Just got invaded by DEN

[Jersey Republic]

I am sick of raiding, all they do is raid regions just trying to have fun, I should know, my region has been raided twice. I was just trying to roleplay, I am sick of the black hawks and DEN, just ruins the experience

[Duddie01]

Well, I saw some good things come out of raiding. Super inactive founders return and get active again! Regions have natives who notice their region got raided and check up on it, and once they fix the mild mess we made, they get active and participate!

We just cause a stir with long term benefits, you just don't see it immediately,

(If no founders or natives return to check their region, then that region's dead to begin with and our raids technically make no difference. If they were already super active, then it's very easy to fix. There are TOOLS to recover lost WFEs, and raiders tend to leave overnight 'cuz it's tag raiding.)

I'm not a vicious person, I just see that there is no such thing as permanent damage which is why I raid and also there are some lovely people to chat with in DEN! That's primarily why I'm in it. Not because I'm aiming for hate-telegrams/reactions (though I do get them, gomenasai)

Don't forget to mention the very interesting discussions DEN nations have in the occupied regions RMBs. Posts from natives get suppressed and raiders usually post things like:

"DEN IS THE BEST REGION IN EXISTENCE

ALL HAIL DEN

DEN FOREVER"

And if raiders tend to leave active regions overnight, why are you holding your grasp on some native regions for months even claiming natives have to surrender?

In other words: don't believe anything raiders tell you or at least think twice.

Raiders want you to surrender and leave your region if it is from any relevance, so they can refound it and use it as a trophy.
Raiders want you to believe that their actions are beneficial to your region (activating it, showing security problems, ...), but actually they're destabilizing it and scaring away native nations (or banjecting them).
Raiders want you to believe their actions are harmless while they're just having fun, but instead they're bullying other players with the excuse they're more powerfull.

DEN IS THE BEST REGION IN EXISTENCE

ALL HAIL DEN

DEN FOREVER

Here's a telegram from YoriZ:

"Why should I come to DEN when DEN comes to me "

But why not come to den?

[Nayba Collective]

It is my absolute right to raid. The highest endo count is the delegate, who has the powers given to them by the founder. Please explain to me where in that chain I lack some kind of right to exercise my delegate powers as I see fit.

You have the right to try to defend against me obtaining delegacies, but as an active tag raider I can tell you that the fendas are poorly staffed and poorly equipped to deal with our onslaught. You are losing heartily on the battlefield.

It is my absolute right to rob your house. If you don't want me to rob your house, then it's YOUR fault for not having enough protection.

The SC can muster thousands of vote to condemn my Field Marshal, Gest, but not 5 fenda updaters to stand against our tags. If natives were truly that offended by our actions, wouldn't they stand against us?

Why would they waste their time fighting you? You think YOU are their top priority, buddy?
Let me tell you something: you are not their top priority. You are not that important.
People like me could defend, but that would be giving in to your silly little legalized griefing to do things I don't care about, so I just live in regions you don't grief instead.

You aren't an integral part of the gameplay. Your actions are a distraction and an annoyance, nothing more. That's why you're not seeing the opposition you claim is necessary to show that your actions are disliked. Your actions are a nuisance, not a threat.

I don't buy into the gameplay where people sign irrelevant treaties with each other and then don't act upon them. If I wanted to play make-believe that I was a member of Parliament I'd go elsewhere. I am here to wage war, and DEN is extremely good at what it does, which is why the only opposition we get is on the NS forums, not on the field of battle.

> roleplaying is irrelevant "make believe"
> raiding in NS is "waging war" on the "field of battle"

Raiding IS for the greater good because it is the only pure way to play this game, and the only organization where people support each other through actual action, not roleplaying that they're signing a worthless treaty.

The PURE way to play the game is to answer issues. Raiding is a form of metagaming.
Purity is a stupid criteria anyway. The problem is that you're a bunch of Fun Vampires that amuse yourselves by messing up other peoples' fun.

