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Just got invaded by DEN

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Aurum Rider
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Founded: Dec 23, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Aurum Rider » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:32 pm

There are 3 primary reasons why any scriptsmith making an update tool won't share it's source, legal or not:

1: If you are a raider, it is advantageous to have more advanced tech than the competition. Results bring in recruits, and unfortunately that has led to cheating. Losing the tool advantage means that there's little reason to join the big organizations outside of training, and having a group to consistently raid with.
2: The mass distribution of an advanced and easy to use update tool would completely annihilate any chances defenders had against tag raids because everyone and their dog would be raid-enabled, and tracking who's raiding what would become a complete nightmare. This sounds like an overwhelming advantage until you remember that it means raiders will be competing against eachother more than defenders.
3: If an open source tool is released, any and all holds any organization is holding comes under threat from a million angles. TBR and DEN are successful because natives don't have the know-how to attack their holds.

There's little problem with altering the request rate of open source tools (as if you make too many API or HTTP requests you get locked out anyway), but overall, releasing a tool of the likes of predator in open source format would benefit absolutely nobody but those who want to watch the R/D world implode in on itself.
Last edited by Aurum Rider on Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Captain in Chief - Danger Zone - Married to Ambroscus Koth
20XX is now!

Aurum Rider wrote:The year is 20xx, everyone has access to a raiding tool that can give them update times accurate within 10 seconds, so waiting an update to raid your enemy's raid is now the only viable strategy.

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ROM
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Postby ROM » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:37 pm

Aurum Rider wrote:There are 3 primary reasons why any scriptsmith making an update tool won't share it's source, legal or not:

1: If you are a raider, it is advantageous to have more advanced tech than the competition. Results bring in recruits, and unfortunately that has led to cheating. Losing the tool advantage means that there's little reason to join the big organizations outside of training, and having a group to consistently raid with.
2: The mass distribution of an advanced and easy to use update tool would completely annihilate any chances defenders had against tag raids because everyone and their dog would be raid-enabled, and tracking who's raiding what would become a complete nightmare.
3: If an open source tool is released, any and all holds any organization is holding comes under threat from a million angles. TBR and DEN are successful because natives don't have the know-how to attack their holds.

There's little problem with altering the request rate of open source tools (as if you make too many API or HTTP requests you get locked out anyway), but overall, releasing a tool of the likes of predator in open source format would benefit absolutely nobody but those who want to watch the R/D world implode in on itself.

Pretty much this. What use would this serve to natives and defenders? It is not like it shows what regions are going to be raided at update. All it does, I'm assuming, is juggle up a list of regions that meet a previously entered criteria, and then show the update time for the region.
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Aurum Rider
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Postby Aurum Rider » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:40 pm

TL;DR The year is 20xx, everyone has access to a raiding tool that can give them update times accurate within 10 seconds, so waiting an update to raid your enemy's raid is now the only viable strategy. The R/D metagame is now completely based on pouring money into stamps and trying to convince people to endorse you instead of the other faction.
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20XX is now!

Aurum Rider wrote:The year is 20xx, everyone has access to a raiding tool that can give them update times accurate within 10 seconds, so waiting an update to raid your enemy's raid is now the only viable strategy.

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ROM
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Postby ROM » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:49 pm

Aurum Rider wrote:TL;DR The year is 20xx, everyone has access to a raiding tool that can give them update times accurate within 10 seconds, so waiting an update to raid your enemy's raid is now the only viable strategy. The R/D metagame is now completely based on pouring money into stamps and trying to convince people to endorse you instead of the other faction.

OK, your hypothetical dystopia is a little melodramatic, but yeah, that is what would happen. Defenders would be shoved off to the side a long time ago. Natives would be pooled in a couple gigantic regions. Every region but those couple occupied regions would be occupied by invaders.
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The Silver Sentinel
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Postby The Silver Sentinel » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:53 pm

Aurum Rider wrote:The R/D metagame is now completely based on pouring money into stamps and trying to convince people to endorse you instead of the other faction.

Not really seeing a problem here myself. It certainly would have the advantage of slowing two-bit retaggers down, and wouldn't really affect the bigger organizations, as they only have the numbers to hold two or three regions at a time.

I must say, you do come up with some ingenious ideas.

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Aurum Rider
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Postby Aurum Rider » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:59 pm

I'd like to take credit for the joke, but it's a smash bros joke. Although I find it funny that I managed to paint an image of pay2win nationstates
Last edited by Aurum Rider on Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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20XX is now!

Aurum Rider wrote:The year is 20xx, everyone has access to a raiding tool that can give them update times accurate within 10 seconds, so waiting an update to raid your enemy's raid is now the only viable strategy.

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The Silver Sentinel
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Postby The Silver Sentinel » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:12 pm

Aurum Rider wrote:I'd like to take credit for the joke, but it's a smash bros joke. Although I find it funny that I managed to paint an image of pay2win nationstates

It's been pay-to-win for a while now. Either you have the money for stamps, or the money for a server to run 24/7.

