The Osiris Fraternal Order

[Railana]

This was never the Cormac show in the first place, and it certainly isn't now.

Of course it is. If an unelected delegate retains absolute veto power -- and intends to actively use it, unlike in modern Western constitutional monarchies -- then the "Council of Scribes" is nothing more than a puppet legislature. You have all the real power. Own your despotism!

[Tim-Opolis]

The inclusion of Neo Kervoskia and Dalimbar in your government is just fascinating on so many levels.

Especially considering that the whole basis for this "Transition Government" is that Jesus Whale is untrustworthy because a long time ago a region he was in opposed the OFO.

I don't believe we'll be seeing Dalimbar or Neo Kervoskia ascend to the delegacy any time soon, but thank you for the concern.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

Especially considering that the whole basis for this "Transition Government" is that Jesus Whale is untrustworthy because a long time ago a region he was in opposed the OFO.

I don't believe we'll be seeing Dalimbar or Neo Kervoskia ascend to the delegacy any time soon, but thank you for the concern.

I believe you might possibly be completely missing the point.

[Falapatorius]

The difference is obviously that those three members know what's best for Osiris and nobody else does.

Apparently. I certainly don't. Benevolence is confusing.

[Vrij osiris]

Cormac and Koth couped their own December 2013 coup regime because they feared someone else was going to coup their December 2013 coup regime and in doing so have installed into government the people that their December 2013 coup was created to remove.

[Pierconium]

Congratulations to those appointed.

[The Stalker]

Includes the best parts of The Empire as well with Dali and NK!

Well of course, clearly this is all an Empire plot to tighten their hold on Osiris, and why so many feeders choose to remain neutral in the matter, because as us super elites all know most feeders are controlled or heavily influenced by the Empire. Todd's article awhile back was all clever misinformation to cover a data leak.

#IlluminatiConfirmed

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Congratulations to those appointed.

Agreed, good luck to all of you.

[Kyorgia]

A puppet legislature and a cabinet filed with your friends and supports. Wait was this not same thing you accused Jesus Whale of trying to do?
Oh and Cormac what happened to not appointing a predator user for scribe of war? That was so important for you during the elections. As far as I can see Koth was punished during the whole predator incident.

[Plagentine]

wow

[Louisistan]

One could, but one would run the risk of me laughing so hard that Max could here it down in Australia.
Took you long enough to drag us into this.

Actually, TITO took a very heavy-handed approach to the founding of Osiris, basically telling all of NationStates that the birth of Osiran government would be on their terms without any consultation with or input from other parties that had already begun investing in Osiris. In fact, it's my understanding that TITO was openly hostile to others who were taking an interest in Osiris, because some of them were known raiders. TITO then completely abandoned Osiris, to the point that TITO leadership even refused to provide assistance to the Kemetic Republic of Osiris against the July 2013 coup d'etat by The Dourian Embassy, again because Osiris' self-determined alignment and leadership were not acceptable to the ideological absolutists of TITO.

Contrast this with the political foundation of Balder, in which competition between the UDL and Europeia eventually gave way to cooperation not only between them but with others who had shown interest in Balder, and many of the people from the UDL, Europeia, etc., remained involved in Balder and invested in its future. Some of them became more invested in Balder, over the long term, than to the regions that initially brought them into Balder.

You do see very different beginnings for both regions, and you can look at the differences in how they started and see similarities between their first days and their ensuing political trajectories. I don't think it's a stretch to say that TITO could have handled the birth of Osiris better and bears some responsibility for the instability that followed.

Fortunately, the responsibility that TITO first insisted upon exclusively seizing for themselves, then abruptly abdicated, has been taken up by more responsible Osirans who will not abandon the region and its native community to chaos.

I'm not going through a full-on discussion of TITO's actions during the birth of Osiris because
a) I wasn't there
b) I'm not authorised to speak on behalf of TITO

I am aware of TITO's actions after Osiris was created. I wasn't around, so I can't determine whether someone was "openly hostile to others who were taking an interest in Osiris, because some of them were known raiders". If they were, that shouldn't really be a surprise. We've never pretended to be some super-impartial mega-neutral force. We've always been clear about our stance towards raiders.

My original post was simply pointing out the flaws in EW's claim that "XKI started the troubles in Osiris by their forceful intervention". Years have passed since then and a lot has happened in Osiris since then. Drawing a straight line from TITO's actions after Osiris' creation to what is happening now ignores a myriad of things which has happened in between and is about as valid as claiming that crusaders are to blame for the current refugee crisis. There may be a link but through the years, so many variables have influenced the matter that drawing that link now is simplistic at best.

As for your claim that TITO has abandoned Osiris, New Rogernomics already said the important things. It was a never our intent to colonise Osiris. An election was held, Osiris got its own government, and TITO withdrew. Osiris determined (as you said) its own alignment and leadership. And again, we've always been clear about our stance on raiders. Osiris chose to align itself with raiders, knowing full well that there would be no assistance or protection from TITO in the event of a coup. You can't blame us for the choices Osiris made.

