Just got invaded by DEN

[We Are Not the NSA]

Isn't that already the case in the current situation, though? It's not particularly difficult to opt out of the r/d game, as has exhaustively been said.

DEN members, what would be your thoughts here? My understanding is that you raid because there is no war system, right?

Raided nations, why are your thoughts? Would you prefer an opt-in war system over the raiding system?

It would entirely depend upon the specifics of such a system and how many people decided to opt in.

And once again, how do you draw the line between a raid, an internal coup, an internal coup with external support, inter-regional politicking, a long-term sleeper operation, and so on?

Well, granted I have been only playing for about three years or so now, but I have yet to even once run into any type of regional coup or inter-regional politicking that came about from a flood of external nations flooding into a region and taking control.

Like a previous poster had said, actions against this is rather easy to implement. From as simple to as flagging a region that repeatedly does this action as 'a raider' nation. Once in a blue moon a single region is politicking probably, but say several times a week and in a different region every time? Not that difficult to tell the difference between internal power struggles and raiding to be honest; not sure why you are making it out to be.[/quote]
Here is one of the main issues I see with this ridiculous idea of a system: is it right to punish a nation for the actions of their region, and is it right to punish a region for the actions of individual members? The way I see it we either mark regions as raiders (which would punish the nations that are in the region but do not raid), we mark nations as raiders, which is as easy to get around as being banned from the WA (make a new nation), or we mark a player (which would be an incredibly far leap from "this is not at all illegal" to "you are a pariah in the eyes of this website"). And what would be the point of marking out any of the options? Would we be banned?

Additionally, an occupation an a coup with external support are extremely similar events, if not exactly the same. A long standing member of the region takes control of the delegacy and another region's army comes in to support them.

Or something as easy an instituting a WA delegate cooldown upon entering a new region; a day, three days, a week, or whatever. That would seriously hamper the ability of raiders rolling in and immediately taking over.

But just like with influence, the SC, Liberations, ROs and the new delegate rules we would find a way to either bypass the impediment or turn it as a weapon against natives and defenders. Delegate cooldowns would harm defenders just as much as raiders, because it would make already difficult liberation proccess even more difficult, but it would do nothing against occupations... actually the first thing would only make the second easier.

There are many tools for a region to use to defend themselves against raiding, and almost all of them have detrimental effets on the region. Password locking does stop raiding, but it also stops any new members from joining the region, which equals stagnation for the region. As soon as a password is handed out to any prospective new member you just opened the door to it being quickly passed around to anyone wanting to enter (Raiders). A one-time use password would perhaps also be an option against this, but that has never been implemented either.

Emphasis mine/fixed it. Passwording with a foundered region is stupid: it is far more worth it for you to risk getting tagged than hampering your own growth. Passwording founderless regions is smart, because recruitment should not be a priority for them.

Also, the claim that there are very few tools for regional defense is only made more laughable by the fact that you neglected to mention most of said tools.

The fact is that the raiders have a very distinct advantage, plus the backing of Max Barry and the NationStates staff. Pretending that it is somehow the fault of regions that they are so easy to raid is rather laughable with regions being handicapped with minimal defensive capabilities, that more-or-less hinge on having an active founder, and no real 'opt out' system.

As we have covered for about the tenth time in this thread, there is an opt-out system: non-executive delegates. The question is whether this is the system that should be in place.

I will state again that I do not see why those who decide to play as raiders and enjoy destroying what others have built up in NationStates gets to take precedent over those who just enjoy playing.

And we've had this argument several times in this thread too, and I do not want to participate in it again.

[ADST World]

DEN members, what would be your thoughts here? My understanding is that you raid because there is no war system, right?

Raided nations, why are your thoughts? Would you prefer an opt-in war system over the raiding system?

It would entirely depend upon the specifics of such a system and how many people decided to opt in.