[Duddie01]

It is my absolute right to raid. The highest endo count is the delegate, who has the powers given to them by the founder. Please explain to me where in that chain I lack some kind of right to exercise my delegate powers as I see fit.

You have the right to try to defend against me obtaining delegacies, but as an active tag raider I can tell you that the fendas are poorly staffed and poorly equipped to deal with our onslaught. You are losing heartily on the battlefield.

It is my absolute right to rob your house. If you don't want me to rob your house, then it's YOUR fault for not having enough protection.

The SC can muster thousands of vote to condemn my Field Marshal, Gest, but not 5 fenda updaters to stand against our tags. If natives were truly that offended by our actions, wouldn't they stand against us?

Why would they waste their time fighting you? You think YOU are their top priority, buddy?
Let me tell you something: you are not their top priority. You are not that important.
People like me could defend, but that would be giving in to your silly little legalized griefing to do things I don't care about, so I just live in regions you don't grief instead.

You aren't an integral part of the gameplay. Your actions are a distraction and an annoyance, nothing more. That's why you're not seeing the opposition you claim is necessary to show that your actions are disliked. Your actions are a nuisance, not a threat.

I don't buy into the gameplay where people sign irrelevant treaties with each other and then don't act upon them. If I wanted to play make-believe that I was a member of Parliament I'd go elsewhere. I am here to wage war, and DEN is extremely good at what it does, which is why the only opposition we get is on the NS forums, not on the field of battle.

> roleplaying is irrelevant "make believe"
> raiding in NS is "waging war" on the "field of battle"

Raiding IS for the greater good because it is the only pure way to play this game, and the only organization where people support each other through actual action, not roleplaying that they're signing a worthless treaty.

The PURE way to play the game is to answer issues. Raiding is a form of metagaming.
Purity is a stupid criteria anyway. The problem is that you're a bunch of Fun Vampires that amuse yourselves by messing up other peoples' fun.

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[Sacred Toast]

My region was recently invaded by DEN. I have reset everything, and revoked all privileges for WA delegates. How can we bring them to justice? They seem to be running rampant, taking over both small and large nations. Honestly, I can see many players getting frustrated with invaders. I want people to join my nation, but not destroy it. Is there any was to give them a badge or label, or even just keep them from entering nations without submitting a request to the officers?

Hey I have an idea...

Why don't you just raid DEN back?

Like not literally but you could find one of thei puppet storages (like WOODEN) and take it over to annoy them. That is justice at it's finest right?

[Nayba Collective]

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This post is either one of two things.

Either:
- I legitimately got you angry, in which case, I believe the correct Raider response is, "It's just a forum, bro, stop taking it so seriously!", or
- You're just trolling and hoping to get a reaction out of me, which is kind of hilarious because it's such a poor quality attempt.

This is helping pay back the annoyance debt the raiders incurred. By all means, continue. I'll probably just add you to my ignore list.

[Duddie01]

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This post is either one of two things.

Either:
- I legitimately got you angry, in which case, I believe the correct Raider response is, "It's just a forum, bro, stop taking it so seriously!", or
- You're just trolling and hoping to get a reaction out of me, which is kind of hilarious because it's such a poor quality attempt.

This is helping pay back the annoyance debt the raiders incurred. By all means, continue. I'll probably just add you to my ignore list.

I'm just laughing at your lies.

[We Are Not the NSA]

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This post is either one of two things.

Either:
- I legitimately got you angry, in which case, I believe the correct Raider response is, "It's just a forum, bro, stop taking it so seriously!", or
- You're just trolling and hoping to get a reaction out of me, which is kind of hilarious because it's such a poor quality attempt.

This is helping pay back the annoyance debt the raiders incurred. By all means, continue. I'll probably just add you to my ignore list.

Whichever of those options it is, it was inappropriate and unprofessional, and I have reported it to moderation as spam.

