Just got invaded by DEN

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I'm coming in late, but there are my 2^10 cents.

If you are going to rule predator illegal because Halcones developed it, and is DOS, I am okay, but that is where it should stop. Ruling it as an illegal script, however, is what I would object to. I find this concerning, because in truth, Predator is essentially just a sheet with advanced search functions, and a variance calculator.

I have no issue banning predator, and I think it should be banned, but at the same time it worries me that a sufficiently talented raider with a sheet, or a programming-oriented raider who developed a tool of their own (I.E, Me), could be puppetswept/dos on suspicion of using an 'illegal script.'

If Moderation/Administration wants to ban predator/elite/what have you, I'd like to hear
What rules it's violating/Why they are banning it
How they aim to enforce the ban
How they will differentiate predator users from raider using legitimate resources (sheets/manual triggers/other tools)

Those may be the user-evident functions, but are you sure that's all it's doing, and how it's doing it is all entirely legal? You know more about code than I do.

I would agree with your request that, if the tool itself independent of it's source is illegal, exactly how that is so is made evident to us. Currently, it stands largely alone, but down the road someone may make something similar, and it'd be good to be sure we're not accidentally hitting the same pitfall y'all are seeing here.

[ADST World]

Why are you so certain of this?

What are your thoughts on an opt in wart system, in an attempt to reduce the number of raiders?

[Reploid Productions]

Why are you so certain of this?

What are your thoughts on an opt in wart system, in an attempt to reduce the number of raiders?

Wouldn't work. We're not going to add an actual war system, that's been the boss' line from day one. And it wouldn't do squat toward reducing the number of raiders; although raiding functions as a sort of warlike system in the game, what most raiders want isn't war, they want to swoop into a region in sufficient force to take the WA delegate seat.

[McMannia Squared]

Why are you so certain of this?

What are your thoughts on an opt in wart system, in an attempt to reduce the number of raiders?

Would not work in the slightest. Part of the fun of raiding is the thrill you get from doing something others don't approve of. Removing that aspect from the equation ruins the fun for those participating in the raiding. Adding in an opt in war system would be like hosting a prom after party in the school gym where the dancing is supervised and the only drink is sunny d. No one will care and people will just keep doing what they normally do. Nation states 2 (don't know who here remembers that mess) tried to do a war system where people could go to war with each other and it did nothing.

[Aurum Rider]

Those may be the user-evident functions, but are you sure that's all it's doing, and how it's doing it is all entirely legal? You know more about code than I do.

I would agree with your request that, if the tool itself independent of it's source is illegal, exactly how that is so is made evident to us. Currently, it stands largely alone, but down the road someone may make something similar, and it'd be good to be sure we're not accidentally hitting the same pitfall y'all are seeing here.

Without asking Halcones about it, I know that Predator only interacts with NS insofar as downloading the nation and region data dumps, and making API calls for world data. I haven't had access to it since around august last year, so I can't speak for it now, but unless Halcones decided to implement some crazy botnet stuff into Predator it's entirely script legal.

[RiderSyl]

Aurum, does Predator still use a Halcones-made Python script to authorize players to use the program, and send feedback on its use to Halcones PC, all using the user's MAC Address, as it did in TBR preDOS?

I don't know about Predator's script legality on its own, but the program still innately interacting with Halc would be a serious problem.

[Marselesk]

Aurum, does Predator still use a Halcones-made Python script to authorize players to use the program, and send feedback on its use to Halcones PC, all using the user's MAC Address, as it did in TBR preDOS?

I don't know about Predator's script legality on its own, but the program still innately interacting with Halc would be a serious problem.

As far as i'm aware, Halc is still the only person who is able to grant people access to the tool so that they may use it. But i would agree with Aurum that the script itself, discarding it's DoS maker, isn't in violation of the NS rules. That's if Halc hasn't done something crazy, which i honestly doubt, but it could be the case. Currently though, that seems to be the lesser problem compared to the script being managed and distributed by a DoS player.

[Queen Yuno]

^What they said.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Y'all say that but...

As mentioned previously, the initial results from the investigation are very heavily leaning toward Predator actually violating the scripting rules, and having done so prior to Halc's DOS. It's pretty much inevitable that the tool will be ruled illegal as a result.

And frankly, considering the only people who know the full extent of how the program interacts with the site with certainty are Halc and the site, I'm inclined to trust the site on this one.

Script Rules


This rule describes how you may use automated tools (e.g. scripts, macros, and browser add-ons) to interact with the regular NationStates website. (The NationStates API has its own rules.)