The idea is that people can invest part of their defence economy into training soldiers and buying weapons, then can fight each other. The economic segment is to limi the endless construction of weapons, and a leaderboard system could be implemented, with badges similar to those already used.

[RiderSyl]

The idea is that people can invest part of their defence economy into training soldiers and buying weapons, then can fight each other. The economic segment is to limi the endless construction of weapons, and a leaderboard system could be implemented, with badges similar to those already used.

That would sound like an okay way to pass time in-between raiding regions with my fellow Hawks.

[ChingisOtchigin]

That would sound like an okay way to pass time in-between raiding regions with my fellow Hawks.

Well said. I raid because I can and I like it, not because I want to be MLG warrior. A war system won't change the fact that we (raiders) will continue to raid.

[Souseiseki]

Am I the only person that finds it really odd that the guys whose sole purpose in this game is to harass and annoy others ("But the vandalism is easy to reverse with X tool!" "But the mods have our back!", please, we've heard it all before) have become infamous throughout the forums for having uncharacteristically thin skins and being very very quick to go to Moderation whenever someone makes a post they feel might hurt their feelings or minorly inconvenience them? (Or perhaps the propensity to use Moderation to their advantage and realizing they have their back is some sort of clever meta-trolling, even though I am loathe to forbid they would for even a single second consider deliberately annoying someone.

Now, I understand there is already someone in the process of reporting this post (I do not consider this is not an admission of known rule-breaking, rather, it is another extension of hypersensitivity) but I do need to wonder if you've ever considered things like this yourselves? I know you're aware that you are, as a rule, how shall we say, not very popular outside your own circles, and I by no means wish to imply that rulebreaking should not be reported promptly, but have you ever stopped to think about how silly the whole thing looks? "Someone said something slightly risque to the guys that just ruined a region, oh dear, this will not stand!"

Anyway, while we're discussing the finer points of raiding, I remember you guys saying something before about how you have an IRC script that checks endorsements, right? That's how you find easy targets? I'm interested because I'm not entirely sure whether a script that semi-regularly uses API calls to keep track of endorsements would be legal or not. Not sure if this is the right place for a question like this, but this does seem like the right place for DEN talk/raiding mechanics talk. (E; To be clear this isn't a "get you guys in trouble question", I'm curious for my own purposes.)

Namaste and please stop attacking people that want nothing to do with you and shitting all over their work. Like, come on.

[We Are Not the NSA]

Am I the only person that finds it really odd that the guys whose sole purpose in this game is to harass and annoy others ("But the vandalism is easy to reverse with X tool!" "But the mods have our back!", please, we've heard it all before) have become infamous throughout the forums for having uncharacteristically thin skins and being very very quick to go to Moderation whenever someone makes a post they feel might hurt their feelings or minorly inconvenience them? (Or perhaps the propensity to use Moderation to their advantage and realizing they have their back is some sort of clever meta-trolling, even though I am loathe to forbid they would for even a single second consider deliberately annoying someone.

Now, I understand there is already someone in the process of reporting this post (I do not consider this is not an admission of known rule-breaking, rather, it is another extension of hypersensitivity) but I do need to wonder if you've ever considered things like this yourselves? I know you're aware that you are, as a rule, how shall we say, not very popular outside your own circles, and I by no means wish to imply that rulebreaking should not be reported promptly, but have you ever stopped to think about how silly the whole thing looks? "Someone said something slightly risque to the guys that just ruined a region, oh dear, this will not stand!"

Anyway, while we're discussing the finer points of raiding, I remember you guys saying something before about how you have an IRC script that checks endorsements, right? That's how you find easy targets? I'm interested because I'm not entirely sure whether a script that semi-regularly uses API calls to keep track of endorsements would be legal or not. Not sure if this is the right place for a question like this, but this does seem like the right place for DEN talk/raiding mechanics talk. (E; To be clear this isn't a "get you guys in trouble question", I'm curious for my own purposes.)

Namaste and please stop attacking people that want nothing to do with you and shitting all over their work. Like, come on.