[Gin Rummy]

Eh, it happens.

Personally, I don't have anything against raiding/defending, and I been in occupied regions before. I just figured it was part of NS gameplay (that isn't going away), so I usually just turn the other cheek to it.

[Sedgistan]

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*** Warned for spam/flamebait ***

[Sacred Toast]

It is my absolute right to rob your house. If you don't want me to rob your house, then it's YOUR fault for not having enough protection.



Why would they waste their time fighting you? You think YOU are their top priority, buddy?
Let me tell you something: you are not their top priority. You are not that important.
People like me could defend, but that would be giving in to your silly little legalized griefing to do things I don't care about, so I just live in regions you don't grief instead.

You aren't an integral part of the gameplay. Your actions are a distraction and an annoyance, nothing more. That's why you're not seeing the opposition you claim is necessary to show that your actions are disliked. Your actions are a nuisance, not a threat.


> roleplaying is irrelevant "make believe"
> raiding in NS is "waging war" on the "field of battle"



The PURE way to play the game is to answer issues. Raiding is a form of metagaming.
Purity is a stupid criteria anyway. The problem is that you're a bunch of Fun Vampires that amuse yourselves by messing up other peoples' fun.

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I get your point, people should understand that raiding is a way to play this game, but you should also understand that all these "systems" are another way people play this game. There are easy ways for a region to safeguard itself against raids. These systems may seem useless but to some people that is how the game should be played.

Honestly the line between "defender" and "raider" is very small, but very important. If Raiders become too powerful then everyone would safeguard their regions preventing people from raiding. If Raiders Disappear people become lazy and unsafeguard their regions.

This is why big Raid Regions like DEN and HYDRA/Brotherhood of Shadows come and go. It is an ever-flowing system that never stops. We shouldn't judge people on which side of the spectrum they are on because they are trying to do the same thing; have fun playing a game.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

The entire Raider argument

We can shit on you all we like, and if you have a problem, you should get protection! It's not our fault we're shitting on you!

First part: Kinda. THat's the fact of life here.

Second part? Nah. It is entirely our fault.


I'll repeat as well - remember there is a variance of views even among raiders. Optik represents one end. Just as Trump or Cruz do not speak for all Republicans, Optik's beliefs and motives do not necessarily represent the whole either.

[Braberland]

Well, let's be realistic here for a second: Raiding is not going away unless our Lord and Saviour Max "NationStates 2 faced the consequences for disobeying me" Barry decides to ban it in some way, which is going to be really difficult.

While roleplaying is by no means a small, unnecessary part of NationStates, you generally shouldn't base most of your RP on the region itself. While you use the region as the collection ground for your RPers, you want to use the NS forum or an offsite forum to base almost all of your IC-related activity instead of on the RMB. I honestly find it really unprofessional to see RP happening on the RMB, but that's just my experience of 6+ years of roleplaying in and outside of NS.

I also expect RP regions to have the necessary defenses to stay out of most raiding. This includes an active founder, delegate and a community of aware roleplayers. If you really don't want to lose your region's information, just save it on a nation or on Word. For example, the region of Africa's information is saved by me on my PC, and I also use a backup nation, International African Association, for storing certain aspects of the region (Africa's founder and region are very inactive though, so I might just move somewhere else or create a region myself if I get too bored around there). If your region does not have an active founder, it's really worthless to even staying there as a roleplayer and you should instead move to active regions.

Raiding is, like RP, not a part of the base game but still an essential part of NationStates. I'd suggest you either learn to live with them or go on a roleplaying forum without any interruption

[ChingisOtchigin]

On a factual point, BT hasn't been the most active defender on our end for months. Rom has never been. I've a ton of respect for BT, but if you're gonna propagandise, at least make it somewhat believable.

Honestly, active or not, Rom, BT and Jack are the only people who at least make an effort to stop us. A major fenda org jumping into a region occupied by a novice raiding org with 4 endo's once every 2 months =/= "defending" .

