ends disjointedly.

[The Silver Sentinel]

And if you had found anything illegal in Predator Silver Sentinel, you'd be crying it from the roof tops.

Where did I ever once say I had found something illegal in the script? I said "I am almost certain it will be declared Illegal". Does that mean the script itself is violating the scripting rules? No. The fact is it requires a direct connection to a computer directly under the control of Halcones a DOS player. These disingenuous accusations against me, for bringing it up are starting to become pathetic.

[The old wildlife pen pal]

Why are you so certain of this?

I'm guessing that there are probably some people in both sides of the R/D camp that are like me. I can follow idiot-proof instructions on how to run a script (i.e. keeping my puppets alive is my main use), but I wouldn't have the first clue about how to check if a script is legal.

But surely whether you can check if a script is legal or not yourself is irrelevant? If it's an illegal script and you're the person running it, it's still your responsibility, and punishments should be dealt out accordingly (in a similar manner to how linking to certain sites is banned, even if the poster didn't create the site. Your post, your responsibility).

[Cora III]

And if you had found anything illegal in Predator Silver Sentinel, you'd be crying it from the roof tops.

Where did I ever once say I had found something illegal in the script? I said "I am almost certain it will be declared Illegal". Does that mean the script itself is violating the scripting rules? No. The fact is it requires a direct connection to a computer directly under the control of Halcones a DOS player. These disingenuous accusations against me, for bringing it up are starting to become pathetic.

Yes. Its legal.

Yes. Its fact it required a access to drop box (legal) account under the control of both pre-DOS and post-DOS Halcones, not required/requiring presence of either.
Yes. Its legal hold author's copyrights (regardless of DOS-status) and copy protection if commercial transactions aren't involved (evidently the case), and for ensuring that legal but efficiently coded program cannot be easily reverse-engineered and re-coded illegal.
Yes. Its true that Predator's use doesn't change anything in the game, as well as that post-DOS Halcones doesn't have to be lurking online in shadows for Predator trigger to use the tool. Program doesn't break any scripting rules in any of its functions.
Yes. Its true that only really different features of Predator when compared to sheet-technology are better visual user interface, better target filtering/searching options, and automatic raid reporting system under trigger's control. Auto-reports are saved to archive folders in drop box. Sheets are 'Predator-lites' in all other relevant ways.

Yes. Its really becoming pathetic as person who could give more detailed answers was DOS'd for totally different matters not related to Predator anyway, being now unable to give those answers.

Indeed. Its equally pathetic that the UDL affiliated spokesperson declare 'facts' about raider tools, that one of original development inspirations was create legal weapons to fight against the UDL & co. more efficiently.

Strictly speaking, if all relevant rules concerning ongoing 'Predator-Crisis' would be followed by all participants, there wouldn't be any issues at all to discuss.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Indeed. Its equally pathetic that the UDL affiliated spokesperson declare 'facts' about raider tools, that one of original development inspirations was create legal weapons to fight against the UDL & co. more efficiently.

I'm sorry, but how does Predator help you fight against defenders? Predator is a tool of aggression, whereas defenders are reactive to things that have already happened. You could tag raid very efficiently without Predator just fine. The only thing it makes easier is those hundred hit updates. Even if we had access to Predator, it would only help us plan detags to hits you have already completed.

So once again, how does it help you fight against defenders more effectively?

[Cora III]

So once again, how does it help you fight against defenders more

Relatively high accuracy (that isn't very different from sheets), easy-to-search target options for optimal target selection (for cases UDL would assemble overwhelming troops against raiders ), filters for delegate and founder activity, their endorsements, lenght of reigns etc. tactical stuff useful for cases UDL is encountered on the fields...



Measured by a number of your participating comments to this thread only name 'Predator' seems triggering some kind defensive measures in your defensively oriented defender mind, thus I must conclude Predator works for its intended purpose also as psychological R/D warfare measure.

Defenders ceased/downgraded their play of R/D while ago, and Predator clearly helped in that. Thanks to godly Raideron, legally.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Defenders ceased/downgraded their play of R/D while ago, and Predator clearly helped in that. Thanks to godly Raideron, legally.

And yet all I ever seem to hear is raiders complaining they have no competition from defenders. So tell me, have your tools improved R/D?

[Reploid Productions]

As mentioned previously, the initial results from the investigation are very heavily leaning toward Predator actually violating the scripting rules, and having done so prior to Halc's DOS. It's pretty much inevitable that the tool will be ruled illegal as a result. Considering part of Halc's DOS had to do with him using an illegal script in the first place, this really should not be surprising anyone at this point.

That it requires collaboration with a DOSed user to access and feeds said DOS user information is a separate but even more serious problem with the tool. Doubly so as it appears that one or more users have been actively colluding with said DOS to provide them information for updating said tool.This is why we are urging users who may have used it to come talk to us ahead of the formal declaration. We would rather not have to rain modly hellfire across what may be shaping up to be a sizable slice of the current raiding community's leadership.