Considering the fact that we've been openly using it for years, I'd assume that it's legal. If I recall correctly, the general rule with scripts is that they are okay as long as they cannot affect any player other than yourself. So scripts that answer issues, login to different nations or acquire information are legal, but anything that causes a nation to move regions, endorse anyone, or send telegrams are illegal. I'm not a moderator though, and I'm not an expert on scripts, so I could be wrong.

[ChingisOtchigin]

Namaste and please stop attacking people that want nothing to do with you and shitting all over their work. Like, come on.

Thanks for the long post. Considering I could sum it all up in 3 sentences, I'll reply in 3 sentences too.
No we don't think we look silly.
No we don't use illegal tools.
No, we won't stop.

[Cora III]

Few words on DEN tagging protocol and it's purpose. Unlike differing approach to same issues concerning tagging and tags, DEN's protocol is evolved (and planned) for:

- to have high uniformity in format and appearance as 'trade mark'
- clearly defined standard format with relevant links and information on it
- to way credit participating raider troopers
- as mean to check reliability and provide a control method to follow troopers' willingness to do work for the organisation, particularly newcomers'
- provide easy tagging method that doesn't require high levels of artistic classiness (read: time to do) on myriads regional WFE
- ensure enough RL neutral standard to all participants' to follow, for to avoid internal schisms and possible representation problems for the org. (No! average DEN tagger isn't nazi... Pol pot fan, Furry pony) associated to more classy and artistic approaches
- to give image of organized military hierarchy
- to minimize possibilities to do illegalities and rule breaking by troopers (mostly for newcomers)
- overall tagging efficiency in situation where hundreds regions tend get targetted in very short time periods. DEN Corporal Y or Sergeant X plays the game for higher causes and for more complex aims then for an artistic visual quality of a WFE of a native dump.

DEN staff members can add/correct, elaborate more about this, but even customization isn't strictly prohibited if it follows general guidelines of the protocol.

Anyhow, after 200 tags done, typical trooper doesn't think a tag as piece of art, just part of micro level duty for the macro level whole.

[Eluvatar]

Considering the fact that we've been openly using it for years, I'd assume that it's legal. If I recall correctly, the general rule with scripts is that they are okay as long as they cannot affect any player other than yourself. So scripts that answer issues, login to different nations or acquire information are legal, but anything that causes a nation to move regions, endorse anyone, or send telegrams are illegal. I'm not a moderator though, and I'm not an expert on scripts, so I could be wrong.

That's right.

Scripts may:

1. Use the API (as long as they give a useragent and you don't try to evade the ratelimits)
2. Gather information with or without logging in to a nation by HTML scraping pages (so long as you don't fetch more than 10 pages a minute, and make sure to finish getting a page before you ask for another)
2. Log into nations and do things which A) do not involve telegrams and B) do not create WA or region happenings. (Nation happenings that don't show up elsewhere are fine).

One specific action that is illegal but is not necessarily obvious is applying to join the WA: that creates a happening on a WA page, not just your nation page.

Anyway, while we're discussing the finer points of raiding, I remember you guys saying something before about how you have an IRC script that checks endorsements, right? That's how you find easy targets? I'm interested because I'm not entirely sure whether a script that semi-regularly uses API calls to keep track of endorsements would be legal or not. Not sure if this is the right place for a question like this, but this does seem like the right place for DEN talk/raiding mechanics talk. (E; To be clear this isn't a "get you guys in trouble question", I'm curious for my own purposes.)

Regarding checking endorsement levels in a specific region, you may find this useful. Unfortunately, I've found that getting all its dependencies set up can be a bit difficult on other systems. At some point I may have time to improve that. At the very least the code itself should be helpful to someone writing their own. (Note, the linked program is not an official NationStates resource, and is not guaranteed to work or be accurate. There is a known problem whereby the API may be in error regarding which nations are in the WA, which may affect roughly 0.1% of nations.)