Oh and you know why you can't raid us back? 'Cause unlike you people who seem to struggle to comprehend the benefits of a N/E del, that is precisely what we have.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Well, let's be realistic here for a second: Raiding is not going away unless our Lord and Saviour Max "NationStates 2 faced the consequences for disobeying me" Barry decides to ban it in some way, which is going to be really difficult.

While roleplaying is by no means a small, unnecessary part of NationStates, you generally shouldn't base most of your RP on the region itself. While you use the region as the collection ground for your RPers, you want to use the NS forum or an offsite forum to base almost all of your IC-related activity instead of on the RMB. I honestly find it really unprofessional to see RP happening on the RMB, but that's just my experience of 6+ years of roleplaying in and outside of NS.

I also expect RP regions to have the necessary defenses to stay out of most raiding. This includes an active founder, delegate and a community of aware roleplayers. If you really don't want to lose your region's information, just save it on a nation or on Word. For example, the region of Africa's information is saved by me on my PC, and I also use a backup nation, International African Association, for storing certain aspects of the region (Africa's founder and region are very inactive though, so I might just move somewhere else or create a region myself if I get too bored around there). If your region does not have an active founder, it's really worthless to even staying there as a roleplayer and you should instead move to active regions.

Raiding is, like RP, not a part of the base game but still an essential part of NationStates. I'd suggest you either learn to live with them or go on a roleplaying forum without any interruption

Truth. Reality is, whining changes nothing. Doing something does. That doing something can be having a founder, it can be having your RP's anywhere but the RMB, it can be one of many things....but the end fact is, you can assail our motives and seasonings all you want, we'll still be here, we'll still be raiding, and so forth. Reality is, right or wrong, you can act proactively, or you can hope it never comes your way. The former is generally a lot more successful.

[Sentinel Optik]

The entire Raider argument

We can shit on you all we like, and if you have a problem, you should get protection! It's not our fault we're shitting on you!

First part: Kinda. THat's the fact of life here.

Second part? Nah. It is entirely our fault.


I'll repeat as well - remember there is a variance of views even among raiders. Optik represents one end. Just as Trump or Cruz do not speak for all Republicans, Optik's beliefs and motives do not necessarily represent the whole either.

Not every raider is going to describe themselves as an asshole, I guess I need to point that out since you feel the need to say, once again, that I do not represent all raiders.

EWS does not represent all raiders who self-identify as the assholes of NS.

Edit: this is in reference to this quote:

You can take us seriously. We're playing the asshole side of things.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

First part: Kinda. THat's the fact of life here.

Second part? Nah. It is entirely our fault.


I'll repeat as well - remember there is a variance of views even among raiders. Optik represents one end. Just as Trump or Cruz do not speak for all Republicans, Optik's beliefs and motives do not necessarily represent the whole either.

Not every raider is going to describe themselves as an asshole, I guess I need to point that out since you feel the need to say, once again, that I do not represent all raiders.

EWS does not represent all raiders who self-identify as the assholes of NS.

Indeed. I made clear in several posts that there are a wide variety of views, the view that we are doing natives "a favor" being a minority among them.

[New Ducklands]

Don't forget to mention the very interesting discussions DEN nations have in the occupied regions RMBs. Posts from natives get suppressed and raiders usually post things like:

"DEN IS THE BEST REGION IN EXISTENCE

ALL HAIL DEN

DEN FOREVER"

And if raiders tend to leave active regions overnight, why are you holding your grasp on some native regions for months even claiming natives have to surrender?

In other words: don't believe anything raiders tell you or at least think twice.

Raiders want you to surrender and leave your region if it is from any relevance, so they can refound it and use it as a trophy.
Raiders want you to believe that their actions are beneficial to your region (activating it, showing security problems, ...), but actually they're destabilizing it and scaring away native nations (or banjecting them).
Raiders want you to believe their actions are harmless while they're just having fun, but instead they're bullying other players with the excuse they're more powerfull.