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Benevolent Thomas
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Postby Benevolent Thomas » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:57 pm

If moderation released a tool that allowed anyone to raid, it'd mean that moderation was encouraging nations to raid. In this scenario, I'd stop defending and begin raiding because that's clearly what admin would want me to do.
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:34 pm

Aurum Rider wrote:There are 3 primary reasons why any scriptsmith making an update tool won't share it's source, legal or not:

1: If you are a raider, it is advantageous to have more advanced tech than the competition. Results bring in recruits, and unfortunately that has led to cheating. Losing the tool advantage means that there's little reason to join the big organizations outside of training, and having a group to consistently raid with.
2: The mass distribution of an advanced and easy to use update tool would completely annihilate any chances defenders had against tag raids because everyone and their dog would be raid-enabled, and tracking who's raiding what would become a complete nightmare. This sounds like an overwhelming advantage until you remember that it means raiders will be competing against eachother more than defenders.
3: If an open source tool is released, any and all holds any organization is holding comes under threat from a million angles. TBR and DEN are successful because natives don't have the know-how to attack their holds.

There's little problem with altering the request rate of open source tools (as if you make too many API or HTTP requests you get locked out anyway), but overall, releasing a tool of the likes of predator in open source format would benefit absolutely nobody but those who want to watch the R/D world implode in on itself.



So if I wrote a legal predator clone and open sourced it, I could end raiding forever? Do you promise?
Did you see a ghost?

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The Silver Sentinel
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Postby The Silver Sentinel » Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:43 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Aurum Rider wrote:There are 3 primary reasons why any scriptsmith making an update tool won't share it's source, legal or not:

1: If you are a raider, it is advantageous to have more advanced tech than the competition. Results bring in recruits, and unfortunately that has led to cheating. Losing the tool advantage means that there's little reason to join the big organizations outside of training, and having a group to consistently raid with.
2: The mass distribution of an advanced and easy to use update tool would completely annihilate any chances defenders had against tag raids because everyone and their dog would be raid-enabled, and tracking who's raiding what would become a complete nightmare. This sounds like an overwhelming advantage until you remember that it means raiders will be competing against eachother more than defenders.
3: If an open source tool is released, any and all holds any organization is holding comes under threat from a million angles. TBR and DEN are successful because natives don't have the know-how to attack their holds.

There's little problem with altering the request rate of open source tools (as if you make too many API or HTTP requests you get locked out anyway), but overall, releasing a tool of the likes of predator in open source format would benefit absolutely nobody but those who want to watch the R/D world implode in on itself.



So if I wrote a legal predator clone and open sourced it, I could end raiding forever? Do you promise?

Perhaps you should read what AR posted instead? He said if an open source version of Predator was released, everyone would be raid enabled. This means there would be even more groups ready to raid your region on a daily basis, and you are likely to run in to that one group who has enough patience to finally destroy the region .

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The old wildlife pen pal
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Postby The old wildlife pen pal » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:20 pm

Aurum Rider wrote:TL;DR The year is 20xx, everyone has access to a raiding tool that can give them update times accurate within 10 seconds, so waiting an update to raid your enemy's raid is now the only viable strategy. The R/D metagame is now completely based on pouring money into stamps and trying to convince people to endorse you instead of the other faction.

TBH, this sounds like what we've had since stamps came out. Not everyone had a tool, granted, but everyone could quite easily time an accurate jump.

Down with update! :twisted:

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Aurum Rider
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Postby Aurum Rider » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:58 pm

Natapoc wrote:So if I wrote a legal predator clone and open sourced it, I could end raiding forever? Do you promise?


Aurum Rider wrote:TL;DR The year is 20xx, everyone has access to a raiding tool that can give them update times accurate within 10 seconds, so waiting an update to raid your enemy's raid is now the only viable strategy. The R/D metagame is now completely based on pouring money into stamps and trying to convince people to endorse you instead of the other faction.
Captain in Chief - Danger Zone - Married to Ambroscus Koth
20XX is now!

Aurum Rider wrote:The year is 20xx, everyone has access to a raiding tool that can give them update times accurate within 10 seconds, so waiting an update to raid your enemy's raid is now the only viable strategy.

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Jersey Republic
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jersey Republic » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:12 am

Den is so annoying, they treat the natives like filth and just boast about making someone spend an extra hour refounding a region. This is a game about ruling a nation after all
i don't really RP on forums, no need for political stances either

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Pierconium
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Postby Pierconium » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:19 am

Jersey Republic wrote:Den is so annoying, they treat the natives like filth and just boast about making someone spend an extra hour refounding a region. This is a game about ruling a nation after all

If it is only about the nation, then the region is irrelevant, correct?
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ROM
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Postby ROM » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:38 am

Jersey Republic wrote:Den is so annoying, they treat the natives like filth and just boast about making someone spend an extra hour refounding a region. This is a game about ruling a nation after all

How does it take an hour to refound a region? Plan it right before it updates, and you can do it in like a minute.
Author of SC Resolution #186 Commend Travelling Region

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Twelvsquare
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Postby Twelvsquare » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:43 am

As a member of DEN, I can see through both sides. It is annoying how they boast about everything they do, and they really don't care about the new members. (I was following directions, but they decided to cry about something, I don't know.)