[Cora III]

One specific action that is illegal but is not necessarily obvious is applying to join the WA: that creates a happening on a WA page, not just your nation page.

This is especially important for raider updater switchers (and for everyone else), because it isn't obvious. All kind bots and scripts that would make switching faster by automatization of necessary phases related to WA-membership are prohibited.

There are some legal tricks, though.

[Flanderlion]

Considering the fact that we've been openly using it for years, I'd assume that it's legal. If I recall correctly, the general rule with scripts is that they are okay as long as they cannot affect any player other than yourself. So scripts that answer issues, login to different nations or acquire information are legal, but anything that causes a nation to move regions, endorse anyone, or send telegrams are illegal. I'm not a moderator though, and I'm not an expert on scripts, so I could be wrong.

That's right.

Scripts may:

1. Use the API (as long as they give a useragent and you don't try to evade the ratelimits)
2. Gather information with or without logging in to a nation by HTML scraping pages (so long as you don't fetch more than 10 pages a minute, and make sure to finish getting a page before you ask for another)
2. Log into nations and do things which A) do not involve telegrams and B) do not create WA or region happenings. (Nation happenings that don't show up elsewhere are fine).

One specific action that is illegal but is not necessarily obvious is applying to join the WA: that creates a happening on a WA page, not just your nation page.

Anyway, while we're discussing the finer points of raiding, I remember you guys saying something before about how you have an IRC script that checks endorsements, right? That's how you find easy targets? I'm interested because I'm not entirely sure whether a script that semi-regularly uses API calls to keep track of endorsements would be legal or not. Not sure if this is the right place for a question like this, but this does seem like the right place for DEN talk/raiding mechanics talk. (E; To be clear this isn't a "get you guys in trouble question", I'm curious for my own purposes.)

Regarding checking endorsement levels in a specific region, you may find this useful. Unfortunately, I've found that getting all its dependencies set up can be a bit difficult on other systems. At some point I may have time to improve that. At the very least the code itself should be helpful to someone writing their own. (Note, the linked program is not an official NationStates resource, and is not guaranteed to work or be accurate. There is a known problem whereby the API may be in error regarding which nations are in the WA, which may affect roughly 0.1% of nations.)

The applying to join thing was a fairly recent addition/rewording to the script rules in fairness, I still maintain that it was technically legal before that minor rewording thing of the script rules, but this isn't really place for the now moot debate.

@Cora - he was meaning for applying (set up) rather than for actual switching itself, which has always been illegal in the script rules.

[Cora III]

@Cora - he was meaning for applying (set up) rather than for actual switching itself, which has always been illegal in the script rules.

Thanks for clarification. I meant something like: You can have better placed button for each action related to WA /resignation/application, but you cannot have button that resign, move puppet, re-apply it by single click on a NS-page, for example..

Sorry about the split to the topic. Underline here: Raiders try generally play by the rules, and what may look as an unnatural and illegal action, is likely only a result of continuous practice of legal patterns in use of basic features of the game.

EDIT: Typo.

[YoriZ]

Am I the only person that finds it really odd that the guys whose sole purpose in this game is to harass and annoy others ("But the vandalism is easy to reverse with X tool!" "But the mods have our back!", please, we've heard it all before) have become infamous throughout the forums for having uncharacteristically thin skins and being very very quick to go to Moderation whenever someone makes a post they feel might hurt their feelings or minorly inconvenience them? (Or perhaps the propensity to use Moderation to their advantage and realizing they have their back is some sort of clever meta-trolling, even though I am loathe to forbid they would for even a single second consider deliberately annoying someone.
...

These are the people that usually are bossing other people around and suppressing messages at the RMB they don´t like. Not having these tools at the forum makes them look for other means to regulate people that do not share their point of view.

About the thin line of rule breaking scripts used by raiders, I just bring the TBR scandal into remembrance.