[Evil Wolf]

And again, we've always been clear about our stance on raiders. Osiris chose to align itself with raiders, knowing full well that there would be no assistance or protection from TITO in the event of a coup. You can't blame us for the choices Osiris made.

This is also the same TITO that claimed UDL was an invader group and sent TITO Knights as ambassadors to The North Pacific because they felt the region had become too raider for their liking, and thus non-military members could not be trusted to represent TITO there. Too much raider taint, you see.

Basically, TITO's view on the outside world can be rightly summarized as such:

This paranoid world view is what motivated them to invade and attempt to subjugate intervene in Osiris to start with.

[Guy]

And again, we've always been clear about our stance on raiders. Osiris chose to align itself with raiders, knowing full well that there would be no assistance or protection from TITO in the event of a coup. You can't blame us for the choices Osiris made.

This is also the same TITO that claimed UDL was an invader group and sent TITO Knights as ambassadors to The North Pacific because they felt the region had become too raider for their liking, and thus non-military members could not be trusted to represent TITO there. Too much raider taint, you see.

I'm hardly TITO's #1 fan, but I don't think that this is a fair criticism. You always want more experienced hands for a more complex assignment. Given that 10ki-TNP relations were in turmoil due to some disagreements, primarily between 10KI and yourself, it's fair that they sought out someone more experienced.

[Evil Wolf]

I'm hardly TITO's #1 fan, but I don't think that this is a fair criticism. You always want more experienced hands for a more complex assignment. Given that 10ki-TNP relations were in turmoil due to some disagreements, primarily between 10KI and yourself, it's fair that they sought out someone more experienced.

If I recall correctly, and I do, TITO was spamming up TNP with puppets constantly moving back and forth between TNP and XKI, thus generating multiple direct links to their region, all in an effort to subvert the "No Spam" policy I had in place as Delegate. These puppets were rightly banned with the promise to unban them if the individuals simply apologized, which they never did. XKI then threw a fit and close their embassy with TNP...many months after I had already stepped down as Delegate and after my successor has rather naively and needlessly apologized to XKI. Talk about a delayed reaction.

No, TITO's motives were pretty clear. To directly quote Anime D:

For TNP, we are specifically looking for a TITO Knight as emissary. This is because TNP has many invaders in it, even some of the ex-delegates are invaders.

Yeah, I'm thinking TITO's problem was more systemic than just "We don't like that Blue Wolf character". They honestly viewed, and probably still view, TNP as a pro-raider region.

[Cormactopia II]

Congratulations to those appointed.

Agreed, good luck to all of you.

Thank you both!

[Louisistan]

What Guy said. Also - and let's be absolutely clear about this - TITO doesn't send Ambassdors anywhere. That's the Delegate's prerogative and only the delegate's prerogative. The Delegate is part of the regional government and (usually) not part of TITO Command. And as Guy has pointed out, choosing experienced players for certain, more complex, diplomatic assignments is a common practice in XKI. I have been known to do the same thing, regardless of a region's Gameplay alignment.

But yeah, XKI doesn't like raiders. You've grasped the basic concept so there's really no need to take this discussion any further. The rest of your post is the ususal hostility towards TITO that was to be expected of you, so no need to go into more detail there either.

and probably still view, TNP as a pro-raider region.

I'll thank you to not put words in my mouth or that of my regionmates.

[Guy]

One could, but one would run the risk of me laughing so hard that Max could here it down in Australia.
Took you long enough to drag us into this.

Actually, TITO took a very heavy-handed approach to the founding of Osiris, basically telling all of NationStates that the birth of Osiran government would be on their terms without any consultation with or input from other parties that had already begun investing in Osiris. In fact, it's my understanding that TITO was openly hostile to others who were taking an interest in Osiris, because some of them were known raiders. TITO then completely abandoned Osiris, to the point that TITO leadership even refused to provide assistance to the Kemetic Republic of Osiris against the July 2013 coup d'etat by The Dourian Embassy, again because Osiris' self-determined alignment and leadership were not acceptable to the ideological absolutists of TITO.

Contrast this with the political foundation of Balder, in which competition between the UDL and Europeia eventually gave way to cooperation not only between them but with others who had shown interest in Balder, and many of the people from the UDL, Europeia, etc., remained involved in Balder and invested in its future. Some of them became more invested in Balder, over the long term, than to the regions that initially brought them into Balder.

You do see very different beginnings for both regions, and you can look at the differences in how they started and see similarities between their first days and their ensuing political trajectories. I don't think it's a stretch to say that TITO could have handled the birth of Osiris better and bears some responsibility for the instability that followed.

Fortunately, the responsibility that TITO first insisted upon exclusively seizing for themselves, then abruptly abdicated, has been taken up by more responsible Osirans who will not abandon the region and its native community to chaos.

I'm not sure this is accurate. TITO's involvement in Osiris was always upon the premise that it will organise elections, and pass on the region to whoever won those.