Those who have already filed GHRs, I would like to confirm that we have seen them and we are taking note of what has been submitted so far. On behalf of the team, I would like to thank you for your cooperation.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Flanderlion]

As mentioned previously, the initial results from the investigation are very heavily leaning toward Predator actually violating the scripting rules, and having done so prior to Halc's DOS. It's pretty much inevitable that the tool will be ruled illegal as a result. Considering part of Halc's DOS had to do with him using an illegal script in the first place, this really should not be surprising anyone at this point.

That it requires collaboration with a DOSed user to access and feeds said DOS user information is a separate but even more serious problem with the tool. Doubly so as it appears that one or more users have been actively colluding with said DOS to provide them information for updating said tool.This is why we are urging users who may have used it to come talk to us ahead of the formal declaration. We would rather not have to rain modly hellfire across what may be shaping up to be a sizable slice of the current raiding community's leadership.

Those who have already filed GHRs, I would like to confirm that we have seen them and we are taking note of what has been submitted so far. On behalf of the team, I would like to thank you for your cooperation.

(Image)
~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

I'm a little surprised about the Predator likely breaching the script rules, whenever the consensus is reached, would you be able to explain the actual part or parts which violate the script rules. I expected it to be ruled illegal due to the DOS involvement. What about Elite, the version distributed and updated by DEN as opposed to the one distributed by the certain DOS user? They split, but were developed legally (I believe) from the same thing. Or will there be a need to develop entirely new tagging tools if region update times or the region updating markers don't eventuate? GHR wise - this is another one of the reasons for having GHR histories available for the player.

[Cora III]

Its clear that admins will pull every stone to declare Predator illegal no matter what, even against their own rulings.

I stood proudly on a cradle of newborn little P., playing with it's juvenile versions, searching bugs with it, helping it to grow to full maturity, learning to fly with it, flying when it shouldn't been possible, teaching others to fly...

I'll go proudly to the same grave with it on its crash site... with last legality of this site. Enough bullshit for me!

Take care folks, keep it cool,

o7

- Cora -
Purist Raider Mercenary
Predator test pilot, 12 kiloraids
701st TBR Squadron 'Fallen Angels'

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Cora, is this really the cause you're going to die over? I don't think anyone besides you even sees this one as some sort of a valiant stand. You don't need tools to raid; are you really going to give up raiding over a tool?

[Rena Ryugu]

There's more at stake here than a tool, unfortunately.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

There's more at stake here than a tool, unfortunately.

Yeah, a lot of people getting banned. However, history shows that that goes a lot better for everyone if they file a damned GHR and work with site staff (See: Nephmir, Sci).

The bottom line is, them's the rules, and at least to me it seems a fairly silly rule to make a last stand over.

[YoriZ]

I'm all for a native community continuing to pay attention once the immediate threat has left them.

So am I, but theirs is one of the most rule-breaking and ornery native communities in recent memory. Puppet-spam, threats, even to the point where one of their long-time natives with tons of influence got DEAT'd. When I heard DEN had re-occupied Anarchy, I actually felt sorry for DEN and asked them why they'd possibly want to go there after what TBR went through. I'm not kidding, and I wish I was really exaggerating.

If Nova Castlemilk was still active, along with YoriZ and Natapoc, I fear where this thread would be headed right now.
To be fair, though, I do have some respect for Natapoc, because at a couple points in the past, he has had rational and constructive discussions with raiders.

After being deathed, my nation was resurrected. The rule that was broken was not severe enough to justify a DOS-action. However, it remains in my nations history. I'm happy to hear you have some respect for natives of Anarchy and that you try to prevent raiders to become the victims of this very annoying community.


As I said before, the discussion really becomes more and more interesting. Raiders telling they don't use scripts till raiders telling they're rather be DOS'ed than giving up their scripts. I'm very interested to see this so called predator script. Does someone have some screenshots to share?

[The Type 49 TARDIS]

PREDATOR DOES NOT USE SCRIPTING.

It actually does. Scripting is just the coding in a program, that tells the program, what to do. So, everything has script. It's impossible to say that Predator doesn't use scripting, because then Predator wouldn't do anything! You don't even have access to Predator, so please Yuno, you're not making things any better. Listen to the propaganda posters, and watch what you say on the forums!

(don't mind me, just a little late to the party)

[Aurum Rider]

I'm coming in late, but there are my 2^10 cents.

If you are going to rule predator illegal because Halcones developed it, and is DOS, I am okay, but that is where it should stop. Ruling it as an illegal script, however, is what I would object to. I find this concerning, because in truth, Predator is essentially just a sheet with advanced search functions, and a variance calculator.

I have no issue banning predator, and I think it should be banned, but at the same time it worries me that a sufficiently talented raider with a sheet, or a programming-oriented raider who developed a tool of their own (I.E, Me), could be puppetswept/dos on suspicion of using an 'illegal script.'

If Moderation/Administration wants to ban predator/elite/what have you, I'd like to hear
What rules it's violating/Why they are banning it
How they aim to enforce the ban
How they will differentiate predator users from raider using legitimate resources (sheets/manual triggers/other tools)