I truly hope the game mechanics will be changed in favor of native nations in regions whose founders have cted, the sc custodian option seems appealing to me.

[RiderSyl]

About the thin line of rule breaking scripts used by raiders, I just bring the TBR scandal into remembrance.

The TBR scandal wasn't a situation where raiders crossed a thin line. It was where Halcones and Bob Moran worked with a Delete-on-Sight player to run intentionally illegal recruiting scripts.
They pissed on the line, jumped headfirst over the line, then rode 100 miles past the line.

Then, the rest of raiderdom condemned them for it, because believe it or not, raiders don't like running afoul of the rules.

[Sedgistan]

So no-one is using Halcones'/Frak's scripts any more, or communicating with either of them?

[Cora III]

So no-one is using Halcones'/Frak's scripts any more, or communicating with either of them?

Lol, Sedge.

As far as I know, everybody who get access to use Halc's legal tools/spreadsheets (or versions of them), and that's not a secret of any kind to anybody spent few weeks in GP R/D.

Illegal ones? I think moderation/admins would know that better and before then any of us players ever can.

Personally, I communicate with Halc as I've tested/tester of his other game projects, not relevant/related to NS anyhow. Which is not illegal by the NS rules. Is it? (NS mod is still welcomed to watch over Cora-Halc public chit-chats to my little off-sites, where rule breaking isn't enforced, like often can be read between lines of various comments)

Old bludgeon weapons doesn't work after their initial use, neither.

[RiderSyl]

So no-one is using Halcones'/Frak's scripts any more, or communicating with either of them?

DEN still seems to be using some of Halcones' raiding tools. I don't believe them to be illegal. As for communicating with either of them, we just saw an instance where a raider was communicating with Frak and fessed up to it via GHR, and I know for a fact I've seen a few raiders that have been in contact with Halcones and Bob post-DOS. So, there are people communicating with them, unfortunately.

[Cora III]

Syl, I understand what is basic dilemma with legal tools made by DOS-players. NS-rules have no jurisdiction over DOS-player's copyrights to their own intellectual property and their distribution. If something is legal by scripting rules of NS, and beyond direct control of NS Administration, it is non-issue for them jurisdictically. Particularly when the site itself is coded in way that it is possible make legally legal tools.
There are no such as and cannot ever be equation '=' with cases of 1) legal tool made by DOS player is illegal contra 2) legal tool is legal by made legal player, as playing NS isn't necessary requirement for tool making at all.
Also, copyright owner of legal tool can freely delegate rights to use his/hers tools to others totally regardless is he/she DOS'd from the game or not, and that doesn't happen in the site itself.
Tool provider can be 3rd party not related anyway to NS gameplaying.

Even more complex it goes if DOS'd player wasn't only one who contributed to creation of legal tool.

[Carpe Felis]

Syl, I understand what is basic dilemma with legal tools made by DOS-players. NS-rules have no jurisdiction over DOS-player's copyrights to their own intellectual property and their distribution. If something is legal by scripting rules of NS, and beyond direct control of NS Administration, it is non-issue for them jurisdictically. Particularly when the site itself is coded in way that it is possible make legally legal tools.
There are no such as and cannot ever be equation '=' with cases of 1) legal tool made by DOS player is illegal contra 2) legal tool is legal by made legal player, as playing NS isn't necessary requirement for tool making at all.
Also, copyright owner of legal tool can freely delegate rights to use his/hers tools to others totally regardless is he/she DOS'd from the game or not, and that doesn't happen in the site itself.
Tool provider can be 3rd party not related anyway to NS gameplaying.

Even more complex it goes if DOS'd player wasn't only one who contributed to creation of legal tool.

How do you know it's a legal tool? Do you have anything other than the assurances of a player who was DOSd for rule breaking to assure you that it's legal?

It would be a shame to see honest players getting caught up in a snare laid by a DOS player similar to what we see with Frak on occasion.