I do not believe there was any restrictions as to the choice of candidates, nor did electors face any restrictions. The rules were applied evenly to anyone.

What was problematic with TITO's involvement is that, while equally fair (or unfair) to everyone, the manner in which they conducted the election at times fell short of best practice. There was a (neutral) ballot collector (AMOM, I believe?), and you had to be WA in Osiris to participate.

[Pergamon]

Congratultions! o/

[Tim-Opolis]

Any chance you folks could take the whole TITO/TNP/UDL mess to a different thread now that it's evolved past Osiris-founding stuff, which even then was a stretch in being relevant to the present state of the Osiris Fraternal Order.

Happy to see order restored to the region, though.

[The Ghost of Festavo]

Kyorgia brought this up earlier, but he was promptly ignored. I am going to assume you did not see his post and just bring this up again. During the campaign for Pharaoh you asked every candidate if they would nominate anybody serving a punishment for Predator usage as Scribe of War. It should be noted that you very clearly did not want a former Predator user as Scribe of War. I believe you may have said it could make or break your support for a candidate even. I would go find a link to this, but it appears that those threads have been either deleted or hidden.

Your nominee for Scribe of War is Kothles. Koth is very qualified. I will not dispute that. The issue I have is that he is currently serving a punishment for using Predator. You have made it very clear in the past that you find the concept of a former Predator user being Scribe of War while serving a punishment to be wrong or dishonorable or something like that. Why this change of heart?

[Pierconium]

Kyorgia brought this up earlier, but he was promptly ignored. I am going to assume you did not see his post and just bring this up again. During the campaign for Pharaoh you asked every candidate if they would nominate anybody serving a punishment for Predator usage as Scribe of War. It should be noted that you very clearly did not want a former Predator user as Scribe of War. I believe you may have said it could make or break your support for a candidate even. I would go find a link to this, but it appears that those threads have been either deleted or hidden.

Your nominee for Scribe of War is Kothles. Koth is very qualified. I will not dispute that. The issue I have is that he is currently serving a punishment for using Predator. You have made it very clear in the past that you find the concept of a former Predator user being Scribe of War while serving a punishment to be wrong or dishonorable or something like that. Why this change of heart?

Obviously, not seeing the posts myself I can not state anything definitive about what Cormac might have said, but for myself, I see a difference between those at the very top of the punishment list and those towards the bottom. Many of those at the top filed GHRs with admin explaining their usage and assisted in the overall resolution (I believe). I think there are several nations on that list that were a party to Predator without knowledge of its legal status and once it was revealed came clean about it.

Ignorance is not a defense, to be sure, but the differentiation in severity of punishment should be a consideration before we as a community decide to blacklist certain individuals. At least, that is my opinion as an outside observer.

[The Ghost of Festavo]

Kyorgia brought this up earlier, but he was promptly ignored. I am going to assume you did not see his post and just bring this up again. During the campaign for Pharaoh you asked every candidate if they would nominate anybody serving a punishment for Predator usage as Scribe of War. It should be noted that you very clearly did not want a former Predator user as Scribe of War. I believe you may have said it could make or break your support for a candidate even. I would go find a link to this, but it appears that those threads have been either deleted or hidden.

Your nominee for Scribe of War is Kothles. Koth is very qualified. I will not dispute that. The issue I have is that he is currently serving a punishment for using Predator. You have made it very clear in the past that you find the concept of a former Predator user being Scribe of War while serving a punishment to be wrong or dishonorable or something like that. Why this change of heart?

Obviously, not seeing the posts myself I can not state anything definitive about what Cormac might have said, but for myself, I see a difference between those at the very top of the punishment list and those towards the bottom. Many of those at the top filed GHRs with admin explaining their usage and assisted in the overall resolution (I believe). I think there are several nations on that list that were a party to Predator without knowledge of its legal status and once it was revealed came clean about it.

Ignorance is not a defense, to be sure, but the differentiation in severity of punishment should be a consideration before we as a community decide to blacklist certain individuals. At least, that is my opinion as an outside observer.

I am asking Cormac about why he seems to have had a change of heart. He did specify top of the list or bottom. He very clearly did not want any person associated with predator to be Scribe of War until their punishment was up at least.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Perhaps he meant only users after Halcones' DOS? Koth hasn't used it since TBR.

[The Ghost of Festavo]

Perhaps he meant only users after Halcones' DOS? Koth hasn't used it since TBR.

He made it pretty clear that anybody serving a sentence for using predator should not be Scribe of War. Cut and dry. I guess he felt that if the mods saw it as wrong enough for the user to serve a sentence then that person should not be SoW or Vizier.

[Pierconium]

Perhaps he meant only users after Halcones' DOS? Koth hasn't used it since TBR.

He made it pretty clear that anybody serving a sentence for using predator should not be Scribe of War. Cut and dry. I guess he felt that if the mods saw it as wrong enough for the user to serve a sentence then that person should not be SoW or Vizier.

Maybe he just changed his mind? I dare say it would not be the first instance of him doing so...