It is acceptable to use a tool that merely modifies how pages look to you. For example, a script that adds particular buttons in your browser when viewing other people's nation pages is fine. Similarly, any kind of information-gathering script is acceptable, subject to the rate limits below.

It is illegal to use a tool to automatically cause something in the gameworld to change, other than your own nation. Examples include moving regions, sending a telegram to another nation, banning a nation from a region, creating a nation, endorsing another nation, and anything else that generates a Happenings line in a region, the World Assembly, or a nation other than your own. These are referred to below as "restricted actions."

A tool is working "automatically" if it executes a restricted action in any way other than by immediately responding to a user's mouse click (or similar input) at the ratio of one click to one action. For example, a tool that sends ban requests to the server at five-second intervals, regardless of user input, is executing restricted actions automatically, and is illegal. However, a tool that makes ban buttons appear on pages where they aren't normally present is legal, as this requires a user's click to change anything in the gameworld.

A tool may never execute restricted actions simultaneously. It must wait for the completion of each command--a complete response from the NationStates server--before issuing the next one. A tool should never spawn background processes to enable multiple simultaneous server connections that each perform a restricted action.

You may use a tool to execute actions that only affect your own nation, such as answering issues or changing custom fields.

API

NationStates offers an API, which provides a faster, more efficient interface for many scripts. It is governed by its own rules; these Script Rules do not apply to any API request. The main reason you would not want to use the API is that it currently doesn't offer a good way to do things as a logged-in nation: it is mainly a way to collect data, not execute actions.

Rate Limits

Scripts must send no more than 10 requests per minute.

Scripts are completely banned on the forum ( http://forum.nationstates.net ).

If you wish to use a script to gather information from NationStates, consider the official API, rather than scraping raw HTML pages. If there's data you can only get from the HTML, we will probably add it to the API if you ask. The API is able to handle scripts more efficiently and has much higher rate limits (currently 10X as high).

Sending Telegrams

To send telegrams via a script, please use the new Telegrams API. Tools & scripts should not interfact with the HTML telegrams page (i.e. '/page=telegrams') unless they are only adding minor functionality. Tools that send telegrams in a fully or near-fully automated manner must use the Telegrams API.

Script Authors

It is illegal to distribute a tool that breaks game rules when used in its primary, default, or intended manner.

I doubt they're being nitpicky about the rules as well. Who knows what it was, breaking the HTML scrape rate limit, something else, I have no idea, but it sounds to me like they're seeing evidence of it breaking one of those rules pretty solidly.

[Queen Yuno]

Well, that's a scary thought. Please let us know the exact details of which script rule it violated if it did.

[The old wildlife pen pal]

Yes. Its true that only really different features of Predator when compared to sheet-technology are better visual user interface, better target filtering/searching options, and automatic raid reporting system under trigger's control. Auto-reports are saved to archive folders in drop box. Sheets are 'Predator-lites' in all other relevant ways.

Hopefully I have understood Cora here correctly when he says that Predator creates a sheet (with targets and times I assume) that someone can use to trigger/raid with. If this is the case, and if Predator if ruled illegal, is there any way to tell whether these sheets - created outside the script rules - are being used, or otherwise prevent their use (that doesn't rely on player honesty)?

[RiderSyl]

Yes. Its true that only really different features of Predator when compared to sheet-technology are better visual user interface, better target filtering/searching options, and automatic raid reporting system under trigger's control. Auto-reports are saved to archive folders in drop box. Sheets are 'Predator-lites' in all other relevant ways.

Hopefully I have understood Cora here correctly when he says that Predator creates a sheet (with targets and times I assume) that someone can use to trigger/raid with. If this is the case, and if Predator if ruled illegal, is there any way to tell whether these sheets - created outside the script rules - are being used, or otherwise prevent their use (that doesn't rely on player honesty)?

You misunderstood Cora here. Predator can auto-generate a text file that serves as a "report" of how the raid went while using it. The sheets were used to trigger and raid with before the existence of Predator, and they used Microsoft Excel 2010. The sheets don't break the script rules.

[The old wildlife pen pal]

You misunderstood Cora here. Predator can auto-generate a text file that serves as a "report" of how the raid went while using it. The sheets were used to trigger and raid with before the existence of Predator, and they used Microsoft Excel 2010. The sheets don't break the script rules.

I see, thanks for clearing that up then. I figured the sheets meant by Cora were similar to the sheets you described above.