[McMannia Squared]

So no-one is using Halcones'/Frak's scripts any more, or communicating with either of them?

DEN still seems to be using some of Halcones' raiding tools. I don't believe them to be illegal. As for communicating with either of them, we just saw an instance where a raider was communicating with Frak and fessed up to it via GHR, and I know for a fact I've seen a few raiders that have been in contact with Halcones and Bob post-DOS. So, there are people communicating with them, unfortunately.

It was my understanding that the raider in question was involved in more than simply communicating with Frak although he seems to have gotten off easy. As for the legality of tools, at least in my opinion the only way to judge the legality of tools created by a DOS player would be to submit said tools to the mods for examination to ensure no rules are being broken, until then it's just he said she said. Personally I'd just avoid said tools all together but that's just me.

[Cora III]

How do you know it's a legal tool? Do you have anything other than the assurances of a player who was DOSd for rule breaking to assure you that it's legal?

It would be a shame to see honest players getting caught up in a snare laid by a DOS player similar to what we see with Frak on occasion.

That is fair, honest, and serious question.

How I know? The NationStates Raiderdom as a whole have been using these tools/sheets etc. several years now, for roughly 20000 raids/invasions etc. without single complaints about that by NS Administration. As so, its rather easy to come to a safe conclusion that these tools are legal, right?

Other topic is then perspective, feed-back, critisism, and active participation to the tool making process of players that by default want continue to play the game.

[ADST World]

That would sound like an okay way to pass time in-between raiding regions with my fellow Hawks.

Well said. I raid because I can and I like it, not because I want to be MLG warrior. A war system won't change the fact that we (raiders) will continue to raid.

So let me see if I have this right:

1. you don't want a war system.
2. You like raiding others
3. You don't care if it inconveniences others

You do realize that these actions are similar to those of an internet troll, and that beyond that, it is disrespectful, and sometimes just downright cruel, to afflict others with minor troubles, just because it's funny, right?

[Cora III]

You do realize that these actions are similar to those of an internet troll, and that beyond that, it is disrespectful, and sometimes just downright cruel, to afflict others with minor troubles, just because it's funny, right?

That's what Site's FAQ says about disrespect, downright cruelty, and afflictions...

But I keep hearing about invasions.

Some nations craft battles, trading pacts, and more on their regional boards or in forums such as International Incidents. But there's also a type of interregional invasion known as "raiding" or "R/D". This is where organized groups of nations attempt to seize control of regions by moving there en masse and endorsing each other to gain political power. Unlike nations, regions can effectively be captured and destroyed. This isn't common, but isn't unheard of, either.

[McMannia Squared]

Well said. I raid because I can and I like it, not because I want to be MLG warrior. A war system won't change the fact that we (raiders) will continue to raid.

So let me see if I have this right:

1. you don't want a war system.
2. You like raiding others
3. You don't care if it inconveniences others

You do realize that these actions are similar to those of an internet troll, and that beyond that, it is disrespectful, and sometimes just downright cruel, to afflict others with minor troubles, just because it's funny, right?

This is just a suggestion, but what if they add a feature where you can reset your WFE to a prior date, similar to how you can restore your PC to a previous date to reverse damage caused by a virus or system error. Make it easier to restore damage caused by raider activity.

On the other note. I raid because I enjoy it. The comradery, the tactics of it all, and yes the knowledge that my actions are causing people a minor annoyance. I'm honest in who I am and am not ashamed to admit it. At the end of the day this is just a game after all. If people pour their heart and soul into it I salute them, but I also believe that if you really care about something you should take better care to protect it, and for that there are plenty of existing tools.

[Siberian Districts]

You do realize that these actions are similar to those of an internet troll, and that beyond that, it is disrespectful, and sometimes just downright cruel, to afflict others with minor troubles, just because it's funny, right?

Trolling is against the rules. Raiding isn't. I think that's difference enough. Any argument on this probably shouldn't be on this thread