DEN IS THE BEST REGION IN EXISTENCE

ALL HAIL DEN

DEN FOREVER

Here's a telegram from YoriZ:

"Why should I come to DEN when DEN comes to me "

But why not come to den?

About DEN, DEN could have its fun while actually being loved you know? Why don't they LIBERATE regions instead of raiding, then everyone will be shouting FOREVERDEN!

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

DEN IS THE BEST REGION IN EXISTENCE

ALL HAIL DEN

DEN FOREVER

Here's a telegram from YoriZ:

"Why should I come to DEN when DEN comes to me "

But why not come to den?

About DEN, DEN could have its fun while actually being loved you know? Why don't they LIBERATE regions instead of raiding, then everyone will be shouting FOREVERDEN!

And who would they be liberating them from?

[RiderSyl]

Also, again, without non-raiders, raiders would not be here. Without other people's fun to ruin, raiders would not be here. That's why raiders don't create their own "fun zone" regions just for raiding and not bother anyone else.

Without any targets, we couldn't raid. As I said in my earlier post, it's not about your reaction, though.

Also, there's no fun in the act of raiding something that's been created with the purpose of being raided. 'Tis why Warzones didn't become a popular thing.

It is my absolute right to raid.

It is my absolute right to rob your house. If you don't want me to rob your house, then it's YOUR fault for not having enough protection.

[YoriZ]

Well, let's be realistic here for a second: Raiding is not going away unless our Lord and Saviour Max "NationStates 2 faced the consequences for disobeying me" Barry decides to ban it in some way, which is going to be really difficult.

While roleplaying is by no means a small, unnecessary part of NationStates, you generally shouldn't base most of your RP on the region itself. While you use the region as the collection ground for your RPers, you want to use the NS forum or an offsite forum to base almost all of your IC-related activity instead of on the RMB. I honestly find it really unprofessional to see RP happening on the RMB, but that's just my experience of 6+ years of roleplaying in and outside of NS.

I also expect RP regions to have the necessary defenses to stay out of most raiding. This includes an active founder, delegate and a community of aware roleplayers. If you really don't want to lose your region's information, just save it on a nation or on Word. For example, the region of Africa's information is saved by me on my PC, and I also use a backup nation, International African Association, for storing certain aspects of the region (Africa's founder and region are very inactive though, so I might just move somewhere else or create a region myself if I get too bored around there). If your region does not have an active founder, it's really worthless to even staying there as a roleplayer and you should instead move to active regions.

Raiding is, like RP, not a part of the base game but still an essential part of NationStates. I'd suggest you either learn to live with them or go on a roleplaying forum without any interruption

Truth. Reality is, whining changes nothing. Doing something does. That doing something can be having a founder, it can be having your RP's anywhere but the RMB, it can be one of many things....but the end fact is, you can assail our motives and seasonings all you want, we'll still be here, we'll still be raiding, and so forth. Reality is, right or wrong, you can act proactively, or you can hope it never comes your way. The former is generally a lot more successful.

Never underestimate reality changing. Raiding hasn't always been a part of NS gameplay. We will see what the future will bring us. Acting proactively has more ways than having an active founder or taking your RP outside NS. Discussions like this one also contribute to the search for a balanced gameplay. What Ridersyl says is very interesting. Significant but founderless regions are needed for the raiding game because it's more fun to disturb (and threaten to destroy) a native player generated region than to play a r/d game in a war zone. Some game mechanics can be changed to alter this.

[Mad-eye Jack]

Honestly, active or not, Rom, BT and Jack are the only people who at least make an effort to stop us. A major fenda org jumping into a region occupied by a novice raiding org with 4 endo's once every 2 months =/= "defending" .