[Cora III]

All relevant about Predator and sheets are said already. Programmatically they've been always legal. I also GHR'd to mods (along with some angry Cora statements) what I know about tools and their legal functioning, their legal design principle, Halc's legal rights to his own legal work etc.

I also admitted where I've myself broken rules related to Predator, its upgrades, long term cooperation with DOS-player etc. without any shame. I won't beg mercy. Nobody else need to bother for me. I regret nothing and I'm happy when seeing recent uprising in interest toward independent tool-making. That's healthy thing.

If there are some lesson here: its then that we can always adapt. Admins try kill now entire raider subculture, the task which is doomed to be failure from its beginnings and base assumptions. Gameplayers aren't enemy of NS. Why they're treated like such goes far above my mountain. They've systematically DOS'd exactly those ones who could give most for the game's development.

Good luck! o/

[YoriZ]

Poor old raiders, I almost start to feel sorry for you.
Natives not subduing to your demands.
Admins trying to kill the raider subculture and all.
Phew, hope you still have some fun in this game.

[RiderSyl]

Don't worry.
We will still have fun in this game.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Halc's legal rights to his own legal work etc.

Except Halc didn't write it, Frak did.

Poor old raiders, I almost start to feel sorry for you.
Natives not subduing to your demands.
Admins trying to kill the raider subculture and all.
Phew, hope you still have some fun in this game.

You know, with comments like that, you kind of bring your problems on your region.

[Cora III]

Haha...

I once leaked P. to Frak (after his DOS), and Halc (before his DOS) forgave me that because my act effectively helped test P's tool security.

That happened over year ago already, and isn't secret of any kind. If Frak managed reverse-engineer P. after all then I can understand admins worries, yes.

[RiderSyl]

I once leaked P. to Frak (after his DOS), and Halc (before his DOS) forgave me that because my act effectively helped test P's tool security.

To be fair, it's a possibility what you're talking about happened when pre-DOS Halc was working with post-DOS Frak, and that Halc was not honest with you.

[The Silver Sentinel]

I once leaked P. to Frak (after his DOS), and Halc (before his DOS) forgave me that because my act effectively helped test P's tool security.

To be fair, it's a possibility what you're talking about happened when pre-DOS Halc was working with post-DOS Frak, and that Halc was not honest with you.

I would agree that this is likely how it went down. Halc had a well known history of working with Frak after Frak was punted.

[Cora III]

I have no single reasons show distrust for Halcones. That's not the case with Frak. And... ultimately it's irrelevant who coded originally P. as it still gave platform for me (and many others) to really try develop interesting R/D...

I never asked about issues irrelevant for gameplay. I didn't need to know.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Admins try kill now entire raider subculture

Admin's enforcing the rules. Raiding existed before Predator, and it will exist after.

[Cora III]

Admins try kill now entire raider subculture

Admin's enforcing the rules. Raiding existed before Predator, and it will exist after.

Methods of enforcements may need some corrections, though... And, Yes it will exist there after.

(Happy Cora. For that EWS and Syl have that minimum level raider classiness after all, they at last ceased to try "enforce" rulings against me by themselves, in moderation threads. Thx! )

[Eluvatar]

After an examination of assorted evidence, I can say with confidence that Predator or Update tool violates the rate limitation and user agent script rules.

1. The tool does not set a user agent identifying itself, which violates the API Terms of use.

2. The tool greatly exceeds the rate limits set in the Script Rules for non-API requests, making requests at 5-10 times the permitted speed.

Generally, these kinds of violations are considered to be relatively minor, and are addressed by simply asking the script author to correct the script's behavior and follow the rules. This has been effective in the past.

In this case, however, the script does not properly identify itself, making it harder to track, and appears purposely designed to avoid both API rate-limiting and the 28-second API Happenings delay. (World happenings appear on https://www.nationstates.net/page=activity more or less immediately but are delayed from appearing in the API's world happenings shard for 28 seconds, to limit the gameplay advantage scripters can get from it.)

By simultaneously avoiding the API in this manner and breaking the regular site's rate limit, the tool delivers a Gameplay advantage over players without this script and scripters who follow the rules. Were the script to follow the rules, it would not be able to give increasingly-precise predictions of update time in the seconds approaching the target region's update.

In summary, the tool not only breaks site rules, but appears to be explicitly designed to do so.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Ah, well that's fine then. No effect on other tools we've got or may explore, beyond "don't break the written rules." It'd still even be possible to make something that gets progressively more accurate - just, as you said, not quite as much as Predator did.