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We Are Not the NSA
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Postby We Are Not the NSA » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:55 am

Twelvsquare wrote:As a member of DEN, I can see through both sides. It is annoying how they boast about everything they do, and they really don't care about the new members. (I was following directions, but they decided to cry about something, I don't know.)

What are you talking about?
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Jersey Republic
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Postby Jersey Republic » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:33 pm

Sorry about my salt DEN, I'll just leave you to what you want
i don't really RP on forums, no need for political stances either

Just here to have fun

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The Will of Kane
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Will of Kane » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:33 pm

We Are Not the NSA wrote:
Twelvsquare wrote:As a member of DEN, I can see through both sides. It is annoying how they boast about everything they do, and they really don't care about the new members. (I was following directions, but they decided to cry about something, I don't know.)

What are you talking about?

Good question.

Enabling an open source tool release would be horrible, imagine every kid who has a grudge against a region somewhere for some terrible thing that was done to them. How often do those kinds of requests come in?
"So and so was mean to me can you please raid him."
Genuine raiders of the current kind would become a minority.

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Aurum Rider
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Postby Aurum Rider » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:09 pm

The Will of Kane wrote:Genuine raiders of the current kind would become a minority.


I was a raider before it was cool.
Captain in Chief - Danger Zone - Married to Ambroscus Koth
20XX is now!

Aurum Rider wrote:The year is 20xx, everyone has access to a raiding tool that can give them update times accurate within 10 seconds, so waiting an update to raid your enemy's raid is now the only viable strategy.

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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:53 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:I know it's far too early to be asking these kind of questions, but I'm going to do it anyway, do you have a rough idea how long it might take for the investigation to conclude?


I could give a date and time, but I'd be like the Windows File Copy Dialog.


So, no, not really.


C'mon Blat even my Windows update lets me know if it's going to be a week or a month :P ...Sure it may sit on 100% for an hour, but still....
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The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
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Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

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Exxosia
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Postby Exxosia » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:55 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:
Exxosia wrote:A report system that matches an IP address to a raider. So anyone making a nation with that IP will be labeled a raider. Then they have to get a special, direct permission from someone in the control branches of even an open region to move there once labeled.

Wouldn't work. IPs alone are extremely disposable.

And once again, how do you draw the line between a raid, an internal coup, an internal coup with external support, inter-regional politicking, a long-term sleeper operation, and so on?

You don't, those are all dick moves and get dealt with the same way.

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Reploid Productions
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Postby Reploid Productions » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:05 pm

Exxosia wrote:
Reploid Productions wrote:Wouldn't work. IPs alone are extremely disposable.

And once again, how do you draw the line between a raid, an internal coup, an internal coup with external support, inter-regional politicking, a long-term sleeper operation, and so on?

You don't, those are all dick moves and get dealt with the same way.

In other words, what we're already doing.
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The Will of Kane
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Will of Kane » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:01 am

Exxosia wrote:
Reploid Productions wrote:Wouldn't work. IPs alone are extremely disposable.

And once again, how do you draw the line between a raid, an internal coup, an internal coup with external support, inter-regional politicking, a long-term sleeper operation, and so on?

You don't, those are all dick moves and get dealt with the same way.


Ahhh, the balanced approach- 'Dick Moves' get punished. How refreshing.

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Lyra and Bon Bon
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Lyra and Bon Bon » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:52 am

Ahhh, the balanced approach- 'Dick Moves' get punished. How refreshing.[/quote]

Well, I would have to say the current system of 'Raiders get considerable advantages, and no-one is allowed to op out of raiding' seems to not work for a lot of people; other then the raiders of course. When I started NS, I had never heard of raiding; now I get spam messages probably once a week from raiding groups looking for members.

I suppose the rise in the popularity is not too surprising. When your only options in NS are to be either a dick or a pussy. Most people will choose to be the one screwing the other over. Which again, is why those not wanting to participate in raiding need more effective tools then the current 'Lock your region down and stagnate' and 'Hope to hell your founder never quits'.

Right now, making 'dick moves' are you are putting it, gets you rewarded by NationStates; now how balanced do you consider that?

I find that pretty much everyone thinks a system is incredibly fair and not needing any adjustment or changes when it is currently skewed in their favor.

Personally I find mandatory player participation in raiding by nations/regions simply because some players find that griefing others to be fun for them to be quite unfair.

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