I don't want to "whine", but I'll commence doing what will probably appear as such. Even as someone who partakes in the futile exercise of defending against tag raids (although not as much now due to other time commitments), I can't really hold it against anyone who prefers not too. There isn't much that is stimulating about the whole thing from our side. 5, 6 or more taggers gear up and hit regions which, not only do they outnumber the world assembly members in, they usually outnumber the amount of nations in the region (and if there is more than one nation in the region, there are already usually one or two old R/D puppets in there). So basically we're sitting here trying to defend regions that are naturally indefensible, a lot of the time regions that have been neglected by their own inhabitants. Any time I or a group of defenders start to have some success in an update when for whatever reason the regions being targeted make things slightly more possible for defenders to be successful, the targets are switched to less favorable, less ambitious regions. Which is what we have to view as success at this point when defending against tag raiding.

When I first started defending about 1.5 years ago, raiders were still largely avoiding targets with founders and hitting regions with decent sized delegates, then regions without delegates were added to their menu, followed by regions with founders (and a lot without delegates). Progressively I've seen a shift of tag raiding from regions with communities that are part of what defenders are trying to protect to small very inactive regions that its own inhabitants have mainly neglected. It could be argued that this shift has been somewhat beneficial for more active communities but they're still not immune.

Add on top of all of this that the most recent changes instituted by the game, Regional Officers and World Census Report updates, have made all forms of defending more difficult than they already were, it's hard to blame anyone who doesn't want to partake. And I think that those that do partake end up doing way better than their counterparts could do in their position. The extra actions that defenders have to perform in order to be successful defending against tag raids, and raids in general, are more rigorous and without the benefit of picking the time, date and manner of our battles.

All that being said, defending isn't hopeless and its successes are very rewarding, so if anyone reading this doesn't like or agree with raiders are doing, you should get involved in defending and I encourage you to contact me or any notable defender you might see around here and ask how to start. I'm sure we'd be more than happy to help train you or put you into contact with someone who can.

[Cora III]

@Jack, honorable, skilled foe:

I know you're wrong. I've been enough banned from raider orgs. to learn what is possible against wartech I've been building, and testing myself. How it can be possible make Jump&endo 'shadow hits' with decent success rate, without keyboard, mouse, with junk-grade hardware and snail connection, if defenders can't do essentially same movements?

You can pre-endo, stalk, use site-provided tool (http://www.nationstates.net/page=activi ... ember+endo), and you have numbers on your side. Why you, dear purist enemy wardancer must pretend?

It's about lack of purpose. Because everyone can opt-out from R/D within seconds, there are no reasons to defend.

Don't blame us for that.

[Phrike]

The region I am in has an endorsement cap of 50% of the WA delegate, maybe you could find out how to do that too?

[Mad-eye Jack]

@Jack, honorable, skilled foe:

I know you're wrong. I've been enough banned from raider orgs. to learn what is possible against wartech I've been building, and testing myself. How it can be possible make Jump&endo 'shadow hits' with decent success rate, without keyboard, mouse, with junk-grade hardware and snail connection, if defenders can't do essentially same movements?

You can pre-endo, stalk, use site-provided tool (http://www.nationstates.net/page=activi ... ember+endo), and you have numbers on your side. Why you, dear purist enemy wardancer must pretend?

It's about lack of purpose. Because everyone can opt-out from R/D within seconds, there are no reasons to defend.

Don't blame us for that.

I'm not here to argue with you Cora, but I challenge you to do a few updates against the tag raid flavors of the day and then re-evaluate your opinion. Time is, and always will be, the greatest advantage on the battle field. At no point do I get to use time to my advantage, I only work against it. It's not nearly as easy to train people to be quick reactors to unfolding circumstances and complete multiple tasks where time works against you as it is to arrange people to hit a target within a certain window of time.

No need to draw this out because our worldviews have been shaped much differently on opposite sides, but I think I understand the challenges facing defenders far better than you do because of my experience.